Bone cancer

[Guest guest]

, Eti Domb <etidomb> wrote:

> Her pulses are soggy and damp and snake like on the

> upper and middle jiao positions on the right side.

 

" Snake like " ? Can you explain? Do you mean choppy, thready, wiry,

moves side to side? Aredia is often given when breast cancer has

metastasized to the bone. Is this part of her history, too?

 

> She feels the pain in her left rib and shoulder.

 

Were these the tumor sites of her bone cancer?

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

Eti,

You might want to look at some of Miki Shimi's work with cancer. Where did the cancer start. Dr. Shimi has a line of herbs with Springwind. He also uses the divergent channels and akibani technique with cancer patients.

 

P.S. Hope you are doing well. I'm in Colorado

Lornae Hinson

[Guest guest]

Can you post a link to Miki Shima's line of herbs? I didn't find

them when searching Spring Wind.

 

 

 

 

, CLornae@a... wrote:

> You might want to look at some of Miki Shimi's work with cancer.

Where did the cancer start. Dr. Shimi has a line of herbs with

Springwind. He also uses the divergent channels and akibani

technique with cancer patients.

>

> P.S. Hope you are doing well. I'm in Colorado

> Lornae Hinson

[Guest guest]

Miki Shima spoke at the Pacific College Syposium in 98, 99 and 2000.

In the Syposium handout book he has lots and lots of formulas listed for

different types of Cancer's, also with point prescriptions.

 

 

Teresa Hall

-

" jramholz " <jramholz

 

Sunday, July 07, 2002 6:24 PM

Re: bone cancer

 

 

> Can you post a link to Miki Shima's line of herbs? I didn't find

> them when searching Spring Wind.

>

>

>

>

> , CLornae@a... wrote:

> > You might want to look at some of Miki Shimi's work with cancer.

> Where did the cancer start. Dr. Shimi has a line of herbs with

> Springwind. He also uses the divergent channels and akibani

> technique with cancer patients.

> >

> > P.S. Hope you are doing well. I'm in Colorado

> > Lornae Hinson

>

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing

in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services,

including board approved online continuing education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks.

 

 

, " Teresa Hall "

<Teresa.bodywork4u@w...> wrote:

> Miki Shima spoke at the Pacific College Syposium in 98, 99 and

2000.

> In the Syposium handout book he has lots and lots of formulas

listed for

> different types of Cancer's, also with point prescriptions.

>

>

> Teresa Hall

> -

> " jramholz " <jramholz>

>

> Sunday, July 07, 2002 6:24 PM

> Re: bone cancer

>

>

> > Can you post a link to Miki Shima's line of herbs? I didn't find

> > them when searching Spring Wind.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > , CLornae@a... wrote:

> > > You might want to look at some of Miki Shimi's work with

cancer.

> > Where did the cancer start. Dr. Shimi has a line of herbs with

> > Springwind. He also uses the divergent channels and akibani

> > technique with cancer patients.

> > >

> > > P.S. Hope you are doing well. I'm in Colorado

> > > Lornae Hinson

> >

> >

> >

> > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

healthcare

> practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics

specializing

> in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional

services,

> including board approved online continuing education.

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

To whomever initially asked this question:

 

In the text Anti-Cancer Medicinal Herbs, by Chang Minyi, Published in 1986

by Hunan Science and Technology Publishing, there are a number of herbs and

formulas specifically recommended for osteosarcoma and osteocarcinoma: the

singles are:

 

Herba Aristolochia Mollissimae, Bittern (a magnesium rich substance),

Concha Ostreae, Fructus Crataegi, Herba Agrimoniae, Cortex Dictamni,

Scolopendra, Squama Manitis, Sargassum, Salmiacum, Radix Astragali,

Periostracum Serpentis.

 

One specific formula listed for osteocytoma is:

 

Concha Ostrea 90g

Spica Prunella 30g

Herba Dendrobii 30 g

Radix Polygoni Multi 30g

Fructus Logustri Lucidi 30g

Cortex Eucommia 30g

Radix Angelica Sinensis 30

Atractylodis Macro 30g

Astragali 30g

Ossis Mastadi 30g

Rhizoma Scirpi 15g

Olibanum 15g

Myrrha 15g

Radix Rehmannia 15g (probably sheng di)

Mel 500g

 

The herbs are simmered into a paste and 2-3 tsp are taken 3-5 times per day.

