Guest guest Posted November 2, 2008 Report Share Posted November 2, 2008 Does anyone know of a veterinary Chinese herbalist who could create a raw or granular formula for a dog with cancer? Someone asked me about doing a formula for her dog, but since it's not legal for me to do so, I'm looking for a vet I could refer her to. She is working with a TCM vet, but that person doesn't create individualized formulas. Jeri Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2008 Report Share Posted November 3, 2008 I am a veterinarian currently training in TCM for animals, I hope these links are helpful. Chi Institute has a list of their grads Www.tcvm.com Complementary & alternative vet medical assoc On Mon, 3 Nov 2008 10:49 am, Patricia Jordan wrote: > or you could have the veterinary client access the properly trained, > licensed and certifed veterinary chinese herbalists who do cary > malpractice insurance along with the payment for their additional > training, (for example my master's in TCVM after the four years of > veterinary medical school). each state defines what is covered under > the medical practice act of " veterinary medicine " . If you commit a > misdemeanor practicing medicine without a license, you may only suffer > the fine. If you go to www.tcvm.com and have the client find a properly > trained Chi Institute graduate, you will be working with professionals > that know what herbs and how to deliver them and how to treat any > problems and of course, diangose the problem in the first > place.Sincerely,Patricia Jordan DVM,CVA,CTCVM & Herbology > > : > sienasmiles: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 21:31:38 +0000Subject: > Re: Veterinary Chinese herbalist? > > I have also been asked to make formulas for animals. Each State's > vetboard is different. My understanding is this---you could make > aformula under 2 different scenarios:1) You work under the supervision > of a vet as an 'unlicensed vettech'--this allows you to do Acupuncture > or prescribe herbs (at leastin California)...in vet offices many of the > employees perform manyprocedures or lab work underneath this title. > Vets do not caremalpractice as we do...it's a shocker that animals are > consideredpersonal property, and fall under property insurance damage, > notmalpractice.2) Write the formula for free. By doing it this way, you > are not aprofessional, but a layman. You wouldn't be a Chinese Doctor, > youwould be a human being helping someone out, since you are not > charging.These are the 2 ways I would think you could write a > customizedformula for an animal, at least in California. Check your > state's vetboard, and see if any vets in your area would allow you to > workunderneath their auspices.DS--- In > Chinese Medicine , " kurvenal " <kurvenal > wrote:>> Does anyone know of a veterinary Chinese herbalist who could > createa raw or > granular formula for a dog with cancer? Someone asked > me about doing a > formula for her dog, but since it's not legal for me > to do so, I'mlooking > for a vet I could refer her to. She is working > with a TCM vet, but that > person doesn't create individualized > formulas.> > Jeri> > > ________ > Want to read Hotmail messages in Outlook? The Wordsmiths show you how. > http://windowslive.com/connect/post/wedowindowslive.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!20E\ E04FBC541789!167.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_092008 > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2008 Report Share Posted November 3, 2008 Oops, sent that last one before I was done. Here are other sites to find a TCV vet. Alternative vet med site www.altvetmed.org American holistic vet med assoc http://ahvma.org/ Academy of vet homeopathy http://www.theavh.org/ American academy of vet acupuncture http://aava.org/ International vet acupuncture society http://www.ivas.org/main.cfm Veterinary botanical medical assoc http://vbma.org/ Chi Institute - lists their grads Www.tcvm.com Hope this helps. Jane Owel, DVM (Disclosure: I am currently taking Veterinary Chinese Herbal Medicine instruction through IVAS, my partner was trained in acupuncture at the Chi Institute) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2008 Report Share Posted November 4, 2008 > or you could have the veterinary client access the properly trained, > licensed and certifed veterinary chinese herbalists That's why I was looking for a recommendation. :-) Does anyone have a recommendation of a vet who does individualized formulas that this person can contact? As I said, she is seeing a TCM vet now, but that vet is unable to do an individualized formula, (but could hopefully work in conjunction with another