Guest guest Posted November 15, 2008 Report Share Posted November 15, 2008 I have a patient coming in tomorrow with gall stones. I will, of course, treat her according to her pattern, which I don't know yet... but I am wondering what sort of luck people have had with gall stones and if anyone has any advice. Any favorite stone points or herbs? Thanks! Ariel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 16, 2008 Report Share Posted November 16, 2008 Hi Ariel, I have done a Gallbladder flush in the past, and it changed my life. I felt like a new person. Gallstones are easily flushed, but if one tries to flush the stones when they are too large they can get lodged in the bile duct and cause major problems. So it's best to prepare with herbs first. You may suggest that they get an ultrasound to determine the size of the stones. There are many strategies to flushing stones, the following is what I did personally. The pre-flush cleanse: -Limited oil intake -Ate several apples a day and drank non-filtered, non-pastuerized apple juice -took two foil packets of Xiao Chai Hu Tang per day -took Artichoke extract and Milk Thistle extract -regularly drank peppermint tea The flush: To do the flush, you will need 4 Tbls of epsom salts, 2-3 lemons,1/2 Cup of extra virgin olive oil -Have an extremely low fat breakfast and lunch. -No food is to be eaten after 2:00. -Mix the epsom salts with 3 cups of cold water and separate into 4 servings. (Apple juice can be used for taste.) -Drink the servings at 6pm, 8pm, upon awaking the next morning, and two hours after waking. -At 10pm, juice the lemons and mix with the olive oil (you may want to use a jar with a lid so you can shake it to mix it well), drink it all down. Go straight to bed and lie on your right side. Stones will pass in the morning. The patient may feel sick at sometime in the night. At this point they should avoid the urge to vommit. They will pass bowel several times and eventually they will see pea-green particles in the stool, there may be hundreds. After the flush the patient will likely feel depleted for about two days. Encourage them to eat congee, nourishing soups, and other easy to digest foods, maybe even take Spleen tonics. When I did the flush, it took two days to recover my strength but after that my digestion improved dramatically and my immunity improved as well. Acupuncture: support the liver, spleen, and gallbladder. Check the gall bladder channel for reactivity, especially around GB 34 and slightly distal to it. Maybe give them the ole TW 6, GB 34 combo. Good luck, Zach Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2008 Report Share Posted November 17, 2008 Zach, Although this cleanse may have changed your life, I do not think the things that come out are actually gall stones. These " Stones " are produced by the olive oil etc. -Jason Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of znelms Saturday, November 15, 2008 11:55 PM Chinese Medicine Re: gall stones Hi Ariel, I have done a Gallbladder flush in the past, and it changed my life. I felt like a new person. Gallstones are easily flushed, but if one tries to flush the stones when they are too large they can get lodged in the bile duct and cause major problems. So it's best to prepare with herbs first. You may suggest that they get an ultrasound to determine the size of the stones. There are many strategies to flushing stones, the following is what I did personally. The pre-flush cleanse: -Limited oil intake -Ate several apples a day and drank non-filtered, non-pastuerized apple juice -took two foil packets of Xiao Chai Hu Tang per day -took Artichoke extract and Milk Thistle extract -regularly drank peppermint tea The flush: To do the flush, you will need 4 Tbls of epsom salts, 2-3 lemons,1/2 Cup of extra virgin olive oil -Have an extremely low fat breakfast and lunch. -No food is to be eaten after 2:00. -Mix the epsom salts with 3 cups of cold water and separate into 4 servings. (Apple juice can be used for taste.) -Drink the servings at 6pm, 8pm, upon awaking the next morning, and two hours after waking. -At 10pm, juice the lemons and mix with the olive oil (you may want to use a jar with a lid so you can shake it to mix it well), drink it all down. Go straight to bed and lie on your right side. Stones will pass in the morning. The patient may feel sick at sometime in the night. At this point they should avoid the urge to vommit. They will pass bowel several times and eventually they will see pea-green particles in the stool, there may be hundreds. After the flush the patient will likely feel depleted for about two days. Encourage them to eat congee, nourishing soups, and other easy to digest foods, maybe even take Spleen tonics. When I did the flush, it took two days to recover my strength but after that my digestion improved dramatically and my immunity improved as well. Acupuncture: support the liver, spleen, and gallbladder. Check the gall bladder channel for reactivity, especially around GB 34 and slightly distal to it. Maybe give them the ole TW 6, GB 34 combo. Good luck, Zach Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.4/1792 - Release 