Guest guest Posted August 10, 2008 Report Share Posted August 10, 2008 Can anyone explain the understanding of " Pi " as " Spleen " anatomically or energetically? Where did this begin? The spleen is a lymphatic organ that is integral in blood regeneration (breakdown of erythrocytes), but how did this become the primary organ in digestion in the Chinese medicine sense? In other words, how come Pi doesn't mean Pancreas? Does this understanding originate from the Neijing from measuring weight and length of organs from cadavers? Since this organ is the strangest in translation from " energetic " zang understanding to biomedical physiology, much thanks for any scholarship on this... K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2008 Report Share Posted August 11, 2008 Hi Kokko, Did you read about Dr. Denise Faustman's work as a Harvard Biomedical researcher on diabetes mellitus? This describes her faculty post at Harvard Medical School. She's an MD, PhD. http://www.massgeneral.org/diabetes/faculty_faustman.htm And this describes her discovery: http://www.massgeneral.org/diabetes/%5Claboratory_type1.htm Here's the back story from the NY Times which is interesting as well as provocative. http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/09/health/09diab.html In recent years she's been part of the research to find new stems cells for pancreatic islets. She accidentally discovered in her animal models that they already had pancreatic islet stem cells for producing insulin in their spleens (!!!!) By blocking the autoimmune activity in the diabetic mice, stem cells from their spleens replaced the T-cell destroyed pancreatic islet cells. I've always maintained as a physiology instructor that Western science is very young. There may be many more correlations. I've recently had to change my teaching to accommodate new information about mast cells. They are not from basophils moving from the circulation to the interstitial tissues. They have their origins in the spleen. I've come to admire many of Chinese medicine's observations as empirically relevant to my Western science studies. CM correlates Kidney and sexual function which is supported in Western science if you look at gonad and kidney/adrenal development. My two cents on this subject. Respectfully, Emmanuel Segmen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2008 Report Share Posted August 11, 2008 John, Check out Purpose »Ö, Elation ´î, and the Pancreas ç£ by Dan Bensky, D.O. Where he states, ¡ÈLet us take the pi ç£ as an example. This word is usually translated as Spleen. When we look at the ancient ritual texts the pi that is mentioned in sacrifices seem to be a type of sweetbread. As far as I know the only description of the structure of the pi in the classics is in chapter 42 of the Classic of Difficulties (Nan jing) where as Unshuld translates, ¡ÆThe pi weighs two catties and three ounces. Its flat width is three inches. Its length is five inches. It has a half catty of dispersed fat.¡Ç This description, along with the ritual use, seem to me to fit the racemose pancreas better than the spleen. If we are looking for some overlap between the biomedical and traditional Oriental understandings of the organ, pancreas is also a better fit¡Ä.¡É He goes on to explain more¡Ä - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2008 Report Share Posted August 11, 2008 Jason, Thanks for the passage : http://www.siom.edu/resources/faculty/d-bensky/MAJfall92 Yes, concerning the Earth Zang The Spleen makes a lot of sense for Controlling and Manufacturing Xue (Red pulp of Spleen) and for regulation of Ying (White pulp of Spleen rich in B and T lymphocytes); also look at these psycho-somatic connections from the Ancient Greek and Talmud perspective: " In French <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_language>, spleen refers to a state of pensive sadness or melancholy<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melancholy>. It has been popularized by the poet Charles Baudelaire<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Baudelaire>(1821¨C1867) but was already used before, in particular in the Romantic <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanticism> literature (18th century). The connection between *spleen* (the organ) and *melancholy<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melancholy> * (the temperament) comes from the humoral medicine<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_four_humours>of