 

There was no reference for the formula, although some of the formulas are

referenced to different Chinese journals.

 

There are a number of formulas for specific types of bone cancer and Concha

Ostrea (Mu li) seems to be a common thread among the formulas. Xu duan was

also in a number of them, although not in the one listed above. From

looking at the formulas it seems that yin xu is a predominant diagnosis.

 

Stephen

> >

> >

 

 

 

Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing

in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services,

including board approved online continuing education.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Stephen:

 

This formula would be very good to address the underlying yin

depletion aspect of this case as you indicate; but only partially to

address the cancer itself. Because this formula is for tonification,

stronger anti-cancer herbs are required if the patient is not in

remission. Or, you can slightly modify this formula if you consider

the chemo agents as the " King group " of a formula strategy (this is

my preferred method of working).

 

Mu li is often found in bone cancer formulas for a few reasons.

First,some cancers are thought to be due, in part, to a calcium

deficiency which creates a more acidic pH in cells. In an acidic

intracellular fluid, glucose can undergoes fermentation into lactic

acid, causing the pH to become even more acidic. In this

environment, enzymes can more easily bond with carcinogens.

 

Bisphosphonates or drugs that restrict the action of the osteoclasts

(cells that destroy bone) are used for symptomatic relief when there

is too much calcium leaching into the blood; but they don't replace

the calcium loss. So, secondarily, Mu li can be thought of as a

calcium source to help replenish bone calcium---especially when used

with Xu duan.

 

Thirdly---and more interesting from our perspective in CM---the

combination of Mu li and Spica Prunella can be used to help suppress

the perverse rising liver yang which is associated with cancer

etiology (even in a context where depletion is dominant). In cancer

pulses, as a category, there is a strong rising movement at the

beginning (the wood portion of the wave), that vibrates at the top

(the fire portion of the wave), and has no descending aspect---this

movement is called knotting in the Dong Han tradition (but this is

not the same as the TCM knotting, jie, although the same character

is used). This pulse movement is characteristic of strong,

uncontrolled growth in cells. We see it in the first few months of

pregnancy, but can follow the development of the descending portion

of the movement by the third month, and the completion of the whole

5-Phase pattern of the fetus during the remaining gestation period.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

 

Stephen wrote:

There are a number of formulas for specific types of bone cancer and

Concha Ostrea (Mu li) seems to be a common thread among the

formulas. Xu duan was also in a number of them, although not in the

one listed above. From looking at the formulas it seems that yin xu

is a predominant diagnosis.

[Guest guest]

<Jim>

> This formula would be very good to address the underlying yin

> depletion aspect of this case as you indicate; but only partially to

> address the cancer itself. Because this formula is for tonification,

> stronger anti-cancer herbs are required if the patient is not in

> remission. Or, you can slightly modify this formula if you consider

> the chemo agents as the " King group " of a formula strategy (this is

> my preferred method of working).

>

I have a question are all chemos hot in nature? Can you tell me anything

else about chemo being the " King " in the formula dynamic?

 

Thanks,

Teresa

[Guest guest]

Jim Wrote: In an acidic intracellular fluid, glucose can undergoes

fermentation into lactic acid, causing the pH to become even more acidic. In

this environment, enzymes can more easily bond with carcinogens.

 

 

Thanks for the interesting perspectives. Are you saying that it is commonly

held that this type of acidic condition exists in most or all cancerous

tissue? If that is the case are you then suggesting that buffering agents

such as calcium containing substances, i.e. mu li, are a preferred approach

to changing this acidic state? It would seem that identifying the impetus

for the excess acid production would be more important in the long term.

The buffering approach seems like putting a towel under a leaky faucet

instead of stopping the leak.

 

 

Jim also wrote: stronger anti-cancer herbs are required if the patient

is not in remission.

