Re:Want to be a DC or MD ? (Summary of this week's Discussion)

[Guest guest]

Donald,

 

I think that the original thread was discussing the ramifications of DCs and

MDs practicing TCM without formal training or minimal hours. Since they

have 4200 +hours of didactic and clinical training, what else should they do

to be able to practice TCM?

Should they have to go through 3-4 years of TCM school and pass the NCCA

licensing exam?

or just pass an internally generated board certification course ?

or just practice as the laws in most states allow them to do without any

further training ?

 

1. We demonstrated that MDs and DCs do have more formal hours of training

than most Licensed acupuncturists

(except for DAOMs who also have 4200+ hours) ; but without the formal

residency program.

 

2. We discussed the idea that TCM school is not as rigorous or demanding as

med school

(entrance requirements, testing to graduate, licensing exam)

 

3. We posed the hypothetical idea of allowing DAOMs (4200 + hours) who pass

a 300 hour certified course and board certified exam to do spinal

manipulations (not just Tui-na stretching).

 

4. We also said that including higher educational requirements, we need to

prove efficacy from clinical studies, not just anecdotal testimonies from

patients. In order to do this, we need to train qualified clinical

researchers, money to do the studies and the right type of studies which can

showcase the true process of the medicine (differential diagnosis and de qi

needling vs placebo).

 

Without making our education more rigorous and extensive and without being

able to demonstrate evidence-based efficacy in (8 principles/ Zang-fu/ 5

elements/ 6 layers/ 4 levels/ Meridian palpation) Differential Diagnosis

(which is what we do and MDs and DCs usually don't) with clinical studies,

it will be difficult to tell MDs and DCs that they shouldn't be sticking

needles into their patients.

 

K.

 

 

 

On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 12:20 PM, Donald Snow <don83407 wrote:

 

>

> The only MDs that are knee deep in blood and guts are ER docs. Somebody is

> watching too much TV. Most MDs see a patient for 5 to 10 mins, write a RX

> and NEXT! Geez, it's efficacy, not schooling that is the discussion.

>

> Don Snow DAOM, LAc

>

> To:

Chinese Medicine<Chinese Medicine%40\

From>:

> vedeler <vedeler%40earthlink.netDate>: Fri, 18 Jul 2008

> 11:39:47 -0700RE: Re:Want to be a DC or MD ?

>

> I've been following this tread with some interest. Yes TCM school iseasier

> than medical school. I have little doubt of that. Our medicinerarely deals

> with life and death decisions and does not require the samelevel of training

> and pressure. I think it is foolish to expect Chinesemedical practioners to

> expect the same level of respect and pay as MD'swho work 18 hour shifts knee

> deep in blood and guts who's slightestmistake can cause serious harm or

> death.However, Chinese medicine is elegant and extremely effective for

> someconditions. I have had success where Western medicine has

> failedcompletely. What I do is of value, and while not as demanding on me

> asWestern Medicine would be, at the end of the day it is the results inthe

> patients lives that matter.I remember the days when IBM PC users would look

> down on Macintosh usersbecause they thought the easier to use interface was

> like a toy andcouldn't be considered a serious computer because it wasn't

> hard likeDOS. In the end a harder process does not necessarily provide

> betterresults.Christopher Vedeler L.Ac.Oasis

> Acupuncturehttp://www.oasisacupuncture.com9832 N. Hayden Rd.Suite

> 215Scottsdale, AZ 85258Phone: (480) 991-3650

>

>

[Guest guest]

I don't think it would matter how rigoruous our education is, they do not want

us sharing their pie. That's what monopolies do. Read the Flexner report and

you will see the history of allopathic medicine and the end of all competition

in that 1906 report. Only drug medicine is allowed to operate freely because

that's where the dollars are. You can't patent herbs and you can't patent

acupuncture or tuin na or chiropractic. It's about the money, not the

education.