11/16/2008 10:04 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 2008 Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 Jason, What makes you so sure? Z Chinese Medicine , " " wrote: > > Zach, > > > > Although this cleanse may have changed your life, I do not think the things > that come out are actually gall stones. These " Stones " are produced by the > olive oil etc. > > > > -Jason > > > > Chinese Medicine > Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of znelms > Saturday, November 15, 2008 11:55 PM > Chinese Medicine > Re: gall stones > > > > Hi Ariel, > I have done a Gallbladder flush in the past, and it changed my life. I > felt like a new person. > > Gallstones are easily flushed, but if one tries to flush the stones > when they are too large they can get lodged in the bile duct and cause > major problems. So it's best to prepare with herbs first. You may > suggest that they get an ultrasound to determine the size of the stones. > There are many strategies to flushing stones, the following is what I > did personally. > > The pre-flush cleanse: > -Limited oil intake > -Ate several apples a day and drank non-filtered, non-pastuerized apple > juice > -took two foil packets of Xiao Chai Hu Tang per day > -took Artichoke extract and Milk Thistle extract > -regularly drank peppermint tea > > The flush: > To do the flush, you will need 4 Tbls of epsom salts, 2-3 lemons,1/2 > Cup of extra virgin olive oil > > -Have an extremely low fat breakfast and lunch. > -No food is to be eaten after 2:00. > -Mix the epsom salts with 3 cups of cold water and separate into 4 > servings. (Apple juice can be used for taste.) > -Drink the servings at 6pm, 8pm, upon awaking the next morning, and two > hours after waking. > -At 10pm, juice the lemons and mix with the olive oil (you may want to > use a jar with a lid so you can shake it to mix it well), drink it all > down. Go straight to bed and lie on your right side. Stones will pass > in the morning. > > The patient may feel sick at sometime in the night. At this point they > should avoid the urge to vommit. They will pass bowel several times > and eventually they will see pea-green particles in the stool, there > may be hundreds. After the flush the patient will likely feel depleted > for about two days. Encourage them to eat congee, nourishing soups, > and other easy to digest foods, maybe even take Spleen tonics. When I > did the flush, it took two days to recover my strength but after that > my digestion improved dramatically and my immunity improved as well. > > Acupuncture: support the liver, spleen, and gallbladder. Check the > gall bladder channel for reactivity, especially around GB 34 and > slightly distal to it. Maybe give them the ole TW 6, GB 34 combo. > > Good luck, > Zach > > > > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.4/1792 - Release Date: 11/16/2008 > 10:04 AM > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 2008 Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 I have a special interest in gallstones, having had them myself. I found this article from Subhuti Dharmananda incredibly informative and helpful: http://www.itmonline.org/arts/gallstones.htm I have had several bouts of pancreatitis that the doctors are sure must be caused by gallstones, although this has never been proved, except that ultra-sound scans show lots of very small gallstones. I am not at all convinced by the Western medical view that taking the gallbladder out is the only way of getting rid of gallstones. I would like to see more research done on why we get them in the first place, and Subhuti Dharmananda has told me that as a vegetarian Shiatsu practitioner I am a prime candidate, mainly because the exercise I get is not aerobic and I probably have eaten far too much dairy. I think the flushing method is dangerous to do by oneself - if it works it could flush out small gallstones that could get stuck, and I suspect that the green " lumps " are caused by the oil and apples etc. My pancreatitis occurred before I studied acupuncture and herbs, and I had been a Shiatsu practitioner for four years. My immediate reaction was to treat it by changing my diet - I went to a nutritional therapist who advised me to cut out dairy and so many other things that I got very depressed and I still had some attacks of pancreatitis. I remained conscious of my diet, which was not unhealthy in the first place, but I then went to a highly respected Chinese herbal doctor who diagnosed Spleen/Pancreas deficiency as being the cause of my trouble. He tonified that and worked on softening and shrinking the gallstones. The main problem was that he wanted me to have scans to check the progress but NHS doctors in the UK obviously would not put me forward for a scan on the recommendation of a Chinese doctor, and private scans are prohibitively expensive here. I still had several attacks of pancreatitis in the year that I was taking the herbs so I eventually discontinued the treatment. It had helped greatly, but we seemed to have reached a plateau. I believe these " attacks " are when gallstones are coming out, so that has to be good, as long as I am not still making more. I am now having regular monthly Shiatsu treatments and attending Qi Gong classes every week and the attacks have been much milder. Although I generally avoid heavy dairy and large meals I don't have any digestive problems at all now, nor any gallstone pain. I have researched the quantum mind body approach and now I seem to have changed up several gears and changed my whole way of thinking and my approach to my health and that of my clients. I am using meditation and visualisation for myself. I know this is no easy answer, but I am getting there, and I am writing a book about my experiences which are far to complex to summarise here. I hope it adds to the debate, though, and I would be most interested in feedback. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 2008 Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 Hold on there partner. How long do you imagine it would take for olive oil to form " stones " in the body? Do you think in a matter of hours? Also, having done the flush myself, some of what's passed can come in the form of calcified marbles, brownish in color. I remember reading the report of an incredulous individual who actually had his " olive oil extracts " sent off for analysis... Well, it seems that these extracts bore remarkable similarity to gallstones. It's unlikely that the body could form these things in the matter of hours. y.c. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 2008 Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 Y.C., I have done the flush also. I had maybe 50+ " stones " come out. At the time I was 22 at the time and it is very very unlikely I had real stones - I had no symptoms nor do I fit the profile. Furthermore, after pushing on them they are somewhat soft and do not resemble the consistency of a real gallstone. I do not have the time to get into this, but there is a biochemical reaction that occurs from the ingredients to create these in the body. I researched this heavily about 15 years ago. These are not gallstones and they do form quickly. I am sure you can find it on the internet. Furthermore, I know many others with the same story. Actually everyone that I know that has done the cleanse claims they get stones out (or something). This further confirms to me that these are not stones. I also know people that have sent these off to a lab and they were not stones. I would like to see a report that states otherwise. As you say, some people sent these off to the lab had things that are " remarkably similar. " This does not confirm to me that these are gallstones. Maybe in your case an actual stones passed, this is possible if it was on small enough and ready to go. But I know plenty of people with real gallstones that had these " fake stones " come out only later to go get ultrasounds and the stones were still there. So I would like to see some proof before I buy into this one. Since this " treatment " has been around for quite some time, show us some research that shows before and after ultrasounds and the reductions of stones. I think the burden of proof is on people that claim these are stones. -Jason Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Yangchu Higgins Tuesday, November 18, 2008 7:17 AM Chinese Medicine Re: gall stones Hold on there partner. How long do you imagine it would take for olive oil to form " stones " in the body? Do you think in a matter of hours? Also, having done the flush myself, some of what's passed can come in the form of calcified marbles, brownish in color. I remember reading the report of an incredulous individual who actually had his " olive oil extracts " sent off for analysis... Well, it seems that these extracts bore remarkable similarity to gallstones. It's unlikely that the body could form these things in the matter of hours. y.c. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.4/1795 - Release 11/17/2008 5:24 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 2008 Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 DON'T FALL FOR THE OLIVE OIL GALL BLADDER FLUSH The Lancet Volume 365, Number 9468 16 April 2005 Could these be Gallstones? A 40-year-old woman was referred to the outpatient clinic with a 3-month history of recurrent severe right hypochondrial pain after fatty food. Abdominal ultrasound showed multiple 1-2 mm gallstones in the gallbladder. She had recently followed a " liver cleansing " regime on the advice of a herbalist. This regime consisted of free intake of apple and vegetable juice until 1800 h, but no food, followed by the consumption of 600 mL of olive oil and 300 mL of lemon juice over several hours. This activity resulted in the painless passage of multiple semisolid green " stones " per rectum in the early hours of the next morning. She collected them, stored them in the freezer, and presented them in the clinic (figure). Figure: Semi-solid green " stones " passed per rectum (top) and surgically removed cholesterol gallstones (bottom) (clickk on URL to see picture) Microscopic examination of our patient's stones revealed that they lacked any crystalline structure, melted to an oily green liquid after 10 min at 40oC, and contained