 

It is my understanding that a significant portion of the " anti-cancer "

effect of herbs is related to upregulation of immune function. Also, that

other parts of these anti-cancer formulations are targeting an improvement

in the physiology, i.e. circulation, anti-inflammation, metabolic rate, etc.

rather than the herbal ingredients actually attacking and killing the cancer

cell itself. So what would you consider as " stronger anti-cancer herbs " ?

 

Thanks,

Stephen

 

 

 

 

Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing

in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services,

including board approved online continuing education.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Teresa:

 

Cancer is difficult, so generally look more at the functional

aspects of the herbs rather than reducing it to a single yin/yang.

Ionizing radiation can be considered very hot or yang, and

alkalyzing chemos agents can be considered very yin.

 

If you're giving someone herbal formulas during chemo and radiation,

consider whether you want to give them strong anticancer herbs at

the same time. I usually do not (many are hard to come by and not

readily available in concentrate), so the chemo or radiation should

be considered the virtual " King " catagory in a formula and the rest

(minister, etc.) is to support and treat side effects. In that way,

it also becomes clearer what affect the chemo is having on the

cancer.

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

 

, " Teresa Hall "

<Teresa.bodywork4u@w...> wrote:

>> I have a question are all chemos hot in nature? Can you tell me

anything else about chemo being the " King " in the formula dynamic?

[Guest guest]

While most chemotherapy drugs, theoretically, can be considered hot and

toxic, there are possibly a few that are cold, such as cysplatin. Also,

some patients react to these drugs with accumulation of cold and damp in

the middle burner, pale tongues, and (eventually, after the initial

shock has worn off) slower, soggy pulses. Extreme medicinal substances

can evoke a wide range of reactions, based on the patient's underlying

condition, combinations of drugs, dosage and time.

 

I assume Jim means jun, or sovereign (emperor) ingredients in a

prescription. While I've written several years ago about using the

chemo drugs as this role in an overall prescription (and it is fairly

standard practice in China), the problem with this approach is the

present protocol of using very large doses of chemo drugs, often in one

shot. One can more easily coordinate herb prescriptions in this manner

with low-dose, longer term oral use of chemo drugs than with massive

intravenous injections of them given at three week intervals. One has

to increase the dosage of the qi and blood supplementing medicinals in

this case, along with other ingredients as needed (qi regulators, yin

supplementing, damp disinibiting, etc.). This may be problematic in

patients who suffer from nausea, vomiting and the like, at least

temporarily.

 

An interesting, challenging and difficult subject.

 

 

On Monday, July 8, 2002, at 06:46 AM, Teresa Hall wrote:

 

> I have a question are all chemos hot in nature?  Can you tell me

> anything

> else about chemo being the " King " in the formula dynamic?

[Guest guest]

, " stephen " <stephen@b...> wrote:

Are you saying that it is commonly held that this type of acidic

condition exists in most or all cancerous tissue? If that is the

case are you then suggesting that buffering agents such as calcium

containing substances, i.e. mu li, are a preferred approach to

changing this acidic state? It would seem that identifying the

impetus for the excess acid production would be more important in

the long term. The buffering approach seems like putting a towel

under a leaky faucet instead of stopping the leak.

 

 

I don't know how commonly it is held. It's just one line of thinking

that people talk about; and you must consider in your treatment

strategy. It has more to do with the stress accumulated over years

leading up to the cancer. So, you're right, if this is the only

consideration, it would be too little too late.

 

This explanation concerns the biochemical level which is strictly

speaking not in our " jurisdiction. " From our perspective, it can

simply be taken as a view of the conditions partly underlying and

causing the yin/yang balance and blockages in the meridian flow.

 

Cancer doesn't always have a single etiology. You always need to

check the emotional depth of the pulse (qi depth) as well as the

general physiology (blood depth) and organ balance to see how they

are influencing each other. Often, there are emotional components

which have changed the 5-Phase dynamics sometimes years earlier.

 

 

> Jim also wrote: stronger anti-cancer herbs are required if the

patient is not in remission.