 

Don

 

 

 

: johnkokko:

Fri, 18 Jul 2008 14:25:48 -0700Re: Re:Want to be a DC or MD ?

(Summary of this week's Discussion)

 

 

 

 

Donald,I think that the original thread was discussing the ramifications of DCs

andMDs practicing TCM without formal training or minimal hours. Since theyhave

4200 +hours of didactic and clinical training, what else should they doto be

able to practice TCM?Should they have to go through 3-4 years of TCM school and

pass the NCCAlicensing exam?or just pass an internally generated board

certification course ?or just practice as the laws in most states allow them to

do without anyfurther training ?1. We demonstrated that MDs and DCs do have more

formal hours of trainingthan most Licensed acupuncturists(except for DAOMs who

also have 4200+ hours) ; but without the formalresidency program.2. We discussed

the idea that TCM school is not as rigorous or demanding asmed school(entrance

requirements, testing to graduate, licensing exam)3. We posed the hypothetical

idea of allowing DAOMs (4200 + hours) who passa 300 hour certified course and

board certified exam to do spinalmanipulations (not just Tui-na stretching).4.

We also said that including higher educational requirements, we need toprove

efficacy from clinical studies, not just anecdotal testimonies frompatients. In

order to do this, we need to train qualified clinicalresearchers, money to do

the studies and the right type of studies which canshowcase the true process of

the medicine (differential diagnosis and de qineedling vs placebo).Without

making our education more rigorous and extensive and without beingable to

demonstrate evidence-based efficacy in (8 principles/ Zang-fu/ 5elements/ 6

layers/ 4 levels/ Meridian palpation) Differential Diagnosis(which is what we do

and MDs and DCs usually don't) with clinical studies,it will be difficult to

tell MDs and DCs that they shouldn't be stickingneedles into their patients.K.On

Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 12:20 PM, Donald Snow <don83407 wrote:>> The only

MDs that are knee deep in blood and guts are ER docs. Somebody is> watching too

much TV. Most MDs see a patient for 5 to 10 mins, write a RX> and NEXT! Geez,

it's efficacy, not schooling that is the discussion.>> Don Snow DAOM, LAc>> To:

Chinese Medicine<Chinese Medicine%40\

From>:> vedeler <vedeler%40earthlink.netDate>:

Fri, 18 Jul 2008> 11:39:47 -0700RE: Re:Want to be a DC or MD ?>>

I've been following this tread with some interest. Yes TCM school iseasier> than

medical school. I have little doubt of that. Our medicinerarely deals> with life

and death decisions and does not require the samelevel of training> and

pressure. I think it is foolish to expect Chinesemedical practioners to> expect

the same level of respect and pay as MD'swho work 18 hour shifts knee> deep in

blood and guts who's slightestmistake can cause serious harm or> death.However,

Chinese medicine is elegant and extremely effective for> someconditions. I have

had success where Western medicine has> failedcompletely. What I do is of value,

and while not as demanding on me> asWestern Medicine would be, at the end of the

day it is the results inthe> patients lives that matter.I remember the days when

IBM PC users would look> down on Macintosh usersbecause they thought the easier

to use interface was> like a toy andcouldn't be considered a serious computer

because it wasn't> hard likeDOS. In the end a harder process does not

necessarily provide> betterresults.Christopher Vedeler L.Ac.Oasis>

Acupuncturehttp://www.oasisacupuncture.com9832 N. Hayden Rd.Suite>

215Scottsdale, AZ 85258Phone: (480) 991-3650>> [Non-text portions of this

message have been removed]>> >-- aka Mu bong LimFather of

BhaktiThe Four Reliances:Do not rely upon the individual, but rely upon the

teaching.As far as teachings go, do not rely upon the words alone, but rely upon

themeaning that underlies them.Regarding the meaning, do not rely upon the

provisional meaning alone, butrely upon the definitive meaning.And regarding the

definitive meaning, do not rely upon ordinaryconsciousness, but rely upon wisdom

awareness.