Guest guest Posted August 15, 2008 Report Share Posted August 15, 2008 Many, many thanks to all who weighed in on the topic, especially Phil. I'm finding it all useful to feed back to the chiro in my office (who told me today she thought she could get trained to do this, but why should she with an acupuncturist in her office?) karen > > > </;_ylc=X3oDMTJkbW9tdGd1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzk0OTU5N\ zcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwODE0BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMjE4ODMwOTg5> > > Change settings via the Web > <;_ylc=X3oDMTJmcH\ A3YmEwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzk0OTU5NzcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwODE0BHNlYwNmdHIEc2\ xrA3N0bmdzBHN0aW1lAzEyMTg4MzA5ODk-> > ( ID required) > Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest > <Chinese Medicine-digest ?subject=Email%20Deli\ very:%20Digest> > | Switch format to Traditional > <Chinese Medicine-traditional ?subject=Change%\ 20Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional> > > Visit Your Group > <Chinese Medicine;_ylc=X3oDMTJkcGRqZGp\ uBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzk0OTU5NzcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwODE0BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2h\ wZgRzdGltZQMxMjE4ODMwOTg5> > | Terms of Use <> | > Un > <Chinese Medicine- ?subject=> > > Recent Activity > > * > 3 > New Members > <Chinese Medicine/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJ\ mdDNtZmRmBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzk0OTU5NzcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwODE0BHNlYwN2dGw\ Ec2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEyMTg4MzA5ODk-> > > Visit Your Group > <Chinese Medicine;_ylc=X3oDMTJlcXVnZWF\ uBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzk0OTU5NzcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwODE0BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3Z\ naHAEc3RpbWUDMTIxODgzMDk4OQ--> > > Health > > Asthma Triggers > <http://us.ard./SIG=13rs5kfie/M=493064.12016303.12582636.9706571/D=grph\ ealth/S=1705060814:NC/Y=/EXP=1218838189/L=/B=x9cJAULaX9g-/J=121883098925630\ 9/A=5191949/R=0/SIG=12teb63n5/*http://health./asthma-overview/identifyi\ ng-asthma-triggers/healthwise--aa6768.html> > > How you can > > identify them. > > Meditation and > > Lovingkindness > <http://us.ard./SIG=13r3vhcef/M=493064.12016231.12582634.9706571/D=grph\ ealth/S=1705060814:NC/Y=/EXP=1218838189/L=/B=yNcJAULaX9g-/J=121883098925630\ 9/A=5191951/R=0/SIG=11iiaadso/*http://new./giftoflovingkindness> > > A Group > > to share and learn. > > Best of Y! Groups > > Discover groups > <http://us.ard./SIG=13r2c9rh7/M=493064.12016306.12445698.8674578/D=grph\ ealth/S=1705060814:NC/Y=/EXP=1218838189/L=/B=ydcJAULaX9g-/J=121883098925630\ 9/A=4763762/R=0/SIG=11ou7otip/*http://advision.webevents./bestofgr\ oups/> > > that are the best > > of their class. > > . > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 15, 2008 Report Share Posted August 15, 2008 btw - Phil in particular - is it coincidence that a number of TP, particularly those along the scapula, happen to be on acupuncture points? any theories on that anyone? karen wrote: > Hi Karen, > > > Hi all - I've just been introduced to treating trigger points w > > acupuncture, and I'm just amazed at the results. Immediate pain relief. > > But I'm really unclear on the theory in terms of CM. Can any of you > > enlighten me? How long does relief last? How does it fit in to > > root/branch thinking? How - apart from injury - do people get them, or > > maybe is there underlying deficiency and if so, where? How do you > > treat this kind of pain? > > > > I'm getting into this mostly because the chiropractor who's office I > > treat from was wanting to find an MD to do trigger point injections, > > the idea of which makes my toenails curl. Any and all thoughts welcome. > > Karen > > Trigger Point therapy (TPT) is allied to Neural Therapy (in German: > " Neuraltherapie " ), a German technique developed by Dr Ferdinand Huneke > in 1925 [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neural_therapy > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neural_therapy> ]. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trigger_point > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trigger_point> says: > Trigger points have been a subject of study by a small number of > doctors for > several decades although this has not become part of mainstream medicine. > The existence of tender areas and zones of induration in muscles has been > recognized in medicine for many years and was described as muscular > rheumatism or fibrositis in English; German terms included myogelose and > myalgie. However, there was little agreement about what they meant. > Important work was carried out by J. H. Kellgren at University College > Hospital, London, in the 1930s and, independently, by Michael Gutstein in > Berlin and Michael Kelly in Australia (the latter two workers > continued to > publish into the 1950s and 1960s). Kellgren conducted experiments in > which > he injected saline into healthy volunteers and showed that this gave > rise to > zones of referred extremity pain. > > Today, much treatment of trigger points and their pain complexes are > handled by myofascial trigger point therapists, massage therapists, > physical > therapists, osteopaths, occupational therapists, myotherapists, some > naturopaths, chiropractors, dentists and acupuncturists], and other > hands-on > somatic practitioners who have had experience or training in the field of > neuromuscular therapy (NMT). > > IMO, neither TPT nor Neural Therapy have a direct connection to TCM > because