Guest guest Posted October 22, 2008 Report Share Posted October 22, 2008 In general it is not really appropriate to 'stop bleeding'. I surely agree, bleeding, like tears, is a way the body rids itself of harmful things. But when it can't stop itself, we try to help. .. " SO I agree with Z'ev, proper differential diagnosis is probably the key here. " Absolutely. You guys are at the top of this field. You are the ones, when everything else fails, it comes to your lap. The patient is averse to modern western tests and treatments, and her insurance probably wont cover the art we love. So, ghetto medicine, tcm, is what we can bring to the mass. It really is like that still. Cheap, effective, at the heart of things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2008 Report Share Posted October 22, 2008 Wow.. I have never thought of CM as cheap... I find that in most places in the West, CM is for the rich (most people pay out of pocket). Herbs and acu are very pricey. It is a shame, since in China you can see a top doctor with 50+ years experience for about $3. I estimate the average price in the US is about $70 a treatment. The herbs I bought last week in China (3 bags) was only $3.30. However if bleeding does not stop it is my opinion that it is your ethical obligation to make your patient see a Western medical practitioner. It all comes down to the way you present it to the patient that will determine if they will follow through. As in your patient's case, most of my patients do not like nor go to Western medical doctors. But in such a case, I will make sure they go, even if I have to make the phone call and set up an appointment. I used to be less forceful, until about 3 years ago I recommended such a referral for a patient and they did not go, six months later they had cancer. Now I am very direct. Just recently I referred out for a virtual colonoscopy. In the middle of the fibroid they found cancerous tumor. They caught it before it broke out. Virtual colonoscopies are a nice way to go for those that feel the mainstream colonoscopies is too harsh. This awareness and referral initiative is even more important when one is acting a primary care physician. Finally, bleeding may happen for a multitude of reasons. One type may be to rid itself of something harmful (i.e. heat), but also you may bleed due to weakness. In this case your body is not riding yourself of anything but nutrients. This is why blanket stop bleeding formulas are a bad idea without knowing the diagnosis. My 2 cents... - ykcul_ritsym Wednesday, October 22, 2008 9:17 AM Chinese Medicine Re: bleeding In general it is not really appropriate to 'stop bleeding'. I surely agree, bleeding, like tears, is a way the body rids itself of harmful things. But when it can't stop itself, we try to help. .. " SO I agree with Z'ev, proper differential diagnosis is probably the key here. " Absolutely. You guys are at the top of this field. You are the ones, when everything else fails, it comes to your lap. The patient is averse to modern western tests and treatments, and her insurance probably wont cover the art we love. So, ghetto medicine, tcm, is what we can bring to the mass. It really is like that still. Cheap, effective, at the heart of things. -- Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.2/1738 - Release 10/21/2008 2:10 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 24, 2008 Report Share Posted October 24, 2008 Wow.. I have never thought of CM as cheap. - I agree, where I live, 60 bucks a treatment is normal. For someone to spend that every week, is not going to happen so much, they just don't have it. I just ask to pay what you can, that's what I meant by cheap, and try to make my bills doing other technical work. For a long time, I wanted to have a free clinic, that would survive on donations, just to reach people who need it most. Maybe someday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 24, 2008 Report Share Posted October 24, 2008 All too often people will easily spend 60 bucks for a meal, or getting their hair done, or their nails, or an evening at a bar. People have no problem dropping huge bucks for exterior appearance but balk at taking care of their health, which they are convinced someone else should pay for or is their right. We need to stop apologizing for charging money for the work that we do. No one was there to help pay for our schooling, which now can easily end up putting new practitioners in six figure debt. This idea that we need to treat everybody is part of the reason that so many graduates and license holders are not even working in the field anymore. Charge what you are worth. The patients will pay. If they are unable to, it is their responsibility to bring up the issue with you, the practitioner. Then it is up to you to give them a break or not. Don't sell yourselves short. We are doctors and until we start to think of ourselves in this light, we will always play second fiddle. Douglas Knapp Doctoral Fellow, L.Ac. Full Moon Acupuncture 1600 York Avenue New York, NY 10028 212-734-1459 ________________________________ mystir <ykcul_ritsym Chinese Medicine Thursday, October 23, 2008 7:23:47 PM Re: Re: bleeding Wow.. I have never thought of CM as cheap. - I agree, where I live, 60 bucks a treatment is normal. For someone to spend that every week, is not going to happen so much, they just don't have it. I just ask to pay what you can, that's what I meant by cheap, and try to make my bills doing other technical work. For a long time, I wanted to have a free clinic, that would survive on donations, just to reach people who need it most. Maybe someday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 24, 2008 Report Share Posted October 24, 2008 You're right Douglas, this