What is our medicine?

[Guest guest]

Hugo,

 

You are one of the few people I've heard in CM discuss the integrity of oral

transmission, as well as the integrity of practice. I would like to converse

with you more offlist.

 

Liu Ming (lineage holder of ODA) here where I live says the same things as you

do about the limitations of Unschuld and Needham. Liu Ming honors these men but

also notes the limitations of written tradition and to its applications. The

Chinese language only " documents " the oral traditions of Paleolithic to

Neolithic humans living in various " terrains " and then documents the

commentaries and practices of the subsequent practitioners. We all need living

teachers ... as well as being guided by the classic texts. When does meditation

and " practice " not have applications?

 

Alon's point is important that we continue to document for our own times. Your

point, Hugo, is that we remember to practice ... and rely on our practices and

cultivations. A really great exchange. Thank you both for the enlightenment.

 

My own line of personal poetry is to see that practice is only worthy when it is

performance. And performance only ever reveals our practices.

 

Gratefully and respectfully,

 

Emmanuel Segmen

 

 

[Guest guest]

________________________________

Hugo Ramiro

http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org

 

Hi All, Alon and Emmanuel;

 

" Alon's point is important that we continue to document for our own times. "

 

Alon almost always gives me pause for thought with his posts, and I have found

his points to have a particular truth or force behind them which is independent,

in my mind, of whether I agree or disagree with him. In fact, I nearly always

have to agree with him in some sense.

 

" Your point, Hugo, is that we remember to practice ... and rely on our practices

and cultivations. A really great exchange. "

 

QiBo was reputed to have said:

 

“There are five requisites for an effective practitioner. Most physicians

ignore these 5 edicts. First, one must have unity of mind and spirit, with

undistracted focus. Second, one must understand and practice the Tao of

self-preservation and cultivation. Third, one must be familiar with the true

properties and actions of each herb. Fourth, one must be proficient in the art

of acupuncture. Fifth, one must know the art of diagnosis. When one follows

these edicts one will be effective. With acupuncture one can tonify the

deficient and sedate the excess. But if one can observe the yin and yang laws of

the universe and truly apply their essence to treatment, the result will be even

better. This is like a shadow following form. There is no secret here. It is

that simple.â€

 

Too many people these days skip one and two. I know that I myself have much

trouble keeping up with my responsibilities in those areas, though QiBo did

place them at the top of his list. Modern life can be heavily eroding in that

sense.

 

" Thank you both for the enlightenment. "

 

I am just glad to have such a wealth of differing and competent experience and

understanding available to me in this forum. I have always contended that the

three Heart-Full benefits which western-style science has brought our world are

control of pestilential disease, bicycles, and, the internet.

 

Thanks,

Hugo

 

 

 

 

________________________________

Emmanuel Segmen <mrsegmen

Chinese Medicine

Sunday, 26 October, 2008 19:43:22

Re: What is our medicine?

 

 

Hugo,

 

You are one of the few people I've heard in CM discuss the integrity of oral

transmission, as well as the integrity of practice. I would like to converse

with you more offlist.

 

Liu Ming (lineage holder of ODA) here where I live says the same things as you

do about the limitations of Unschuld and Needham. Liu Ming honors these men but

also notes the limitations of written tradition and to its applications. The

Chinese language only " documents " the oral traditions of Paleolithic to

Neolithic humans living in various " terrains " and then documents the

commentaries and practices of the subsequent practitioners. We all need living

teachers ... as well as being guided by the classic texts. When does meditation

and " practice " not have applications?

 

Alon's point is important that we continue to document for our own times. Your

point, Hugo, is that we remember to practice ... and rely on our practices and

cultivations. A really great exchange. Thank you both for the enlightenment.

 

My own line of personal poetry is to see that practice is only worthy when it is

performance. And performance only ever reveals our practices.