vet who is able to do so.) The dog has cancer that has spread, and GI problems. Jeri Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 5, 2008 Report Share Posted November 5, 2008 that explains it working with a vet that graduated in 1968 there was no program then you are obviously NOT familiar with TCVM nor the training programs that are accepted and certified and legally set up to train veterinarians in the practice of veterinary medicine and the speciality of TCVM. you are not trained in TCVM and that ignorance is illustrated in your response Sincerely, Patricia Jordan DVM,CVA,CTCVM & Herbology : sienasmiles: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 17:49:55 +0000Re: Veterinary Chinese herbalist? My information comes from a Vet who has been practicing both Vet & Chinese Medicine for 30 yrs..she started in 1968...she is the one who gave me this information. Herbal Medicine is based on differential diagnosis whether it is animal or human...have you heard of the Yellow Emp classic, the Nei Jing ???....I adhere to what I said, and if you have a problem with it, I suggest you call the spirit of the great Shen Nong and ask him if using chinese herbal medicine for animals allows you to discard the 8 principles, zang-fu, etc. You assess an animals history, constiution, evaluation, etc. This is the same in mammals....I am sorry that you feel that since you are a Vet using Chinese Medicine that you need not use the same foundation for medicine that all of human doctors of chinese medicine use...the tone of your email is nasty, offensive, and I suggest you change your tone. I am not a disinformer. I suggest you not call me names as that is libel & slander and not what this forum is fo--which has it's own legal consequences.--- In Chinese Medicine , Patricia Jordan <coastalcatclinic wrote:>> > other EXTREMELY false information you have just put on your emial is that the herbal medicine is the same except fot eh dose, there are EXTEMELY important species differences and you should be held accountable for your fals reporting, plus your information is just a lie, Please do not put false information on the web for everyone to see, you are a disinformer that could have legal and lethal consequences!Sincerely,Patricia Jordan DVM,CVA,CTCVM & Herbology> > : sienasmiles: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 16:30:21 +0000Re: Veterinary Chinese herbalist?> > > > > Many of the DVM's trained in are taught & trained byL.Ac.'s....the herbal medicine used for animals is the same as humans,with an modification in dosage per weight. I have trained my self witha Veterinarian-Acupuncturist. And she laughed in that all the vets aretrained by human acupuncturists.The vet board is extremely territorial when it comes to us humanl.Ac.'s touching animals. But I find it funny that we provide them with their training, but yetare only able to work on animals under the supervision of a vet, or asan unlicensed vet tech.Many vet's will pay L.Ac.'s 30/70 for their services---the vets get70% and the L.Ac gets 30%. If you do the math, it equals--EXPLOITATION.DS--- In Chinese Medicine , Patricia Jordan<coastalcatclinic@> wrote:>> > or you could have the veterinary client access the properly trained,licensed and certifed veterinary chinese herbalists who do carymalpractice insurance along with the payment for their additionaltraining, (for example my master's in TCVM after the four years ofveterinary medical school). each state defines what is covered underthe medical practice act of " veterinary medicine " . If you commit amisdemeanor practicing medicine without a license, you may only sufferthe fine. If you go to www.tcvm.com and have the client find aproperly trained Chi Institute graduate, you will be working withprofessionals that know what herbs and how to deliver them and how totreat any problems and of course, diangose the problem in the firstplace.Sincerely,Patricia Jordan DVM,CVA,CTCVM & Herbology> > To: Chinese Medicine@: sienasmiles@: Sun, 2 Nov2008 21:31:38 +0000Re: Veterinary Chinese herbalist?