Guest guest Posted May 12, 2005 Report Share Posted May 12, 2005 Anton, As you mentioned with yin and yang, for everything gained there is something lost. Many of my physician friends complain about their loss of freedom to insurance companies and HMO's, and the pressure to stick to conservative and conventional protocols in practice. Many physicians admire the relative freedom of practice that acupuncturists, naturopaths and chiropractors have. An M.D. friend of mine had to endure a long, painful and expensive lawsuit because he practiced homeopathy with patients. If he was a naturopath, nothing of the sort would have occurred. Practicing conventional medicine in America has become a very expensive undertaking with little independence, many years of schooling and residency, and many years paying off student loans. I don't know about you, but I feel a great deal of freedom in my work. I think the D.O. example you give is true, but what is the point if the osteopath is not practicing osteopathy. By the time one gets through conventional medical school indoctrination, how many people can maintain a different outlook on medicine from the conventional biomedical one? Freedom is in the eyes of the beholder. On May 12, 2005, at 12:50 PM, Anton Borja wrote: > I believe integration is inevitable and > good(optimist). So I have taken myself back to > school, and have almost completed a 2nd Bachelors in > Biology, and hope to make it into a DO school sometime > in the next year or two. With a solid background in > medicine, I will be able to practice what I want, > whenever and wherever I want, not becoming dependent > on the political and philosophical whims and biases of > others. And through this foundation I can be a true > physician of medicine(using all the tools in the > medicine bag to help my patients get BETTER, whether > it be needles, herbs, stem cells, pharmaco, etc). > I now step off the soap box and leave it to others.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2005 Report Share Posted May 12, 2005 strictly about the fundamental teachings of their medicine as espoused by their founder Andrew Still, and the " Broad Osteopaths " -those who believed in 'integrating' their medicine with the Allopathic modalities of the time(surgery, materia medica, obstetrics, etc.) >>>>>Interesting since Still never taught " technique " was an MD and used surgery etc in his practice.He believed in teaching principles. Oakland, CA 94609 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2005 Report Share Posted May 13, 2005 Zev, I think freedom is important but would stipulate that all licensed practitioners are not free. I have found that many stories also support our own run ins with the legal system. Legal precedent seems to looking at us as if we are " medical providers " and not some fringe group. As for expense, my education in acu school was costly to say the least. I would also say look at catalogs for ND, DC and MD/DO and you will see comparable tuition rates. Alternative education is not less expensive and all of these groups is participating in medical care and research. I think we need to look at the first two groups and how they have become part of mainstream healthcare. By the way, this does not mean that we practice " medical acupuncture " or become them. Practitioners trained in China do not seem to have such a bias as we do. I think we need to become more inclusive and stop trying to shut out other info and understanding. We can be who we are and understand and include other forms of info as well. We are not one dimensional are we? Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " " <zrosenbe > > >Re: History repeats itself >Thu, 12 May 2005 18:43:52 -0700 > >Anton, >As you mentioned with yin and yang, for everything gained there is >something lost. > >Many of my physician friends complain about their loss of freedom to >insurance companies and HMO's, and the pressure to stick to >conservative and conventional protocols in practice. Many physicians >admire the relative freedom of practice that acupuncturists, >naturopaths and chiropractors have. An M.D. friend of mine had to >endure a long, painful and expensive lawsuit because he practiced >homeopathy with patients. If he was a naturopath, nothing of the >sort would have occurred. > >Practicing conventional medicine in America has become a very >expensive undertaking with little independence, many years of >schooling and residency, and many years paying off student loans. > >I don't know about you, but I feel a great deal of freedom in my >work. I think the D.O. example you give is true, but what is the >point if the osteopath is not practicing osteopathy. By the time one >gets through conventional medical school indoctrination, how many >people can maintain a different outlook on medicine from the >conventional biomedical one? > >Freedom is in the eyes of the beholder. > > >On May 12, 2005, at 12:50 PM, Anton Borja wrote: > > > I believe integration is inevitable and > > good(optimist). So I have taken myself back to > > school, and have almost completed a 2nd Bachelors in > > Biology, and hope to make it into a DO school sometime > > in the next year or two. With a solid background in > > medicine, I will be able to practice what I want, > > whenever and wherever I want, not becoming dependent > > on the political and philosophical whims and biases of > > others. And through this foundation I can be a true > > physician of medicine(using all the tools in the > > medicine bag to help my patients get BETTER, whether > > it be needles, herbs, stem cells, pharmaco, etc). > > I now step off the soap box and leave it to others.. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 14, 2005 Report Share Posted May 14, 2005 >>>>>Interesting since Still never taught " technique " was an MD and used surgery etc in his practice.He believed in teaching principles. Right..Still actually resolved, to a degree, the early debate by essentially saying his students should be trained in surgery and obstetrics(modalities Still himself was trained in)to be able to help their patients in any scenario, and also to literally not look incompetent in the eyes of patients. But the Broad osteopaths wanted more scope of practice and wanted to incorporate the MDs materia medica in their practice which Still fought against till the end, but the Broad DOs won in the end. ...Infinite gratitude to all things past.. ....Infinite respect to all things present... .....Infinite responsibility to all things future.... ......Tao..... Discover Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM and more. Check it out! http://discover./online.