art is unique and special and useful. Maybe I should develop a thicker skin. --- On Thu, 10/23/08, Douglas Knapp <knappneedleman wrote: Douglas Knapp <knappneedleman Re: Re: bleeding Chinese Medicine Thursday, October 23, 2008, 7:35 PM All too often people will easily spend 60 bucks for a meal, or getting their hair done, or their nails, or an evening at a bar. People have no problem dropping huge bucks for exterior appearance but balk at taking care of their health, which they are convinced someone else should pay for or is their right. We need to stop apologizing for charging money for the work that we do. No one was there to help pay for our schooling, which now can easily end up putting new practitioners in six figure debt. This idea that we need to treat everybody is part of the reason that so many graduates and license holders are not even working in the field anymore. Charge what you are worth. The patients will pay. If they are unable to, it is their responsibility to bring up the issue with you, the practitioner. Then it is up to you to give them a break or not. Don't sell yourselves short. We are doctors and until we start to think of ourselves in this light, we will always play second fiddle. Douglas Knapp Doctoral Fellow, L.Ac. Full Moon Acupuncture 1600 York Avenue New York, NY 10028 212-734-1459 ____________ _________ _________ __ mystir <ykcul_ritsym@ > Thursday, October 23, 2008 7:23:47 PM Re: Re: bleeding Wow.. I have never thought of CM as cheap. - I agree, where I live, 60 bucks a treatment is normal. For someone to spend that every week, is not going to happen so much, they just don't have it. I just ask to pay what you can, that's what I meant by cheap, and try to make my bills doing other technical work. For a long time, I wanted to have a free clinic, that would survive on donations, just to reach people who need it most. Maybe someday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 24, 2008 Report Share Posted October 24, 2008 Hi All: : Wow.. I have never thought of CM as cheap. Mystir: I agree, where I live, 60 bucks a treatment is normal. For someone to spend that every week, is not going to happen so much, they just don't have it. I just ask to pay what you can, that's what I meant by cheap, and try to make my bills doing other technical work. For a long time, I wanted to have a free clinic, that would survive on donations, just to reach people who need it most. Maybe someday. I completely disagree. CM is an incredibly cheap intervention, even at $80 an hour which is what I currently charge. A patient reported to me that, as a visa student, not covered under OHIP (Ontario's socialised medicare plan), she had to pay for an office visit out of pocket when she had stomach pain. This is what happened: An appointment that lasted just over five minutes. A prescription written out for a general painkiller. A warning that if her pain continued she would need an operation. A 40 dollar fee for this " medicine " . She didn't fill out the prescription which would have run her another 20 bucks because she was so unimpressed by the treatment. (Her stomach pain continued for another week, she found me, I treated her one time for $40 (half an hour treatment), and her pain resolved completely.) Some parts of the Ontario fee schedules for Doctors (all numbers are CAD $): Report, Initial 43.40 Report, Progress 26.70 Complicated Consultations 69.50 Research Fee 31.30 And to start putting it in perspective: Telephone Consultation a. first ten minutes 31.30 b. each additional 15 min 41.70 Complex Report 112.10 Review of Medical Records / Medical Literature a. for each 15 min or greater part thereof 56.05 Chaperone Fee a. per 15 minutes 57.90 CardioPulmonary Medical Consultation 694.50 time in excess of 3 hours (per hour) 231.50 is very cheap. We haven't even got into the technological aspect of western medicine. If we can spend 500 dollars (or less) helping someone avoid conventional treatment for a recluse spider bite abscess, then we have saved the whole system thousands of dollars, if not more. Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org mystir <ykcul_ritsym Chinese Medicine Thursday, 23 October, 2008 19:23:47 Re: Re: bleeding Wow.. I have never thought of CM as cheap. - I agree, where I live, 60 bucks a treatment is normal. For someone to spend that every week, is not going to happen so much, they just don't have it. I just ask to pay what you can, that's what I meant by cheap, and try to make my bills doing other technical work. For a long time, I wanted to have a free clinic, that would survive on donations, just to reach people who need it most. Maybe someday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 1, 2010 Report Share Posted May 1, 2010 Hi I am 48 years old, my period's bleeding has enhanced and for every 3 weeks instead of 4 weeks. Could you help me Naval Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2010 Report Share Posted May 2, 2010 Sounds like your going through the change. I did this for 6 months then no more periods. Donna ACS Hi I am 48 years old, my period's bleeding has enhanced and for every 3 weeks instead of 4 weeks. Could you help me Naval Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2010 Report Share Posted May 2, 2010 You could be pre-menopausal. - naval navalism herbal remedies Saturday, May 01, 2010 6:34 AM {Herbal Remedies} bleeding Hi I am 48 years old, my period's bleeding has enhanced and for every 3 weeks instead of 4 weeks. Could you help me Naval Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.814 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2848 - Release 05/01/10 11:27:00 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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