 

Gratefully and respectfully,

 

Emmanuel Segmen

 

 

[Guest guest]

Emmanuel I could not agree more, and different perspectives illuminate

different aspects of each of our present reality at different times. I

have pondered quite often on what informed first, the practice or the

classic. I can feel and experience quite differently in different

times. Certainly different perspective emphasis differently, when i

read Unshuld i am always impressed with the han Confucius need for

order, certainly earlier texts such as the formula classic brings on a

much more naturalistic perspective. The problem i always have with

oral traditions is that you cant even make sure the information is

consistent from year to year, thousands of years well i get indigestion

 

 

 

400 29th St. Suite 419

Oakland Ca 94609

 

 

 

alonmarcus

 

 

 

 

 

On Oct 26, 2008, at 5:43 PM, Emmanuel Segmen wrote:

 

> Hugo,

>

> You are one of the few people I've heard in CM discuss the integrity

> of oral transmission, as well as the integrity of practice. I would

> like to converse with you more offlist.

>

> Liu Ming (lineage holder of ODA) here where I live says the same

> things as you do about the limitations of Unschuld and Needham. Liu

> Ming honors these men but also notes the limitations of written

> tradition and to its applications. The Chinese language only

> " documents " the oral traditions of Paleolithic to Neolithic humans

> living in various " terrains " and then documents the commentaries and

> practices of the subsequent practitioners. We all need living

> teachers ... as well as being guided by the classic texts. When

> does meditation and " practice " not have applications?

>

> Alon's point is important that we continue to document for our own

> times. Your point, Hugo, is that we remember to practice ... and

> rely on our practices and cultivations. A really great exchange.

> Thank you both for the enlightenment.

>

> My own line of personal poetry is to see that practice is only

> worthy when it is performance. And performance only ever reveals

> our practices.

>

> Gratefully and respectfully,

>

> Emmanuel Segmen

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Hugo, for that excellent perspective (Sun, 26 Oct 2008 15:53:52

+0000 (GMT)).

 

An analogy comes to mind (my insight-mindfulness bias again), with what

is called " bright faith " , that wonderful, exciting, motivating

experience, as back in TCM school, from the books (and teachers who's

experience was mostly from books). Bright faith, however, tends to be

s/w fickle, looking here, looking there, wherever it sparkles the most,

so to speak.

 

After graduation, licensing, etc., it was soon obvious that I had to

find a different kind of teacher to really have something to use.

Fortunately we have a wealth of teachers with at least some degree of

grounding also in oral traditions. For me it was, for instance, Ted

Kaptchuk, Wu BaoLin, Leon Hammer, and Jeffrey Yuen (and others). (BTW,

this phase/path is called " verified faith " .)

 

The Paul Unschulds and Volker Scheids (and others), however, are an

essential part of the picture, in terms of grounding the roots of a

tradition in our modern understanding (in the Western and globalizing

world). Otherwise, we (as a profession) can get lost in the endlessly

proliferating spectrum of personal interpretations, re-inventions of the

wheel. (Such as " BodyTalk " , btw.)

 

True that pure historical science is s/w detached, e.g. from clinical

realities. That's an essential facet of its value. But scientific

method, at best, is also inherently evolutionary, redefining itself when

it realizes it's coming up short. And, I believe, Volker Scheid also

demonstrates the virtue of that --- using the system to point out its

own limitations, and to explore moving the edges further outwards; and

respecting, at all stages, its own limitations and complementarity with

oral tradition.

 

A problem with oral tradition is it's s/t difficult to distinguish it

from such proliferation, popularization, opportunism, charisma, etc. It

is true, on the one hand, that a carrier of such a tradition is in fact

also re-interpreting, is incorporating contemporary reality into their

" dharma " (sorry, but that's such a good word for it, meaning, at root, a

view of reality, and secondarily the conveying of that as teaching, or

the teaching itself). Every " great master " in CM did just that, to some

degree, to demonstrate the relevance, the vitality of the tradition. On

the other hand, we must test for the impersonal roots, the sense of

discipline and constancy of thread that marks a genuine (sustainable)

tradition.

 

For instance, tangentially, in the numerous cases of some people

nowadays teaching " 2500 or 3000-year old QiGong traditions " , I try to

gently probe whether it is grounded in some genuine oral AND at least to

some extent, documented tradition. (For instance, Daoist oral traditions

are backed up by the voluminous " Daoist Canon " --- the DaoZangJing;

" Wild Goose gigong " has deeper roots, etc.) Is a qigong system a

renaming of an ancient daoyin, yangxian, wushu or other tradition? Or is

it just modern party-line (or worse yet, someone's self-aggrandizement)?

