Guest guest Posted November 20, 2008 Report Share Posted November 20, 2008 Z'ev, >In general, with > chemotherapy, the first thing to go is yin qi, but then the yang is > damaged. This is interesting to me. Most of the reading I've done on cancer and TCM lists spleen and stomach damage as the primary manifestation of chemo. Your experience is different? Most of the books I read were in Chinese and they treat cancer somewhat differently in China than in the US. Also, I don't have much clinical experience besides what I observed in China. The doc I studied with would use sha shen, wu wei zi, and mai men dong a lot and call it Sheng Mai San for cancer patients (he said sha shen supplemented qi). But 99% of patients got ji nei jin, shen qu, shan zha, mai ya, and bai zhu, all to " strengthen the spleen " as he put it. Carl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 20, 2008 Report Share Posted November 20, 2008 Carl, The extent of damage is based on time after chemo, type and severity of cancer, the patient's constitution, dosage and length of chemo treatment, and several other variables, all of which need to be factored in when considering treatment. The immediate effects of chemo are usually damage to spleen and stomach, but then the spleen's ability to transform blood is effected, so blood vacuity and/or stasis ensues. Sometimes there is hot toxin damaging yin qi. However, long-term, I find that patients get colder and colder and the yang qi is damaged. I hope this is adequate. This is a very complex topic that requires more than a few lines in an e-mail to discuss properly. On Nov 20, 2008, at 7:53 AM, carlstimson wrote: > Z'ev, > > >In general, with > > chemotherapy, the first thing to go is yin qi, but then the yang is > > damaged. > > This is interesting to me. Most of the reading I've done on cancer and > TCM lists spleen and stomach damage as the primary manifestation of > chemo. Your experience is different? > > Most of the books I read were in Chinese and they treat cancer > somewhat differently in China than in the US. Also, I don't have much > clinical experience besides what I observed in China. > > The doc I studied with would use sha shen, wu wei zi, and mai men dong > a lot and call it Sheng Mai San for cancer patients (he said sha shen > supplemented qi). But 99% of patients got ji nei jin, shen qu, shan > zha, mai ya, and bai zhu, all to " strengthen the spleen " as he put it. > > Carl > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2008 Report Share Posted November 21, 2008 These are good questions Z'ev, If I could offer up a few observations to do with this case.. Oct 06 diagnosed with breast cancer in right breast, underwent 4 months of chemo which included 8 series of treatments, double masectomy performed. lymph nodes removed on right upper arm. Put on Tamoxofen(estrogen blocker) for a period of 5 years. Nov 07 she received a hysterectomy(laparascopic) including the ovaries " because the lining of my uterus was thickening " after which time her hot flashes began. She is 34 years old with 3 children under 10. Her tongue is dry, red spots all over, some teeth marks, slight white coating and slightly swollen. central crack in mid tongue area. Pulse rate is slow, irregular, full and wiry on St position, Lu and Pc weak, but overall I felt that the pulse didn't reveal too many secrets here. Next time I will try to concentrate better. Also......frequent pain behind the eyes " like a knife sticking in " , weak knees, feeling of something stuck in throat area around St 9, lack of energy around midday-1pm. Her hot flashes are short and strong, don't know yet where they originate. severity of cancer?..don't fully know yet . Do you think it a possibility that along with the appearant yin xu-....... the pituitary gland has as one of its functions the responsibility to communicate with the ovaries, let them know the cycle of the moon in which they operate and when to start secreting estrogen etc. The pituitary does this through the production of FSH. Along comes the surgeon and removes the ovaries...with the resultant lack of estrogen, the pituitary works extra hard to produce more and more FSH and in so doing creates HEAT, which in turn produces Hot Flashes! Any validity to this? rgds, Simon : zrosenbe: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 10:27:06 -0800Re: Hotflashes-chemotherapy Carl,The extent of damage is based on time after chemo, type and severity of cancer, the patient's constitution, dosage and length of chemo treatment, and several other variables, all of which need to be factored in when considering treatment.The immediate effects of chemo are usually damage to spleen and stomach, but then the spleen's ability to transform blood is effected, so blood vacuity and/or stasis ensues. Sometimes there is hot toxin damaging yin qi. However, long-term, I find that patients get colder and colder and the yang qi is damaged.I hope this is adequate. This is a very complex topic that requires more than a few lines in an e-mail to discuss properly.On Nov 20, 2008, at 7:53 AM, carlstimson wrote:> Z'ev,>> >In general, with> > chemotherapy, the first thing to go is yin qi, but then the yang is> > damaged.