Pulse rate as compared to inhalation/exhalation

[Guest guest]

Dear Group,

 

I was wondering if anyone here has any PRACTICAL experience (not

interested in opinions or theory about this topic without practical

experience to back it up!) on counting the pulse rate the classical way

using the patient's breathing cycle to determine whether it's slow or

fast.

 

Ie normal pulse : 2 beats to one inhalation, 2 beats to one exhalation

and one beat in between exhalation/inhalation. That is 5 beats pr. 1

breathing cycle. 6 beats and more suggests a Heat / Yang / Fu disorder

and 4 beats and less suggests a Cold / Yin / Zang disorder.

 

I often find that a pulse determined to be slow (fast) using a watch is

not always slow (fast) when comparing to the patient's breathing cycle.

Treatment of Heat/Cold based on the breathing cycle tends to create - at

least for me - much better results - which indicates a more correct

differentation of patterns. Anyone with same or differing results?

 

It is probably important to notice that I use non-insertional needling

95% of the time.

 

Best regards,

 

Thomas

 

--

Althea Akupunktur

Albanigade 23A, kld.

5000 Odense C

Denmark

 

Tlf.: 31 25 92 26

http://www.ditlivditpotentiale.dk

 

RAB: 2006059

CVR: 27322646

 

Frøslev Mollerup Sparekasse

Reg.: 9133

Konto: 2050409

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Thomas,

Since no one is chiming in on this one...

 

I would suggest asking the Pulse Diagnosis spearheaded by Will

Morris.

They go through very detailed analysis of the pulses on that .

 

Also, you can read Shudo Denmei's experience about pulse counting with

breathing from his book,

" Japanese Classical Acupuncture: Introduction to Meridian Therapy " pgs.

82-83

He had over 40 years of experience and only writes about what he practiced.

He discusses counting the patient's breaths

vs counting the practitioner's breaths vs counting the clock.

 

Do you take your patients pulses with them lying down?

How do you count their breaths accurately?

K.

 

 

 

On Thu, Aug 7, 2008 at 11:29 PM, Thomas Sørensen <

> wrote:

 

> Dear Group,

>

> I was wondering if anyone here has any PRACTICAL experience (not

> interested in opinions or theory about this topic without practical

> experience to back it up!) on counting the pulse rate the classical way

> using the patient's breathing cycle to determine whether it's slow or

> fast.

>

> Ie normal pulse : 2 beats to one inhalation, 2 beats to one exhalation

> and one beat in between exhalation/inhalation. That is 5 beats pr. 1

> breathing cycle. 6 beats and more suggests a Heat / Yang / Fu disorder

> and 4 beats and less suggests a Cold / Yin / Zang disorder.

>

> I often find that a pulse determined to be slow (fast) using a watch is

> not always slow (fast) when comparing to the patient's breathing cycle.

> Treatment of Heat/Cold based on the breathing cycle tends to create - at

> least for me - much better results - which indicates a more correct

> differentation of patterns. Anyone with same or differing results?

>

> It is probably important to notice that I use non-insertional needling

> 95% of the time.

>

> Best regards,

>

> Thomas

>

> --

> Althea Akupunktur

> Albanigade 23A, kld.

> 5000 Odense C

> Denmark

>

> Tlf.: 31 25 92 26

> http://www.ditlivditpotentiale.dk

>

> RAB: 2006059

> CVR: 27322646

>

> Frøslev Mollerup Sparekasse

> Reg.: 9133

> Konto: 2050409

>

>

[Guest guest]

John,

 

>> Do you take your patients pulses with them lying down?

 

Yes I do. I practice Keiraku Chiryu and checking the pulses of both

patients' hands simultaneously gives better results with this style of

Acupuncture. I find it easier to get comparative strength and quality of

the pulses this way and since I am checking pulses continuously it is

also the most practical way. Also my mentor in Japan she practices this

way.

 

>> How do you count their breaths accurately?

 

It's very rarely possible to count the beat accurately since this

requires the patient's pulse to be 100% regular - I have yet to see

that... However what I do is I start my count at the first beat as the

patient starts inhaling, counting through exhalation and stop my count

in the break between exhalation and inhalation just before the patient

begins a new round of counting - watching the patient's abdomen is

crucial to pick the right moment. I count for ten breathing cycles and

calculate an average of beats pr. breath.