 

Most here are aware of it, but just to clarify the reference, the term

" qigong " as currently used, has existed for less than a Century ---

another instance of historical science helping free us from

(unnecessary) myths.

 

It feels like we're carrying on a time-honored tradition of dialectical

conversation.

 

 

[Guest guest]

1) Footnote to my earlier reordering of " bodymindspirit " to

" bodyspiritmind " as jing-qi-shen, using " spirit " in a more specific

sense referring to qi / re-spir-ation. (As also in the sense of gui

(ghosts, spirits) as Po, metal element phenomena; or the " spirit " God

breathed into " Adam " (etymologically " Adam " = " earth " and " blood " ), and

breathed into the burning bush; or the " Holy Spirit " as the moving

breath/inspiration of God in Christian tradition.) " Spirit " is used

nowadays often blurring the distinction, as denoting mental

( " spiritual " ) states.

 

I think jing-qi-shen offers a good clarification here. Jing as substance

(yin concretizing as blood) provides the substrate for motion --- there

has to be something to be able to move. Jing as activity (yang

concretizing as qi) represents the motion, or more generally, change

that occurs in stuff. And the jing-shen aspect infuses it all with

sensitivity ? proprioception ? awareness.

 

2) Zhongyi as zhongyao does often involve a certain amount of direct,

substantive physiological influencing, though to a far less artificial

degree than modern pharmacology. In the case of zhenjiu (acupuncture /

moxabustion), I think there's a clearer sense of " evoking "

self-management, self-correcting mechanisms or processes. Using the

empirical knowledge codified, symbolized in systems like

channels-points, the Master-Tong, etc., we use some of the complex

interrelationships accumulated in the body ( & spirit & mind). Our

intervention helps to " remind " tissues how to shape-up, so to speak.

(I've been studying " mindfulness " , so that bias pops up often in my

thought.)

 

Reminds me of a recent article on progress in the scientific

understanding of " referred pain " , that provides an obvious reverse

rationale for the mechanisms of acu-moxa Tx. (The article even notes how

ATx seems to be particularly effective in this area.)

 

3) Fri, 24 Oct 2008 18:50:56 –0000, " jreidomd " <jreidomd wrote:

 

>> The Committee for Terms in TCM…

Valuable work done here, I'm sure, but also a modern, TCM

interpretation, filtering and systemizing history.

 

>> Harmonizing (tiao2 / he2) is often thought of in a similar way (as

in *fairness and equality brings peace and harmony*), but in CM

zhong1yao4 there are really just three specific applications; - gan1 /

pi2; - qi4 / xue4, and - ying2 / wei4.

 

Where does Zhang HeZi (the " harmonizer guy " ), as in gongxiapai (School

of Attacking and Purging), fit in here? According to Jeffrey Yuen, his

sense of " harmonizing " can be compared to what many of us spend a lot of

time treating. Namely, the person stuck in a difficult life situation

--- work, marriage, chronic this or that, etc. which, practically

speaking, doesn't allow for easy resolution. They get regularly treated,

" tuned-up " to maintain a working tolerance of the situation, harmonizing

inherent instability.

 

And, if I recall, there was something of a Song-Yuan debate around that.

I think it was his student, Li DongYuan (or his followers?), arguing

that this " harmonization " was a cop-out; that focusing, working from the

inside out (earth / piwei) one could (should) be able to really resolve

anything. (Zhang was basically reinterpreting SHL and neijing medicine

to work everything back out to taiyang, and lungs (as locus of wei-qi,

not so much as taiyin) to be expelled (sweated, vomited, purged,

urinated etc.). This rests on the interpretation that in Han medicine,

the lungs were the primary mechanism of moving things (qi, fluids), less

than the liver's role as it was later developed.)

 

Maybe this falls under the rubric " gan1 / pi2, " as Zhang focused on the

liver (supporting the lungs), and Li Gao on the pi(-wei). Maybe that

rubric " harmonizes " the historical debate?

 

5) As Alon Marcus points out (Sat, 25 Oct 2008 21:10:56 –0700), there is

a different sense of " the patient healing himself " between cultures. The

nuance of " self, " of " identity " is not identical, so to speak.

