Guest guest Posted November 23, 2000 Report Share Posted November 23, 2000 , " Michael Buyze " <mbuyze@h...> wrote: > > Does anyone have any knowledge of or experience with this procedure > (please explain rationale)? It is done to see how much the patient can handle in order to achieve the maximum dosage level without side effects. However, it is somewhat suspect in that even if the pateint can handle say 3000 mg without loose stool, it is unlikely that they can absorb more than 250-500 g at a time anyway. the rest is excreted with urine. and From a TCM perspective, I know of > some concern for spleen qi with megadoses of vitamin C (cold & damp, > I assume)....What is the groups experience with patients who megadose on vitamin C? cold and drying, actually, I think and many others concur. It lowers fever like heat clearing herbs. It inhibits virus and bacteria, decrease lymph swelling, so it is similar to herbs like ban lan gen, perhaps. My experience with patients is that it does not effectively protect from wind invasions and it may contribute to making a cold pathogen latent if used after invasion. Is there something published on this that I can look to? try Flaws " something old, something new " It may be indicated in chronic heat and toxin conditions but the patient should also receive herbs that address their whole complex of patterns to prevent damage to spleen qi. It is also useful in high fever and wind heat. but as noted in earlier posts, I think most colds start as wind cold and cold substances do not promote, but rather may inhibit wei qi, so use preventively is suspect in TCM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2000 Report Share Posted November 23, 2000 on 11/23/00 2:22 PM, at wrote: > > and From a TCM perspective, I know of >> some concern for spleen qi with megadoses of vitamin C (cold & damp, >> I assume)....What is the groups experience with patients who megadose on >> vitamin C? > > cold and drying, actually, I think and many others concur. It lowers > fever like heat clearing herbs. It inhibits virus and bacteria, > decrease lymph swelling, so it is similar to herbs like ban lan gen, > perhaps. My experience with patients is that it does not effectively > protect from wind invasions and it may contribute to making a cold > pathogen latent if used after invasion. I'd add to this the sour nature of vitamin C. . . .which astringes, and, like bai shao, may supplement the ying qi, but doesn't disperse or supplement the wei qi. This would definately contribute to cold latency if used in a wind/cold attack. I have seen many patients who use vitamin C to treat or avoid colds succeed in reducing symptoms, but aggravate interior cold, and perhaps contribute to yang vacuity. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2000 Report Share Posted November 23, 2000 on 11/23/00 12:37 PM, Michael Buyze at mbuyze wrote: > I have a patient who is seeing a physician who does alot of > nutritional and vitamin supplements. The patient says he wants to do > a " Vitamin C Challenge " with her. As she understands it, this > involves hourly doses of vitamin C until a loose, watery stool > occurs. The plan is to then back off to 75% the cumulative dose it > took to get there and keep her on that for maintenance. > > My questions to the group are: > > Does anyone have any knowledge of or experience with this procedure > (please explain rationale)? and From a TCM perspective, I know of > some concern for spleen qi with megadoses of vitamin C (cold & damp, > I assume). Is there something published on this that I can look to? > What is the groups experience with patients who megadose on vitamin C? > > I do have some influence with this physician, but do not want to > approach him until I know what I am talking about. > > Thanks in advance for your input. > > Michael Buyze Michael, Now that there have been some responses to the nature of vitamin C in other postings, I have a question for you: What is this physician attempting to accomplish with this patient? What is the purpose of a vitamin C " challenge " ? What is her constitution, condition, and/or disorder? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2000 Report Share Posted November 23, 2000 , " " <zrosenberg@e...