they were developed independently of TCM and without any > concept of acupuncture or Channels. > > The Ahshi points in TCM are of two types: > > (a) local pain points (which are tender on palpation, but do NOT refer > pain or > other S & Ss elsewhere; > > (b) Trigger Points (points that are sensitive to palpation but ALSO > refer pain > or other S & Ss elsewhere; > > Recognition of Ahshi category (b) points [Trigger Points] is a very > recent > development in acupuncture practice, probably not recognised for much > more than 30-40 years. > > Though TPs are best known to maintain pain / spasm, they also can trigger > & maintain autonomic and proprioceptive pathology, and ataxia. > > Those interested in TPs may read the masterly work of Drs Janet Travell & > David Simons, called " Myofascial Pain & Dysfunction: The Trigger Point > Manual (2-Volume Set): > www.amazon.com/Travell-Simons-Myofascial-Pain- > Dysfunction/dp/0683307711 > > Although the original practitioners of Neural Therapy / TPT injected the > points, it is NOT necessary to inject TPs to get excellent results. In > other > words, MANY different techniques, including simple dry-needling, can > elicit > the same clinical result as point injection. > > See: ADVANCES AND INSTRUMENTATION IN DIAGNOSIS AND > TREATMENT OF TRIGGER POINTS IN HUMAN MYOFASCIAL PAIN: > VETERINARY IMPLICATIONS: > med-vetacupuncture.org/english/vet/myofas1.htm > med-vetacupuncture.org/english/vet/myofas2.htm > > Best regards, > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 15, 2008 Report Share Posted August 15, 2008 Hi Karen, Some shiatsu historians would suggest that Dr. Travell met Tokujiro Namikoshi in the mid-1950's or there about, when he began traveling to the U.S. and that his work had some influence on her development of Trigger points. Hence the correlation with acupuncture points. Don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 2008 Report Share Posted August 16, 2008 Hi Karen, > Hi all - I've just been introduced to treating trigger points w > acupuncture, and I'm just amazed at the results. Immediate pain relief. > But I'm really unclear on the theory in terms of CM. Can any of you > enlighten me? How long does relief last? How does it fit in to > root/branch thinking? How - apart from injury - do people get them, or > maybe is there underlying deficiency and if so, where? How do you > treat this kind of pain? > > I'm getting into this mostly because the chiropractor who's office I > treat from was wanting to find an MD to do trigger point injections, > the idea of which makes my toenails curl. Any and all thoughts welcome. > Karen Trigger Point therapy (TPT) is allied to Neural Therapy (in German: " Neuraltherapie " ), a German technique developed by Dr Ferdinand Huneke in 1925 [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neural_therapy ]. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trigger_point says: Trigger points have been a subject of study by a small number of doctors for several decades although this has not become part of mainstream medicine. The existence of tender areas and zones of induration in muscles has been recognized in medicine for many years and was described as muscular rheumatism or fibrositis in English; German terms included myogelose and myalgie. However, there was little agreement about what they meant. Important work was carried out by J. H. Kellgren at University College Hospital, London, in the 1930s and, independently, by Michael Gutstein in Berlin and Michael Kelly in Australia (the latter two workers continued to publish into the 1950s and 1960s). Kellgren conducted experiments in which he injected saline into healthy volunteers and showed that this gave rise to zones of referred extremity pain. Today, much treatment of trigger points and their pain complexes are handled by myofascial trigger point therapists, massage therapists, physical therapists, osteopaths, occupational therapists, myotherapists, some naturopaths, chiropractors, dentists and acupuncturists], and other hands-on somatic practitioners who have had experience or training in the field of neuromuscular therapy (NMT). IMO, neither TPT nor Neural Therapy have a direct connection to TCM because they were developed independently of TCM and without any concept of acupuncture or Channels. The Ahshi points in TCM are of two types: (a) local pain points (which are tender on palpation, but do NOT refer pain or other S & Ss elsewhere; (b) Trigger Points (points that are sensitive to palpation but ALSO refer pain or other S & Ss elsewhere; Recognition of Ahshi category (b) points [Trigger Points] is a very recent development in acupuncture practice, probably not recognised for much more than 30-40 years. Though TPs are best known to maintain pain / spasm, they also can trigger & maintain autonomic and proprioceptive pathology, and ataxia. Those interested in TPs may read the masterly work of Drs Janet Travell & David Simons, called " Myofascial Pain & Dysfunction: The Trigger Point Manual (2-Volume Set): www.amazon.com/Travell-Simons-Myofascial-Pain- Dysfunction/dp/0683307711 Although the original practitioners of Neural Therapy / TPT injected the points, it is NOT necessary to inject TPs to get excellent results. In other words, MANY different techniques, including simple dry-needling, can elicit the same clinical result as point injection. See: ADVANCES AND INSTRUMENTATION IN DIAGNOSIS AND TREATMENT OF TRIGGER POINTS IN HUMAN MYOFASCIAL PAIN: VETERINARY IMPLICATIONS: med-vetacupuncture.org/english/vet/myofas1.htm med-vetacupuncture.org/english/vet/myofas2.htm Best regards, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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