 

Recently I heard a scientist speak, who researches mindfulness

techniques in treating psychological disorders. He noted: ask a

Westerner " who are you? " and you'll get " I do this, I've accomplished

that, my tastes and style are so-and-so… " . Ask a (traditional) Asian,

and you're likely to hear things like " my clan is such-and-such from

here-or-there (culture); my parents and ancestors are so-and-so,… " .

Specifically, the Confucian " self " differs from the 19th Century

European Romantic " self " , that Western culture is still largely stuck with.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Chris...

 

" As to a single, defining term for " what is our medicine " , I it best to

follow the " old guy " (LaoZi), i.e. the more you try to pin it down

conceptually, the further you stray from the truth of the matter. "

 

Dammit Chris that's not a soundbite I can use...

I'm looking for a short-cut...a silver bullet...something painless...

 

 

________________________________

Hugo Ramiro

http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org

 

 

 

 

 

________________________________

<

Chinese Medicine

Friday, 24 October, 2008 6:40:50

Re: What is our medicine?

 

Hi all,

 

Chinese medicine, as in " (the history of) medicine in China "

(P.Unschuld), is broad as well as, at least at times, deep.

 

Clearly there are attacking and defense facets, as in the pivotal use of

military terms " wei " and " ying " , and notably in the gongxiapai (School

of Attacking and Purging).

 

And clearly there are facets focusing on promoting (or returning to) a

constantly self-correcting, balancing, if you will, process of life,

analogous to the process of (other) natural phenomena --- seasons,

climates, life cycles, cosmic ages, etc..

 

We express, in contemporary terms (including " new age " jargon), this

latter as holistic, homeostasis, bodymindspirit, energetic, etc. Chinese

are s/t amused by this, but we begin with where we are, with what we've got.

 

Two notes here:

1) " Homeostasis " might be thought of as a static (stasis) state of

balance, or rather as an overall centering on a mean of constant change

through shifting states and directions. Is perfect health standing at

the center of the statistical bell-curve, or meandering around it? (As

in the weather here in Silicon / Santa Clara Valley, California: while

there is the statistical " average " year of weather conditions, no one

year approximates this; more typically, every year is marked by strong

deviations.

 

2) " Bodymindspirit " may be thought of in the modern sense of reuniting

descriptive concepts that in Western culture have been plagued by a long

history of separation, even antagonistic opposition. As I understand it,

(ancient) Chinese thought was rooted in an integral sense of life, and

separated out facets functionally and interdependently. E.g. call it

" body-spirit-mind " , to better correspond to the sanbao / 3 treasures

sequence " jing-qi-shen " . Bodily posture and movement interacts with

breathing activities and all are a field for awareness. And various

cultivations (daoyin, meditation, medicine,…) work back and forth among

all three. Serious misalignments occur less as major cultural trends,

but more in extreme phenomena, such as possession or death.

 

Chinese medical thinking uses both direct approaches (attacking,

expelling, etc.) to forcibly correct ( " rectify " ) threatening situations,

and more subtle approaches, promoting, cultivating correct sustainable

behavior, in the Confucian social-political sense, and the Doaist

naturalistic, cosmological sense.

 

As to a single, defining term for " what is our medicine " , I it best to

follow the " old guy " (LaoZi), i.e. the more you try to pin it down

conceptually, the further you stray from the truth of the matter.

 

Another point, perhaps topic, taking off from the " detox " issue:

 

The current media discussion of (chronic) cell-phone usage and brain

tumors brings to light that we today are exposed, life-long, to hundreds

of millions of times the EMR (electro-magnetic radiation) that our

ancestors experienced. Perhaps one of the major challenges for our (and

subsequent) generation(s) in terms of re-interpreting and adapting the

principles, the spirit of CM.

 

 

 

---

 

Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times

http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

 

Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and

acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia

 

 

and adjust

accordingly.

 

 

 

Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely

necessary.

[Guest guest]

What happened to the idea of strengthening the body before you get

sick....? (Lao zi and Nei jing)

which is echoed by " An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure " (Ben

Franklin)

 

It seems as though Qi gong and diet therapy practiced daily are more useful

for maintaining the state of homeodynamics than the strong herbs that are

middle and lower classes of the Shen nong Ben Cao Jing. Aren't the Superior

class herbs of the Shen nong placed in that category because they can be

taken on a daily basis without side effects? ... homeodynamics?