> wrote: > Michael, > Now that there have been some responses to the nature of vitamin C in > other postings, I have a question for you: > > What is this physician attempting to accomplish with this patient? What is > the purpose of a vitamin C " challenge " ? What is her constitution, > condition, and/or disorder? > > The physician in question referred this patient to me for acupuncture to treat her neck, shoulder and elbow pain. I am working with partial recollection as I am at home and her chart is at this physician's office (where I do the acupuncture treatments). With regard to her pain I have diagnosed it as damp bi as it is effected by damp weather, she typically has toothmarks on her tongue and her pulse is slippery. Her tongue is most often normal to pale in color and sometimes has a red tip or red papules. The coat is thin, white, moist and scant near the tip when red. The acupuncture treatments have been providing relief lasting until she hits a stressful week at work. For some reason the 2nd and 4th weeks of every month are such. I am not sure why the physician is using vitamin C. But, I don't believe it is related to common colds. I have worked with this doctor for a few of weeks now and am just beginning to sort through his treatment protocols. He is typically using alot of vitamins and supplements with people and I have done very little herbally in his clinic because I am not clear on the effects of all the products he is using. I am just getting to the point where I can say " Before you start her on the Vitamin C, let me run this by the herb group to see what this will do to her from a TCM perspective. " He's waiting and now I have more work to do to dig into this patient's complete history. (Which I will be doing next week). Not sure how much you can do with this info, but since you asked... Thanks for the assistance. Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2000 Report Share Posted November 24, 2000 Dear Michael, Your patient appear to be a spleen problem with arthritis with minor heat in her heart, I think she often feel heavy and tired, she need " gui pi wan & Anshen buxin wan add cinnamon 5gr " Nhung Ta - Michael Buyze <mbuyze Thursday, November 23, 2000 9:58 PM Re: Vitamin C > , " " > <zrosenberg@e...> wrote: > > Michael, > > Now that there have been some responses to the nature of vitamin > C in > > other postings, I have a question for you: > > > > What is this physician attempting to accomplish with this patient? > What is > > the purpose of a vitamin C " challenge " ? What is her constitution, > > condition, and/or disorder? > > > > > > The physician in question referred this patient to me for acupuncture > to treat her neck, shoulder and elbow pain. > > I am working with partial recollection as I am at home and her chart > is at this physician's office (where I do the acupuncture > treatments). > > With regard to her pain I have diagnosed it as damp bi as it is > effected by damp weather, she typically has toothmarks on her tongue > and her pulse is slippery. Her tongue is most often normal to pale in > color and sometimes has a red tip or red papules. The coat is thin, > white, moist and scant near the tip when red. > > The acupuncture treatments have been providing relief lasting until > she hits a stressful week at work. For some reason the 2nd and 4th > weeks of every month are such. > > I am not sure why the physician is using vitamin C. But, I don't > believe it is related to common colds. I have worked with this doctor > for a few of weeks now and am just beginning to sort through his > treatment protocols. He is typically using alot of vitamins and > supplements with people and I have done very little herbally in his > clinic because I am not clear on the effects of all the products he > is using. I am just getting to the point where I can say " Before you > start her on the Vitamin C, let me run this by the herb group to see > what this will do to her from a TCM perspective. " He's waiting and > now I have more work to do to dig into this patient's complete > history. (Which I will be doing next week). > > Not sure how much you can do with this info, but since you asked... > > Thanks for the assistance. > > Michael > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2000 Report Share Posted November 24, 2000 David, What sort of problems are u anticipating w/ Ester-C? ann > Hi Michael, > > You can do this (it's called " bowel tolerance " ) but obviously not with > qi or yang deficiency. There are some reasonable therapuetic arguments > for this (none of them TCM). The main caveat I'd have (other than > energetic) is to make sure that the patient is not taking " Esther-C " > which is not released by the body as quickly as other types of vitamin C > and may cause problems. > > David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2000 Report Share Posted November 24, 2000 Hi Michael, You can do this (it's called " bowel tolerance " ) but obviously not with qi or yang deficiency. There are some reasonable therapuetic arguments for this (none of them TCM). The main caveat I'd have (other than energetic) is to make sure that the patient is not taking " Esther-C " which is not released by the body as quickly as other types of vitamin C and may cause problems. David Michael Buyze wrote: > > I have a patient who is seeing a physician who does alot of > nutritional and vitamin supplements. The patient says he wants to do > a " Vitamin C Challenge " with her. As she understands it, this > involves hourly doses of vitamin C until a loose, watery stool > occurs. The