Guest guest Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 Does anyone have any experience in dealing with hot flashes post hysterectomy? Thanks, Simon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 14, 2008 Report Share Posted November 14, 2008 same as any other etiology: do a differential diagnosis and tx the presenting patterns. kath On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 1:52 PM, Simon <SimonBethel wrote: > Does anyone have any experience in dealing with hot flashes post > hysterectomy? > Thanks, > Simon > > > -- Kath Bartlett, LAc, MS, BA UCLA Oriental Medicine Experienced, Dedicated, Effective Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & joints Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist Available at Asheville Center for : www.FlyingDragonLiniment.com & from the following suppliers: Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1 Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC http://www.goldenneedleonline.com/index.php?page=categories & category=14 & vendor= & \ product=5554 & pg= Asheville Center For 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 kbartlett www.AcupunctureAsheville.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 16, 2008 Report Share Posted November 16, 2008 Thanks Kath,I did do that and came up with Spleen xu causing damp heat especially in the St. She had undergone chemo for breast cancer and had a double masectomy in Oct 06 also. But in treating this damp heat am I not leaving out, treating the fact that she no longer has ovaries/ hormones that up till recently helped to regulate her internal temperature. I have used points to dispel the heat and damp and she is sleeping better but I feel that I am not treating the root cause.Simon : acukath: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 15:48:18 -0500Re: TCM - Hotflashes same as any other etiology: do a differential diagnosis and tx the presenting patterns. kath On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 1:52 PM, Simon <SimonBethel wrote: > Does anyone have any experience in dealing with hot flashes post > hysterectomy? > Thanks, > Simon > > > -- Kath Bartlett, LAc, MS, BA UCLA Oriental Medicine Experienced, Dedicated, Effective Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & joints Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist Available at Asheville Center for : www.FlyingDragonLiniment.com & from the following suppliers: Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1 Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC http://www.goldenneedleonline.com/index.php?page=categories & category=14 & vendor= & \ product=5554 & pg= Asheville Center For 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 kbartlett www.AcupunctureAsheville.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2008 Report Share Posted November 17, 2008 in my clinical experience, hot flashes always involve yin xu fire. if you are not nourishing yin and clearing xu heat, that is likely the reason you are not seeing the results you seek. kath On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 7:22 PM, Simon Cairns <SimonBethel wrote: > > Thanks Kath,I did do that and came up with Spleen xu causing damp heat > especially in the St. She had undergone chemo for breast cancer and had a > double masectomy in Oct 06 also. But in treating this damp heat am I not > leaving out, treating the fact that she no longer has ovaries/ hormones that > up till recently helped to regulate her internal temperature. I have used > points to dispel the heat and damp and she is sleeping better but I feel > that I am not treating the root cause.Simon To: > Chinese Medicine<Chinese Medicine%40\ From>: > acukath <acukath%40gmail.comDate>: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 15:48:18 > -0500Re: Hotflashes > > > same as any other etiology: do a differential diagnosis and tx the > presenting patterns. > > kath > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 1:52 PM, Simon <SimonBethel<SimonBethel%40msn.com>> > wrote: > > > Does anyone have any experience in dealing with hot flashes post > > hysterectomy? > > Thanks, > > Simon > > > > > > > > -- > > Oriental Medicine > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective > > Flying Dragon Liniment: > Effective pain relief for muscles & joints > Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist > Available at Asheville Center for : > www.FlyingDragonLiniment.com > > & from the following suppliers: > Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown > https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1 > > Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC > > http://www.goldenneedleonline.com/index.php?page=categories & category=14 & vendor= & \ product=5554 & pg= > > Asheville Center For > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two > Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 > kbartlett <kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com> > www.AcupunctureAsheville.com > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 2008 Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 Sounds like one of those yin fire type scenarios... with damp-heat from Sp/St dysfunction, along with yin deficiency and ministerial fire not following a natural course.... Maybe Pi/Wei lun school... There's a modification in the Blue Poppy " Treatise on the Spleen and Stomach " for this scenario w/ yin def. heat... Bu zhong yi qi tang modified : Huang qi, Ren shen, Bai zhu, Dang gui, Chen pi, Zhi gan cao, (no Chai hu or Sheng ma) Shan zhu yu, Shan yao, Shu di huang, Di gu pi, Zhi mu, Huang bai .... Funny thing is that Sheng ma is black cohosh (used for hot flashes), but it also directs Qi upwards. Have people out there gotten good results from using Black cohosh? Best of luck, K. Chai hu, Sheng ma (reduced dosages or eliminate) On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 10:05 AM, wrote: > in my clinical experience, hot flashes always involve yin xu fire. if > you > are not nourishing yin and clearing xu heat, that is likely the reason you > are not seeing the results you seek. > > kath > > > On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 7:22 PM, Simon Cairns <SimonBethel<SimonBethel%40msn.com>> > wrote: > > > > > Thanks Kath,I did do that and came up with Spleen xu causing damp heat > > especially in the St. She had undergone chemo for breast cancer and had a > > double masectomy in Oct 06 also. But in treating this damp heat am I not > > leaving out, treating the fact that she no longer has ovaries/ hormones > that > > up till recently helped to regulate her internal temperature. I have used > > points to dispel the heat and damp and she is sleeping better but I feel > > that I am not treating the root cause.Simon To: > > Chinese Medicine<Chinese Medicine%40\ From> > <Chinese Medicine%40From>: > > acukath <acukath%40gmail.comDate><acukath%40gmail.comDate>: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 