>

> It is my understanding that a significant portion of the " anti-

cancer " effect of herbs is related to upregulation of immune

function. Also, that other parts of these anti-cancer formulations

are targeting an improvement in the physiology, i.e. circulation,

anti-inflammation, metabolic rate, etc. rather than the herbal

ingredients actually attacking and killing the cancer cell itself.

So what would you consider as " stronger anti-cancer herbs " ? >>>

 

Yes, what you are talking about is absolutely necessary---not just

for the current cancer, but for their chances for recurrence 3, 5,

and 10 years down the road. For strong herbs, look at Kee Chang

Huang's book, The Pharmacology of Chinese Herbs (CRC Press, 1999),

which lists 14 chinese herbs that were screened by the National

Cancer Institute and reportedly found to be effective against

cancer. For example:

 

Hong dao shan (Taxus chinensis)

Ye bai ho or Nung gu li (Crotalaria sessiliflora)

E zhu (Curcuma zedoaria)

San jin shan (Cephalotaxus fortunei)

Dong ling cao (Rabdosia rubescens)

Xi zhu (Camptotheca acuminata)

Lei gong teng (Triptergium wilfordii)

 

See the text for the complete list. They also have a table of " Other

Herbs Which Pocess Anticancer Agents; " many of these are familiar

and common. The table also shows which types of cancer they are

considered useful against.

 

Kelvin Chan and Lily Cheung's book, Interactions Between Chinese

Herbal Medicinal Products and Orthodox Drugs (Harwood Academic

Publishers, 2000) lists many familiar herbs as having an

anticancergenic effect.

 

If you read Chinese, there are many contemporary books on cancer,

and some formulas date back to Hua T'o. Many formulas have herbs

that are either difficult to get, unavailable here, and which I have

no experience using. And, I suspect that the Chinese journal studies

are often susceptible to the same types of spin and lack of

disclosure that our Western medical journals suffer from. So, rather

than try to treat it all by myself, I always make sure that the

patient is seeing an oncologist---it covers the liability issues and

is practical. Chemo can be very effective. I have watched the pulses

in a number of patients undergoing chemo improve significantly.

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

, " " <zrosenbe@s...>

wrote:

> While most chemotherapy drugs, theoretically, can be considered

hot and toxic, there are possibly a few that are cold, such as

cysplatin. Also, some patients react to these drugs with

accumulation of cold and damp in the middle burner, pale tongues,

and (eventually, after the initial shock has worn off) slower, soggy

pulses. Extreme medicinal substances can evoke a wide range of

reactions, based on the patient's underlying condition, combinations

of drugs, dosage and time.

 

Good point. It is impractical to think of them as only yin or yang.

You can read about the side effects, and develop an herbal formula

based on those s/s.

 

 

>>> I assume Jim means jun, or sovereign (emperor) ingredients in a

> prescription.

 

You're right. If there were only a dictionary or something to help

standardize this language ;-)

 

 

>>> While I've written several years ago about using the chemo drugs

as this role in an overall prescription (and it is fairly standard

practice in China), the problem with this approach is the present

protocol of using very large doses of chemo drugs, often in one

shot.>>>

 

Since I have no influence over what an oncologist decides to do, it

is a " work around " solution. But over the past years, chemo has

improved in effectiveness and with fewer side effects. Right now, I

have a liver cancer patient who is doing very well. His chemo is

reducing the cancer (as I track it through the pulses) and the side

effects are negligable. He should be in good shape for surgery.

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

Jim,

Yes, she started with breast cancer that

metastastasized to the bone.

The snake like pulse is soggy, and it feels as if

there are two snakes weaving in and out and around

each other, the snake like pulse feels like a

distinctly different entity that is present inside the

body alongside with the normal qi, whuch I interpert

as the cancer presence.

 

 

> > She feels the pain in her left rib and shoulder.

>

> Were these the tumor sites of her bone cancer?

 

Yes.

>

Eti

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

 

 

=====

AcuClinic: Acupuncture and Herbs

Eti Domb, L.Ac.

1281 University Ave, Suite E

San Diego, CA 92103

619.543.9280

 

 

 

Sign up for SBC Dial - First Month Free

http://sbc.