 

The irregularities I am talking abour are the usual intermittent,

skipping, etc, but also the beat will vary from breathingcycle to

breathing cycle sometimes with several beats. Also irregularities of

breathing/pulse beat relations. Standard is set at 2 beats pr.

inhalation (corresponding to Liv -> Kid), 2 beats pr. exhalation

(corresponding to Ht -> Lu) and 1 beat between exhalation and inhalation

(corresponding to Sp).

 

This is important in diagnosis since it tells a lot about the

organ/channel system(s) involved in and whether there's a combination of

Hot and Cold patterns.

 

An example:

 

Female patient of 56 (6 years post menopause) complaints:

 

Spontaneous sweating, difficulty breathing in, poor appetite, runny

nose, allergic resonse to cat, Icy cold hands and feet and " shedding

flesh.

 

Red unclear complexion with a lot of dark dark red Spider Nevi on both

cheeks, Blueish Black circle on the nosetip, looks a little bit like a

dry stick, Her Shen and general energy level seems good

Abdomen: in general: Mushy tending towards cold, no other specific

findings.

 

Pulse is thin, wiry, sinking, hard and deficient - Pulse rate against

the clock: 73 bpm - not a particularly fast pulse. The pulse rate is

average 6-7 beats pr. breathing cycle which is rather fast and - of

course - indicates a Heat condition.

 

She was treated with minor progress in symptoms by herbs for a couple of

months simultaneously receiveing app. 12 acupuncture treatments for

Liver and Kid Yang deficiency with Cold by another practitioner.

 

Breaking down the pulse beats in relation to breath gave a clue to why

she hadn't responded to treatment. The break down revealed 1 beat pr.

inhalation, 1 beat pr. exhalation and 4-5 pr. break between exhalation

and inhalation. This corresponds to the beginning of " injury " as

described in NanJing - Difficulty 14. A Yin/Cold condition as determined

by pulse rate being comparatively slow on the inhalation as well as on

the exhalation - difficulty on inhalation pointed towards a Liver/Kidney

deficiency. The symptoms alongside the many beats at the break between

exhalation points towards a pattern of Spleen Yin deficiency with Empty

Heat with a secondary pattern of Kid Yang def with Cold.

 

Three acupuncture treaments cleared all symptoms.

 

Definitely a case where the pulse rate and it's irregularities meant the

difference to pattern differentation and treatment outcome.

 

Btw I love applying NanJing theory - it is so darn practical

 

Best regards,

 

Thomas

 

 

 

> K.

>

> On Thu, Aug 7, 2008 at 11:29 PM, Thomas Sørensen <

> > wrote:

>

> > Dear Group,

> >

> > I was wondering if anyone here has any PRACTICAL experience (not

> > interested in opinions or theory about this topic without practical

> > experience to back it up!) on counting the pulse rate the classical

> way

> > using the patient's breathing cycle to determine whether it's slow

> or

> > fast.

> >

> > Ie normal pulse : 2 beats to one inhalation, 2 beats to one

> exhalation

> > and one beat in between exhalation/inhalation. That is 5 beats pr. 1

> > breathing cycle. 6 beats and more suggests a Heat / Yang / Fu

> disorder

> > and 4 beats and less suggests a Cold / Yin / Zang disorder.

> >

> > I often find that a pulse determined to be slow (fast) using a watch

> is

> > not always slow (fast) when comparing to the patient's breathing

> cycle.

> > Treatment of Heat/Cold based on the breathing cycle tends to create

> - at

> > least for me - much better results - which indicates a more correct

> > differentation of patterns. Anyone with same or differing results?

> >

> > It is probably important to notice that I use non-insertional

> needling

> > 95% of the time.

> >

> > Best regards,

> >

> > Thomas

> >

> > --

> > Althea Akupunktur

> > Albanigade 23A, kld.

> > 5000 Odense C

> > Denmark

> >

> > Tlf.: 31 25 92 26

> > http://www.ditlivditpotentiale.dk

> >

> > RAB: 2006059

> > CVR: 27322646

> >

> > Frøslev Mollerup Sparekasse

> > Reg.: 9133

> > Konto: 2050409

> >

> >