plan is to then back off to 75% the cumulative dose it > took to get there and keep her on that for maintenance. > > My questions to the group are: > > Does anyone have any knowledge of or experience with this procedure > (please explain rationale)? and From a TCM perspective, I know of > some concern for spleen qi with megadoses of vitamin C (cold & damp, > I assume). Is there something published on this that I can look to? > What is the groups experience with patients who megadose on vitamin C? > > I do have some influence with this physician, but do not want to > approach him until I know what I am talking about. > > Thanks in advance for your input. > > Michael Buyze > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. > > -- ************************* David Leonard, L.Ac. Medicine at your Feet 808.573.3600 http://www.medicineatyourfeet.com Herbal Apprenticeship Program and Distance Learning Healing Vacations / Hawaiian Adventure Programs Advanced Herbal Training for Acupuncturists Acupuncture, Bodywork, & Qigong (Chinese Yoga) Subscribe to our newsletter: http://www.medicineatyourfeet.com/.html Join our discussion group: herbalmedicine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 26, 2000 Report Share Posted November 26, 2000 My current understanding: although cooling, high amounts have a warming effect, thus used for poor circulation. Increases wei qi/ decreasing ext. patho factors. for w-h use lower doses w-c use higher doses. (2grams+) bioflavinoids cool bld. (good for when patho is moving in) also affects pure yang of st. (promotes fluid of st to move into area of face. (esp. oral cavity) long-term consumption of mega-doses of synthetic vit-c is not recommended... - Thursday, November 23, 2000 2:23 PM Re: Vitamin C , " Michael Buyze " <mbuyze@h...> wrote: > > Does anyone have any knowledge of or experience with this procedure > (please explain rationale)? It is done to see how much the patient can handle in order to achieve the maximum dosage level without side effects. However, it is somewhat suspect in that even if the pateint can handle say 3000 mg without loose stool, it is unlikely that they can absorb more than 250-500 g at a time anyway. the rest is excreted with urine. and From a TCM perspective, I know of > some concern for spleen qi with megadoses of vitamin C (cold & damp, > I assume)....What is the groups experience with patients who megadose on vitamin C? cold and drying, actually, I think and many others concur. It lowers fever like heat clearing herbs. It inhibits virus and bacteria, decrease lymph swelling, so it is similar to herbs like ban lan gen, perhaps. My experience with patients is that it does not effectively protect from wind invasions and it may contribute to making a cold pathogen latent if used after invasion. Is there something published on this that I can look to? try Flaws " something old, something new " It may be indicated in chronic heat and toxin conditions but the patient should also receive herbs that address their whole complex of patterns to prevent damage to spleen qi. It is also useful in high fever and wind heat. but as noted in earlier posts, I think most colds start as wind cold and cold substances do not promote, but rather may inhibit wei qi, so use preventively is suspect in TCM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 26, 2000 Report Share Posted November 26, 2000 I think you might be right Jason. But I think it gets cold again after 6-9 grams. If you've ever had the experience, it's unmistakable when it hits. David wrote: > My current understanding: > > although cooling, high amounts have a warming effect, thus used for poor > circulation. > Increases wei qi/ decreasing ext. patho factors. > for w-h use lower doses > w-c use higher doses. (2grams+) > bioflavinoids cool bld. (good for when patho is moving in) > also affects pure yang of st. (promotes fluid of st to move into area of > face. (esp. oral cavity) > long-term consumption of mega-doses of synthetic vit-c is not recommended... > > - > > > > Thursday, November 23, 2000 2:23 PM > > Re: Vitamin C > > , " Michael Buyze " <mbuyze@h...> > wrote: > > > > > Does anyone have any knowledge of or experience with this procedure > > (please explain rationale)? > > It is done to see how much the patient can handle in order to achieve > the maximum dosage level without side effects. However, it is somewhat > suspect in that even if the pateint can handle say 3000 mg without > loose stool, it is unlikely that they can absorb more than 250-500 g at > a time anyway. the rest is excreted with urine. > > and From a TCM perspective, I know of > > some concern for spleen qi with megadoses of vitamin C (cold & damp, > > I assume)....What is the groups experience with patients who megadose on > vitamin C? > > cold and drying, actually, I think and many others concur. It lowers > fever like heat clearing herbs. It inhibits