[Guest guest]

Eti:

 

Without being able to check her pulses directly myself, it sounds

like you're describing the site of the cancers (breast and bone)

along the rib and shoulder as it expresses itself in the yangming

channels. You pick up breast cancer in the Right distal position (at

the spleen or 3rd depth of the fu) because that is the front of the

body, upper jiao, connective tissue, above the diaphragm. If she had

breast cancer surgery, it's probably old damage from the scar

tissue, adhesions, removal of lymph nodes, etc. You didn't mention

it, but I'm guessing that's the case---if not, say so.

 

If the bone cancer spread out from the breast in the same general

area along the yangming then you would see the bone cancer deeper in

the right distal fu (the 5th depth or bone depth). So, same general

area but different depths. If the bone tumor was more to the side,

then check the GB (left middle fu 5th depth).

 

If she is in remission, you won't feel the cancer movement itself

but you may notice a lump or choppiness at the 5th fu depth---unless

the tumor has been removed or shrunken too small to notice. The

cancer itself will always show to be a small, strongly rising

(sometimes double-layered) movement that vibrates at the top and

does not descend. If you start to see this happen, the cancer is

returning.

 

If I ever travel to or do a seminar in your area, bring her and I

will show you what I'm referring to in her pulses.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

 

 

, Eti Domb <etidomb> wrote:

> Yes, she started with breast cancer that

> metastastasized to the bone.

> The snake like pulse is soggy, and it feels as if

> there are two snakes weaving in and out and around

> each other, the snake like pulse feels like a

> distinctly different entity that is present inside the

> body alongside with the normal qi, whuch I interpert

> as the cancer presence.

>

>

> > > She feels the pain in her left rib and shoulder.

Her pulses are soggy and damp and snake like on the

upper and middle jiao positions on the right side.

> >

> > Were these the tumor sites of her bone cancer?

>

> Yes.

 

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

> =====

> AcuClinic: Acupuncture and Herbs

> Eti Domb, L.Ac.

> 1281 University Ave, Suite E

> San Diego, CA 92103

> 619.543.9280

>

>

>

> Sign up for SBC Dial - First Month Free

> http://sbc.

[Guest guest]

Thanks Jim, thats very helpful.

Can you tell me some more about the pulse depths? I am

not certain which pulse system you are referring to.

Eti

--- jramholz <jramholz wrote:

> Eti:

>

> Without being able to check her pulses directly

> myself, it sounds

> like you're describing the site of the cancers

> (breast and bone)

> along the rib and shoulder as it expresses itself in

> the yangming

> channels. You pick up breast cancer in the Right

> distal position (at

> the spleen or 3rd depth of the fu) because that is

> the front of the

> body, upper jiao, connective tissue, above the

> diaphragm. If she had

> breast cancer surgery, it's probably old damage from

> the scar

> tissue, adhesions, removal of lymph nodes, etc. You

> didn't mention

> it, but I'm guessing that's the case---if not, say

> so.

>

> If the bone cancer spread out from the breast in the

> same general

> area along the yangming then you would see the bone

> cancer deeper in

> the right distal fu (the 5th depth or bone depth).

> So, same general

> area but different depths. If the bone tumor was

> more to the side,

> then check the GB (left middle fu 5th depth).

>

> If she is in remission, you won't feel the cancer

> movement itself

> but you may notice a lump or choppiness at the 5th

> fu depth---unless

> the tumor has been removed or shrunken too small to

> notice. The

> cancer itself will always show to be a small,

> strongly rising

> (sometimes double-layered) movement that vibrates at

> the top and

> does not descend. If you start to see this happen,

> the cancer is

> returning.

>

> If I ever travel to or do a seminar in your area,

> bring her and I

> will show you what I'm referring to in her pulses.

>

>

> Jim Ramholz

>

>

>

>

> , Eti Domb

> <etidomb> wrote:

> > Yes, she started with breast cancer that

> > metastastasized to the bone.