no cholesterol, bilirubin, or calcium by established wet chemical methods.1 Traditional faecal fat extraction techniques2 indicated that the stones contained fatty acids that required acid hydrolysis to give free fatty acids before extraction into ether. These fatty acids accounted for 75% of the original material. Experimentation revealed that mixing equal volumes of oleic acid (the major component of olive oil) and lemon juice produced several semi solid white balls after the addition of a small volume of a potassium <http://www.netrition.com/potassium_page.html> hydroxide solution. On air drying at room temperature, these balls became quite solid and hard. We conclude, therefore, that these green " stones " resulted from the action of gastric lipases on the simple and mixed triacylglycerols that make up olive oil, yielding long chain carboxylic acids (mainly oleic acid). This process was followed by saponification into large insoluble micelles of potassium carboxylates (lemon juice contains a high concentration of potassium) or " soap stones " . The cholesterol stones noted on ultrasound were removed by surgery (figure). A search of the internet reveals many health websites promoting so-called " gall-bladder flushing " or " liver cleansing " regimes. Some quote a Correspondence letter published in The Lancet3 on the subject. The 1-day purge usually consists of an overnight fast, then eating apples in the morning, taking only herbal tea through the day, and then in the evening a warm mixture of olive oil (2/3 cup) and fresh lemon juice (1/3 cup). Patients are instructed to then lie on the right side (although some say the left). It is claimed that the next morning the gallstones will pass in the stool. We have shown that these flushing regimes for expelling gallstones are a myth, and that the claims made by some are misleading. The appearance of a letter in an establishment journal has been used to legitimise this practice for some time and the record should now be set straight. We declare that we have no conflict of interest. *Christiaan W Sies, Jim Brooker Clinical Biochemistry Unit, Canterbury Health Laboratories, PO Box 151, Christchurch, New Zealand (CWS); and Gastroenterology Department, Waikato Hospital, Hamilton, New Zealand (JB) 1 Steen G, Blijenberg BG. Chemical analysis of gallstones. Eur J Clin Chem Clin Biochem 1991; 29: 801-04. [PubMed] 2 Varley H. Practical clinical biochemistry, 4th edn. London: Whitfriars Press, 1967. 3 Dekkers R. Apple juice and the chemical-contact softening of gallstones. Lancet 1999; 354: 2171. I don't know why people feel better after doing the gall bladder flush. Probably because they don't have stones at all, and maybe the flush helped with sluggish digestion. My MIL almost killed her husband with it. They kept doing the olive oil flush, and kept getting green stones out, but he never got better, and he got more yellow and more yellow as the bilirubin built up in his body, and he ended up with an emergency surgery to remove a large gall stone that had lodged in the pancreatic duct. This gall stone looked like the bottom stones in the picture on the web site. My MIL continually doing the bogus olive oil flush only served to postpone the right treatment for gall stones. This went on for literallly MONTHS while my S-FIL was getting sicker and sicker. Everyone has to make up their own minds about this, and can believe what they want to believe. Personally, I think the olive oil gall bladder flush is dangerous. Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of znelms Monday, November 17, 2008 11:43 PM Chinese Medicine Re: gall stones Jason, What makes you so sure? Z Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> , " " wrote: > > Zach, > > > > Although this cleanse may have changed your life, I do not think the things > that come out are actually gall stones. These " Stones " are produced by the > olive oil etc. > > > > -Jason > > > > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> > [Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> ] On Behalf Of znelms > Saturday, November 15, 2008 11:55 PM > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> > Re: gall stones > > > > Hi Ariel, > I have done a Gallbladder flush in the past, and it changed my life. I > felt like a new person. > > Gallstones are easily flushed, but if one tries to flush the stones > when they are too large they can get lodged in the bile duct and cause > major problems. So it's best to prepare with herbs first. You may > suggest that they get an ultrasound to determine the size of the stones. > There are many strategies to flushing stones, the following is what I > did personally. > > The pre-flush cleanse: > -Limited oil intake > -Ate several apples a day and drank non-filtered, non-pastuerized apple > juice > -took two foil packets of Xiao Chai Hu Tang per day > -took Artichoke extract and Milk Thistle extract > -regularly drank peppermint tea > > The flush: > To do the flush, you will need 4 Tbls of epsom salts, 2-3 lemons,1/2 > Cup of extra virgin olive oil > > -Have an extremely low fat breakfast and lunch. > -No food is to be eaten after 2:00. > -Mix