virus and bacteria, > decrease lymph swelling, so it is similar to herbs like ban lan gen, > perhaps. My experience with patients is that it does not effectively > protect from wind invasions and it may contribute to making a cold > pathogen latent if used after invasion. > > Is there something published on this that I can look to? > > try Flaws " something old, something new " > > It may be indicated in chronic heat and toxin conditions but the > patient should also receive herbs that address their whole complex of > patterns to prevent damage to spleen qi. It is also useful in high > fever and wind heat. but as noted in earlier posts, I think most colds > start as wind cold and cold substances do not promote, but rather may > inhibit wei qi, so use preventively is suspect in TCM > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. > > -- ************************* David Leonard, L.Ac. Medicine at your Feet 808.573.3600 http://www.medicineatyourfeet.com Herbal Apprenticeship Program and Distance Learning Healing Vacations / Hawaiian Adventure Programs Advanced Herbal Training for Acupuncturists Acupuncture, Bodywork, & Qigong (Chinese Yoga) Subscribe to our newsletter: http://www.medicineatyourfeet.com/.html Join our discussion group: herbalmedicine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2010 Report Share Posted March 5, 2010 I saw in a post that you can make your own Vitamin C, but could not find the recipe in the files. Can someone direct me to it? Katherine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2010 Report Share Posted March 5, 2010 Katherine, Dehydrate organic orange peels and then powder them with a coffee grinder.It's great stuff ! mary tadadzn wrote: I saw in a post that you can make your own Vitamin C, but could not find the recipe in the files. Can someone direct me to it? Katherine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2010 Report Share Posted March 6, 2010 will that work for lemons and grapefruit too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2010 Report Share Posted March 6, 2010 Lorinda, Yes it would work but orange peel is the tastiest ! Mary lorinda kiddy wrote: will that work for lemons and grapefruit too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2010 Report Share Posted March 6, 2010 Organic Solutions Volume 4 Issue 4 Vitamin C OK! OK! OK! So you just found out that almost all of the Vitamin Boys are making their Vitamin-C from Genetically Engineered Corn. What you are about to read is highly confidential and there’s not one Giant Pharmaceutical Company that wants you to see this data. What! You exclaim. How am I supposed to get enough Vitamin C into my family if I don't buy store bought supplements??? Answer: You make your own!!! This secret, even the Health Food Stores don't want you know. You can make your very own Vitamin C supplement that is 10 times better than anything you could buy in a store at NO EXTRA COST TO YOU! YES! IT'S FREE!!! Does it have a 1,000 Mg of Vitamin C per dosage? NOPE! Does it have the US RDA amount per dosage? No way Jose! Has it been approved by the FDA? Absolutely Not! Well - what does it have then Doc??? It has live enzymes that allow the Vitamin C to be 100% assimilated into your body. It has its own natural source of Rutin, Hesperidin, and Bioflavonoids. It's easily acquired and easy to make and even tastes absolutely awesome! C'mon Doc! Knock off the suspense and tell one and all what this miracle source is! ------------------------------ It's Orange & Lemon Peels! That's right. Just plain ordinary Orange or Lemon peels left over from the ORGANIC Oranges and Lemons you usually buy at the store will do the trick. Save all of your peels after you eat the inside of the fruit and cut them into thin strips. Place on a plate on your dining room table and let dry at room temperature for a couple of days until dry and crisp. Break up into smaller pieces and mix with your favorite tea (makes the tea taste great, but this approach will destroy the enzymes because of the heat). Better yet, place the peel strips into your coffee grinder and grind into a powder (won't hurt the enzymes) and use to mix with your early morning drink. One rounded teaspoon will supply you with more Organic Vitamin-C Complex, Rutin, Hesperidin, & Bioflavonoids than your body needs for the day regardless of your size. A rounded teaspoon of fresh homemade citrus peel powder mixed in your blender with some fresh organic apple juice tastes awesome. Get even more creative and add some of your favorite fruit to the mixture. Yours in Knowledge, Health and Freedom, Ian “Doc” Shillington N.D. (Retired) On 3/4/2010 7:56 PM, tadadzn wrote: I saw in a post that you can make your own Vitamin C, but could not find the recipe in the files. Can someone direct me to it? Katherine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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