> > The snake like pulse is soggy, and it feels as if

> > there are two snakes weaving in and out and around

> > each other, the snake like pulse feels like a

> > distinctly different entity that is present inside

> the

> > body alongside with the normal qi, whuch I

> interpert

> > as the cancer presence.

> >

> >

> > > > She feels the pain in her left rib and

> shoulder.

> Her pulses are soggy and damp and snake like on the

> upper and middle jiao positions on the right side.

> > >

> > > Were these the tumor sites of her bone cancer?

> >

> > Yes.

>

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> > =====

> > AcuClinic: Acupuncture and Herbs

> > Eti Domb, L.Ac.

> > 1281 University Ave, Suite E

> > San Diego, CA 92103

> > 619.543.9280

> >

> >

> >

> > Sign up for SBC Dial - First Month Free

> > http://sbc.

>

>

 

 

=====

AcuClinic: Acupuncture and Herbs

Eti Domb, L.Ac.

1281 University Ave, Suite E

San Diego, CA 92103

619.543.9280

 

 

 

Sign up for SBC Dial - First Month Free

http://sbc.

[Guest guest]

Eti:

 

The Nan Jing and Mai Jing discuss dividing each pulse position into

5 depths. Those depths refer to (from top to bottom) the lung,

heart, spleen, liver, and kidney, in general; and their associated

body parts---skin, peripheral nerves, connective tissue and lymph,

sinew and deeper muscles, and bone---in particular. Using this

method, you can go beyond the highly generalized TCM findings and

examine localized and specific problems anywhere in the body---for

example, each separate tumor site in your patient. Or distinguish

the type of tissue where the problem is involved in a problem. For

example, in low back pain, you can distinguish between swelling and

buising in the muscle and a bone fracture.

 

The Dong Han tradition goes further by dividing the each pulse

position into zang and fu depths; then each of those into 5 depths

to reapply the classical concept again. This is possible due to the

fractal character of the pulses and the consistancy in clinical

findings. Later, it gets more complex.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

 

 

 

, Eti Domb <etidomb> wrote:

> Thanks Jim, thats very helpful.

> Can you tell me some more about the pulse depths? I am

> not certain which pulse system you are referring to.

> Eti

> --- jramholz <jramholz> wrote:

> > Eti:

> >

> > Without being able to check her pulses directly

> > myself, it sounds

> > like you're describing the site of the cancers

> > (breast and bone)

> > along the rib and shoulder as it expresses itself in

> > the yangming

> > channels. You pick up breast cancer in the Right

> > distal position (at

> > the spleen or 3rd depth of the fu) because that is

> > the front of the

> > body, upper jiao, connective tissue, above the

> > diaphragm. If she had

> > breast cancer surgery, it's probably old damage from

> > the scar

> > tissue, adhesions, removal of lymph nodes, etc. You

> > didn't mention

> > it, but I'm guessing that's the case---if not, say

> > so.

> >

> > If the bone cancer spread out from the breast in the

> > same general

> > area along the yangming then you would see the bone

> > cancer deeper in

> > the right distal fu (the 5th depth or bone depth).

> > So, same general

> > area but different depths. If the bone tumor was

> > more to the side,

> > then check the GB (left middle fu 5th depth).

> >

> > If she is in remission, you won't feel the cancer

> > movement itself

> > but you may notice a lump or choppiness at the 5th

> > fu depth---unless

> > the tumor has been removed or shrunken too small to

> > notice. The

> > cancer itself will always show to be a small,

> > strongly rising

> > (sometimes double-layered) movement that vibrates at

> > the top and

> > does not descend. If you start to see this happen,

> > the cancer is

> > returning.

> >

> > If I ever travel to or do a seminar in your area,

> > bring her and I

> > will show you what I'm referring to in her pulses.

> >

> >

> > Jim Ramholz

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > , Eti Domb

> > <etidomb> wrote:

> > > Yes, she started with breast cancer that

> > > metastastasized to the bone.

> > > The snake like pulse is soggy, and it feels as if

> > > there are two snakes weaving in and out and around

> > > each other, the snake like pulse feels like a

> > > distinctly different entity that is present inside

> > the

> > > body alongside with the normal qi, whuch I

> > interpert

> > > as the cancer presence.