the ancient Greeks <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greeks>. One of the humours (body fluid) was the black bile<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bile_%28biology%29>, secreted by the spleen organ and associated with melancholy. In contrast, the Talmud <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talmud> (tractate Berachoth 61b) refers to the spleen as the organ of laughter<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laughter>, possibly suggesting a link with the humoral<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humourism>view of the organ. " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spleen but yes, the Pancreas makes a lot more sense in the sense of Earth phase digestive organ... 1. 1st of all, it is* Yellow. *2. It's undisputed Endocrine (glucagon and insulin), Exocrine (pancreatic enzymes) digestive functions 3. The description from the Nanjing seems to fit the pancreas better (Bensky) *Did the French Jesuits translate " Pi " as " Spleen " , because of a euro-centric understanding of the Spleen (as a humoral organ from the Greeks) sharing the same connotation of " melancholy " as the Chinese? It would be fitting and easy for translation. * K. 2008/8/10 > John, > > Check out > > Purpose Ö¾, Elation ϲ, and the Pancreas Æ¢ by Dan Bensky, D.O. > > Where he states, " Let us take the pi Æ¢ as an example. This word is usually > translated as Spleen. When we look at the ancient ritual texts the pi that > is mentioned in sacrifices seem to be a type of sweetbread. As far as I > know > the only description of the structure of the pi in the classics is in > chapter 42 of the Classic of Difficulties (Nan jing) where as Unshuld > translates, 'The pi weighs two catties and three ounces. Its flat width is > three inches. Its length is five inches. It has a half catty of dispersed > fat.' > > This description, along with the ritual use, seem to me to fit > the racemose pancreas better than the spleen. If we are looking for some > overlap between the biomedical and traditional Oriental understandings of > the organ, pancreas is also a better fit¡. " > > He goes on to explain more¡ > > - > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2008 Report Share Posted August 11, 2008 Emmanuel and Yehuda, Thanks for the article and study.... There is definitely a lot which will be revealed over time. Looking forward to the results on the Human study! I'm concerned about the translation of " Pi " to make sure that the ancient Chinese actually meant Spleen or Pancreas. Bensky's article passed on by Jason shines some light on that. Also, if we're talking about the Earth phase zang, the pancreas is yellowish, while the spleen is reddish (filled with blood). If it was French Jesuits who were the first to translate the medical Chinese into French, then the translation of Pi into Spleen, could have been an association of the humoral understanding of Spleen from the Ancient Greek as the melancholic humour with the Chinese understanding of Pi as the zang that can feel melancholic when out of balance. Since this was a popular theme in the French imagination, this might not be so far-fetched. Just a theory. If it's true, then we might have to rewrite the English textbooks.... ha ha. K. On Sun, Aug 10, 2008 at 4:33 PM, Emmanuel Segmen <mrsegmenwrote: > Hi Kokko, > > Did you read about Dr. Denise Faustman's work as a Harvard Biomedical > researcher on diabetes mellitus? This describes her faculty post at Harvard > Medical School. She's an MD, PhD. > http://www.massgeneral.org/diabetes/faculty_faustman.htm > And this describes her discovery: > http://www.massgeneral.org/diabetes/%5Claboratory_type1.htm > Here's the back story from the NY Times which is interesting as well as > provocative. > http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/09/health/09diab.html > > In recent years she's been part of the research to find new stems cells for > pancreatic islets. She accidentally discovered in her animal models that > they already had pancreatic islet stem cells for producing insulin in their > spleens (!!!!) By blocking the autoimmune activity in the diabetic mice, > stem cells from their spleens replaced the T-cell destroyed pancreatic islet > cells. > > I've always maintained as a physiology instructor that Western science is > very young. There may be many more correlations. I've recently had to change > my teaching to accommodate new information about mast cells. They are not > from basophils moving from the circulation to the interstitial tissues. They > have their origins in the spleen. I've come to admire many of Chinese > medicine's observations as empirically relevant to my Western science > studies. CM correlates Kidney and sexual function which is supported in > Western science if you look at gonad and kidney/adrenal development. > > My two cents on this subject. > > Respectfully, > Emmanuel Segmen > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2008 Report Share Posted August 11, 2008 I think that this is a very important discussion. I am curious as to the etymology of the character Yi2, " pancreas. "  I would be curious as to when the term originated, and how it was originally used. Is it a modern term?   If you look at the character, it to this untrained eye it seems to have elements of pi2 (spleen),  mu4 (wood), and gan1(liver).  Whatcha think?  --- On Sun, 8/10/08, wrote: RE: Translation of Spleen in TCM Chinese Medicine Sunday, August 10, 2008, 5:16 PM John, Check out Purpose 志, Elation 喜, and the Pancreas 脾 by Dan Bensky, D.O. Where he states, “Let us take the pi 脾 as an example. This word is usually translated as Spleen. When we look at the ancient ritual texts the pi that is mentioned in sacrifices seem to be a type of sweetbread. As far as I know the only description of the structure of the pi in the classics is in chapter 42 of the Classic of Difficulties (Nan jing) where as Unshuld translates, ‘The pi weighs two catties and three ounces. Its flat width is three inches. Its length is five inches. It has a half catty of dispersed fat.’ This description, along with the ritual use, seem to me to fit the racemose pancreas better than the spleen. If we are looking for some overlap between the biomedical and traditional Oriental understandings of the organ, pancreas is also a better fit….†He goes on to explain more… - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2008 Report Share Posted August 11, 2008 BTW, Jason, on this selection that you quote from Dan Bensky, I may be wrong, but it seems to me that the character for pancreas that is  listed in the title is actually spleen.  --- On Sun, 8/10/08, wrote: RE: Translation of Spleen in TCM Chinese Medicine Sunday, August 10, 2008, 6:31 PM I think that this is a very important discussion. I am curious as to the etymology of the character Yi2, " pancreas. "  I would be curious as to when the term originated, and how it was originally used. Is it a modern term?   If you look at the character, it to this untrained eye it seems to have elements of pi2 (spleen),  mu4 (wood), and gan1(liver).  Whatcha think? www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net  --- On Sun, 8/10/08, <@chinesemed icinedoc. com> wrote: <@chinesemed icinedoc. com> RE: Translation of Spleen in TCM Sunday, August 10, 2008, 5:16 PM John, Check out Purpose 志, Elation 喜, and the Pancreas 脾 by Dan Bensky, D.O. Where he states, “Let us take the pi 脾 as an example. This word is usually translated as Spleen. When we look at the ancient ritual texts the pi that is mentioned in sacrifices seem to be a type of sweetbread. As far as I know the only description of the structure of the pi in the classics is in chapter 42 of the Classic of Difficulties (Nan jing) where as Unshuld translates, ‘The pi weighs two catties and three ounces. Its flat width is three inches. Its length is five inches. It has a half catty of dispersed fat.’ This description, along with the ritual use, seem to me to fit the racemose pancreas better than the spleen. If we are looking for some overlap between the biomedical and traditional Oriental understandings of the organ, pancreas is also a better fit….†He goes on to explain more… - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2008 Report Share Posted August 11, 2008 That is his point! -Jason _____ Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of yehuda frischman Sunday, August 10, 2008 7:40 PM Chinese Medicine RE: Translation of Spleen in TCM BTW, Jason, on this selection that you quote from Dan Bensky, I may be wrong, but it seems to me that the character for pancreas that is listed in the title is actually spleen. --- On Sun, 8/10/08, (AT) (DOT) <%40> com> wrote: (AT) (DOT) <%40> com> RE: Translation of Spleen in TCM Traditional_ <Chinese Medicine%40> Chinese_Medicine Sunday, August 10, 2008, 6:31 PM I think