> > > > > I have also been asked to make formulas for animals. Each State'svetboard is different. My understanding is this---you could makeaformula under 2 different scenarios:1) You work under the supervisionof a vet as an 'unlicensed vettech'--this allows you to do Acupunctureor prescribe herbs (at leastin California)...in vet offices many ofthe employees perform manyprocedures or lab work underneath thistitle. Vets do not caremalpractice as we do...it's a shocker thatanimals are consideredpersonal property, and fall under propertyinsurance damage, notmalpractice.2) Write the formula for free. Bydoing it this way, you are not aprofessional, but a layman. Youwouldn't be a Chinese Doctor, youwould be a human being helpingsomeone out, since you are not charging.These are the 2 ways I wouldthink you could write a customizedformula for an animal, at least inCalifornia. Check your state's vetboard, and see if any vets in yourarea would allow you to workunderneath their auspices.DS--- InChinese Medicine , " kurvenal " <kurvenal@>wrote:>> Does anyone know of a veterinary Chinese herbalist who couldcreatea raw or > granular formula for a dog with cancer? Someone askedme about doing a > formula for her dog, but since it's not legal forme to do so, I'mlooking > for a vet I could refer her to. She isworking with a TCM vet, but that > person doesn't createindividualized formulas.> > Jeri> > > > > > > ________> Want to read Hotmail messages in Outlook? The Wordsmiths show you how.>http://windowslive.com/connect/post/wedowindowslive.spaces.live.com-Blog-cn\ s!20EE04FBC541789!167.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_092008> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]> > > > > > > ________> Stay organized with simple drag and drop from Windows Live Hotmail.> http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_102008> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 5, 2008 Report Share Posted November 5, 2008 you are a disinformer and one of the most dangerous kind you use hearsay and claim " heresay " as your foundation of knowledge you are not even comprehending the danger of your advice all herbal medicine is NOT the same the 8 prinicples and Zang Fu pathology and making the TCM diagnosis is taught and you need to compete classes and training in that as part of one portion of the TCVM program, however the physiology is VARIABLY different amongst the many species we as licensed veterinarians and certifed TCVM practitioners treat and different herbs are not used in certain species due to physiological differences like missing enzyme pathways and certain organs not present in certain species. your ignorance in these subjects is due to your lack of education and training in veterinary medicine. you are a disinformer, you have no right to be giving advice on matters you are not educated and licensed to practice. doing otherwise, that is a matter for legal repercusionsSincerely, Patricia Jordan DVM,CVA,CTCVM & Herbology : sienasmiles: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 17:49:55 +0000Re: Veterinary Chinese herbalist? My information comes from a Vet who has been practicing both Vet & Chinese Medicine for 30 yrs..she started in 1968...she is the one who gave me this information. Herbal Medicine is based on differential diagnosis whether it is animal or human...have you heard of the Yellow Emp classic, the Nei Jing ???....I adhere to what I said, and if you have a problem with it, I suggest you call the spirit of the great Shen Nong and ask him if using chinese herbal medicine for animals allows you to discard the 8 principles, zang-fu, etc. You assess an animals history, constiution, evaluation, etc. This is the same in mammals....I am sorry that you feel that since you are a Vet using Chinese Medicine that you need not use the same foundation for medicine that all of human doctors of chinese medicine use...the tone of your email is nasty, offensive, and I suggest you change your tone. I am not a disinformer. I suggest you not call me names as that is libel & slander and not what this forum is fo--which has it's own legal consequences.--- In Chinese Medicine , Patricia Jordan <coastalcatclinic wrote:>> > other EXTREMELY false information you have just put on your emial is that the herbal medicine is the same except fot eh dose, there are EXTEMELY important species differences and you should be held accountable for your fals reporting, plus your information is just a lie, Please do not put false information on the web for everyone to see, you are a disinformer that could have legal and lethal consequences!Sincerely,Patricia Jordan DVM,CVA,CTCVM & Herbology> > : sienasmiles: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 16:30:21 +0000Re: Veterinary Chinese herbalist?