Fwd: [PCOM Alumni] Medical Acupuncture Vs. L.Ac. Acupuncture

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , " Joy Keller "

<JKellerLAc wrote:

>

" ...a grassroots movement in the works regarding educating the

public on the differences between " medical acupuncture " and the

system of medicine that we practice... "

 

See Joy's original post for full story

 

It IS vital that the public understand the difference between

both 'schools' of acupuncture practice.

 

It's probably even more important that allopathic health

practitioners - physicians, surgeons, nurses, physioherapists, etc

are educated to understand the difference!

 

I feel one of the ways we can do this, is to create meaningful

relationships with other professionals, so we can share and validate

our work and insights.

 

The Society for Integrative Oncology welcomes L.Acs, naturopaths,

herbalists, TCM practitioners, massage and music therapists, as well

as allopathic practitioners.

 

http://www.integrativeonc.org/

 

See what you think

 

Margi

[Guest guest]

Hi Joy, Elie, TCM group,

 

May I suggest that we make sure to use *quotes* when using the term

" Medical " Acupuncture.

 

This term is utterly ridiculous. If that stuff is called " Medical "

acupuncture, is the implication that L.Ac's practicing based on TCM training

is somehow " non-medical " acupuncture?

 

That is why I think whenever we refer to that term we should use quotes

around " medical " to highlight the absurdity of it.

 

~edith

 

 

--

Edith Chan, L.Ac.

Doctoral Fellow

Ph: 415.298.5324

www.EdithChanAcupuncture.com

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Edith

 

I contend that it should be called something like MEDI-PUNCTURE when used by

an MD/DO and

of CHIRO-PUNCTURE when administered by the usual 100 hour DC.

 

It is the KNOWLEDGE and CLINICAL TRAINING of the person behind the needle

that makes it much more than someone who is untrained or poorly trained who

just

happens to be an MD or DC using acupuncture needles.

 

It is the nomenclature wherein a fraud is perpetrated on the public such

that what the untrained perform and bill for is passed off as real medical

acupuncture and what the well-trained acupuncturists do is relegated to some

lesser statuts.

 

One of these days there just might be enough well trained LAc's STAND UP to

this unscrupulous activity by both the allopathic medical and chiropractic

communities.

 

We all have heard from those few MDs, DOs and even DCs who went through

COMPLETE training who castigate their own professions for trying to fool the

public.

 

All of them together ought to be ashamed of themselves and get a real

profession by proper EDUCATION.

 

Richard

 

 

 

 

In a message dated 9/29/2008 12:23:41 P.M. Central Daylight Time,

chineseherbs writes:

 

 

 

 

Hi Joy, Elie, TCM group,

 

May I suggest that we make sure to use *quotes* when using the term

" Medical " Acupuncture.

 

This term is utterly ridiculous. If that stuff is called " Medical "

acupuncture, is the implication that L.Ac's practicing based on TCM training

is somehow " non-medical " acupuncture?

 

That is why I think whenever we refer to that term we should use quotes

around " medical " to highlight the absurdity of it.

 

~edith

 

--

Edith Chan, L.Ac.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

**************Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial

challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and

calculators. (http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001)

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Yes, well said Richard I could not agree more.

 

It is also up to us to educate our clients as to the differences.

 

I have found that my clients don't like me pointing out that their physio

Chiro or Doctor is NOT practicing acupuncture in the TRUE sense and with

very limited training or experience(in most cases).They do become defensive

and think I am being over the top but I persist anyway.

 

Ray

 

 

 

_____

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of

acudoc11

Tuesday, 30 September 2008 6:57 AM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Fwd: [PCOM Alumni] Medical Acupuncture Vs. L.Ac.

Acupuncture

 

 

 

Edith

 

I contend that it should be called something like MEDI-PUNCTURE when used by

 

an MD/DO and

of CHIRO-PUNCTURE when administered by the usual 100 hour DC.

 

It is the KNOWLEDGE and CLINICAL TRAINING of the person behind the needle

that makes it much more than someone who is untrained or poorly trained who

just

happens to be an MD or DC using acupuncture needles.

 

It is the nomenclature wherein a fraud is perpetrated on the public such

that what the untrained perform and bill for is passed off as real medical

acupuncture and what the well-trained acupuncturists do is relegated to some

 

lesser statuts.

 

One of these days there just might be enough well trained LAc's STAND UP to

this unscrupulous activity by both the allopathic medical and chiropractic

communities.

 

We all have heard from those few MDs, DOs and even DCs who went through

COMPLETE training who castigate their own professions for trying to fool the

 

public.

 

All of them together ought to be ashamed of themselves and get a real

profession by proper EDUCATION.

 

Richard

 

 

 

 

In a message dated 9/29/2008 12:23:41 P.M. Central Daylight Time,

chineseherbs@ <chineseherbs%40gmail.com> gmail.com writes:

 

Hi Joy, Elie, TCM group,

 

May I suggest that we make sure to use *quotes* when using the term

" Medical " Acupuncture.

 

This term is utterly ridiculous. If that stuff is called " Medical "

acupuncture, is the implication that L.Ac's practicing based on TCM training

is somehow " non-medical " acupuncture?

 

That is why I think whenever we refer to that term we should use quotes

around " medical " to highlight the absurdity of it.

 

~edith

 

--

Edith Chan, L.Ac.

 

**************Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial

challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips

and

calculators. (http://www.walletpo

<http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001>

p.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001)

 

 

[Guest guest]

Ray

 

It all depends on why one makes a statement of sorts regarding the MDs who

have virtually no training or the 100 hour DCs.

 

The only reason it has ever come up for me has been when the patient claims

that acupuncture doesn't work

and then I ask who they went to. That's when the truth comes out.

 

So far in my exposure I have not had any patient tell me it was another TCM

acupuncturist.

 

Educate appropriately.

 

Richard

 

 

In a message dated 9/29/2008 10:32:54 P.M. Central Daylight Time,

ray writes:

 

 

 

 

Yes, well said Richard I could not agree more.

 

It is also up to us to educate our clients as to the differences.