that this is a very important discussion. I am curious as to the etymology of the character Yi2, " pancreas. " I would be curious as to when the term originated, and how it was originally used. Is it a modern term? If you look at the character, it to this untrained eye it seems to have elements of pi2 (spleen), mu4 (wood), and gan1(liver). Whatcha think? www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net --- On Sun, 8/10/08, <@chinesemed icinedoc. com> wrote: <@chinesemed icinedoc. com> RE: Translation of Spleen in TCM Sunday, August 10, 2008, 5:16 PM John, Check out Purpose »Ö, Elation ´î, and the Pancreas ç£ by Dan Bensky, D.O. Where he states, ¡ÈLet us take the pi ç£ as an example. This word is usually translated as Spleen. When we look at the ancient ritual texts the pi that is mentioned in sacrifices seem to be a type of sweetbread. As far as I know the only description of the structure of the pi in the classics is in chapter 42 of the Classic of Difficulties (Nan jing) where as Unshuld translates, ¡ÆThe pi weighs two catties and three ounces. Its flat width is three inches. Its length is five inches. It has a half catty of dispersed fat.¡Ç This description, along with the ritual use, seem to me to fit the racemose pancreas better than the spleen. If we are looking for some overlap between the biomedical and traditional Oriental understandings of the organ, pancreas is also a better fit¡Ä.¡É He goes on to explain more¡Ä - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2008 Report Share Posted August 11, 2008 But that's the character for pi2.  Yi2 is actually pancreas!  --- On Sun, 8/10/08, wrote: RE: Translation of Spleen in TCM Chinese Medicine Sunday, August 10, 2008, 6:43 PM That is his point! -Jason _____ Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine [Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine ] On Behalf Of yehuda frischman Sunday, August 10, 2008 7:40 PM RE: Translation of Spleen in TCM BTW, Jason, on this selection that you quote from Dan Bensky, I may be wrong, but it seems to me that the character for pancreas that is listed in the title is actually spleen. www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net --- On Sun, 8/10/08, (AT) (DOT) <% 40> com> wrote: (AT) (DOT) <% 40> com> RE: Translation of Spleen in TCM Traditional_ <Traditional _Chinese_ Medicine% 40. com> Chinese_Medicine Sunday, August 10, 2008, 6:31 PM I think that this is a very important discussion. I am curious as to the etymology of the character Yi2, " pancreas. " I would be curious as to when the term originated, and how it was originally used. Is it a modern term? If you look at the character, it to this untrained eye it seems to have elements of pi2 (spleen), mu4 (wood), and gan1(liver). Whatcha think? www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net --- On Sun, 8/10/08, <@chineseme d icinedoc. com> wrote: <@chineseme d icinedoc. com> RE: Translation of Spleen in TCM Sunday, August 10, 2008, 5:16 PM John, Check out Purpose 志, Elation 喜, and the Pancreas 脾 by Dan Bensky, D.O. Where he states, “Let us take the pi 脾 as an example. This word is usually translated as Spleen. When we look at the ancient ritual texts the pi that is mentioned in sacrifices seem to be a type of sweetbread. As far as I know the only description of the structure of the pi in the classics is in chapter 42 of the Classic of Difficulties (Nan jing) where as Unshuld translates, ‘The pi weighs two catties and three ounces. Its flat width is three inches. Its length is five inches. It has a half catty of dispersed fat.’ This description, along with the ritual use, seem to me to fit the racemose pancreas better than the spleen. If we are looking for some overlap between the biomedical and traditional Oriental understandings of the organ, pancreas is also a better fit….