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 14, 2005 Report Share Posted May 14, 2005 No, I don't think we are 'one dimensional'. I just think our foundations in Chinese medical theory as spelled out in the Nei Jing, Nan Jing, Shang Han Lun and other classics is very weak profession- wise, so what are we integrating new information to, if the foundation is so weak? Every generation has had new commentaries to update the applications of classical theory. Again, it is not the technology that is the key, it is the theory. It doesn't matter if one uses herbs, needles, supplements, drugs or surgery, as long as one is able to apply Chinese medical theory in clinical practice. I would also add that Chinese practitioners do not have as much exposure to eclectic methods as we do in the West. It isn't just Chinese and Western medicine, as in China, there is also Ayurvedic, homeopathy, naturopathy and many other healing methods. On May 13, 2005, at 6:31 AM, mike Bowser wrote: > Practitioners trained in China do not > seem to have such a bias as we do. I think we need to become more > inclusive > and stop trying to shut out other info and understanding. We can > be who we > are and understand and include other forms of info as well. We are > not one > dimensional are we? > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 15, 2005 Report Share Posted May 15, 2005 Zev, I understand and completely agree with you about the need for better traditional knowledge but the real question as I see it is how to make this stronger as well as better integrating ourselves into mainstream healthcare. These are two separate but important issues especially since the results of the current CA bill 233 could bring down the house and make it illegal for us to diagnose and treat any health condition or person. I see no other way to interpret such an obvious amendment. Please feel free to read about it, you can go to www.acupuncturetoday.com and check out their link to it. If it walks like a duck and quacks, then most likely it is a duck. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " " <zrosenbe > > >Re: History repeats itself >Sat, 14 May 2005 20:40:24 -0700 > >No, I don't think we are 'one dimensional'. I just think our >foundations in Chinese medical theory as spelled out in the Nei Jing, >Nan Jing, Shang Han Lun and other classics is very weak profession- >wise, so what are we integrating new information to, if the >foundation is so weak? Every generation has had new commentaries to >update the applications of classical theory. Again, it is not the >technology that is the key, it is the theory. It doesn't matter if >one uses herbs, needles, supplements, drugs or surgery, as long as >one is able to apply Chinese medical theory in clinical practice. > >I would also add that Chinese practitioners do not have as much >exposure to eclectic methods as we do in the West. It isn't just >Chinese and Western medicine, as in China, there is also Ayurvedic, >homeopathy, naturopathy and many other healing methods. > > > >On May 13, 2005, at 6:31 AM, mike Bowser wrote: > > > Practitioners trained in China do not > > seem to have such a bias as we do. I think we need to become more > > inclusive > > and stop trying to shut out other info and understanding. We can > > be who we > > are and understand and include other forms of info as well. We are > > not one > > dimensional are we? > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 15, 2005 Report Share Posted May 15, 2005 Again, it is not the technology that is the key, it is the theory. >>>>>>I have to agree here. I think however there is much to say for TCM education as compared to classic education if one looks at clinical outcome as the gauge of support and success.This style is well represented mainstream CM in mainland and by blue poppy and can be practiced at high degree of sophistication. If an individual has the inclination or interest for classic med he/she can do some additional postgrad study beyond basic SHL, etc., studies. If the schools are not to graduate practitioners that can easily integrate within the main medical system then any aspiring CM practitioner is better off without a license. The education they need can be obtained for a lot cheaper than it would cost to go to the current schools; they will not be bound by the laws restricting their practice by acupuncture laws, and if they setup their practices as privet clubs, they can do acupuncture or any other medical intervention without worry of the medical act or acupuncture laws. Also,Zev,in mainland there is much influence from other styles of medicine, even when not openly admitted. In Japan there is much influence from German " alternative " med. Oakland, CA 94609 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 15, 2005 Report Share Posted May 15, 2005 Alon, Even CA makes it illegal to practice w/o a license. Please check the statute for clarification. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " " <alonmarcus > > >Re: History repeats itself >Sun, 15 May 2005 09:31:12 -0700 > > Again, it is not the >technology that is the key, it is the theory. > >>>>>>I have to agree here. I think however there is much to say for TCM >education as compared to classic education if one looks at clinical outcome >as the gauge of support and success.This style is well represented >mainstream CM in mainland and by blue poppy and can be practiced at high >degree of sophistication. If an individual has the inclination or interest >for classic med he/she can do some additional postgrad study beyond basic >SHL, etc., studies. If the schools are not to graduate practitioners that >can easily integrate within the main medical system then any aspiring CM >practitioner is better off without a license. The education they need can >be obtained for a lot cheaper than it would cost to go to the current >schools; they will not be bound by the laws restricting their practice by >acupuncture laws, and if they setup their practices as privet clubs, they >can do acupuncture or any other medical intervention without worry of the >medical act or acupuncture laws. >Also,Zev,in mainland there is much influence from other styles of medicine, >even when not openly admitted. In Japan there is much influence from German > " alternative " med. > > > > >Oakland, CA 94609 > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 15, 2005 Report Share Posted May 15, 2005 Its about collecting money not just the practice. Under a privet club you can do surgery without a license Oakland, CA 94609 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 15, 2005 Report Share Posted May 15, 2005 Alon, I beg to differ on this one and ask you to please explain why this concept would be ranked higher than the acupuncture laws. Just for the record here are some of the first parts of the CA law off of the CAB website. As I understand it any practice without a valid license or in an approved educational program is illegal. This seems to be in direct conflict with what you are stating. 