 

I have found that my clients don't like me pointing out that their physio

Chiro or Doctor is NOT practicing acupuncture in the TRUE sense and with

very limited training or experience(in most cases).They do become defensive

and think I am being over the top but I persist anyway.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

**************Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial

challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and

calculators. (http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001)

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

What will it take to get a law passed where those without a CA board license

in Acupuncture, but have another medical license,

mandate them to be called " medi-puncturists, chiro-puncturists " etc. and

also say that they are in the act of practicing " medi-puncture " or

" chiro-puncture " ? And if they fail to do so, have their rights to

dry-needle stripped?

 

Can this be written into the acupuncture regulations solely or does this

also have to be written into the MD and DC laws and regulations as well?

 

Do we need lobbyists for something like that?

 

How much money would it take?

 

What about Naturopaths and Doctors of physical therapy who may be inserting

filiform needles into people (dry needling)?

I hear this a trend now as well.

 

It's bad enough that we have to be business people on top of medical

practitioners. Now we have to be lawyers as well.

Are we serious enough to get this pushed through? or are we going to have

to figure out another way to universally educate our patients that we

actually have a real education in acupuncture and herbal therapy, in

comparison with those who might take a 100 hour course and say that they are

" board certified medical acupuncturists " . If I was a prospective patient,

I wouldn't know the difference, but I would probably go with the guy who is

both an MD and " board certified " to practice acupuncture. Plus, my

insurance might cover the complete costs for treatment. Yes, this is a

major issue for all of us, especially as acupuncture becomes more accepted

by the public, thereby more profitable for those who would like to get a

piece of it too.

As the economy falters, why wouldn't MDs and DCs not want to diversify their

portfolios and dry-needle? Some MDs are now doing house-calls and

integrative medicine is the hot trend.

Why wouldn't someone who have never tried acupuncture not want to go to an

MD for these procedures, especially if they already know them, trust their

social and professional status (degree) and it's completely covered by

insurance?

 

K.

 

 

On Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 8:32 PM, Ray Ford <raywrote:

 

> Yes, well said Richard I could not agree more.

>

> It is also up to us to educate our clients as to the differences.

>

> I have found that my clients don't like me pointing out that their physio

> Chiro or Doctor is NOT practicing acupuncture in the TRUE sense and with

> very limited training or experience(in most cases).They do become defensive

> and think I am being over the top but I persist anyway.

>

> Ray

>

> _____

>

>

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

>

[Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chinese_Medicin\

e%40>]

> On Behalf Of

> acudoc11 <acudoc11%40aol.com>

> Tuesday, 30 September 2008 6:57 AM

> To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> Re: Fwd: [PCOM Alumni] Medical Acupuncture Vs. L.Ac.

> Acupuncture

>

> Edith

>

> I contend that it should be called something like MEDI-PUNCTURE when used

> by

>

> an MD/DO and

> of CHIRO-PUNCTURE when administered by the usual 100 hour DC.

>

> It is the KNOWLEDGE and CLINICAL TRAINING of the person behind the needle

> that makes it much more than someone who is untrained or poorly trained who

>

> just

> happens to be an MD or DC using acupuncture needles.

>

> It is the nomenclature wherein a fraud is perpetrated on the public such

> that what the untrained perform and bill for is passed off as real medical

> acupuncture and what the well-trained acupuncturists do is relegated to

> some

>

> lesser statuts.

>

> One of these days there just might be enough well trained LAc's STAND UP to

>

> this unscrupulous activity by both the allopathic medical and chiropractic

> communities.

>

> We all have heard from those few MDs, DOs and even DCs who went through

> COMPLETE training who castigate their own professions for trying to fool

> the

>

> public.

>

> All of them together ought to be ashamed of themselves and get a real

> profession by proper EDUCATION.

>

> Richard

>

> In a message dated 9/29/2008 12:23:41 P.M. Central Daylight Time,

> chineseherbs@ <chineseherbs%40gmail.com<chineseherbs%2540gmail.com>>

> gmail.com writes:

>

> Hi Joy, Elie, TCM group,

>

> May I suggest that we make sure to use *quotes* when using the term

> " Medical " Acupuncture.

>

> This term is utterly ridiculous. If that stuff is called " Medical "

> acupuncture, is the implication that L.Ac's practicing based on TCM

> training

> is somehow " non-medical " acupuncture?

>

> That is why I think whenever we refer to that term we should use quotes

> around " medical " to highlight the absurdity of it.

>

> ~edith

>

> --

> Edith Chan, L.Ac.

>

> **************Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial

> challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips

> and

> calculators. (http://www.walletpo

> <http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001>

> p.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001)

>

>

[Guest guest]

K

 

Within each separate state the appropriate language MUST be in MD/DO statute

and the DC statute. What exists within the acupuncture statute as it relates

to MDs/DOs/DCs would be irrelevant. This is not legal advice.......just by

experience.

 

Possibly a national organization such as the AAAOM might like to take this

on? Many years ago they worked with one of the biggest lawyers/lawfirms which

had experience representing pharmaceutical companies.

 

As to the reimbursement for MDs/DOs/DCs for acupuncture with little or no

training.......well that's the insurance company scheme. They totally know

this. For if they reimburse a modality by a practitioner as such.......there

will

be little or no results. Insurance companies make their BIG money off

investing high premiums NOT off reducing premiums.

 

As to MDs calling themselves Board Certified in Acupuncture.......the AMA at

least in the past was totally against MDs from calling themselves Certified

in ANYTHING.....unless they went back to school for 3 to 4 years and take a

recognized test (passing it). That Board Certification MUST be one approved by

the ABMS American Board of Medical Specialties and the last I looked they had

no such Board certification in acupuncture.

 

In 2007 I filed complaints against approximately 30 MDs and DOs in Florida

with the documented proof that they were calling themselves Board Certified in

Acupuncture. This way by the way a violation of their own statute AND the

Department of Health statute. Every single complaint was thrown out with a

gobbledegook nonsensical statement. So you see it makes no difference even if

you

are 10000% correct. The system has designed it so the incompetent's get

reimbursed and we do not.

 

So far the best one can do is forewarn your patients.

 

None of the above is meant as legal advice.....just experience.

 

I was the ONLY one who ever filed a Class Action LawSuit AGAINST ALL of the

major insurance companies for failing to pay acupuncturists. Not one other

national or state acupuncture organization has ever done that not to mention any

individual acupuncturist.