> > >

> > >

> > > > > She feels the pain in her left rib and

> > shoulder.

> > Her pulses are soggy and damp and snake like on the

> > upper and middle jiao positions on the right side.

> > > >

> > > > Were these the tumor sites of her bone cancer?

> > >

> > > Yes.

> >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > > =====

> > > AcuClinic: Acupuncture and Herbs

> > > Eti Domb, L.Ac.

> > > 1281 University Ave, Suite E

> > > San Diego, CA 92103

> > > 619.543.9280

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Sign up for SBC Dial - First Month Free

> > > http://sbc.

> >

> >

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>

> =====

> AcuClinic: Acupuncture and Herbs

> Eti Domb, L.Ac.

> 1281 University Ave, Suite E

> San Diego, CA 92103

> 619.543.9280

>

>

>

> Sign up for SBC Dial - First Month Free

> http://sbc.

[Guest guest]

On Saturday, July 6, 2002, at 05:41 PM, Eti Domb wrote:

 

> Hello All,

>

> I have a patient with Bone cancer. I am giving her a

> raw herbal formula and wanted to know if anyone knows

> of any studies done on the effects of any herbs on

> bone cancer growth.

 

As far as I know, there are not any studies about. The material I have

seen basically puts bone cancer in the liver/kidney yin vacuity

patterns, and this patient seems more like sp qi vacuity.

 

Is the bone cancer primary or metastasis? From where? When did she

have the chemo? Any marrow transplants? Any osteoporosis?

>

> Her pulses are soggy and damp and snake like on the

> upper and middle jiao positions on the right side.

 

I have seen this pulse with bone and marrow disease before. It would

match to the disease being in the upper part of the body.

 

> She

> feels the pain in her left rib and shoulder. The

> tongue is swollen, dusky and pale.

 

Showing damage to the blood, spleen qi xu.

>

>

>

> She is overweight with a very large abdomen, soft to

> palpation.

 

Definitely work on the qi transformation of clear and turbid, supplement

the spleen and stomach. Work with diet.

>

>

>

> Her cancer is largely remitted now, she is not taking

> any chemotherapy drugs, she gets an aredia infusion

> monthly, Blood pressure medication and estrogen

> supperssion medication.

 

Which medications? What do you mean by 'largely remitted'? Is it true

remission?

>

> I am treating her for kidney and spleen qi xu with

> blood stagnation, and the formula is modified gui zhi

> fu ling tang.

>

How did you modify the prescription?

>

 

Z'ev

>

[Guest guest]

OK, I really need some input here. My dog has bone cancer in

her front knee. It is now the size of a soft ball. She is under the care of a

holistic vet and we are treating as such, but she probably won’t be

around more than another couple weeks. The cancer has not gotten any bigger in

the last 2-3 weeks as far as we can tell. She is eating and drinking well, in

good spirits, but we’ve just upped her pain meds as she is in more pain

not only from the cancer, but from the treatments she is on.

 

My husband and a friend of his who has studied under Dr.

Christopher are insisting that I make a poultice for the leg and allow the

herbs to work - that this will draw the cancer out. I am not understanding how

one can draw out cancerous bone cells. I know with other topical cancers, a

topical treatment is possible, but we are talking a HUGE area.

 

I am equally insisting, along with 2 of Hannah’s vets,

that once that skin has been broken, even with a small puncture, we will not be

able to contain the wound at all. It will be a nightmare to keep under control.

 

Does anyone else have an opinion on this? Both vets have

warned against accidently injuring the leg and of course the possibility of the

knee actually shattering if it is hit or she puts too much weight on it

accidently.

 

Thanks for any help with this

 

Katherine

 

THE WAY

FOOD USED TO TASTE

www.LegacyManorFarm.com (Maryland)

 

[Guest guest]

Using our Total Draw

Poultice Powder will do the trick. It is very similar to Doc

Christopher's formula and both will work very nicely.

However, I'd also recommend you get another puppy. This puppy will be

a companion to your dog and let her know she has family to look after

and other responsibilities.