†He goes on to explain more… - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2008 Report Share Posted August 11, 2008 Exactly! Did you read the article? -Jason _____ Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of yehuda frischman Sunday, August 10, 2008 10:15 PM Chinese Medicine RE: Translation of Spleen in TCM But that's the character for pi2. Yi2 is actually pancreas! --- On Sun, 8/10/08, <@chinesemed <%40Chinese Medicine> icinedoc.com> wrote: <@chinesemed <%40Chinese Medicine> icinedoc.com> RE: Translation of Spleen in TCM Traditional_ <Chinese Medicine%40> Chinese_Medicine Sunday, August 10, 2008, 6:43 PM That is his point! -Jason _____ Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine [Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine ] On Behalf Of yehuda frischman Sunday, August 10, 2008 7:40 PM RE: Translation of Spleen in TCM BTW, Jason, on this selection that you quote from Dan Bensky, I may be wrong, but it seems to me that the character for pancreas that is listed in the title is actually spleen. www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net --- On Sun, 8/10/08, (AT) (DOT) <% 40> com> wrote: (AT) (DOT) <% 40> com> RE: Translation of Spleen in TCM Traditional_ <Traditional _Chinese_ Medicine% 40. com> Chinese_Medicine Sunday, August 10, 2008, 6:31 PM I think that this is a very important discussion. I am curious as to the etymology of the character Yi2, " pancreas. " I would be curious as to when the term originated, and how it was originally used. Is it a modern term? If you look at the character, it to this untrained eye it seems to have elements of pi2 (spleen), mu4 (wood), and gan1(liver). Whatcha think? www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net --- On Sun, 8/10/08, <@chineseme d icinedoc. com> wrote: <@chineseme d icinedoc. com> RE: Translation of Spleen in TCM Sunday, August 10, 2008, 5:16 PM John, Check out Purpose »Ö, Elation ´î, and the Pancreas ç£ by Dan Bensky, D.O. Where he states, ¡ÈLet us take the pi ç£ as an example. This word is usually translated as Spleen. When we look at the ancient ritual texts the pi that is mentioned in sacrifices seem to be a type of sweetbread. As far as I know the only description of the structure of the pi in the classics is in chapter 42 of the Classic of Difficulties (Nan jing) where as Unshuld translates, ¡ÆThe pi weighs two catties and three ounces. Its flat width is three inches. Its length is five inches. It has a half catty of dispersed fat.¡Ç This description, along with the ritual use, seem to me to fit the racemose pancreas better than the spleen. If we are looking for some overlap between the biomedical and traditional Oriental understandings of the organ, pancreas is also a better fit¡Ä.¡É He goes on to explain more¡Ä - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2008 Report Share Posted August 11, 2008 Jason,  I read what you posted from Bensky quoting Unschuld, in which the Nan Jing seems to be anatomically describing the pancreas as Pi rather than the Spleen and  I understand well the implied contention that Pi2 has been mistranslated.  . But my point is that a different character is used for both. My question is what is the origin of the character Yi2, meaning when and what was its first recorded use in medical literature--is it a modern term, or was it also used in classical literature? If it is a modern term, then I understand their and your contention well. But if it was used classically, then we need to rethink this argument.  Respectfully,   --- On Mon, 8/11/08, wrote: RE: Translation of Spleen in TCM Chinese Medicine Monday, August 11, 2008, 4:49 AM Exactly! Did you read the article? -Jason _____ Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine [Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine ] On Behalf Of yehuda frischman Sunday, August 10, 2008 10:15 PM RE: Translation of Spleen in TCM But that's the character for pi2. Yi2 is actually pancreas! www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net --- On Sun, 8/10/08, <@chineseme d <% 40chinesemedicin edoc.com> icinedoc.com> wrote: <@chineseme d <% 40chinesemedicin edoc.com> icinedoc.com> RE: Translation of Spleen in TCM Traditional_ <Traditional _Chinese_ Medicine% 40. com> Chinese_Medicine Sunday, August 10, 2008, 6:43 PM That is his point! -Jason _____ Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine [Traditional _ Chinese_Medicine ] On Behalf Of yehuda frischman Sunday, August 10, 2008 7:40 PM RE: Translation of Spleen in TCM BTW, Jason, on this selection that you quote from Dan Bensky, I may be wrong, but it seems to me that the character for pancreas that is listed in the title is actually spleen. www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net --- On Sun, 8/10/08, (AT) (DOT) <% 40> com> wrote: (AT) (DOT) <% 40> com> RE: Translation of Spleen in TCM Traditional_ <Traditional _Chinese_ Medicine% 40. com> Chinese_Medicine Sunday, August 10, 2008, 6:31 PM I think that this is a very important discussion. I am curious as to the etymology of the character Yi2, " pancreas. " I