 

It was as expected.......the judges are rigged in these kind of cases and my

the claim was disregarded. But I tried anyway....just to test how rigged the

system is.

 

Now if 20,000 LAc's in the United States stood up and made these type of

arguments to their lawmakers directly (forget about the rigged

lobbyists).......there is a slim chance that something might be done.

 

Logic......why would any patient go to an MD to receive acupuncture when

he/she has little or no training? The answer is greed.

 

Take for example Carpal Tunnel Syndrome. The same reason why people go and

have mostly nonsensical costly surgery (and the MDs usually tell them there is

no guarantee that it will work to cover their rear ends) instead of coming to

an LAc and have it fixed let us say for $200 or less. The patient does not

want to pay $200 out of their pocket if they can get the useless surgery paid

for even if it won't work. Of course it all depends on how much pain they are

in.

 

Richard

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In a message dated 9/30/2008 10:35:13 A.M. Central Daylight Time,

johnkokko writes:

 

 

 

 

What will it take to get a law passed where those without a CA board license

in Acupuncture, but have another medical license,

mandate them to be called " medi-puncturists, chiro-puncturists " etc. and

also say that they are in the act of practicing " medi-puncture " or

" chiro-puncture " " chiro-puncture " <WBR>? And if they fail to do so,

dry-needle stripped?

 

Can this be written into the acupuncture regulations solely or does this

also have to be written into the MD and DC laws and regulations as well?

 

Do we need lobbyists for something like that?

 

How much money would it take?

 

What about Naturopaths and Doctors of physical therapy who may be inserting

filiform needles into people (dry needling)?

I hear this a trend now as well.

 

It's bad enough that we have to be business people on top of medical

practitioners. Now we have to be lawyers as well.

Are we serious enough to get this pushed through? or are we going to have

to figure out another way to universally educate our patients that we

actually have a real education in acupuncture and herbal therapy, in

comparison with those who might take a 100 hour course and say that they are

" board certified medical acupuncturists " " board certified medical acupuncturis

I wouldn't know the difference, but I would probably go with the guy who is

both an MD and " board certified " to practice acupuncture. Plus, my

insurance might cover the complete costs for treatment. Yes, this is a

major issue for all of us, especially as acupuncture becomes more accepted

by the public, thereby more profitable for those who would like to get a

piece of it too.

As the economy falters, why wouldn't MDs and DCs not want to diversify their

portfolios and dry-needle? Some MDs are now doing house-calls and

integrative medicine is the hot trend.

Why wouldn't someone who have never tried acupuncture not want to go to an

MD for these procedures, especially if they already know them, trust their

social and professional status (degree) and it's completely covered by

insurance?

 

K.

 

On Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 8:32 PM, Ray Ford <_ray@rayfordacupunctray@rayfor_

(ray) >wrote:

 

> Yes, well said Richard I could not agree more.

>

> It is also up to us to educate our clients as to the differences.

>

> I have found that my clients don't like me pointing out that their physio

> Chiro or Doctor is NOT practicing acupuncture in the TRUE sense and with

> very limited training or experience(in most cases).They do become defensive

> and think I am being over the top but I persist anyway.

>

> Ray

>

> _____

>

> _Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_

(Chinese Medicine )

<Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_<WBTra>

> [_Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_

(Chinese Medicine )

<Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_<WB<WB>]

> On Behalf Of

> _acudoc11_ (acudoc11) <acudoc11%40aol.acu>

> Tuesday, 30 September 2008 6:57 AM

> _Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_

(Chinese Medicine )

<Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_<WBTra>

> Re: Fwd: [PCOM Alumni] Medical Acupuncture Vs. L.Ac.

> Acupuncture

>

> Edith

>

> I contend that it should be called something like MEDI-PUNCTURE when used

> by

>

> an MD/DO and

> of CHIRO-PUNCTURE when administered by the usual 100 hour DC.

>

> It is the KNOWLEDGE and CLINICAL TRAINING of the person behind the needle

> that makes it much more than someone who is untrained or poorly trained who

>

> just

> happens to be an MD or DC using acupuncture needles.

>

> It is the nomenclature wherein a fraud is perpetrated on the public such

> that what the untrained perform and bill for is passed off as real medical

> acupuncture and what the well-trained acupuncturists do is relegated to

> some

>

> lesser statuts.

>

> One of these days there just might be enough well trained LAc's STAND UP to

>

> this unscrupulous activity by both the allopathic medical and chiropractic

> communities.

>

> We all have heard from those few MDs, DOs and even DCs who went through

> COMPLETE training who castigate their own professions for trying to fool

> the

>

> public.

>

> All of them together ought to be ashamed of themselves and get a real

> profession by proper EDUCATION.

>

> Richard

>

> In a message dated 9/29/2008 12:23:41 P.M. Central Daylight Time,

> chineseherbs@ <chineseherbchimai<chineseherbschineseherbchi>>

> gmail.com writes:

>

> Hi Joy, Elie, TCM group,

>

> May I suggest that we make sure to use *quotes* when using the term

> " Medical " Acupuncture.

>

> This term is utterly ridiculous. If that stuff is called " Medical "

> acupuncture, is the implication that L.Ac's practicing based on TCM

> training

> is somehow " non-medical " acupuncture?

>

> That is why I think whenever we refer to that term we should use quotes

> around " medical " to highlight the absurdity of it.

>

> ~edith

>

> --

> Edith Chan, L.Ac.

>

> ************ ************<WBR>**Looking for simple solutions to your r

> challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips

> and

> calculators. (_http://www.walletpo_ (http://www.walletpo/)

> <_http://www.walletpohttp://www.whttp://www.wallehttp_

(http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001) >

> p.com/?NCID= p.com/?NCID

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

>

>

 

--

, L.Ac aka Mu bong Lim

Father of Bhakti

 

The Four Reliances:

Do not rely upon the individual, but rely upon the teaching.

As far as teachings go, do not rely upon the words alone, but rely upon the

meaning that underlies them.

Regarding the meaning, do not rely upon the provisional meaning alone, but

rely upon the definitive meaning.

And regarding the definitive meaning, do not rely upon ordinary

consciousness, but rely upon wisdom awareness.