15:48:18 > > -0500Re: Hotflashes > > > > > > same as any other etiology: do a differential diagnosis and tx the > > presenting patterns. > > > > kath > > > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 1:52 PM, Simon <SimonBethel<SimonBethel%40msn.com> > <SimonBethel%40msn.com>> > > wrote: > > > > > Does anyone have any experience in dealing with hot flashes post > > > hysterectomy? > > > Thanks, > > > Simon > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Oriental Medicine > > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective > > > > Flying Dragon Liniment: > > Effective pain relief for muscles & joints > > Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist > > Available at Asheville Center for : > > www.FlyingDragonLiniment.com > > > > & from the following suppliers: > > Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown > > https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1 > > > > Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC > > > > > http://www.goldenneedleonline.com/index.php?page=categories & category=14 & vendor= & \ product=5554 & pg= > > > > Asheville Center For > > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two > > Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 > > kbartlett<kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com><kbartle\ tt%40AcupunctureAsheville.com> > > www.AcupunctureAsheville.com > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 2008 Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 Hi John; I don't believe the black cohosh that's been researched and is now marketed for hot flashes is the same species as Sheng Ma... can anyone verify this? If I have time, I'll try to look it up. Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org ________________________________ <johnkokko Chinese Medicine Monday, 17 November, 2008 20:08:59 Re: Hotflashes Sounds like one of those yin fire type scenarios... with damp-heat from Sp/St dysfunction, along with yin deficiency and ministerial fire not following a natural course.... Maybe Pi/Wei lun school... There's a modification in the Blue Poppy " Treatise on the Spleen and Stomach " for this scenario w/ yin def. heat.... Bu zhong yi qi tang modified : Huang qi, Ren shen, Bai zhu, Dang gui, Chen pi, Zhi gan cao, (no Chai hu or Sheng ma) Shan zhu yu, Shan yao, Shu di huang, Di gu pi, Zhi mu, Huang bai .... Funny thing is that Sheng ma is black cohosh (used for hot flashes), but it also directs Qi upwards. Have people out there gotten good results from using Black cohosh? Best of luck, K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2008 Report Share Posted November 19, 2008 Thanks Kath, that makes sense. o: Chinese Medicine: acukath: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 13:05:52 -0500Re: Hotflashes in my clinical experience, hot flashes always involve yin xu fire. if youare not nourishing yin and clearing xu heat, that is likely the reason youare not seeing the results you seek.kathOn Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 7:22 PM, Simon Cairns <SimonBethel wrote:>> Thanks Kath,I did do that and came up with Spleen xu causing damp heat> especially in the St. She had undergone chemo for breast cancer and had a> double masectomy in Oct 06 also. But in treating this damp heat am I not> leaving out, treating the fact that she no longer has ovaries/ hormones that> up till recently helped to regulate her internal temperature. I have used> points to dispel the heat and damp and she is sleeping better but I feel> that I am not treating the root cause.Simon To:> Chinese Medicine<Chinese Medicine%40\ From>:> acukath <acukath%40gmail.comDate>: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 15:48:18> -0500Re: Hotflashes>>> same as any other etiology: do a differential diagnosis and tx the> presenting patterns.>> kath>> On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 1:52 PM, Simon <SimonBethel<SimonBethel%40msn.com>>> wrote:>> > Does anyone have any experience in dealing with hot flashes post> > hysterectomy?> > Thanks,> > Simon> >> >> >>> --> > Board Certified in Oriental Medicine, NCCAOM> Experienced, Dedicated, Effective>> Flying Dragon Liniment:> Effective pain relief for muscles & joints> Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist> Available at Asheville Center for :> www.FlyingDragonLiniment.com>> & from the following suppliers:> Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown> https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1>> Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC>> http://www.goldenneedleonline.com/index.php?page=categories & category=14 & vendor= & \ product=5554 & pg=>> Asheville Center For > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two> Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777> kbartlett <kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com>> www.AcupunctureAsheville.com>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]>>>>>>>>>>>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2008 Report Share Posted November 19, 2008 Kath, Simon, One should also consider kidney yang vacuity with yang heat floating upwards. Sometimes using warm acrid medicinals to return ministerial fire downwards is the way to go. In general, with chemotherapy, the first thing to go is yin qi, but then the yang is damaged. A lot could be determined from tongue and pulse. If the tongue is very pale, and the pulse thin slow and deep, this points more to yang vacuity. Just one other possibility. On Nov 19, 2008, at 6:09 AM, Simon Cairns wrote: > > Thanks Kath, that makes sense. > > > o: Chinese Medicine: acukath > : Mon, 17 Nov 2008 13:05:52 -0500Re: Hotflashes > > in my clinical experience, hot flashes always involve yin xu fire. > if youare not nourishing yin and clearing xu heat, that is likely > the reason youare not seeing the results you seek.kathOn Sat, Nov > 15, 2008 at 7:22 PM, Simon Cairns <SimonBethel wrote:>> > Thanks Kath,I did do that and came up with Spleen xu causing damp > heat> especially in the St. She had undergone chemo for breast > cancer and had a> double masectomy in Oct 06 also. But in treating > this damp heat am I not> leaving out, treating the fact that she no > longer has ovaries/ hormones that> up till recently helped to > regulate her internal temperature. I have used> points to dispel the > heat and damp and she is sleeping better but I feel> that I am not > treating the root cause.Simon To:> > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2008 Report Share Posted November 19, 2008 Hi Z'ev, Kath and Simon: I've always found it useful to get an exact picture of where the person feels the heat coming from, or where the focal points are, as well as time of day. This can help clarify where the yin deficiency is, and also help distinguish from full heat, unrooted qi, stagnation/obstruction and so on. Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org ________________________________ <zrosenbe Chinese Medicine Wednesday, 19 November, 2008 11:44:29 Re: Hotflashes Kath, Simon, One should also consider kidney yang vacuity with yang heat floating upwards. Sometimes using warm acrid medicinals to return ministerial fire downwards is the way to go. In general, with chemotherapy, the first thing to go is yin qi, but then the yang is damaged. A lot could be determined from tongue and pulse. If the tongue is very pale, and the pulse thin slow and deep, this points more to yang vacuity. Just one other possibility. On Nov 19, 2008, at 6:09 AM, Simon Cairns wrote: > > Thanks Kath, that makes sense. > > > o: Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine acukath (AT) gmail (DOT) comDate > : Mon, 17 Nov 2008 13:05:52 -0500Re: Hotflashes > > in my clinical experience, hot flashes always involve yin xu fire. > if youare not nourishing yin and clearing xu heat, that is likely > the reason youare not seeing the results you seek.kathOn Sat, Nov > 15, 2008 at 7:22 PM, Simon Cairns <SimonBethel@ msn.com> wrote:>> > Thanks Kath,I did do that and came up with Spleen xu causing damp > heat> especially in the St. She had undergone chemo for breast > cancer and had a> double masectomy in Oct 06 also. But in treating > this damp heat am I not> leaving out, treating the fact that she no > longer has ovaries/ hormones that> up till recently helped to > regulate her internal temperature. I have used> points to dispel the > heat and damp and she is sleeping better but I feel> that I am not > treating the root cause.Simon To:> > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2008 Report Share Posted November 19, 2008 Hugo, One of my points is that hot flashes are not necessarily due to yin vacuity. . . otherwise, you make very good points here. Z'ev On Nov 19, 2008, at 10:11 AM, Hugo Ramiro wrote: > Hi Z'ev, Kath and Simon: > I've always found it useful to get an exact picture of where the > person feels the heat coming from, or where the focal points are, as > well as time of day. This can help clarify where the yin deficiency > is, and also help distinguish from full heat, unrooted qi, > stagnation/obstruction and so on. > > Hugo > > ________________________________ > Hugo Ramiro > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org > > ________________________________ > <zrosenbe > Chinese Medicine > Wednesday, 19 November, 2008 11:44:29 > Re: Hotflashes > > Kath, Simon, > One should also consider kidney yang vacuity with yang heat > floating upwards. Sometimes using warm acrid medicinals to return > ministerial fire downwards is the way to go. In general, with > chemotherapy, the first thing to go is yin qi, but then the yang is > damaged. A lot could be determined from tongue and pulse. If the > tongue is very pale, and the pulse thin slow and deep, this points > more to yang vacuity. > > Just one other possibility. > > > On Nov 19, 2008, at 6:09 AM, Simon Cairns wrote: > > > > > Thanks Kath, that makes sense. > > > > > > o: Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine > acukath (AT) gmail (DOT) comDate > > : Mon, 17 Nov 2008 13:05:52 -0500Re: Hotflashes > > > > in my clinical experience, hot flashes always involve yin xu fire. > > if youare not nourishing yin and clearing xu heat, that is likely > > the reason youare not seeing the results you seek.kathOn Sat, Nov > > 15, 2008 at 7:22 PM, Simon Cairns <SimonBethel@ msn.com> wrote:>> > > Thanks Kath,I did do that and came up with Spleen xu causing damp > > heat> especially in the St. She had undergone chemo for breast > > cancer and had a> double masectomy in Oct 06 also. But in treating > > this damp heat am I not> leaving out, treating the fact that she no > > longer has ovaries/ hormones that> up till recently helped to > > regulate her internal temperature. I have used> points to dispel the > > heat and damp and she is sleeping better but I feel> that I am not > > treating the root cause.Simon To:> > > > > > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine > San Diego, Ca. 92122 > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2008 Report Share Posted November 19, 2008 hi all: this has been an interesting discussion. i've appreciated pondering everyone's contributions. kath On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 2:27 PM, <zrosenbe wrote: > Hugo, > One of my points is that hot flashes are not necessarily due to > yin vacuity. . . otherwise, you make very good points here. > > Z'ev > > On Nov 19, 2008, at 10:11 AM, Hugo Ramiro wrote: > > > Hi Z'ev, Kath and Simon: > > I've always found it useful to get an exact picture of where the > > person feels the heat coming from, or where the focal points are, as > > well as time of day. This can help clarify where the yin deficiency > > is, and also help distinguish from full heat, unrooted qi, > > stagnation/obstruction and so on. > > > > Hugo > > > > ________________________________ > > Hugo Ramiro > > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > > http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org > > > > ________________________________ > > <zrosenbe <zrosenbe%40san.rr.com>> > > To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > > Wednesday, 19 November, 2008 11:44:29 > > Re: Hotflashes > > > > Kath, Simon, > > One should also consider kidney yang vacuity with yang heat > > floating upwards. Sometimes using warm acrid medicinals to return > > ministerial fire downwards is the way to go. In general, with > > chemotherapy, the first thing to go is yin qi, but then the yang is > > damaged. A lot could be determined from tongue and pulse. If the > > tongue is very pale, and the pulse thin slow and deep, this points > > more to yang vacuity. > > > > Just one other possibility. > > > > > > On Nov 19, 2008, at 6:09 AM, Simon Cairns wrote: > > > > > > > > Thanks Kath, that makes sense. > > > > > > > > > o: Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine > > acukath (AT) gmail (DOT) comDate > > > : Mon, 17 Nov 2008 13:05:52 -0500Re: Hotflashes > > > > > > in my clinical experience, hot flashes always involve yin xu fire. > > > if youare not nourishing yin and clearing xu heat, that is likely > > > the reason youare not seeing the results you seek.kathOn Sat, Nov > > > 15, 2008 at 7:22 PM, Simon Cairns <SimonBethel@ msn.com> wrote:>> > > > Thanks Kath,I did do that and came up with Spleen xu causing damp > > > heat> especially in the St. She had undergone chemo for breast > > > cancer and had a> double masectomy in Oct 06 also. But in treating > > > this damp heat am I not> leaving out, treating the fact that she no > > > longer has ovaries/ hormones that> up till recently helped to > > > regulate her internal temperature. I have used> points to dispel the > > > heat and damp and she is sleeping better but I feel> that I am not > > > treating the root cause.Simon To:> > > > > > > > > > > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine > > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine > > San Diego, Ca. 92122 > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2008 Report Share Posted November 19, 2008 When I worked at a herb company, about 70% of the practitioners who ordered herbs for their patients used Zhi bai di huang wan for hot flashes, 10% Da bu yin wan, 10% Er xian tang and 10% Liu wei di huang wan. What about the black cohosh? Cimicifuga racemosa, did they find that it was just placebo? Yes... Sheng ma is Cimicifuga foetida, same genus different species. K. On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 11:27 AM, <zrosenbewrote: > Hugo, > One of my points is that hot flashes are not necessarily due to > yin vacuity. . . otherwise, you make very good points here. > > Z'ev > > On Nov 19, 2008, at 10:11 AM, Hugo Ramiro wrote: > > > Hi Z'ev, Kath and Simon: > > I've always found it useful to get an exact picture of where the > > person feels the heat coming from, or where the focal points are, as > > well as time of day. This can help clarify where the yin deficiency > > is, and also help distinguish from full heat, unrooted qi, > > stagnation/obstruction and so on. > > > > Hugo > > > > ________________________________ > > Hugo Ramiro > > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > > http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org > > > > ________________________________ > > <zrosenbe <zrosenbe%40san.rr.com>> > > To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > > Wednesday, 19 November, 2008 11:44:29 > > Re: Hotflashes > > > > Kath, Simon, > > One should also consider kidney yang vacuity with yang heat > > floating upwards. Sometimes using warm acrid medicinals to return > > ministerial fire downwards is the way to go. In general, with > > chemotherapy, the first thing to go is yin qi, but then the yang is > > damaged. A lot could be determined from tongue and pulse. If the > > tongue is very pale, and the pulse thin slow and deep, this points > > more to yang vacuity. > > > > Just one other possibility. > > > > > > On Nov 19, 2008, at 6:09 AM, Simon Cairns wrote: > > > > > > > > Thanks Kath, that makes sense. > > > > > > > > > o: Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine > > acukath (AT) gmail (DOT) comDate > > > : Mon, 17 Nov 2008 13:05:52 -0500Re: Hotflashes > > > > > > in my clinical experience, hot flashes always involve yin xu fire. > > > if youare not nourishing yin and clearing xu heat, that is likely > > > the reason youare not seeing the results you seek.kathOn Sat, Nov > > > 15, 2008 at 7:22 PM, Simon Cairns <SimonBethel@ msn.com> wrote:>> > > > Thanks Kath,I did do that and came up with Spleen xu causing damp > > > heat> especially in the St. She had undergone chemo for breast > > > cancer and had a> double masectomy in Oct 06 also. But in treating > > > this damp heat am I not> leaving out, treating the fact that she no > > > longer has ovaries/ hormones that> up till recently helped to > > > regulate her internal temperature. I have used> points to dispel the > > > heat and damp and she is sleeping better but I feel> that I am not > > > treating the root cause.Simon To:> > > > > > > > > > > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine > > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine > > San Diego, Ca. 92122 > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2008 Report Share Posted November 19, 2008 This is interesting, but it doesn't mean that the practitioners were necessarily correct in their diagnosis. Volker Scheid wrote an article for JCM last year showing that yin vacuity was not the prevalent pattern in night sweats at menopause. Many patterns are possible, but in our field we tend to 'riff' and go with the acquired bias without investigating the signs, symptoms tongue and pulse to see if our patients actually fit the bias. On Nov 19, 2008, at 1:18 PM, wrote: > When I worked at a herb company, > about 70% of the practitioners who ordered herbs for their patients > used Zhi bai di huang wan for hot flashes, > 10% Da bu yin wan, 10% Er xian tang and 10% Liu wei di huang wan. > > What about the black cohosh? Cimicifuga racemosa, did they find that > it was > just placebo? > Yes... Sheng ma is Cimicifuga foetida, same genus different species. > > K. > > On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 11:27 AM, > <zrosenbewrote: > > > Hugo, > > One of my points is that hot flashes are not necessarily due to > > yin vacuity. . . otherwise, you make very good points here. > > > > Z'ev > > > > On Nov 19, 2008, at 10:11 AM, Hugo Ramiro wrote: > > > > > Hi Z'ev, Kath and Simon: > > > I've always found it useful to get an exact picture of where the > > > person feels the heat coming from, or where the focal points > are, as > > > well as time of day. This can help clarify where the yin > deficiency > > > is, and also help distinguish from full heat, unrooted qi, > > > stagnation/obstruction and so on. > > > > > > Hugo > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > Hugo Ramiro > > > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > > > http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > <zrosenbe <zrosenbe%40san.rr.com>> > > > To: > Chinese Medicine > @<Chinese Medicine%40> > > > Wednesday, 19 November, 2008 11:44:29 > > > Re: Hotflashes > > > > > > Kath, Simon, > > > One should also consider kidney yang vacuity with yang heat > > > floating upwards. Sometimes using warm acrid medicinals to return > > > ministerial fire downwards is the way to go. In general, with > > > chemotherapy, the first thing to go is yin qi, but then the yang > is > > > damaged. A lot could be determined from tongue and pulse. If the > > > tongue is very pale, and the pulse thin slow and deep, this points > > > more to yang vacuity. > > > > > > Just one other possibility. > > > > > > > > > On Nov 19, 2008, at 6:09 AM, Simon Cairns wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks Kath, that makes sense. > > > > > > > > > > > > o: Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine > > > acukath (AT) gmail (DOT) comDate > > > > : Mon, 17 Nov 2008 13:05:52 -0500Re: Hotflashes > > > > > > > > in my clinical experience, hot flashes always involve yin xu > fire. > > > > if youare not nourishing yin and clearing xu heat, that is > likely > > > > the reason youare not seeing the results you seek.kathOn Sat, > Nov > > > > 15, 2008 at 7:22 PM, Simon Cairns <SimonBethel@ msn.com> > wrote:>> > > > > Thanks Kath,I did do that and came up with Spleen xu causing > damp > > > > heat> especially in the St. She had undergone chemo for breast > > > > cancer and had a> double masectomy in Oct 06 also. But in > treating > > > > this damp heat am I not> leaving out, treating the fact that > she no > > > > longer has ovaries/ hormones that> up till recently helped to > > > > regulate her internal temperature. I have used> points to > dispel the > > > > heat and damp and she