would be curious as to when the term originated, and how it was originally used. Is it a modern term? If you look at the character, it to this untrained eye it seems to have elements of pi2 (spleen), mu4 (wood), and gan1(liver). Whatcha think? www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net --- On Sun, 8/10/08, <@chineseme d icinedoc. com> wrote: <@chineseme d icinedoc. com> RE: Translation of Spleen in TCM Sunday, August 10, 2008, 5:16 PM John, Check out Purpose 志, Elation 喜, and the Pancreas 脾 by Dan Bensky, D.O. Where he states, “Let us take the pi 脾 as an example. This word is usually translated as Spleen. When we look at the ancient ritual texts the pi that is mentioned in sacrifices seem to be a type of sweetbread. As far as I know the only description of the structure of the pi in the classics is in chapter 42 of the Classic of Difficulties (Nan jing) where as Unshuld translates, ‘The pi weighs two catties and three ounces. Its flat width is three inches. Its length is five inches. It has a half catty of dispersed fat.’ This description, along with the ritual use, seem to me to fit the racemose pancreas better than the spleen. If we are looking for some overlap between the biomedical and traditional Oriental understandings of the organ, pancreas is also a better fit….†He goes on to explain more… - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 2008 Report Share Posted August 12, 2008 Yehuda, Please read the article I posted this morning: " Regarding the characters pi2 and yi2: Pi2 Æ¢, generally translated " spleen " , is an old character, occurring a number of times in texts from the Warring States period (6th-3rd centuries BC), such as Zhuangzi and Mozi. However, it would appear that all these early instances of its use are in a different sense, not a reference to an internal organ; in Zhuangzi for instance it is a substitute for the same character with the " bone " radical replacing the " flesh " radical ÷ and is pronounced bi4, meaning " the thigh " . Wang Li and Dazidian both cite Neijing (2nd-1st centuries BC) as the earliest use of the character in the sense " spleen/pancreas " . It occurs very frequently in Neijing, of course (roughly 130 times in Suwen and 80 in Lingshu), as in practically all subsequent medical works. Yi2 ÒÈ " pancreas " is a more recent character. Dacidian 866c defines it firstly as " the flesh around the spine " , citing Guangyun (1011 AD) as the first occurrence in this sense; and secondly " the pancreas " , citing a work I can't find any information on ¸ñÎï´ÖÕ„. Yiji 294a gives the same two definitions, with Jiyun (1067 AD) cited for the first and the herbal classic Bencao gangmu (1578 AD) for the second. Obviously, the character doesn't occur in Neijing. The alternative form of yi2 ¡¸¼§Å®ÌæÔ¡¹ is not listed in either Wang Li or Dazidian. Dacidian 3923 says that it is an alternative form of ÒÈ, and cites an instance from the northern Wei dynasty (4th-6th centuries AD). " Pi2 was used to describe both the Pancreas (digestion) and Spleen (blood) for reasons written in the article. http://www.hanacumoxa.com/spleen_pancreas.htm K. On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 8:57 AM, wrote: > Jason, > > I read what you posted from Bensky quoting Unschuld, in which the Nan Jing > seems to be anatomically describing the pancreas as Pi rather than the > Spleen and I understand well the implied contention that Pi2 has been > mistranslated. > > . But my point is that a different character is used for both. My > question is what is the origin of the character Yi2, meaning when and > what was its first recorded use in medical literature--is it a modern term, > or was it also used in classical literature? If it is a modern term, then I > understand their and your contention well. But if it was used classically, > then we need to rethink this argument. > > Respectfully, > > > > > > > --- On Mon, 8/11/08, <<%40Chinese Medicine>> > wrote: > > <<%40Chinese Medicine> > > > RE: Translation of Spleen in TCM > To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > Monday, August 11, 2008, 4:49 AM > > Exactly! Did you read the article? > > -Jason > > _____ > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine > [Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine ] On Behalf Of > yehuda > frischman > Sunday, August 10, 2008 10:15 PM > > RE: Translation of Spleen in TCM > > But that's the character for pi2. Yi2 is actually