 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

**************Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial

challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and

calculators. (http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001)

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

These are the issues that we should be dealing with in our local state and

national professional associations. If we all joined, our dues could be used to

pay for lobbying, to pay for legal advice, so that we could take powerful

positions to shape our professional future. If we all became active in our state

and national associations, we could create some collective backbone to address

these and other issues, such as limitations to our scope of practice, efforts to

limit our access to herbs, etc. We could also much more sucessfully educate the

public collectively, rather than struggling individually on a one to one level.

Collectively, we could hire professional help to educate the public, so that we

are taking control of what message we want to get across and how we want to say

it. We can let the public know about our education, training, the benefits of

acupuncture and . It requires money, but also, it requires

getting active, getting involved. It requires a commitment to our profession. It

requires us to work together as a profession.

 

For those in CA, I'm on the board of CSOMA and would love more participation,

otherwise, if your state doesn't have an association, create one, if it has one,

join and get active.

 

Sincerely,

 

 

 

TruthSayer, L.Ac., LMFT

Diplomate in Oriental Medicine(NCCAOM)

 

Transcendental Acupuncture

2275 Market Street #C

San Francisco, CA 94114

415-686-1193

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

<johnkokko

Chinese Medicine

Tue, 30 Sep 2008 8:30 am

Re: Fwd: [PCOM Alumni] Medical Acupuncture Vs. L.Ac. Acupuncture

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What will it take to get a law passed where those without a CA board license

 

in Acupuncture, but have another medical license,

 

mandate them to be called " medi-puncturists, chiro-puncturists " etc. and

 

also say that they are in the act of practicing " medi-puncture " or

 

" chiro-puncture " ? And if they fail to do so, have their rights to

 

dry-needle stripped?

 

 

 

Can this be written into the acupuncture regulations solely or does this

 

also have to be written into the MD and DC laws and regulations as well?

 

 

 

Do we need lobbyists for something like that?

 

 

 

How much money would it take?

 

 

 

What about Naturopaths and Doctors of physical therapy who may be inserting

 

filiform needles into people (dry needling)?

 

I hear this a trend now as well.

 

 

 

It's bad enough that we have to be business people on top of medical

 

practitioners. Now we have to be lawyers as well.

 

Are we serious enough to get this pushed through? or are we going to have

 

to figure out another way to universally educate our patients that we

 

actually have a real education in acupuncture and herbal therapy, in

 

comparison with those who might take a 100 hour course and say that they are

 

" board certified medical acupuncturists " . If I was a prospective patient,

 

I wouldn't know the difference, but I would probably go with the guy who is

 

both an MD and " board certified " to practice acupuncture. Plus, my

 

insurance might cover the complete costs for treatment. Yes, this is a

 

major issue for all of us, especially as acupuncture becomes more accepted

 

by the public, thereby more profitable for those who would like to get a

 

piece of it too.

 

As the economy falters, why wouldn't MDs and DCs not want to diversify their

 

portfolios and dry-needle? Some MDs are now doing house-calls and

 

integrative medicine is the hot trend.

 

Why wouldn't someone who have never tried acupuncture not want to go to an

 

MD for these procedures, especially if they already know them, trust their

 

social and professional status (degree) and it's completely covered by

 

insurance?

 

 

 

K.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

If in those states where a state association does not exist, (as we did even

though a state org existed) form an organization but resist using lobbyists.

Lobbyists are generally co-opted by forces behind the scenes and will take

lots of your limited funds while accomplishing nothing.

 

Avoid not-for-profit corporations for those are easily taken-over by forces

not in the individual practitioners best interests. Closely held corporations

even though for-profit cannot be invaded covertly or otherwise.

 

As individual practitioners you can (at least here in Florida) LOBBY for

yourself needing nothing other than registering with the state with no fees to

pay. And that is lobbying both in the legislative AND executive branch of

government.

 

As to national orgs.......let me say from personal experience that the same

applies. Often large lumbering organizations which try to please everyone

often move at at slower than a snails pace. When many years ago the lobbyist

for

the primary Florida state acupuncture organization I took over as legislative

chair for that association.....the long time lobbyist asked me what my

vision was for the profession. After hearing what I had to say....her comment

was

that it was very nice but that it would take at least twenty years. I

commented for her to watch it be accomplished in two years and it was. Of

course I

was legally abused by frivolous law suit-attacks afterwards for over five

years in two wrong level courts.... which ultimately wound up that we have even

stronger unofficial titles (now called words and phrases under the First

Amendment of the US Constitution - Commercial Free Speech) and the

night-trade-schools trying to sell yet another " dream-degree " for some $60,000

are annoyed

to say the least. They want to monopolize for a high price the word " doctor " .

 

At that same time......Acupoint Injection Therapy was also put into

place.... annoying a heck of a lot more people many of which are acupuncture

practitioners. They are upset that we call ourselves " doctors " to which response

is

often given.........since the Florida Acupuncture Practice Act (LAW) says that

we are a form of PRIMARY CARE and that we DIAGNOSE & TREAT ILLNESS & INJURY

what might you functionally call that - if not DOCTOR?

 

As previously stated in all the years that acupuncture has been licensed in

the US, never before had anyone or for that matter any state or national

acupuncture organization filed a class action lawsuit against every major

insurance carrier for discriminatory reimbursement practices against LAc's.

 

Yes....just one person accomplished this act. I did it for many reasons

without it costing me any money. I found a law-firm which I thought at the time

would do the right job but in the end found out that " the system " will block

you every step of the way.

 

Still.......if enough individuals took a little of their own money and

instead of blindly giving it over to state and/or national

organizations........LOBBY YOURSELVES. Speak out yourselves. You would be amazed

what one person can

accomplish.

 

Stated some time ago....I was shocked that in over 15 years none of the

national OR state acupuncture organizations supported the Federal Acupuncture

Bill. Congressman Maurice Hinchey of New York continues to sponsor the Federal

AP Bill every two years. It again took one person to stir this up and finally

after all those years others including AP organizations have jumped on the

band-wagon.

 

We may be fighting the Don Quixote wind-mills yet just maybe we will break

through and not be left behind.

 

One of my brothers is a Board Certified Oncologist for the past 30+ years.