>> This is interesting to me. Most of the reading I've done on cancer and> TCM lists spleen and stomach damage as the primary manifestation of> chemo. Your experience is different?>> Most of the books I read were in Chinese and they treat cancer> somewhat differently in China than in the US. Also, I don't have much> clinical experience besides what I observed in China.>> The doc I studied with would use sha shen, wu wei zi, and mai men dong> a lot and call it Sheng Mai San for cancer patients (he said sha shen> supplemented qi). But 99% of patients got ji nei jin, shen qu, shan> zha, mai ya, and bai zhu, all to " strengthen the spleen " as he put it.>> Carl>>> Chair, Department of Herbal MedicinePacific College of Oriental MedicineSan Diego, Ca. 92122[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2008 Report Share Posted November 21, 2008 Simon, This is fairly in-depth, thank you. So much so, that I'm going to take a few days and think about this case and get back to you. If you need to remind me again, please do, in the meantime others may want to contribute. . On Nov 20, 2008, at 7:35 PM, Simon Cairns wrote: > > These are good questions Z'ev, > > If I could offer up a few observations to do with this case.. > > Oct 06 diagnosed with breast cancer in right breast, underwent 4 > months of chemo which included 8 series of treatments, double > masectomy performed. > lymph nodes removed on right upper arm. Put on Tamoxofen(estrogen > blocker) for a period of 5 years. > Nov 07 she received a hysterectomy(laparascopic) including the ovaries > " because the lining of my uterus was thickening " after which time > her hot flashes began. > > She is 34 years old with 3 children under 10. > Her tongue is dry, red spots all over, some teeth marks, slight > white coating and slightly swollen. central crack in mid tongue area. > Pulse rate is slow, irregular, full and wiry on St position, Lu and > Pc weak, but overall I felt that the pulse didn't reveal too many > secrets here. Next time I will try to concentrate better. > Also......frequent pain behind the eyes " like a knife sticking in " , > weak knees, feeling of something stuck in throat area around St 9, > lack of energy around midday-1pm. > > Her hot flashes are short and strong, don't know yet where they > originate. severity of cancer?..don't fully know yet . > > Do you think it a possibility that along with the appearant yin > xu-....... > > the pituitary gland has as one of its functions the responsibility > to communicate with the ovaries, let them know the cycle of the moon > in which they operate and when to start secreting estrogen etc. The > pituitary does this through the production of FSH. Along comes the > surgeon and removes the ovaries...with the resultant lack of > estrogen, the pituitary works extra hard to produce more and more > FSH and in so doing creates HEAT, which in turn produces Hot Flashes! > > Any validity to this? > > rgds, > > Simon > > > > > > : zrosenbe > : Thu, 20 Nov 2008 10:27:06 -0800Re: Hotflashes- > chemotherapy > > Carl,The extent of damage is based on time after chemo, type and > severity of cancer, the patient's constitution, dosage and length of > chemo treatment, and several other variables, all of which need to > be factored in when considering treatment.The immediate effects of > chemo are usually damage to spleen and stomach, but then the > spleen's ability to transform blood is effected, so blood vacuity > and/or stasis ensues. Sometimes there is hot toxin damaging yin qi. > However, long-term, I find that patients get colder and colder and > the yang qi is damaged.I hope this is adequate. This is a very > complex topic that requires more than a few lines in an e-mail to > discuss properly.On Nov 20, 2008, at 7:53 AM, > carlstimson wrote:> Z'ev,>> >In general, with> > chemotherapy, the > first thing to go is yin qi, but then the yang is> > damaged.>> This > is interesting to me. Most of the reading I've done on cancer and> > TCM lists spleen and stomach damage as the primary manifestation of> > chemo. Your experience is different?>> Most of the books I read were > in Chinese and they treat cancer> somewhat differently in China than > in the US. Also, I don't have much> clinical experience besides what > I observed in China.>> The doc I studied with would use sha shen, wu > wei zi, and mai men dong> a lot and call it Sheng Mai San for cancer > patients (he said sha shen> supplemented qi). But 99% of patients > got ji nei jin, shen qu, shan> zha, mai ya, and bai zhu, all to > " strengthen the spleen " as he put it.>> Carl>>> , L. > Ac.Chair, Department of Herbal MedicinePacific College of Oriental > MedicineSan Diego, Ca. 92122[Non-text portions of this message have > been removed] > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2008 Report Share Posted November 22, 2008 Z'ev, Thanks for the reply. Indeed it is a complex subject, but every different perspective helps put a little more detail into the picture. Carl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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