is sleeping better but I feel> that I am > not > > > > treating the root cause.Simon To:> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine > > > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine > > > San Diego, Ca. 92122 > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 20, 2008 Report Share Posted November 20, 2008 I was wondering how you came to know this? I think most of us just order our herbs and the distributor doesn't have a clue what we are using it for. Were you working in an herbal pharmacy that required a diagnosis be attached to each order? Sean Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of john kokko Wednesday, November 19, 2008 4:19 PM Chinese Medicine Re: Hotflashes When I worked at a herb company, about 70% of the practitioners who ordered herbs for their patients used Zhi bai di huang wan for hot flashes, 10% Da bu yin wan, 10% Er xian tang and 10% Liu wei di huang wan. What about the black cohosh? Cimicifuga racemosa, did they find that it was just placebo? Yes... Sheng ma is Cimicifuga foetida, same genus different species. K. On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 11:27 AM, <zrosenbe <zrosenbe%40san.rr.com> >wrote: > Hugo, > One of my points is that hot flashes are not necessarily due to > yin vacuity. . . otherwise, you make very good points here. > > Z'ev > > On Nov 19, 2008, at 10:11 AM, Hugo Ramiro wrote: > > > Hi Z'ev, Kath and Simon: > > I've always found it useful to get an exact picture of where the > > person feels the heat coming from, or where the focal points are, as > > well as time of day. This can help clarify where the yin deficiency > > is, and also help distinguish from full heat, unrooted qi, > > stagnation/obstruction and so on. > > > > Hugo > > > > ________________________________ > > Hugo Ramiro > > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > > http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org > > > > ________________________________ > > <zrosenbe <zrosenbe%40san.rr.com> <zrosenbe%40san.rr.com>> > > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> <Chinese Medicine%40> > > Wednesday, 19 November, 2008 11:44:29 > > Re: Hotflashes > > > > Kath, Simon, > > One should also consider kidney yang vacuity with yang heat > > floating upwards. Sometimes using warm acrid medicinals to return > > ministerial fire downwards is the way to go. In general, with > > chemotherapy, the first thing to go is yin qi, but then the yang is > > damaged. A lot could be determined from tongue and pulse. If the > > tongue is very pale, and the pulse thin slow and deep, this points > > more to yang vacuity. > > > > Just one other possibility. > > > > > > On Nov 19, 2008, at 6:09 AM, Simon Cairns wrote: > > > > > > > > Thanks Kath, that makes sense. > > > > > > > > > o: Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine > > acukath (AT) gmail (DOT) comDate > > > : Mon, 17 Nov 2008 13:05:52 -0500Re: Hotflashes > > > > > > in my clinical experience, hot flashes always involve yin xu fire. > > > if youare not nourishing yin and clearing xu heat, that is likely > > > the reason youare not seeing the results you seek.kathOn Sat, Nov > > > 15, 2008 at 7:22 PM, Simon Cairns <SimonBethel@ msn.com> wrote:>> > > > Thanks Kath,I did do that and came up with Spleen xu causing damp > > > heat> especially in the St. She had undergone chemo for breast > > > cancer and had a> double masectomy in Oct 06 also. But in treating > > > this damp heat am I not> leaving out, treating the fact that she no > > > longer has ovaries/ hormones that> up till recently helped to > > > regulate her internal temperature. I have used> points to dispel the > > > heat and damp and she is sleeping better but I feel> that I am not > > > treating the root cause.Simon To:> > > > > > > > > > > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine > > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine > > San Diego, Ca. 92122 > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 20, 2008 Report Share Posted November 20, 2008 Hi All: This is the problem with a western diagnostic approach and the TCM approach: definitive categorisation. CM expressly rejects definitive categorisation. So, anything could be anything - each time we have to follow the pulse, history, tongue, palpation and so on. " Menopausal syndrome " (which is a great misnomer to begin with) can be _anything_ - sp qi xu, yin xu, yang xu, liv qi constraint, liv fire, damp accumulation and stagnation, running piglet, lu qi xu etc. There is also the issue of layers. Radiation therapy which is hot, no doubt about that, can add both replete heat and a consequent empty heat to an existing condition of sp qi deficiency. It gets very complicated. Unravelling all of this takes either a very skilled practitioner, or a time-consuming, dedicated process. Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org ________________________________ <zrosenbe Chinese Medicine Wednesday, 19 November, 2008 17:04:06 Re: Hotflashes This is interesting, but it doesn't mean that the practitioners were necessarily correct in their diagnosis. Volker Scheid wrote an article for JCM last year showing that yin vacuity was not the prevalent pattern in night sweats at menopause. Many patterns are possible, but in our field we tend to 'riff' and go with the acquired bias without investigating the signs, symptoms tongue and pulse to see if our patients actually fit the bias. On Nov 19, 2008, at 1:18 PM, wrote: > When I worked at a herb company, > about 70% of the practitioners who ordered herbs for their patients > used Zhi bai di huang wan for hot flashes, > 10% Da bu yin wan, 10% Er xian tang and 10% Liu wei di huang wan. > > What about the black cohosh? Cimicifuga racemosa, did they find that > it was > just placebo? > Yes... Sheng ma is Cimicifuga foetida, same genus different species. > > K. > > On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 11:27 AM, > <zrosenbe (AT) san (DOT) rr.com>wrote: > > > Hugo, > > One of my points is that hot flashes are not necessarily due to > > yin vacuity. . . otherwise, you make very good points here. > > > > Z'ev > > > > On Nov 19, 2008, at 10:11 AM, Hugo Ramiro wrote: > > > > > Hi Z'ev, Kath and Simon: > > > I've always found it useful to get an exact picture of where the > > > person feels the heat coming from, or where the focal points > are, as > > > well as time of day. This can help clarify where the yin > deficiency > > > is, and also help distinguish from full heat, unrooted qi, > > > stagnation/obstruct ion and so on. > > > > > > Hugo > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > Hugo Ramiro > > > http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com > > > http://www.chinesem edicaltherapies. org > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > <zrosenbe (AT) san (DOT) rr.com <zrosenbe%40san. rr.com>> > > > To: > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine > <Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine %40. com> > > > Wednesday, 19 November, 2008 11:44:29 > > > Re: Hotflashes > > > > > > Kath, Simon, > > > One should also consider kidney yang vacuity with yang heat > > > floating upwards. Sometimes using warm acrid medicinals to return > > > ministerial fire downwards is the way to go. In general, with > > > chemotherapy, the first thing to go is yin qi, but then the yang > is > > > damaged. A lot could be determined from tongue and pulse. If the > > > tongue is very pale, and the pulse thin slow and deep, this points > > > more to yang vacuity. > > > > > > Just one other possibility. > > > > > > > > > On Nov 19, 2008, at 6:09 AM, Simon Cairns wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks Kath, that makes sense. > > > > > > > > > > > > o: Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine > > > acukath (AT) gmail (DOT) comDate > > > > : Mon, 17 Nov 2008 13:05:52 -0500Re: Hotflashes > > > > > > > > in my clinical experience, hot flashes always involve yin xu > fire. > > > > if youare not nourishing yin and clearing xu heat, that is > likely > > > > the reason youare not seeing the results you seek.kathOn Sat, > Nov > > > > 15, 2008 at 7:22 PM, Simon Cairns <SimonBethel@ msn.com> > wrote:>> > > > > Thanks Kath,I did do that and came up with Spleen xu causing > damp > > > > heat> especially in the St. She had undergone chemo for breast > > > > cancer and had a> double masectomy in Oct 06 also. But in > treating > > > > this damp heat am I not> leaving out, treating the fact that > she no > > > > longer has ovaries/ hormones that> up till recently helped to > > > > regulate her internal temperature. I have used> points to > dispel the > > > > heat and damp and she is sleeping better but I feel> that I am > not > > > > treating the root cause.Simon To:> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine > > > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine > > > San Diego, Ca. 92122 > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 20, 2008 Report Share Posted November 20, 2008 Sean, The stats are approximate of course... definitely not definitive. It's not like the herb companies have a file for everyone for each diagnosis. That would interesting though. Maybe a survey could be done. The reason I wrote those percentages is because practitioners would tell me when I asked them and I've always asked practitioners what they're using for common and uncommon indications... that's just me. After years of taking orders, you get a general impression and keep sane by asking questions. Since hot flashes are so common among our patients, that one comes up a lot and most people use Zhi bai di huang wan, from my experience. There are stats of course on how many of each formula in pill form is bought and sold. A top 10 list for prepared medicine (not proprietary) formulas sold (generally) are: (not in order and not scientific or official in any way): 1. Gan mao ling (common cold) 2. Yin qiao san (wind-heat) 3. Bi yan pian (allergies) 4. Xiao yao wan (everything you can think of) 5. Jia wei xiao yao wan (same as above w/ heat) 6. Zhi bai di huang wan (especially night sweats and hot flashes) 7. Curing pills (especially acid reflux and gas) 8. Ba zhen wan (general Qi and Blood deficiencies) 9. Gui pi wan or Tian wang bu xin dan (shen issues) 10. An mien pian (insomnia) Another trend is that people are buying granules more and more and whole herbs less and less. Ok. That's it. What about the black cohosh? K. On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 4:16 PM, Sean Doherty <sean wrote: > I was wondering how you came to know this? I think most of us just order > our herbs and the distributor doesn't have a clue what we are using it for. > Were you working in an herbal pharmacy that required a diagnosis be > attached > to each order? > > Sean > > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > [Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chinese_Medicin\ e%40>] > On Behalf Of john > kokko > Wednesday, November 19, 2008 4:19 PM > > To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > Re: Hotflashes > > When I worked at a herb company, > about 70% of the practitioners who ordered herbs for their patients > used Zhi bai di huang wan for hot flashes, > 10% Da bu yin wan, 10% Er xian tang and 10% Liu wei di huang wan. > > What about the black cohosh? Cimicifuga racemosa, did they find that it was > just placebo? > Yes... Sheng ma is Cimicifuga foetida, same genus different species. > > K. > > On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 11:27 AM, <zrosenbe<zrosenbe%40san.rr.com> > <zrosenbe%40san.rr.com <zrosenbe%2540san.rr.com>> >wrote: > > > Hugo, > > One of my points is that hot flashes are not necessarily due to > > yin vacuity. . . otherwise, you make very good points here. > > > > Z'ev > > > > On Nov 19, 2008, at 10:11 AM, Hugo Ramiro wrote: > > > > > Hi Z'ev, Kath and Simon: > > > I've always found it useful to get an exact picture of where the > > > person feels the heat coming from, or where the focal points are, as > > > well as time of day. This can help clarify where the yin deficiency > > > is, and also help distinguish from full heat, unrooted qi, > > > stagnation/obstruction and so on. > > > > > > Hugo > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > Hugo Ramiro > > > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > > > http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > <zrosenbe <zrosenbe%40san.rr.com>< > zrosenbe%40san.rr.com <zrosenbe%2540san.rr.com>> > <zrosenbe%40san.rr.com>> > > > To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > <Chinese Medicine%40<Traditional_Chinese_Medic\ ine%2540> > > > <Chinese Medicine%40> > > > > Wednesday, 19 November, 2008 11:44:29 > > > Re: Hotflashes > > > > > > Kath, Simon, > > > One should also consider kidney yang vacuity with yang heat > > > floating upwards. Sometimes using warm acrid medicinals to return > > > ministerial fire downwards is the way to go. In general, with > > > chemotherapy, the first thing to go is yin qi, but then the yang is > > > damaged. A lot could be determined from tongue and pulse. If the > > > tongue is very pale, and the pulse thin slow and deep, this points > > > more to yang vacuity. > > > > > > Just one other possibility. > > > > > > > > > On Nov 19, 2008, at 6:09 AM, Simon Cairns wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks Kath, that makes sense. > > > > > > > > > > > > o: Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine > > > acukath (AT) gmail (DOT) comDate > > > > : Mon, 17 Nov 2008 13:05:52 -0500Re: Hotflashes > > > > > > > > in my clinical experience, hot flashes always involve yin xu fire. > > > > if youare not nourishing yin and clearing xu heat, that is likely > > > > the reason youare not seeing the results you seek.kathOn Sat, Nov > > > > 15, 2008 at 7:22 PM, Simon Cairns <SimonBethel@ msn.com> wrote:>> > > > > Thanks Kath,I