He recently sent me an excerpt book printed by the HEMATOLOGY/ONCOLOGY CLINICS

OF NORTH AMERICA - August 2008 edition on INTEGRATIVE MEDICINE IN ONCOLOGY.

Fascinating articles written by Oncologist peers on a number of modalities

specifically including acupuncture AND Chinese herbs.

 

So the AMA has a real problem on their hands. Its either accepted or not and

if they or the American Board of Medical Specialties does their job

correctly MDs/DOs will have to actually take a 3+ year REAL course and take a

REAL

test before they are Board Certified in Acupuncture/OM.

 

It is incumbent on us as individual practitioners not to allow the untrained

or poorly trained to corrupt and co-opt the profession.

 

Speaking about the word " profession " ......recently at a Florida Board of

Acupuncture meeting one of the high ranking officers of a state AP organization

spoke before the board calling what we do an " industry " . See this is what

happens when a state organizations get co-opted by forces not in our benefit.

They reduce a profession to a " cottage industry " . Our profession might be small

compared to say 633,000 MDs/DOs but we are NOT an " industry " .

 

Richard

 

None of the above is meant as legal advice. Just experience from one person.

 

 

 

**************Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial

challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and

calculators. (http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001)

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Yes Richard

 

It is almost exclusively for this reason, the patient tells me that

acupuncture hasn't worked for them before.

 

They have usually been referred by a friend and are having a last attempt

before surgery or anti-depressants.The number of these type patients I see

is increasing every month.

 

Ray

 

 

 

_____

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of

acudoc11

Tuesday, 30 September 2008 11:34 PM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Fwd: [PCOM Alumni] Medical Acupuncture Vs. L.Ac.

Acupuncture

 

 

 

Ray

 

It all depends on why one makes a statement of sorts regarding the MDs who

have virtually no training or the 100 hour DCs.

 

The only reason it has ever come up for me has been when the patient claims

that acupuncture doesn't work

and then I ask who they went to. That's when the truth comes out.

 

So far in my exposure I have not had any patient tell me it was another TCM

acupuncturist.

 

Educate appropriately.

 

Richard

 

 

In a message dated 9/29/2008 10:32:54 P.M. Central Daylight Time,

ray@rayfordacupunct <ray%40rayfordacupuncture.com.au> ure.com.au

writes:

 

Yes, well said Richard I could not agree more.

 

It is also up to us to educate our clients as to the differences.

 

I have found that my clients don't like me pointing out that their physio

Chiro or Doctor is NOT practicing acupuncture in the TRUE sense and with

very limited training or experience(in most cases).They do become defensive

and think I am being over the top but I persist anyway.

 

**************Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial

challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips

and

calculators. (http://www.walletpo

<http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001>

p.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001)

 

 

[Guest guest]

I would have to differ with you Kath.

 

One does not ever risk opening the acupuncture practice act

but in FACT lobbies to open the MDs/DOs/DCs practice act to make such

changes.

 

Acupuncture Practice Acts do NOT have any legal enforcement over other

healthcare practitioners.

 

As this is not legal advice if one is interested CHECK with a lawyer in your

area.

 

Richard

 

 

 

 

In a message dated 10/2/2008 12:14:28 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

acukath writes:

 

 

 

 

john:

 

exempting md's and chiros form practicing acu without our level of edu and

certification isn't going to happen at this point, simply because we do not

have the political clout to go up against the ama and the chiro assoc. its

plain numbers: there's a lot more of them then there are of us.

 

legally, to do this, we would need to open up each state's acu practice act

individually and get an exemption put in to it saying that only LAc's can

practice acu. of course the ama and chiro assoc would fight it, and we

would not be able to get it through.

 

kath bartlett

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

**************Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial

challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and

calculators. (http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001)

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Ray:

 

i haven't had the defensive reaction from patients you are getting.

undoubtedly we have different patient populations. maybe a softer approach

to the subject would be received? just a thought.

 

kath

 

On Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 11:32 PM, Ray Ford <raywrote:

 

> Yes, well said Richard I could not agree more.

>

> It is also up to us to educate our clients as to the differences.

>

> I have found that my clients don't like me pointing out that their physio

> Chiro or Doctor is NOT practicing acupuncture in the TRUE sense and with

> very limited training or experience(in most cases).They do become defensive

> and think I am being over the top but I persist anyway.

>

> Ray

>

> _____

>

>

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

>

[Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chinese_Medicin\

e%40>]

> On Behalf Of

> acudoc11 <acudoc11%40aol.com>

> Tuesday, 30 September 2008 6:57 AM

> To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> Re: Fwd: [PCOM Alumni] Medical Acupuncture Vs. L.Ac.

> Acupuncture

>

> Edith

>

> I contend that it should be called something like MEDI-PUNCTURE when used

> by

>

> an MD/DO and

> of CHIRO-PUNCTURE when administered by the usual 100 hour DC.

>

> It is the KNOWLEDGE and CLINICAL TRAINING of the person behind the needle

> that makes it much more than someone who is untrained or poorly trained who

>

> just

> happens to be an MD or DC using acupuncture needles.

>

> It is the nomenclature wherein a fraud is perpetrated on the public such

> that what the untrained perform and bill for is passed off as real medical

> acupuncture and what the well-trained acupuncturists do is relegated to

> some

>

> lesser statuts.

>

> One of these days there just might be enough well trained LAc's STAND UP to

>

> this unscrupulous activity by both the allopathic medical and chiropractic

> communities.

>

> We all have heard from those few MDs, DOs and even DCs who went through

> COMPLETE training who castigate their own professions for trying to fool

> the

>

> public.

>

> All of them together ought to be ashamed of themselves and get a real

> profession by proper EDUCATION.

>

> Richard

>

> In a message dated 9/29/2008 12:23:41 P.M. Central Daylight Time,

> chineseherbs@ <chineseherbs%40gmail.com<chineseherbs%2540gmail.com>>

> gmail.com writes:

>

> Hi Joy, Elie, TCM group,

>

> May I suggest that we make sure to use *quotes* when using the term

> " Medical " Acupuncture.

>

> This term is utterly ridiculous. If that stuff is called " Medical "

> acupuncture, is the implication that L.Ac's practicing based on TCM

> training

> is somehow " non-medical " acupuncture?