> > > > > Many of the DVM's trained in are taught & trained byL.Ac.'s....the herbal medicine used for animals is the same as humans,with an modification in dosage per weight. I have trained my self witha Veterinarian-Acupuncturist. And she laughed in that all the vets aretrained by human acupuncturists.The vet board is extremely territorial when it comes to us humanl.Ac.'s touching animals. But I find it funny that we provide them with their training, but yetare only able to work on animals under the supervision of a vet, or asan unlicensed vet tech.Many vet's will pay L.Ac.'s 30/70 for their services---the vets get70% and the L.Ac gets 30%. If you do the math, it equals--EXPLOITATION.DS--- In Chinese Medicine , Patricia Jordan<coastalcatclinic@> wrote:>> > or you could have the veterinary client access the properly trained,licensed and certifed veterinary chinese herbalists who do carymalpractice insurance along with the payment for their additionaltraining, (for example my master's in TCVM after the four years ofveterinary medical school). each state defines what is covered underthe medical practice act of " veterinary medicine " . If you commit amisdemeanor practicing medicine without a license, you may only sufferthe fine. If you go to www.tcvm.com and have the client find aproperly trained Chi Institute graduate, you will be working withprofessionals that know what herbs and how to deliver them and how totreat any problems and of course, diangose the problem in the firstplace.Sincerely,Patricia Jordan DVM,CVA,CTCVM & Herbology> > To: Chinese Medicine@: sienasmiles@: Sun, 2 Nov2008 21:31:38 +0000Re: Veterinary Chinese herbalist?> > > > > I have also been asked to make formulas for animals. Each State'svetboard is different. My understanding is this---you could makeaformula under 2 different scenarios:1) You work under the supervisionof a vet as an 'unlicensed vettech'--this allows you to do Acupunctureor prescribe herbs (at leastin California)...in vet offices many ofthe employees perform manyprocedures or lab work underneath thistitle. Vets do not caremalpractice as we do...it's a shocker thatanimals are consideredpersonal property, and fall under propertyinsurance damage, notmalpractice.2) Write the formula for free. Bydoing it this way, you are not aprofessional, but a layman. Youwouldn't be a Chinese Doctor, youwould be a human being helpingsomeone out, since you are not charging.These are the 2 ways I wouldthink you could write a customizedformula for an animal, at least inCalifornia. Check your state's vetboard, and see if any vets in yourarea would allow you to workunderneath their auspices.DS--- InChinese Medicine , " kurvenal " <kurvenal@>wrote:>> Does anyone know of a veterinary Chinese herbalist who couldcreatea raw or > granular formula for a dog with cancer? Someone askedme about doing a > formula for her dog, but since it's not legal forme to do so, I'mlooking > for a vet I could refer her to. She isworking with a TCM vet, but that > person doesn't createindividualized formulas.> > Jeri> > > > > > > ________> Want to read Hotmail messages in Outlook? The Wordsmiths show you how.>http://windowslive.com/connect/post/wedowindowslive.spaces.live.com-Blog-cn\ s!20EE04FBC541789!167.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_092008> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]> > > > > > > ________> Stay organized with simple drag and drop from Windows Live Hotmail.> http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_102008> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 5, 2008 Report Share Posted November 5, 2008 D. Siena has been removed from the list for his inappropriate messages (primarily off of the list). Chinese Medicine , Patricia Jordan <coastalcatclinic wrote: > > > that explains it working with a vet that graduated in 1968 > there was no program then > you are obviously NOT familiar with TCVM nor the training programs > that are accepted and certified and legally set up to train veterinarians > in the practice of veterinary medicine and the speciality of TCVM. > you are not trained in TCVM and that ignorance is illustrated in your response Sincerely, Patricia Jordan DVM,CVA,CTCVM & Herbology > > > > : sienasmiles: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 17:49:55 +0000Re: Veterinary Chinese herbalist? > > > > My information comes from a Vet who has been practicing both Vet & for 30 yrs..she started in 1968...she is the one who gave me this information. Herbal Medicine is based on differential diagnosis whether it is animal or human...have you heard of the Yellow Emp classic, the Nei Jing ???....I adhere to what I said, and if you have a problem with it, I suggest you call the spirit of the great Shen Nong and ask him if using chinese herbal medicine for animals allows you to discard the 8 principles, zang-fu, etc. You assess an animals history, constiution, evaluation, etc. This is the same in mammals....I am sorry that you feel that since you are a Vet using that you need not use the same foundation for medicine that all of human doctors of chinese medicine use...the tone of your email is nasty, offensive, and I suggest you change your tone. I am not a disinformer. I suggest you not