Acupuncture: The Facts - a vitriolic lecture by Imrie, BUell, Ramey & Samson

[Guest guest]

Part of what he said is true. I'm sure there are influence from other part

of the world,

a lot of Chinese herbs are originally coming from India and Arab. Even in

Huang Di Nei Jing

it says, the stone treatment coming from the East, the poison (herbs) coming

from the West,

, Moxibustion coming from the North, Acupuncture coming from the South,

massage is from the Middle.

 

If Dr. Imre can integrate all his findings to a more complete and useful

medical principles than TCM,

why not? Maybe it will be easier to understand to the westerners.

 

But saying most of the TCM books/publishing are made up in the 50's and 60's

is simply ignorant.

He obviously does not know that Taiwan also preserve a lot more TCM

knowledge when KMT government

retreated from China.

 

I don't really think it make too much a difference if there are any physical

evident to support that

Acupuncture is " actually " 2000 years old. So the older the better now? It's

so easy to criticise something

lack of evident (that's why a lot of criminals got away)

 

Acupuncture has always been using gold or silver needles in the past, and

much thicker then today's needles.

That's why there are a lot of forbidden acu points, because thick needles

could cause serious infection

in the old time.

 

I think the result says everything. If it doesn't work, who care where does

it come from?

 

On Sat, Sep 27, 2008 at 7:33 PM, < wrote:

 

> Hi All,

>

> I have just returned from the IVAS Congress at Keystone, CO, USA. It was a

> most enjoyable meeting. However, vets who use AP successfully in their

> practices have powerful opponents who try to discredit their methods.

>

> See http://drspinello.com/altmed/acuvet/acuvet.swf - " Acupuncture: The

> Facts " - a lecture by Robert Imrie DVM (collaborators: Paul Buell PhD,

> David Ramey DVM & Wally Samson MD). This is a vitriolic attack on

> acupuncture, esp veterinary acupuncture.

>

> Their comments will not influence my clinical results with AP.

>

> Best regards,

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Phil,

 

What would you say was the result of this lecture on the seminar

participants? Did they ask questions? Was there any discussion of Dr. Buell,

Ramey, and Samson's presentation?

 

There is much in this presentation that comes from a cultural

misunderstanding (misunderstanding at best, ingnorance and arrogance at

worst) which I believe is a large part of the chasm between proponents and

opponents of CM.

 

Deke Kendall says that " physicians in ancient China developed a total

medical system that has survived virtually unchanged to present times " [Dao

of CM pg.8]. While Volker Scheid describes the constant " plurality " that has

been a part of CM since its earliest times. That which has survived since

ancient times is yin/yang and wu xing (and probably other theories too), but

their applictions are often updated, tested, improved upon and thus they

have flourished. These are two very conflicting takes on the history of CM,

but they're both correct in their own context. These attacks are, in my

opinion mostly removing something from its original context and coloring it

in our own cultural context (eg. equating TCM with *communism* rather than

the healthcare needs of the state, which is not unique to any particular

political system.)

 

It seems like acupuncture is a large target for critics that can ultimately

spill over on to the study and practice of Chinese (herbal) medicine. Do you

believe that Western perceptions of Chinese herbal medicine suffer the same

skepticism in the vet community?

 

On Sat, Sep 27, 2008 at 7:33 PM, < wrote:

 

> See http://drspinello.com/altmed/acuvet/acuvet.swf - " Acupuncture: The

> Facts " - a lecture by Robert Imrie DVM (collaborators: Paul Buell PhD,

> David Ramey DVM & Wally Samson MD). This is a vitriolic attack on

> acupuncture, esp veterinary acupuncture.

>

 

 

 

 

 

--

, DAOM

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Wow... that is a fascinating read!

 

His cynicism is refreshing, in a way.

 

Is the Phillip A.M. Rogers on page 73 you?

 

His central premise seems to be that modern acupuncturists are wrong

in saying that acupuncture has existed in China for 2,000 (or 3,000)

years. His reasoning is that the acupuncture methods described in

historical texts are quite different then the way it is practiced today.