>

> That is why I think whenever we refer to that term we should use quotes

> around " medical " to highlight the absurdity of it.

>

> ~edith

>

> --

> Edith Chan, L.Ac.

>

> **************Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial

> challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips

> and

> calculators. (http://www.walletpo

> <http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001>

> p.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001)

>

>

[Guest guest]

john:

 

exempting md's and chiros form practicing acu without our level of edu and

certification isn't going to happen at this point, simply because we do not

have the political clout to go up against the ama and the chiro assoc. its

plain numbers: there's a lot more of them then there are of us.

 

legally, to do this, we would need to open up each state's acu practice act

individually and get an exemption put in to it saying that only LAc's can

practice acu. of course the ama and chiro assoc would fight it, and we

would not be able to get it through.

 

Chinese Medicine

 

On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 11:30 AM, <johnkokko wrote:

 

> What will it take to get a law passed where those without a CA board

> license

> in Acupuncture, but have another medical license,

> mandate them to be called " medi-puncturists, chiro-puncturists " etc. and

> also say that they are in the act of practicing " medi-puncture " or

> " chiro-puncture " ? And if they fail to do so, have their rights to

> dry-needle stripped?

>

> Can this be written into the acupuncture regulations solely or does this

> also have to be written into the MD and DC laws and regulations as well?

>

> Do we need lobbyists for something like that?

>

> How much money would it take?

>

> What about Naturopaths and Doctors of physical therapy who may be inserting

> filiform needles into people (dry needling)?

> I hear this a trend now as well.

>

> It's bad enough that we have to be business people on top of medical

> practitioners. Now we have to be lawyers as well.

> Are we serious enough to get this pushed through? or are we going to have

> to figure out another way to universally educate our patients that we

> actually have a real education in acupuncture and herbal therapy, in

> comparison with those who might take a 100 hour course and say that they

> are

> " board certified medical acupuncturists " . If I was a prospective patient,

> I wouldn't know the difference, but I would probably go with the guy who is

> both an MD and " board certified " to practice acupuncture. Plus, my

> insurance might cover the complete costs for treatment. Yes, this is a

> major issue for all of us, especially as acupuncture becomes more accepted

> by the public, thereby more profitable for those who would like to get a

> piece of it too.

> As the economy falters, why wouldn't MDs and DCs not want to diversify

> their

> portfolios and dry-needle? Some MDs are now doing house-calls and

> integrative medicine is the hot trend.

> Why wouldn't someone who have never tried acupuncture not want to go to an

> MD for these procedures, especially if they already know them, trust their

> social and professional status (degree) and it's completely covered by

> insurance?

>

> K.

>

> On Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 8:32 PM, Ray Ford

<ray<ray%40rayfordacupuncture.com.au>>wrote:

>

>

> > Yes, well said Richard I could not agree more.

> >

> > It is also up to us to educate our clients as to the differences.

> >

> > I have found that my clients don't like me pointing out that their physio

> > Chiro or Doctor is NOT practicing acupuncture in the TRUE sense and with

> > very limited training or experience(in most cases).They do become

> defensive

> > and think I am being over the top but I persist anyway.

> >

> > Ray

> >

> > _____

> >

> >

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> <Chinese Medicine%40>

> >

[Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chinese_Medicin\

e%40>

> <Chinese Medicine%40>]

> > On Behalf Of

> > acudoc11 <acudoc11%40aol.com> <acudoc11%40aol.com>

> > Tuesday, 30 September 2008 6:57 AM

> > To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> <Chinese Medicine%40>

>

> > Re: Fwd: [PCOM Alumni] Medical Acupuncture Vs. L.Ac.

> > Acupuncture

> >

> > Edith

> >

> > I contend that it should be called something like MEDI-PUNCTURE when used

> > by

> >

> > an MD/DO and

> > of CHIRO-PUNCTURE when administered by the usual 100 hour DC.

> >

> > It is the KNOWLEDGE and CLINICAL TRAINING of the person behind the needle

> > that makes it much more than someone who is untrained or poorly trained

> who

> >

> > just

> > happens to be an MD or DC using acupuncture needles.

> >

> > It is the nomenclature wherein a fraud is perpetrated on the public such

> > that what the untrained perform and bill for is passed off as real

> medical

> > acupuncture and what the well-trained acupuncturists do is relegated to

> > some

> >

> > lesser statuts.

> >

> > One of these days there just might be enough well trained LAc's STAND UP

> to

> >

> > this unscrupulous activity by both the allopathic medical and

> chiropractic

> > communities.

> >

> > We all have heard from those few MDs, DOs and even DCs who went through

> > COMPLETE training who castigate their own professions for trying to fool

> > the

> >

> > public.

> >

> > All of them together ought to be ashamed of themselves and get a real

> > profession by proper EDUCATION.

> >

> > Richard

> >

> > In a message dated 9/29/2008 12:23:41 P.M. Central Daylight Time,

> > chineseherbs@ <chineseherbs%40gmail.com<chineseherbs%2540gmail.com>

> <chineseherbs%2540gmail.com>>

> > gmail.com writes:

> >

> > Hi Joy, Elie, TCM group,

> >

> > May I suggest that we make sure to use *quotes* when using the term

> > " Medical " Acupuncture.

> >

> > This term is utterly ridiculous. If that stuff is called " Medical "

> > acupuncture, is the implication that L.Ac's practicing based on TCM

> > training

> > is somehow " non-medical " acupuncture?

> >

> > That is why I think whenever we refer to that term we should use quotes

> > around " medical " to highlight the absurdity of it.

> >

> > ~edith

> >

> > --

> > Edith Chan, L.Ac.

> >

> > **************Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial

> > challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips

> > and

> > calculators. (http://www.walletpo

> > <http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001>

> > p.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001)

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

kath

 

state by state is totally different.

what may be true for the state you are in certainly does not apply to/in

others.

one would expect that law makers would clearly see that to best protect the

health, welfare and safety of

the public that ONLY well trained practitioners are allowed to practice

acupuncture but that's

not the way the it appears to work.....until there are to many medical

errors as has been the case

for at least regarding pneumothorax caused by those untrained in

acupuncture.