pancreas! > > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net > > --- On Sun, 8/10/08, <@chineseme d > <% <%25> 40chinesemedicin edoc.com> icinedoc.com> > wrote: > > <@chineseme d > <% <%25> 40chinesemedicin edoc.com> icinedoc.com> > > RE: Translation of Spleen in TCM > Traditional_ <Traditional _Chinese_ Medicine% 40. > com> > Chinese_Medicine > Sunday, August 10, 2008, 6:43 PM > > That is his point! > > -Jason > > _____ > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine > [Traditional _ Chinese_Medicine ] On Behalf Of > yehuda > frischman > Sunday, August 10, 2008 7:40 PM > > RE: Translation of Spleen in TCM > > BTW, Jason, on this selection that you quote from Dan Bensky, I may be > wrong, but it seems to me that the character for pancreas that is listed in > the title is actually spleen. > > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net > > --- On Sun, 8/10/08, (AT) (DOT) > <% <%25> 40> com> wrote: > > (AT) (DOT) <% <%25> > 40> com> > RE: Translation of Spleen in TCM > Traditional_ <Traditional _Chinese_ Medicine% 40. > com> > Chinese_Medicine > Sunday, August 10, 2008, 6:31 PM > > I think that this is a very important discussion. I am curious as to the > etymology of the character Yi2, " pancreas. " I would be curious as to when > the term originated, and how it was originally used. Is it a modern term? > If you look at the character, it to this untrained eye it seems to have > elements of pi2 (spleen), mu4 (wood), and gan1(liver). > > Whatcha think? > > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net > > --- On Sun, 8/10/08, <@chineseme d icinedoc. com> > wrote: > > <@chineseme d icinedoc. com> > RE: Translation of Spleen in TCM > > Sunday, August 10, 2008, 5:16 PM > > John, > > Check out > > Purpose Ö¾, Elation ϲ, and the Pancreas Æ¢ by Dan Bensky, D.O. > > Where he states, " Let us take the pi Æ¢ as an example. This word is usually > translated as Spleen. When we look at the ancient ritual texts the pi that > is mentioned in sacrifices seem to be a type of sweetbread. As far as I > know > the only description of the structure of the pi in the classics is in > chapter 42 of the Classic of Difficulties (Nan jing) where as Unshuld > translates, 'The pi weighs two catties and three ounces. Its flat width is > three inches. Its length is five inches. It has a half catty of dispersed > fat.' > > This description, along with the ritual use, seem to me to fit > the racemose pancreas better than the spleen. If we are looking for some > overlap between the biomedical and traditional Oriental understandings of > the organ, pancreas is also a better fit¡. " > > He goes on to explain more¡ > > - > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 2008 Report Share Posted August 12, 2008 The article is wonderful, Kokko! I will study it this evening in depth. Sorry I missed the reference to it this morning.  Thanks so much,  --- On Mon, 8/11/08, <johnkokko wrote: <johnkokko Re: Translation of Spleen in TCM Chinese Medicine Monday, August 11, 2008, 4:45 PM Yehuda, Please read the article I posted this morning: " Regarding the characters pi2 and yi2: Pi2 脾, generally translated " spleen " , is an old character, occurring a number of times in texts from the Warring States period (6th-3rd centuries BC), such as Zhuangzi and Mozi. However, it would appear that all these early instances of its use are in a different sense, not a reference to an internal organ; in Zhuangzi for instance it is a substitute for the same character with the " bone " radical replacing the " flesh " radical é«€ and is pronounced bi4, meaning " the thigh " . Wang Li and Dazidian both cite Neijing (2nd-1st centuries BC) as the earliest use of the character in the sense " spleen/pancreas " . It occurs very frequently in Neijing, of course (roughly 130 times in Suwen and 80 in Lingshu), as in practically all subsequent medical works. Yi2 胰 " pancreas " is a more recent character. Dacidian 866c defines it firstly as " the flesh around the spine " , citing Guangyun (1011 AD) as the first occurrence in this sense; and secondly " the pancreas " , citing a work I can't find any information on æ ¼ç‰©ç²—è«‡. Yiji 294a gives the same two definitions, with Jiyun (1067 AD) cited for the first and the herbal classic Bencao gangmu (1578 AD) for the second. Obviously, the character doesn't occur in Neijing. The alternative form of yi2 「姬女替月〠is not listed in either Wang Li or Dazidian. Dacidian 3923 says that it is an