 

I thought the " Do acupuncture points really exist? " section (starting

on page 92) was well written. Lots of good questions there!

 

Does anybody know more about the " 9 channel Western Han figure "

mentioned on page 104?

 

This was nice to see -> (p 111) Q: " what about efficacy? Does

acupuncture 'work'? " A: An appropriate answer might be... does *which*

acupuncture work? And what do you mean by 'work'? "

 

I only read though it quickly, but overall I enjoyed the questions

that were raised and the general attitude of " prove it to me. "

 

However, it was clear that he was not raising those questions with the

goal of getting answers or starting discussion, but rather is trying

to get readers to think that they have been fooled by acupuncturists.

 

The snide comments and quotes taken out of context were also pretty

irritating.

 

Phil, do you know how the authors can be contacted?

 

Regards, Henry

 

< wrote:

 

>

> See http://drspinello.com/altmed/acuvet/acuvet.swf - " Acupuncture:

The

> Facts " - a lecture by Robert Imrie DVM (collaborators: Paul Buell PhD,

> David Ramey DVM & Wally Samson MD). This is a vitriolic attack on

> acupuncture, esp veterinary acupuncture.

[Guest guest]

Hi All,

 

I have just returned from the IVAS Congress at Keystone, CO, USA. It was a

most enjoyable meeting. However, vets who use AP successfully in their

practices have powerful opponents who try to discredit their methods.

 

See http://drspinello.com/altmed/acuvet/acuvet.swf - " Acupuncture: The

Facts " - a lecture by Robert Imrie DVM (collaborators: Paul Buell PhD,

David Ramey DVM & Wally Samson MD). This is a vitriolic attack on

acupuncture, esp veterinary acupuncture.

 

Their comments will not influence my clinical results with AP.

 

Best regards,

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Folks:

The MD is Wallace Sampson not Samson a notorious quackbuster.

See his blog at

http://quackfiles.blogspot.com/2005/03/alternative-universe-by-wallace.html

and other Web pages at

http://www.sram.org/0802/editorial.html

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/08/31/NSGDOIM5RJ1.DTL & type\

=books

Misha Cohen

 

, " "

< wrote:

>

> Hi All,

>

> I have just returned from the IVAS Congress at Keystone, CO, USA. It

was a

> most enjoyable meeting. However, vets who use AP successfully in their

> practices have powerful opponents who try to discredit their methods.

>

> See http://drspinello.com/altmed/acuvet/acuvet.swf - " Acupuncture:

The

> Facts " - a lecture by Robert Imrie DVM (collaborators: Paul Buell PhD,

> David Ramey DVM & Wally Samson MD). This is a vitriolic attack on

> acupuncture, esp veterinary acupuncture.

>

> Their comments will not influence my clinical results with AP.

>

> Best regards,

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Wow. What a misleading, dishonest, hate filled rant! So that passes as

vet med. these days?!? Monday my cat gets a kidney removed - maybe I

need to think twice!

 

My father was mis-diagnosed, and died as a result. (his heart attack

was mistaken for food poisoning)

 

My brother was treated with anti-anxiety meds to help him sleep with

what was diagnosed as bronchitis. He really had CHF and died as a result.

 

I have a permanently scarred and malformed hand as a result of botched

surgery when I was young.

 

My mother nearly died from a series of mis-diagnosis 3 years ago. She

now has ongoing medical problems as the result of a porrly performed

surgery.

 

I guess we have proof that science isn't medicine, so called

'allopathic physicians' are scam artists, and the Roman treadesman

were as good as modern surgeons.

 

And don't forget, recent studies have shown that placebos are just as

effective as actual meds in the treatment of anxiety/depression, and

placebo knee surgeries are 80% as effective as the real thing.

 

But I guess we're the scam artists.

 

LMAO!

 

 

 

 

 

 

, " "

< wrote:

>

> Hi All,

>

> I have just returned from the IVAS Congress at Keystone, CO, USA. It

was a

> most enjoyable meeting. However, vets who use AP successfully in their

> practices have powerful opponents who try to discredit their methods.