 

richard

 

 

 

In a message dated 10/24/2008 5:04:02 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

acukath writes:

 

 

 

 

richard:

 

you misunderstood my meaning. to exclude md's, chiros, etc from performing

acu, we would need to open our own (acupuncture) practice act, state by

state, and get an exclusion put in that only LAcs can perform acupuncture.

obviously we do not have the political clout to do this. as you stated, we

don't want to risk opening up our own practice act as this would open us up

to a whole can of worms we do not want exploded.

 

kath

 

 

 

 

**************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites,

no registration required and great graphics – check it out!

(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1211202682x1200689022/aol?redir=

http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001)

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

richard:

 

you misunderstood my meaning. to exclude md's, chiros, etc from performing

acu, we would need to open our own (acupuncture) practice act, state by

state, and get an exclusion put in that only LAcs can perform acupuncture.

obviously we do not have the political clout to do this. as you stated, we

don't want to risk opening up our own practice act as this would open us up

to a whole can of worms we do not want exploded.

 

kath

 

On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 11:45 AM, <acudoc11 wrote:

 

> I would have to differ with you Kath.

>

> One does not ever risk opening the acupuncture practice act

> but in FACT lobbies to open the MDs/DOs/DCs practice act to make such

> changes.

>

> Acupuncture Practice Acts do NOT have any legal enforcement over other

> healthcare practitioners.

>

> As this is not legal advice if one is interested CHECK with a lawyer in

> your

> area.

>

> Richard

>

>

>

>

> In a message dated 10/2/2008 12:14:28 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

> acukath <acukath%40gmail.com> writes:

>

> john:

>

> exempting md's and chiros form practicing acu without our level of edu and

> certification isn't going to happen at this point, simply because we do not

> have the political clout to go up against the ama and the chiro assoc. its

> plain numbers: there's a lot more of them then there are of us.

>

> legally, to do this, we would need to open up each state's acu practice act

> individually and get an exemption put in to it saying that only LAc's can

> practice acu. of course the ama and chiro assoc would fight it, and we

> would not be able to get it through.

>

> Chinese Medicine

>

> **************Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial

> challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips

> and

> calculators. (http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001)

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Kath and Richard and All...

I personally have been coming to the conclusion that the research is always

going to come second to the politics - and that the politics is heavily

influenced by public opinion.

While research is able to prove effect (from acupuncture, let's say), this will

do next to nothing for CM theory. There is no way to definitively prove CM

theory. So our final (?) battle will be to protect an unprovable doctrine (kind

of the way science is unprovable and accepted based only on its effects) - and

it won't be science that does the proving. It will be proved in terms of public

acceptance followed by pressure. If the public feels that our theory cannot

provide us with anything of worth, we will lose. If the public feels that our

theory provides us with something invaluable, then they will support us, and the

public pressure will lead to the same results that it has lead to so far -

acceptance of CAM, research into herbs, acupuncture, homeopathy, meditation,

healing by prayer etc. It is important to understand that it is not science that

lead us onto these paths - it was public pressure (their interest in, and use

of, CAM modalities).

So, go back to your clinics, do an absolutely excellent job, understand CM

deeply and transfer that understanding to your patients. Thta's how we will

achieve parity and collaboration.

Parity and Collaboration people!!!

 

Thoughts?

Hugo

 

 

________________________________

Hugo Ramiro

http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org

 

 

 

 

 

________________________________

" "

Chinese Medicine

Friday, 24 October, 2008 17:03:03

Re: Fwd: [PCOM Alumni] Medical Acupuncture Vs. L.Ac. Acupuncture

 

 

richard:

 

you misunderstood my meaning. to exclude md's, chiros, etc from performing

acu, we would need to open our own (acupuncture) practice act, state by

state, and get an exclusion put in that only LAcs can perform acupuncture.

obviously we do not have the political clout to do this. as you stated, we

don't want to risk opening up our own practice act as this would open us up

to a whole can of worms we do not want exploded.

 

kath

 

On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 11:45 AM, <acudoc11 (AT) aol (DOT) com> wrote:

 

> I would have to differ with you Kath.

>

> One does not ever risk opening the acupuncture practice act

> but in FACT lobbies to open the MDs/DOs/DCs practice act to make such

> changes.

>

> Acupuncture Practice Acts do NOT have any legal enforcement over other

> healthcare practitioners.

>

> As this is not legal advice if one is interested CHECK with a lawyer in

> your

> area.

>

> Richard

>

>

>

>

> In a message dated 10/2/2008 12:14:28 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

> acukath (AT) gmail (DOT) com <acukath%40gmail. com> writes:

>

> john:

>

> exempting md's and chiros form practicing acu without our level of edu and

> certification isn't going to happen at this point, simply because we do not

> have the political clout to go up against the ama and the chiro assoc. its

> plain numbers: there's a lot more of them then there are of us.

>

> legally, to do this, we would need to open up each state's acu practice act

> individually and get an exemption put in to it saying that only LAc's can

> practice acu. of course the ama and chiro assoc would fight it, and we

> would not be able to get it through.

>

> Chinese Medicine

>

> ************ **Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial

> challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips

> and

> calculators. (http://www.walletpo p.com/?NCID= emlcntuswall0000 0001)

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hugo

I do not agree, all it takes is a well designed study in which the

treatment group is treated using CM methods with all the needed

flexibility and comparing it to another group either placebo which

includes all the rituals and/or a neuroanatomical approach to

acupuncture. If you can show superior outcomes that support the

theory. Unfortunately we do not a single high quality study that does

this. We do not even have a single high quality study that shows using

acupoints to be superior to sham points

 

 

 

400 29th St. Suite 419

Oakland Ca 94609

 

 

 

alonmarcus

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Alon,

 

I hope you are right ... my understanding is that the feasibility of such large

studies is not good. Large studies with multiple arms and full courses of (T)CM

treatments would be very expensive and difficult to design. Having study

therapists apply CM as it should be - flexibly and according to CM theory -

throws a million uncontrolled variables into the study. The study will end up

showing correlation but no definitive causation. Any skeptic reading it will

riddle it with criticism.

