Guest guest Posted November 14, 2008 Report Share Posted November 14, 2008 Hi all Just wondering if any of you have any thoughts on the new research about acupuncture around embryo transfer. Women undergoing in vitro fertilization (IVF) were more likely to get pregnant with placebo acupuncture treatments than with the real thing. The overall pregnancy rate with placebo acupuncture was 55.1%, significantly higher than the 43.8% achieved with real acupuncture (P=0.038), Ernest Hung Yu Ng, M.D., of the University of Hong Kong, and colleagues reported online in Human Reproduction. It is of course being reported in quite a lot of the media that it definitely should no longer be used although the author Dr Ng says it may still be used but more studies need to be carried out to clarify findings. I work alongside a fertility clinic and am wondering what to advise my rather confused and vulnerable patients? Thanks Sharon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 14, 2008 Report Share Posted November 14, 2008 The problem is that we do not know if placebo acupuncture is really inert. What actually did they do for a placebo treatment? Regards, Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. angelapfa www.InnerhealthSalem.com Phone: 503 364 3022 - sharon391362 Chinese Medicine Friday, November 14, 2008 6:16 AM ivf acupuncture Hi all Just wondering if any of you have any thoughts on the new research about acupuncture around embryo transfer. Women undergoing in vitro fertilization (IVF) were more likely to get pregnant with placebo acupuncture treatments than with the real thing. The overall pregnancy rate with placebo acupuncture was 55.1%, significantly higher than the 43.8% achieved with real acupuncture (P=0.038), Ernest Hung Yu Ng, M.D., of the University of Hong Kong, and colleagues reported online in Human Reproduction. It is of course being reported in quite a lot of the media that it definitely should no longer be used although the author Dr Ng says it may still be used but more studies need to be carried out to clarify findings. I work alongside a fertility clinic and am wondering what to advise my rather confused and vulnerable patients? Thanks Sharon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 14, 2008 Report Share Posted November 14, 2008 Hi Sharon and all: Oh yeah (audience laughter), you mean the HK study where those geniuses had each patient undergo A TOTAL of TWO TREATMENTS of 25 minutes each? Oh yeah, that one (audience laughter)... Either me or those researchers should go into comedy. READ THE STUDIES BEFORE BUYING INTO ANYTHING. Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org ________________________________ sharon391362 <sharon.campbell8 Chinese Medicine Friday, 14 November, 2008 9:16:11 ivf acupuncture Hi all Just wondering if any of you have any thoughts on the new research about acupuncture around embryo transfer. Women undergoing in vitro fertilization (IVF) were more likely to get pregnant with placebo acupuncture treatments than with the real thing. The overall pregnancy rate with placebo acupuncture was 55.1%, significantly higher than the 43.8% achieved with real acupuncture (P=0.038), Ernest Hung Yu Ng, M.D., of the University of Hong Kong, and colleagues reported online in Human Reproduction. It is of course being reported in quite a lot of the media that it definitely should no longer be used although the author Dr Ng says it may still be used but more studies need to be carried out to clarify findings. I work alongside a fertility clinic and am wondering what to advise my rather confused and vulnerable patients? Thanks Sharon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 14, 2008 Report Share Posted November 14, 2008 I haven't had time to read this study yet, but in most previous studies investigating acupuncture and IVF, they only do one treatment at the time of embryo transfer. In my opinion, one acupuncture treatment is unlikely to make a large difference in someone's fertility. I think that this is why there have been such varying results in the acupuncture and IVF studies. I think for fertility treatment to be effective, it needs to me more long term. I generally tell people a minimum of three months of regular treatments is required to make much of a difference. I have people take herbs regularly. So... In my opinion, they are bad studies and don't have much bearing on what most acupuncturists do on a regular basis. I think the idea of placebo or sham acupuncture is problematic as well... Cheers, Ariel Angela Pfaffenberger, PH.D. wrote: > > The problem is that we do not know if placebo acupuncture is really > inert. What actually did they do for a placebo treatment? > > Regards, > Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. > > angelapfa <angelapfa%40comcast.net> > > www.InnerhealthSalem.com > > Phone: 503 364 3022 > - > sharon391362 > Chinese Medicine > <Chinese Medicine%40> > Friday, November 14, 2008 6:16 AM > ivf acupuncture > > Hi all > Just wondering if any of you have any thoughts on the new research > about acupuncture around embryo transfer. > > Women undergoing in vitro fertilization (IVF) were more likely to get > pregnant with placebo acupuncture treatments than with the real thing. > > The overall pregnancy rate with placebo acupuncture was 55.1%, > significantly higher than the 43.8% achieved with real acupuncture > (P=0.038), Ernest Hung Yu Ng, M.D., of the University of Hong Kong, > and colleagues reported online in Human Reproduction. > > It is of course being reported in quite a lot of the media that it > definitely should no longer be used although the author Dr Ng says it > may still be used but more studies need to be carried out to clarify > findings. > > I work alongside a fertility clinic and am wondering what to advise my > rather confused and vulnerable patients? > > Thanks > Sharon > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 14, 2008 Report Share Posted November 14, 2008 Hi Sharon and all: Oh yeah (audience laughter), you mean the HK study where those geniuses had each patient undergo A TOTAL of TWO TREATMENTS of 25 minutes each? Oh yeah, that one (audience laughter)... Either me or those researchers should go into comedy. READ THE STUDIES BEFORE BUYING INTO ANYTHING. Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org ________________________________ sharon391362 <sharon.campbell8 Chinese Medicine Friday, 14 November, 2008 9:16:11 ivf acupuncture Hi all Just wondering if any of you have any thoughts on the new research about acupuncture around embryo transfer. Women undergoing in vitro fertilization (IVF) were more likely to get pregnant with placebo acupuncture treatments than with the real thing. The overall pregnancy rate with placebo acupuncture was 55.1%, significantly higher than the 43.8% achieved with real acupuncture (P=0.038), Ernest Hung Yu Ng, M.D., of the University of Hong Kong, and colleagues reported online in Human Reproduction. It is of course being reported in quite a lot of the media that it definitely should no longer be used although the author Dr Ng says it may still be used but more studies need to be carried out to clarify findings. I work alongside a fertility clinic and am wondering what to advise my rather confused and vulnerable patients? Thanks Sharon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 14, 2008 Report Share Posted November 14, 2008 I think the idea behind the single treatment on the day of the transfer is just to relax the client and prevent a rise in cortisol that might be associated with the stress of the procedure. The protocol is something like St 36, and ear shenmen. It's done 30 minutes before or after the procedure. Regards, Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. angelapfa www.InnerhealthSalem.com Phone: 503 364 3022 - Ariel Solomon, L.Ac. Chinese Medicine Friday, November 14, 2008 10:48 AM Re: ivf acupuncture I haven't had time to read this study yet, but in most previous studies investigating acupuncture and IVF, they only do one treatment at the time of embryo transfer. In my opinion, one acupuncture treatment is unlikely to make a large difference in someone's fertility. I think that this is why there have been such varying results in the acupuncture and IVF studies. I think for fertility treatment to be effective, it needs to me more long term. I generally tell people a minimum of three months of regular treatments is required to make much of a difference. I have people take herbs regularly. So... In my opinion, they are bad studies and don't have much bearing on what most acupuncturists do on a regular basis. I think the idea of placebo or sham acupuncture is problematic as well... Cheers, Ariel Angela Pfaffenberger, PH.D. wrote: > > The problem is that we do not know if placebo acupuncture is really > inert. What actually did they do for a placebo treatment? > > Regards, > Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. > > angelapfa <angelapfa%40comcast.net> > > www.InnerhealthSalem.com > > Phone: 503 364 3022 > - > sharon391362 > Chinese Medicine > <Chinese Medicine%40> > Friday, November 14, 2008 6:16 AM > ivf acupuncture > > Hi all > Just wondering if any of you have any thoughts on the new research > about acupuncture around embryo transfer. > > Women undergoing in vitro fertilization (IVF) were more likely to get > pregnant with placebo acupuncture treatments than with the real thing. > > The overall pregnancy rate with placebo acupuncture was 55.1%, > significantly higher than the 43.8% achieved with real acupuncture > (P=0.038), Ernest Hung Yu Ng, M.D., of the University of Hong Kong, > and colleagues reported online in Human Reproduction. > > It is of course being reported in quite a lot of the media that it > definitely should no longer be used although the author Dr Ng says it > may still be used but more studies need to be carried out to clarify > findings. > > I work alongside a fertility clinic and am wondering what to advise my > rather confused and vulnerable patients? > > Thanks > Sharon > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 14, 2008 Report Share Posted November 14, 2008 Some people also say it is to help relax the uterus in order to prevent contractions and facilitate implantation. I certainly do not oppose this and do this regularly for my IVF patients. I, however, think there is a lot more to fertility treatment. I think a study on fertility and herbal medicine would be really interesting. If I had to choose one, in my practice at least, I think herbs are more important for most infertility cases than acupuncture. Angela Pfaffenberger, PH.D. wrote: > > I think the idea behind the single treatment on the day of the > transfer is just to relax the client and prevent a rise in cortisol > that might be associated with the stress of the procedure. The > protocol is something like St 36, and ear shenmen. It's done 30 > minutes before or after the procedure. > > Regards, > Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. > > angelapfa <angelapfa%40comcast.net> > > www.InnerhealthSalem.com > > Phone: 503 364 3022 > - > Ariel Solomon, L.Ac. > Chinese Medicine > <Chinese Medicine%40> > Friday, November 14, 2008 10:48 AM > Re: ivf acupuncture > > I haven't had time to read this study yet, but in most previous studies > investigating acupuncture and IVF, they only do one treatment at the > time of embryo transfer. In my opinion, one acupuncture treatment is > unlikely to make a large difference in someone's fertility. I think > that this is why there have been such varying results in the acupuncture > and IVF studies. > > I think for fertility treatment to be effective, it needs to me more > long term. I generally tell people a minimum of three months of regular > treatments is required to make much of a difference. I have people take > herbs regularly. > > So... In my opinion, they are bad studies and don't have much bearing on > what most acupuncturists do on a regular basis. > > I think the idea of placebo or sham acupuncture is problematic as well... > > Cheers, > Ariel > > Angela Pfaffenberger, PH.D. wrote: > > > > The problem is that we do not know if placebo acupuncture is really > > inert. What actually did they do for a placebo treatment? > > > > Regards, > > Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. > > > > angelapfa <angelapfa%40comcast.net> > <angelapfa%40comcast.net> > > > > www.InnerhealthSalem.com > > > > Phone: 503 364 3022 > > - > > sharon391362 > > Chinese Medicine > <Chinese Medicine%40> > > <Chinese Medicine%40> > > Friday, November 14, 2008 6:16 AM > > ivf acupuncture > > > > Hi all > > Just wondering if any of you have any thoughts on the new research > > about acupuncture around embryo transfer. > > > > Women undergoing in vitro fertilization (IVF) were more likely to get > > pregnant with placebo acupuncture treatments than with the real thing. > > > > The overall pregnancy rate with placebo acupuncture was 55.1%, > > significantly higher than the 43.8% achieved with real acupuncture > > (P=0.038), Ernest Hung Yu Ng, M.D., of the University of Hong Kong, > > and colleagues reported online in Human Reproduction. > > > > It is of course being reported in quite a lot of the media that it > > definitely should no longer be used although the author Dr Ng says it > > may still be used but more studies need to be carried out to clarify > > findings. > > > > I work alongside a fertility clinic and am wondering what to advise my > > rather confused and vulnerable patients? > > > > Thanks > > Sharon > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 16, 2008 Report Share Posted November 16, 2008 The press (surprise, surprise!) is not telling the whole story. The overall pregnancy rate was significantly higher in the placebo acupuncture group than in the real acupuncture group but no significant differences were found in rates of clinical pregnancy, ongoing pregnancy, live birth rate, implantation, miscarriage and ectopic pregnancy rates. In spite of the press about this study, Ng (the researcher) himself concluded that placebo acupuncture provides an effect and therefore is not an appropriate measure of control. I think it's pretty interesting to see what, if any, beginning conclusions we can draw from this study. Ng's study is really interesting in that he divided groups of women into TCM diagnostic groups, but then did a modified Paulus protocol WITHOUT the auricular therapy. His explanation was that most women were diagnosed most commonly as KI yin/yang xu and Liver qi stagnation with blood stasis, and therefore the points were appropriate. Given the previous success of the Paulus protocol, it is possible that this study just proved how important the auriculotherapy was. A link to the study is here: http://humrep.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/den380v3 Other studies have shown that acupuncture three days after embryo transfer actually decreases chances of getting pregnant, as to protocols where the acupuncture is done offsite instead of immediately before and after the transfer. What's the take away? 1st: we are only beginning to know how to study acupuncture 2nd: less needle stimulation may be better postovulation ( Japanese technique vs Chinese technique) 3rd: treatment protocols with acupuncture might be most effective up to ovulation, and less stimulating methods best from ovulation onward. 4th: Include auriculotherapy. 5th: this latest study only used one needle protocol. Very moving points such as LI 4, SP 6 post IVF may not be the best choices. Points like ear points, PC 6, and points to treat the pattern may yield better results. 6th: there is a very interesting analysis about a DECREASE in vascularity and slight hypoxia of the endometrium as optimal conditions for implantation. I know I have been focused on repeated acupuncture to increase uterine blood flow. Ng's study may be directing us to a period of rest from strong stimulation with acupuncture immediately after ovulation through the time around the missed period. 7th: while the overall pregnancy rate was higher in the " placebo " group, there was no statistical difference in live birth, meaning that women got pregnant, but may not have had viable pregnancies. This still means that acupuncture is more effective than no acupuncture. Hope this gives you some answers for your patients. I know that I will be doing a bit more rest from certain kinds of acupuncture treatment post-ovulation for a while as a result. It would be important for us to realize that it's only a matter of a few days of rest however, as the increase in uterine blood flow via acupuncture may be a vital component in proper placental implantation, but that's another post. Valerie Hobbs, L Ac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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