call me names as that is libel & slander and not what this forum is fo--which has it's own legal consequences.Chinese Medicine , Patricia Jordan <coastalcatclinic@> wrote:>> > other EXTREMELY false information you have just put on your emial is that the herbal medicine is the same except fot eh dose, there are EXTEMELY important species differences and you should be held accountable for your fals reporting, plus your information is just a lie, Please do not put false information on the web for everyone to see, you are a disinformer that could have legal and lethal consequences! Sincerely,Patricia Jordan DVM,CVA,CTCVM & Herbology> > To: Chinese Medicine@: sienasmiles@: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 16:30:21 +0000Re: Veterinary Chinese herbalist?> > > > > Many of the DVM's trained in are taught & trained byL.Ac.'s....the herbal medicine used for animals is the same as humans,with an modification in dosage per weight. I have trained my self witha Veterinarian-Acupuncturist. And she laughed in that all the vets aretrained by human acupuncturists.The vet board is extremely territorial when it comes to us humanl.Ac.'s touching animals. But I find it funny that we provide them with their training, but yetare only able to work on animals under the supervision of a vet, or asan unlicensed vet tech.Many vet's will pay L.Ac.'s 30/70 for their services---the vets get70% and the L.Ac gets 30%. If you do the math, it equals--EXPLOITATION.DS--- In Chinese Medicine , Patricia Jordan<coastalcatclinic@> wrote:>> > or you could have the veterinary client access the properly trained,licensed and certifed veterinary chinese herbalists who do carymalpractice insurance along with the payment for their additionaltraining, (for example my master's in TCVM after the four years ofveterinary medical school). each state defines what is covered underthe medical practice act of " veterinary medicine " . If you commit amisdemeanor practicing medicine without a license, you may only sufferthe fine. If you go to www.tcvm.com and have the client find aproperly trained Chi Institute graduate, you will be working withprofessionals that know what herbs and how to deliver them and how totreat any problems and of course, diangose the problem in the firstplace.Sincerely,Patricia Jordan DVM,CVA,CTCVM & Herbology> > To: Chinese Medicine@: sienasmiles@: Sun, 2 Nov2008 21:31:38 +0000Re: Veterinary Chinese herbalist?> > > > > I have also been asked to make formulas for animals. Each State'svetboard is different. My understanding is this---you could makeaformula under 2 different scenarios:1) You work under the supervisionof a vet as an 'unlicensed vettech'--this allows you to do Acupunctureor prescribe herbs (at leastin California)...in vet offices many ofthe employees perform manyprocedures or lab work underneath thistitle. Vets do not caremalpractice as we do...it's a shocker thatanimals are consideredpersonal property, and fall under propertyinsurance damage, notmalpractice.2) Write the formula for free. Bydoing it this way, you are not aprofessional, but a layman. Youwouldn't be a Chinese Doctor, youwould be a human being helpingsomeone out, since you are not charging.These are the 2 ways I wouldthink you could write a customizedformula for an animal, at least inCalifornia. Check your state's vetboard, and see if any vets in yourarea would allow you to workunderneath their auspices.DS--- InChinese Medicine , " kurvenal " <kurvenal@> wrote:>> Does anyone know of a veterinary Chinese herbalist who couldcreatea raw or > granular formula for a dog with cancer? Someone askedme about doing a > formula for her dog, but since it's not legal forme to do so, I'mlooking > for a vet I could refer her to. She isworking with a TCM vet, but that > person doesn't createindividualized formulas.> > Jeri> > > > > > > ________> Want to read Hotmail messages in Outlook? The Wordsmiths show you how.>http://windowslive.com/connect/post/wedowindowslive.spaces.live. com-Blog-cns!20EE04FBC541789!167.entry? ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_092008> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]> > > > > > > ________> Stay organized with simple drag and drop from Windows Live Hotmail.> http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail? ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_102008> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]_______________ > Stay up to date on your PC, the Web, and your mobile phone with Windows Live > http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/119462413/direct/01/ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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