The biggest problem from my point of view is the definitive proof. At least on

the face of it, biomedicine is about definitive proof. Biomedicine is not going

to give up its banner easily - alternative explanations to CM theories will

always be sought - even if they are, in the end, nothing but rewordings of our

theory, co-optation will be a strategy used against CM, as it has been in the

past. It all comes from the initial bias and attitude that only " they " (my

apologies for being divisive) can possibly know what's best or real.

 

What I think I am seeing happen, and what gives me hope, is that there are new,

growing groups of medical clinicians and researchers who are sufficiently aware

of the limitations of research to put it second tier relative to their

experience, and are willing to go forward using simply their awareness and

common sense. Complex " multivariate " interventions are beginning to be

recognised for what they are - impossible, or nearly impossible, to reduce. We

are finally coming out of the cave of single-variable effects, finally moving

from the world of simple machines into the world of organism.

 

As far as showing point specificity (acupoints versus sham points), we do not

need studies for that - neuroimaging has already shown that to be true. We only

need replication and less confusion on the subject. See Cho et al (1998) and the

stupid reason the paper and its conclusions were retracted. Clearly the

neuroscience behind the retraction is not sufficiently compelling since 3 of 8

authors fought the retraction to the end.(http://tinyurl.com/6267rt) That is

essentially half the team disagreeing - we don't know about the firmness of the

tipping point (vote #5). Though any respectable researcher will be cautious in

jumping to conclusions at any time, too many people with loud voices and power

will use this situation as a type of proof. This retraction was very damaging.

 

I prove point specificity in my clinic all the time, not only by knowing that I

can't clear Liver Constraint with GB34 and that I can with Liv3, but also by

showing far superior results to what I should be able to achieve according to

all these acupuncture studies that purport to show the size of the acupuncture

effect. But I rack my brains trying to figure how to transpose clinical reality

into a _punchline_, and I can't seem to do it. And from what I see, nobody else

can either. This is a problem because most (?) people have currently been sold

into believing that the methods of testing used by modern medical science are

the last word, all the while being ignorant of the fact that open heart surgery

can't be tested that way, and neither can parachutes, and yet, we assume we can

judge the effectiveness of each accurately without RCTs.

 

Seems to me that there is something wrong with the system. It has been

improperly tested! I don't think we can use it successfully.

 

I was talking to a " masters of public health " yesterday, and, while she had her

stringency when it came to testing and such, it was not difficult for her to put

it aside and say that too many people she knew reported effects that were too

good from CAM for her to feel secure regarding what she knew to be the state of

research on the subject.

 

While we're at it, for those who haven't watched it, visit

(http://tinyurl.com/6g33kt) for the homeopathy debate, from a materials science

perspective. The links on the right side will take you to parts II and III.

 

Thanks,

Hugo

 

 

________________________________

Hugo Ramiro

http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org

 

 

 

 

 

________________________________

alon marcus <alonmarcus

Chinese Medicine

Saturday, 25 October, 2008 23:57:12

Re: Fwd: [PCOM Alumni] Medical Acupuncture Vs. L.Ac. Acupuncture

 

 

Hugo

I do not agree, all it takes is a well designed study in which the

treatment group is treated using CM methods with all the needed

flexibility and comparing it to another group either placebo which

includes all the rituals and/or a neuroanatomical approach to

acupuncture. If you can show superior outcomes that support the

theory. Unfortunately we do not a single high quality study that does

this. We do not even have a single high quality study that shows using

acupoints to be superior to sham points

 

 

 

400 29th St. Suite 419

Oakland Ca 94609

 

 

www.integrativeheal thmedicine. com

alonmarcus (AT) wans (DOT) net

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hugo its acceptable to put an intervention in a so-called black box

without the need to control variable within it. What you must have is

proper randomization to the different groups, proper placebo or a gold

standard therapy for comparison, proper independent evaluation of

outcome and proper statistics. This study design will pass any review

of a high quality journal and should allow us to have a good study

from CM perspective.

To support a theory that is not understood you need to show that

clinical use of it is superior to similar placebo or gold standard

therapy. We do not have such studies as of now. It is not more

expensive to do this kind of study than any other kind of acupuncture

study because the real intervention within the black box is quite

free. The only problem is the standard of the therapists. To do this

well you need top notch therapists so that part of the study cannot be

used to excuse a poor outcome. As far as neuroimaging the problem is

clinical relevance. The final test in medicine is clinical relevance

so it does not help with issue of point specificity. We have too few

studies suggesting brain specific stimulation from different proximal

areas but this does not support the specificity of acupuncture yet.

Perhaps with more time and greater data.

 

 

 

400 29th St. Suite 419

Oakland Ca 94609

 

 

 

alonmarcus

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hey Alon, this very useful summary will be printed up and placed in my copy of

" Acupuncture Research " .

 

Studying the history of western medicine I have come to believe less in science

and more in political power plays.

 

Thanks for your input,

 

Hugo

 

 

________________________________

Hugo Ramiro

http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org

 

 

 

 

 

________________________________

alon marcus <alonmarcus

Chinese Medicine

Sunday, 26 October, 2008 22:32:46

Re: Fwd: [PCOM Alumni] Medical Acupuncture Vs. L.Ac. Acupuncture

 

 

Hugo its acceptable to put an intervention in a so-called black box

without the need to control variable within it. What you must have is

proper randomization to the different groups, proper placebo or a gold

standard therapy for comparison, proper independent evaluation of

outcome and proper statistics. This study design will pass any review

of a high quality journal and should allow us to have a good study

from CM perspective.

To support a theory that is not understood you need to show that

clinical use of it is superior to similar placebo or gold standard

therapy. We do not have such studies as of now. It is not more

expensive to do this kind of study than any other kind of acupuncture

study because the real intervention within the black box is quite

free. The only problem is the standard of the therapists. To do this

well you need top notch therapists so that part of the study cannot be

used to excuse a poor outcome. As far as neuroimaging the problem is

clinical relevance. The final test in medicine is clinical relevance

so it does not help with issue of point specificity. We have too few

studies suggesting brain specific stimulation from different proximal

areas but this does not support the specificity of acupuncture yet.

Perhaps with more time and greater data.

 

 

 

400 29th St. Suite 419

Oakland Ca 94609

 

 

www.integrativeheal thmedicine. com

alonmarcus (AT) wans (DOT) net