>

> See http://drspinello.com/altmed/acuvet/acuvet.swf - " Acupuncture:

The

> Facts " - a lecture by Robert Imrie DVM (collaborators: Paul Buell PhD,

> David Ramey DVM & Wally Samson MD). This is a vitriolic attack on

> acupuncture, esp veterinary acupuncture.

>

> Their comments will not influence my clinical results with AP.

>

> Best regards,

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

This " lecture " is full of fear-it's palpable.

 

So, if acupuncture isn't scientific and doesn't work, why are all those

medical doctors so keen to do it? Maybe Dr. Imrie can educate them with

the " facts " so that they stop encroaching on our profession.

 

Julie

 

 

 

On Behalf Of

Saturday, September 27, 2008 9:33 PM

Pa-l ; Pva-l ;

 

Cc: traditional_Chinese_Medicine

Acupuncture: The Facts - a vitriolic lecture by Imrie,

BUell, Ramey & Samson

 

Hi All,

 

I have just returned from the IVAS Congress at Keystone, CO, USA. It was

a

most enjoyable meeting. However, vets who use AP successfully in their

practices have powerful opponents who try to discredit their methods.

 

See http://drspinello. <http://drspinello.com/altmed/acuvet/acuvet.swf>

com/altmed/acuvet/acuvet.swf - " Acupuncture: The

Facts " - a lecture by Robert Imrie DVM (collaborators: Paul Buell PhD,

David Ramey DVM & Wally Samson MD). This is a vitriolic attack on

acupuncture, esp veterinary acupuncture.

 

Their comments will not influence my clinical results with AP.

 

Best regards,

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Folks:

The MD is Wallace Sampson not Samson a notorious quackbuster.

See his blog at

http://quackfiles.blogspot.com/2005/03/alternative-universe-by-wallace.html

and other Web pages at

http://www.sram.org/0802/editorial.html

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/08/31/NSGDOIM5RJ1.DTL & type\

=books

Misha Cohen

 

Chinese Medicine , " "

< wrote:

>

> Hi All,

>

> I have just returned from the IVAS Congress at Keystone, CO, USA. It

was a

> most enjoyable meeting. However, vets who use AP successfully in their

> practices have powerful opponents who try to discredit their methods.

>

> See http://drspinello.com/altmed/acuvet/acuvet.swf - " Acupuncture:

The

> Facts " - a lecture by Robert Imrie DVM (collaborators: Paul Buell PhD,

> David Ramey DVM & Wally Samson MD). This is a vitriolic attack on

> acupuncture, esp veterinary acupuncture.

>

> Their comments will not influence my clinical results with AP.

>

> Best regards,

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I thought it was a fun read, despite that awful powerpoint come flash

template. Anything can be deconstructed by those with motivation. I don't

have the motivation to do the work he did, and his descontructionism is lost

on me because frankly I don't care if TCM was fabricated from old Flinstones

episodes - as long as it works. So I'll thank him for his labor of hate,

and continue cashing my " traditional Chinese " medicine checks.

 

FTR, I get some great diagnostic info from quackbusters. They present great

detail to try to show how ridiculous alt med people are. Often I can learn

enough from their rants that I can justify continuing with whatever

treatment they're blasting.

 

-Tim Sharpe

 

 

 

 

On Behalf Of

Saturday, September 27, 2008 9:33 PM

Pa-l ; Pva-l ;

 

Cc: traditional_Chinese_Medicine

Acupuncture: The Facts - a vitriolic lecture by Imrie, BUell,

Ramey & Samson

 

Hi All,

 

I have just returned from the IVAS Congress at Keystone, CO, USA. It was a

most enjoyable meeting. However, vets who use AP successfully in their

practices have powerful opponents who try to discredit their methods.

 

See http://drspinello.com/altmed/acuvet/acuvet.swf - " Acupuncture: The

Facts " - a lecture by Robert Imrie DVM (collaborators: Paul Buell PhD,

David Ramey DVM & Wally Samson MD). This is a vitriolic attack on

acupuncture, esp veterinary acupuncture.

 

Their comments will not influence my clinical results with AP.

 

Best regards,