This act alone could bring about a healing in your beloved pet. I'd do

this along with using the poultice, and a Blood Detox Regimen.

All the best,

Doc

 

On 2/20/2010 12:57 PM, Katherine@LMF wrote:

 

 

 

 

OK, I really need some input here. My dog has

bone cancer in

her front knee. It is now the size of a soft ball. She is under the

care of a

holistic vet and we are treating as such, but she probably won’t be

around more than another couple weeks. The cancer has not gotten any

bigger in

the last 2-3 weeks as far as we can tell. She is eating and drinking

well, in

good spirits, but we’ve just upped her pain meds as she is in more pain

not only from the cancer, but from the treatments she is on.

 

My husband and a friend of his who has studied

under Dr.

Christopher are insisting that I make a poultice for the leg and allow

the

herbs to work - that this will draw the cancer out. I am not

understanding how

one can draw out cancerous bone cells. I know with other topical

cancers, a

topical treatment is possible, but we are talking a HUGE area.

 

I am equally insisting, along with 2 of Hannah’s

vets,

that once that skin has been broken, even with a small puncture, we

will not be

able to contain the wound at all. It will be a nightmare to keep under

control.

 

Does anyone else have an opinion on this? Both

vets have

warned against accidently injuring the leg and of course the

possibility of the

knee actually shattering if it is hit or she puts too much weight on it

accidently.

 

Thanks for any help with this

 

Katherine

 

THE WAY

FOOD USED TO TASTE

www.LegacyManorFarm.com

(Maryland)

 

[Guest guest]

Thanks, we have 5 dogs total, and getting a puppy is out of the

question right now. I have enough to do without a puppy plus Hannah really

doesn’t feel well enough to care for another dog, she doesn’t even want the

other dogs around her at all.

 

Doc, can I call you and discuss this cancer further? My vets are

so afraid to open this wound as managing it would be a nightmare.

 

I have Hannah on a blood cleansing herbal mix now – mostly red

clover.

 

Katherine

 

 

THE WAY FOOD USED TO TASTE

www.LegacyManorFarm.com (Maryland)

 

 

 

 

 

herbal remedies [herbal remedies ] On

Behalf Of Doc

Thursday, February 25, 2010 4:17 PM

herbal remedies

Re: {Herbal Remedies} Bone cancer

 

 

 

 

 

 

Using our Total Draw Poultice Powder will do

the trick. It is very similar to Doc Christopher's formula and both will

work very nicely.

However, I'd also recommend you get another puppy. This puppy will be a

companion to your dog and let her know she has family to look after and other

responsibilities.

This act alone could bring about a healing in your beloved pet. I'd do

this along with using the poultice, and a Blood Detox Regimen.

All the best,

Doc

 

On 2/20/2010 12:57 PM, Katherine@LMF wrote:

 

 

 

OK,

I really need some input here. My dog has bone cancer in her front knee. It is

now the size of a soft ball. She is under the care of a holistic vet and we are

treating as such, but she probably won’t be around more than another couple

weeks. The cancer has not gotten any bigger in the last 2-3 weeks as far as we

can tell. She is eating and drinking well, in good spirits, but we’ve just

upped her pain meds as she is in more pain not only from the cancer, but from

the treatments she is on.

 

My

husband and a friend of his who has studied under Dr. Christopher are insisting

that I make a poultice for the leg and allow the herbs to work - that this will

draw the cancer out. I am not understanding how one can draw out cancerous bone

cells. I know with other topical cancers, a topical treatment is possible, but

we are talking a HUGE area.

 

I

am equally insisting, along with 2 of Hannah’s vets, that once that skin has

been broken, even with a small puncture, we will not be able to contain the

wound at all. It will be a nightmare to keep under control.

 

Does

anyone else have an opinion on this? Both vets have warned against accidently

injuring the leg and of course the possibility of the knee actually shattering

if it is hit or she puts too much weight on it accidently.

 

Thanks

for any help with this

 

Katherine

 

THE WAY FOOD USED TO TASTE

www.LegacyManorFarm.com

(Maryland)