alternative form of 胰, and cites an instance from the northern Wei dynasty (4th-6th centuries AD). " Pi2 was used to describe both the Pancreas (digestion) and Spleen (blood) for reasons written in the article. http://www.hanacumo xa.com/spleen_ pancreas. htm K. On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 8:57 AM, >wrote: > Jason, > > I read what you posted from Bensky quoting Unschuld, in which the Nan Jing > seems to be anatomically describing the pancreas as Pi rather than the > Spleen and I understand well the implied contention that Pi2 has been > mistranslated. > > . But my point is that a different character is used for both. My > question is what is the origin of the character Yi2, meaning when and > what was its first recorded use in medical literature-- is it a modern term, > or was it also used in classical literature? If it is a modern term, then I > understand their and your contention well. But if it was used classically, > then we need to rethink this argument. > > Respectfully, > > > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net > > > --- On Mon, 8/11/08, <@chinesemed icinedoc. com<%40chinese medicinedoc. com>> > wrote: > > <@chinesemed icinedoc. com<%40chinese medicinedoc. com> > > > RE: Translation of Spleen in TCM > <Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine %40. com> > Monday, August 11, 2008, 4:49 AM > > Exactly! Did you read the article? > > -Jason > > _____ > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine > [Traditional _ Chinese_Medicine ] On Behalf Of > yehuda > frischman > Sunday, August 10, 2008 10:15 PM > > RE: Translation of Spleen in TCM > > But that's the character for pi2. Yi2 is actually pancreas! > > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net > > --- On Sun, 8/10/08, <@chineseme d > <% <%25> 40chinesemedicin edoc.com> icinedoc.com> > wrote: > > <@chineseme d > <% <%25> 40chinesemedicin edoc.com> icinedoc.com> > > RE: Translation of Spleen in TCM > Traditional_ <Traditional _Chinese_ Medicine% 40. > com> > Chinese_Medicine > Sunday, August 10, 2008, 6:43 PM > > That is his point! > > -Jason > > _____ > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine > [Traditional _ Chinese_Medicine ] On Behalf Of > yehuda > frischman > Sunday, August 10, 2008 7:40 PM > > RE: Translation of Spleen in TCM > > BTW, Jason, on this selection that you quote from Dan Bensky, I may be > wrong, but it seems to me that the character for pancreas that is listed in > the title is actually spleen. > > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net > > --- On Sun, 8/10/08, (AT) (DOT) > <% <%25> 40> com> wrote: > > (AT) (DOT) <% <%25> > 40> com> > RE: Translation of Spleen in TCM > Traditional_ <Traditional _Chinese_ Medicine% 40. > com> > Chinese_Medicine > Sunday, August 10, 2008, 6:31 PM > > I think that this is a very important discussion. I am curious as to the > etymology of the character Yi2, " pancreas. " I would be curious as to when > the term originated, and how it was originally used. Is it a modern term? > If you look at the character, it to this untrained eye it seems to have > elements of pi2 (spleen), mu4 (wood), and gan1(liver). > > Whatcha think? > > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net > > --- On Sun, 8/10/08, <@chineseme d icinedoc. com> > wrote: > > <@chineseme d icinedoc. com> > RE: Translation of Spleen in TCM > > Sunday, August 10, 2008, 5:16 PM > > John, > > Check out > > Purpose å¿—, Elation å–œ, and the Pancreas 脾 by Dan Bensky, D.O. > > Where he states, " Let us take the pi 脾 as an example. This word is usually > translated as Spleen. When we look at the ancient ritual texts the pi that > is mentioned in sacrifices seem to be a type of sweetbread. As far as I > know > the only description of the structure of the pi in the classics is in > chapter 42 of the Classic of Difficulties (Nan jing) where as Unshuld > translates, 'The pi weighs two catties and three ounces. Its flat width is > three inches. Its length is five inches. It has a half catty of dispersed > fat.' > > This description, along with the ritual use, seem to me to fit > the racemose pancreas better than the spleen. If we are looking for some > overlap between the biomedical and traditional Oriental understandings of > the organ, pancreas is also a better fit…. " > > He goes on to explain more… > > - > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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