did do that and came up with Spleen xu causing damp > > > > heat> especially in the St. She had undergone chemo for breast > > > > cancer and had a> double masectomy in Oct 06 also. But in treating > > > > this damp heat am I not> leaving out, treating the fact that she no > > > > longer has ovaries/ hormones that> up till recently helped to > > > > regulate her internal temperature. I have used> points to dispel the > > > > heat and damp and she is sleeping better but I feel> that I am not > > > > treating the root cause.Simon To:> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine > > > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine > > > San Diego, Ca. 92122 > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 20, 2008 Report Share Posted November 20, 2008 Hugo, You're right... but if you use pills, which a lot of people do, how do you modify the formulas? That's why people are going with granules these days. When you use pills, you tend to fall into the indication = formula route. The experienced herbalists use granules or whole herbs. A teacher of mine told me that anyone can buy pills. We spend years studying herbs so that we can make a custom formula for a patient. If we don't do that, then we're simply wasting our skills. K. On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 4:48 PM, Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: > Hi All: > This is the problem with a western diagnostic approach and the TCM > approach: definitive categorisation. CM expressly rejects definitive > categorisation. So, anything could be anything - each time we have to follow > the pulse, history, tongue, palpation and so on. > " Menopausal syndrome " (which is a great misnomer to begin with) can be > _anything_ - sp qi xu, yin xu, yang xu, liv qi constraint, liv fire, damp > accumulation and stagnation, running piglet, lu qi xu etc. > There is also the issue of layers. Radiation therapy which is hot, no doubt > about that, can add both replete heat and a consequent empty heat to an > existing condition of sp qi deficiency. It gets very complicated. > Unravelling all of this takes either a very skilled practitioner, or a > time-consuming, dedicated process. > > > Hugo > > ________________________________ > Hugo Ramiro > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org > > ________________________________ > <zrosenbe <zrosenbe%40san.rr.com>> > To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > Wednesday, 19 November, 2008 17:04:06 > Re: Hotflashes > > > This is interesting, but it doesn't mean that the practitioners were > necessarily correct in their diagnosis. Volker Scheid wrote an > article for JCM last year showing that yin vacuity was not the > prevalent pattern in night sweats at menopause. Many patterns are > possible, but in our field we tend to 'riff' and go with the acquired > bias without investigating the signs, symptoms tongue and pulse to see > if our patients actually fit the bias. > > > On Nov 19, 2008, at 1:18 PM, wrote: > > > When I worked at a herb company, > > about 70% of the practitioners who ordered herbs for their patients > > used Zhi bai di huang wan for hot flashes, > > 10% Da bu yin wan, 10% Er xian tang and 10% Liu wei di huang wan. > > > > What about the black cohosh? Cimicifuga racemosa, did they find that > > it was > > just placebo? > > Yes... Sheng ma is Cimicifuga foetida, same genus different species. > > > > K. > > > > On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 11:27 AM, > > <zrosenbe (AT) san (DOT) rr.com>wrote: > > > > > Hugo, > > > One of my points is that hot flashes are not necessarily due to > > > yin vacuity. . . otherwise, you make very good points here. > > > > > > Z'ev > > > > > > On Nov 19, 2008, at 10:11 AM, Hugo Ramiro wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Z'ev, Kath and Simon: > > > > I've always found it useful to get an exact picture of where the > > > > person feels the heat coming from, or where the focal points > > are, as > > > > well as time of day. This can help clarify where the yin > > deficiency > > > > is, and also help distinguish from full heat, unrooted qi, > > > > stagnation/obstruct ion and so on. > > > > > > > > Hugo > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > Hugo Ramiro > > > > http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com > > > > http://www.chinesem edicaltherapies. org > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > <zrosenbe (AT) san (DOT) rr.com <zrosenbe%40san. rr.com>> > > > > To: > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine > > <Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine %40. com> > > > > Wednesday, 19 November, 2008 11:44:29 > > > > Re: Hotflashes > > > > > > > > Kath, Simon, > > > > One should also consider kidney yang vacuity with yang heat > > > > floating upwards. Sometimes using warm acrid medicinals to return > > > > ministerial fire downwards is the way to go. In general, with > > > > chemotherapy, the first thing to go is yin qi, but then the yang > > is > > > > damaged. A lot could be determined from tongue and pulse. If the > > > > tongue is very pale, and the pulse thin slow and deep, this points > > > > more to yang vacuity. > > > > > > > > Just one other possibility. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Nov 19, 2008, at 6:09 AM, Simon Cairns wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks Kath, that makes sense. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > o: Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine > > > > acukath (AT) gmail (DOT) comDate > > > > > : Mon, 17 Nov 2008 13:05:52 -0500Re: Hotflashes > > > > > > > > > > in my clinical experience, hot flashes always involve yin xu > > fire. > > > > > if youare not nourishing yin and clearing xu heat, that is > > likely > > > > > the reason youare not seeing the results you seek.kathOn Sat, > > Nov > > > > > 15, 2008 at 7:22 PM, Simon Cairns <SimonBethel@ msn.com> > > wrote:>> > > > > > Thanks Kath,I did do that and came up with Spleen xu causing > > damp > > > > > heat> especially in the St. She had undergone chemo for breast > > > > > cancer and had a> double masectomy in Oct 06 also. But in > > treating > > > > > this damp heat am I not> leaving out, treating the fact that > > she no > > > > > longer has ovaries/ hormones that> up till recently helped to > > > > > regulate her internal temperature. I have used> points to > > dispel the > > > > > heat and damp and she is sleeping better but I feel> that I am > > not > > > > > treating the root cause.Simon To:> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine > > > > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine > > > > San Diego, Ca. 92122 > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 20, 2008 Report Share Posted November 20, 2008 Hi John: You're absolutely right that we can't modify formulas when they are in pill form, and my teacher always says that if you use pills, aim either for the root or the branch, but know which it is. I myself use granules and raw herbs for my most understanding patients, but go mainly with pills for everyone else. Is it blue poppy that uses formula " sections " that can be combined? Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org ________________________________ <johnkokko Chinese Medicine Wednesday, 19 November, 2008 20:04:42 Re: Hotflashes Hugo, You're right... but if you use pills, which a lot of people do, how do you modify the formulas? That's why people are going with granules these days. When you use pills, you tend to fall into the indication = formula route. The experienced herbalists use granules or whole herbs. A teacher of mine told me that anyone can buy pills. We spend years studying herbs so that we can make a custom formula for a patient. If we don't do that, then we're simply wasting our skills. K. On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 4:48 PM, Hugo Ramiro <subincor > wrote: > Hi All: > This is the problem with a western diagnostic approach and the TCM > approach: definitive categorisation. CM expressly rejects definitive > categorisation. So, anything could be anything - each time we have to follow > the pulse, history, tongue, palpation and so on. > " Menopausal syndrome " (which is a great misnomer to begin with) can be > _anything_ - sp qi xu, yin xu, yang xu, liv qi constraint, liv fire, damp > accumulation and stagnation, running piglet, lu qi xu etc. > There is also the issue of layers. Radiation therapy which is hot, no doubt > about that, can add both replete heat and a consequent empty heat to an > existing condition of sp qi deficiency. It gets very complicated.. > Unravelling all of this takes either a very skilled practitioner, or a > time-consuming, dedicated process. > > > Hugo > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > Hugo Ramiro > http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com > http://www.chinesem edicaltherapies. org > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > <zrosenbe (AT) san (DOT) rr.com <zrosenbe%40san. rr.com>> > <Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine %40. com> > Wednesday, 19 November, 2008 17:04:06 > Re: Hotflashes > > > This is interesting, but it doesn't mean that the practitioners were > necessarily correct in their diagnosis. Volker Scheid wrote an > article for JCM last year showing that yin vacuity was not the > prevalent pattern in night sweats at menopause. Many patterns are > possible, but in our field we tend to 'riff' and go with the acquired > bias without investigating the signs, symptoms tongue and pulse to see > if our patients actually fit the bias. > > > On Nov 19, 2008, at 1:18 PM, wrote: > > > When I worked at a herb company, > > about 70% of the practitioners who ordered herbs for their patients > > used Zhi bai di huang wan for hot flashes, > > 10% Da bu yin wan, 10% Er xian tang and 10% Liu wei di huang wan. > > > > What about the black cohosh? Cimicifuga racemosa, did they find that > > it was > > just placebo? > > Yes.... Sheng ma is Cimicifuga foetida, same genus different species. > > > > K. > > > > On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 11:27 AM, > > <zrosenbe (AT) san (DOT) rr.com>wrote: > > > > > Hugo, > > > One of my points is that hot flashes are not necessarily due to > > > yin vacuity. . . otherwise, you make very good points here. > > > > > > Z'ev > > > > > > On Nov 19, 2008, at 10:11 AM, Hugo Ramiro wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Z'ev, Kath and Simon: > > > > I've always found it useful to get an exact picture of where the > > > > person feels the heat coming from, or where the focal points > > are, as > > > > well as time of day. This can help clarify where the yin > > deficiency > > > > is, and also help distinguish from full heat, unrooted qi, > > > > stagnation/obstruct ion and so on. > > > > > > > > Hugo > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > Hugo Ramiro > > > > http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com > > > > http://www.chinesem edicaltherapies. org > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > <zrosenbe (AT) san (DOT) rr.com <zrosenbe%40san. rr.com>> > > > > To: > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine > > <Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine %40. com> > > > > Wednesday, 19 November, 2008 11:44:29 > > > > Re: Hotflashes > > > > > > > > Kath, Simon, > > > > One should also consider kidney yang vacuity with yang heat > > > > floating upwards. Sometimes using warm acrid medicinals to return > > > > ministerial fire downwards is the way to go. In general, with > > > > chemotherapy, the first thing to go is yin qi, but then the yang > > is > > > > damaged. A lot could be determined from tongue and pulse. If the > > > > tongue is very pale, and the pulse thin slow and deep, this points > > > > more to yang vacuity. > > > > > > > > Just one other possibility. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Nov 19, 2008, at 6:09 AM, Simon Cairns wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks Kath, that makes sense. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > o: Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine > > > > acukath (AT) gmail (DOT) comDate > > > > > : Mon, 17 Nov 2008 13:05:52 -0500Re: Hotflashes > > > > > > > > > > in my clinical experience, hot flashes always involve yin xu > > fire. > > > > > if youare not nourishing yin and clearing xu heat, that is > > likely > > > > > the reason youare not seeing the results you seek.kathOn Sat, > > Nov > > > > > 15, 2008 at 7:22 PM, Simon Cairns <SimonBethel@ msn.com> > > wrote:>> > > > > > Thanks Kath,I did do that and came up with Spleen xu causing > > damp > > > > > heat> especially in the St. She had undergone chemo for breast > > > > > cancer and had a> double masectomy in Oct 06 also. But in > > treating > > > > > this damp heat am I not> leaving out, treating the fact that > > she no > > > > > longer has ovaries/ hormones that> up till recently helped to > > > > > regulate her internal temperature. I have used> points to > > dispel the > > > > > heat and damp and she is sleeping better but I feel> that I am > > not > > > > > treating the root cause.Simon To:> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine > > > > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine > > > > San Diego, Ca. 92122 > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 20, 2008 Report Share Posted November 20, 2008 what about wen jing tang? alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 20, 2008 Report Share Posted November 20, 2008 I use this formula or modifications sometimes for hot flashes, it works very well when indicated. Z'ev On Nov 19, 2008, at 7:28 PM, Alon Marcus wrote: > what about wen jing tang? > alon > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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