 

Arnaud did say that Gui zhi tang is a " homeodynamic " type formula, because

it regulates ying and wei, nourishing ying and strengthening wei. It would

be interesting to see if he believes that if the idea of " homedynamics "

extends to all of the SHL formulas or just to some of them. The Gu pathogen

type formulas seem to directly attack pathogens... ie. Wu mei wan for

roundworms.

 

K.

 

 

On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 6:50 AM, Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote:

 

> Hi Chris...

>

>

> " As to a single, defining term for " what is our medicine " , I it best to

> follow the " old guy " (LaoZi), i.e. the more you try to pin it down

> conceptually, the further you stray from the truth of the matter. "

>

> Dammit Chris that's not a soundbite I can use...

> I'm looking for a short-cut...a silver bullet...something painless...

>

> ________________________________

> Hugo Ramiro

> http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

> http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org

>

> ________________________________

> < <%40well.com>>

> To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> Friday, 24 October, 2008 6:40:50

> Re: What is our medicine?

>

> Hi all,

>

> Chinese medicine, as in " (the history of) medicine in China "

> (P.Unschuld), is broad as well as, at least at times, deep.

>

> Clearly there are attacking and defense facets, as in the pivotal use of

> military terms " wei " and " ying " , and notably in the gongxiapai (School

> of Attacking and Purging).

>

> And clearly there are facets focusing on promoting (or returning to) a

> constantly self-correcting, balancing, if you will, process of life,

> analogous to the process of (other) natural phenomena --- seasons,

> climates, life cycles, cosmic ages, etc..

>

> We express, in contemporary terms (including " new age " jargon), this

> latter as holistic, homeostasis, bodymindspirit, energetic, etc. Chinese

> are s/t amused by this, but we begin with where we are, with what we've

> got.

>

> Two notes here:

> 1) " Homeostasis " might be thought of as a static (stasis) state of

> balance, or rather as an overall centering on a mean of constant change

> through shifting states and directions. Is perfect health standing at

> the center of the statistical bell-curve, or meandering around it? (As

> in the weather here in Silicon / Santa Clara Valley, California: while

> there is the statistical " average " year of weather conditions, no one

> year approximates this; more typically, every year is marked by strong

> deviations.

>

> 2) " Bodymindspirit " may be thought of in the modern sense of reuniting

> descriptive concepts that in Western culture have been plagued by a long

> history of separation, even antagonistic opposition. As I understand it,

> (ancient) Chinese thought was rooted in an integral sense of life, and

> separated out facets functionally and interdependently. E.g. call it

> " body-spirit-mind " , to better correspond to the sanbao / 3 treasures

> sequence " jing-qi-shen " . Bodily posture and movement interacts with

> breathing activities and all are a field for awareness. And various

> cultivations (daoyin, meditation, medicine,…) work back and forth among

> all three. Serious misalignments occur less as major cultural trends,

> but more in extreme phenomena, such as possession or death.

>

> Chinese medical thinking uses both direct approaches (attacking,

> expelling, etc.) to forcibly correct ( " rectify " ) threatening situations,

> and more subtle approaches, promoting, cultivating correct sustainable

> behavior, in the Confucian social-political sense, and the Doaist

> naturalistic, cosmological sense.

>

> As to a single, defining term for " what is our medicine " , I it best to

> follow the " old guy " (LaoZi), i.e. the more you try to pin it down

> conceptually, the further you stray from the truth of the matter.

>

> Another point, perhaps topic, taking off from the " detox " issue:

>

> The current media discussion of (chronic) cell-phone usage and brain

> tumors brings to light that we today are exposed, life-long, to hundreds

> of millions of times the EMR (electro-magnetic radiation) that our

> ancestors experienced. Perhaps one of the major challenges for our (and

> subsequent) generation(s) in terms of re-interpreting and adapting the

> principles, the spirit of CM.

>

>

>

> ---

>

> Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times

> http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

>

> Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and

> acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia

>

>

> and adjust

> accordingly.

>

> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group

> requires prior permission from the author.

>

> Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely

> necessary.