4935. (a) (1) It is a misdemeanor, punishable by a fine of not less than one hundred dollars ($100) and not more than two thousand five hundred dollars ($2,500), or by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year, or by both that fine and imprisonment, for any person who does not hold a current and valid license to practice acupuncture under this chapter or to hold himself or herself out as practicing or engaging in the practice of acupuncture. (b) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, any person, other than a physician and surgeon, a dentist, or a podiatrist, who is not licensed under this article but is licensed under Division 2 (commencing with Section 500), who practices acupuncture involving the application of a needle to the human body, performs any acupuncture technique or method involving the application of a needle to the human body, or directs, manages, or supervises another person in performing acupuncture involving the application of a needle to the human body is guilty of a misdemeanor. (d) Subdivision (a) shall not prohibit a person from administering acupuncture treatment as part of his or her educational training if he or she: (1) Is engaged in a course or tutorial program in acupuncture, as provided in this chapter; or (2) Is a graduate of a school of acupuncture approved by the board and participating in a postgraduate review course that does not exceed one year in duration at a school approved by the board. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " " <alonmarcus > > >Re: History repeats itself >Sun, 15 May 2005 15:06:52 -0700 > >Its about collecting money not just the practice. Under a privet club you >can do surgery without a license > > > > >Oakland, CA 94609 > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 15, 2005 Report Share Posted May 15, 2005 Mike I am not a layer and have also not looked into this issue in depth but know others that have. Apparently members of privet clubs can " agree " to do things to each other that would otherwise be illegal. While you are allowed to have donations made to the club you cannot charge for any services. Anyway what do you get if charged with a misdemeanor? Would still be much cheaper than school Oakland, CA 94609 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 15, 2005 Report Share Posted May 15, 2005 Jail time, fines and a record. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " " <alonmarcus > > >Re: History repeats itself >Sun, 15 May 2005 17:29:58 -0700 > >Mike I am not a layer and have also not looked into this issue in depth but >know others that have. Apparently members of privet clubs can " agree " to do >things to each other that would otherwise be illegal. While you are allowed >to have donations made to the club you cannot charge for any services. >Anyway what do you get if charged with a misdemeanor? Would still be much >cheaper than school > > > > > >Oakland, CA 94609 > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 15, 2005 Report Share Posted May 15, 2005 I would seriously question those that make statements that circumvent statutes. This makes no sense as there would be no reason for licensing then. I have seen several state laws that contain a provision that makes it a criminal offense to perform the procedure regardless of fees or clubs. If no license then no legal practice. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " " <alonmarcus > > >Re: History repeats itself >Sun, 15 May 2005 17:29:58 -0700 > >Mike I am not a layer and have also not looked into this issue in depth but >know others that have. Apparently members of privet clubs can " agree " to do >things to each other that would otherwise be illegal. While you are allowed >to have donations made to the club you cannot charge for any services. >Anyway what do you get if charged with a misdemeanor? Would still be much >cheaper than school > > > > > >Oakland, CA 94609 > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2005 Report Share Posted May 16, 2005 Jail time >>>>For a misdemeanor? Oakland, CA 94609 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2005 Report Share Posted May 16, 2005 Here is what the CA statute says, you decide. " punishable by a fine of not less than one hundred dollars ($100) and not more than two thousand five hundred dollars ($2,500), or by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year, or by both that fine and imprisonment, for any person who does not hold a current and valid license to practice acupuncture under this chapter... " Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " " <alonmarcus > > >Re: History repeats itself >Mon, 16 May 2005 07:46:08 -0700 > >Jail time > >>>>For a misdemeanor? > > > >Oakland, CA 94609 > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2009 Report Share Posted February 8, 2009 From Natural News In 1942, German intelligence officers rounded up skilled Jewish prisoners and launched Operation Bernhardt, a clever scheme designed to counterfeit hundreds of millions of dollars worth of British Pounds and destroy the British economy by flooding it with counterfeit money. Located in the Sachsenhausen concentration camp, Operation Bernhardt was, even by modern standards, a runaway success that resulted in the creation of forged bank notes worth 132 million British Pounds. Today, in America, the Federal Reserve is doing the exact same thing by flooding the U.S. economy with counterfeit dollars. But we're not talking about a few hundred million dollars here: The Federal Reserve is engaged in an economic carpet bombing campaign involving the counterfeiting of TRILLIONS of dollars. Read my true, historical report of the similarities between the Federal Reserve and Operation Bernhardt: http://www.naturaln ews.com/024427. html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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