the epsom salts with 3 cups of cold water and separate into 4 > servings. (Apple juice can be used for taste.) > -Drink the servings at 6pm, 8pm, upon awaking the next morning, and two > hours after waking. > -At 10pm, juice the lemons and mix with the olive oil (you may want to > use a jar with a lid so you can shake it to mix it well), drink it all > down. Go straight to bed and lie on your right side. Stones will pass > in the morning. > > The patient may feel sick at sometime in the night. At this point they > should avoid the urge to vommit. They will pass bowel several times > and eventually they will see pea-green particles in the stool, there > may be hundreds. After the flush the patient will likely feel depleted > for about two days. Encourage them to eat congee, nourishing soups, > and other easy to digest foods, maybe even take Spleen tonics. When I > did the flush, it took two days to recover my strength but after that > my digestion improved dramatically and my immunity improved as well. > > Acupuncture: support the liver, spleen, and gallbladder. Check the > gall bladder channel for reactivity, especially around GB 34 and > slightly distal to it. Maybe give them the ole TW 6, GB 34 combo. > > Good luck, > Zach > > > > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.4/1792 - Release Date: 11/16/2008 > 10:04 AM > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2008 Report Share Posted November 19, 2008 Jason, you are correct, these are not stones. Furthermore, according to Journal of Ultrasound in Medicine, Vol 19, Issue 11 727-730, The diameter of the common bile duct is less than 6-7 millimeters in 98% of people. For people aged 60 or less the mean is 3.6mm (+/-.2). That's about 0.14 inches. If stones are larger than the duct then they won't expel. If you engage in a therapy designed to eject gall stones, and the stones are of similar size to the common bile duct, you can cause an EMERGENCY gall bladder situation. If the flush works, and you didn't use ultra-sonography to measure stone sizes and duct diameter, then you are screaming for a malpractice suit. This would indeed be malpractice, as it is grossly negligent. I think there is benefit to these flushes, as most of us probably have " sludge " in our gall bladders due to sluggish function and over-consumption of rich foods. This is exactly the type of scenario that would benefit from a flush. As Jason sited in the JAMA article, the expulsion of giant " stones " has been debunked by modern medicine, but who cares. Validity of the therapy doesn't rest solely on whether or not those are stones, it's in the alleviation of symptoms. -Tim Sharpe Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Jason Tuesday, November 18, 2008 10:04 AM Chinese Medicine RE: Re: gall stones DON'T FALL FOR THE OLIVE OIL GALL BLADDER FLUSH The Lancet Volume 365, Number 9468 16 April 2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2008 Report Share Posted November 19, 2008 It may be true that GB flushes alleviate symptoms, but they need to be specifically defined, and the therapy needs to be based on some truth other than actual stones being eliminated. This is one myth that only does damage to the reputation of our profession (it has never been a part of Chinese medicine per se), and as you point out, much potential damage can be done by it. On Nov 18, 2008, at 9:17 PM, Tim Sharpe wrote: > Jason, you are correct, these are not stones. Furthermore, according > to > Journal of Ultrasound in Medicine, Vol 19, Issue 11 727-730, The > diameter of > the common bile duct is less than 6-7 millimeters in 98% of people. > For > people aged 60 or less the mean is 3.6mm (+/-.2). That's about 0.14 > inches. > If stones are larger than the duct then they won't expel. If you > engage in > a therapy designed to eject gall stones, and the stones are of > similar size > to the common bile duct, you can cause an EMERGENCY gall bladder > situation. > If the flush works, and you didn't use ultra-sonography to measure > stone > sizes and duct diameter, then you are screaming for a malpractice > suit. > This would indeed be malpractice, as it is grossly negligent. > > I think there is benefit to these flushes, as most of us probably have > " sludge " in our gall bladders due to sluggish function and over- > consumption > of rich foods. This is exactly the type of scenario that would > benefit from > a flush. As Jason sited in the JAMA article, the expulsion of giant > " stones " has been debunked by modern medicine, but who cares. > Validity of > the therapy doesn't rest solely on whether or not those are stones, > it's in > the alleviation of symptoms. > > -Tim Sharpe > > > Chinese Medicine > Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of > Jason > > Tuesday, November 18, 2008 10:04 AM > Chinese Medicine > RE: Re: gall stones > > DON'T FALL FOR THE OLIVE OIL GALL BLADDER FLUSH > > The Lancet Volume 365, Number 9468 16 April 2005 > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2008 Report Share Posted November 19, 2008 bravo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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