Guest guest Posted July 17, 2008 Report Share Posted July 17, 2008 The majority of the moves going in the " system=at-large " are to discourage people from turning to alternative medical approaches. The attempts by AOM accrediting organizations to biomedicalize the profession have covertly seeped into the State Boards such as in Florida. The Board Members have no idea what biomedical sciences or as someone has given them talking points to call them " clinical competencies " . The AOM rank and file need to wake up and get their heads out of the sand. The more biomedicalization and EBM that comes down the pike and gets written into statute and/or administrative code the more AOM goes away and gets replaced. By the way......did you'all know that out of the approximate 633,000 MDs/DOs in the United States ONLY 15% own their own practice? You might be thinking what has that got to do with anything? That means that 538,000 allopaths WORK for the magalo-medical consortium while approaching 100% of AOM practitioners work for themselves. Its called having your own " cash register " And the SYSTEM does NOT want you to have your OWN cash register. That's why for the most part AOM practitioners are NOT reimbursed and NOT federally approved by the government. The more these changes take place the more AOM in America becomes bastardized in order for it to be taken over and pushed down. Richard In a message dated 7/17/2008 1:29:47 P.M. Central Standard Time, zrosenbe writes: Evidence-based medicine " has quickly morphed into a political expediency tool to discourage people from turning to alternative medical approaches. Z'ev Rosenberg **************Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com! (http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus00050000000112) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 2008 Report Share Posted July 17, 2008 " Here's a fact for you. Only 22% of all of allopathic medical practices have undergone rigorous double-blind placebo controlled studies. The other 78+% of medical practice is called " standard accepted medical practice " . Hi Don Snow, Do you have references from the information above? Thank you in advance. Jean G. Fernandes Joaquim DMV, MS ABRAVET, IVAS and IVAPM Member Botucatu - SP - Brazil F: 014-97083176 www.bioethicus.com.br --- On Thu, 7/17/08, Donald Snow <don83407 wrote: Donald Snow <don83407 RE: Re: TCM , Acupuncture or What? Chinese Traditional Medicine Thursday, July 17, 2008, 11:45 AM Here's a fact for you. Only 22% of all of allopathic medical practices have undergone rigorous double-blind placebo controlled studies. The other 78+% of medical practice is called " standard accepted medical practice. " That's right. They want 100% of our medicine proven by research, yet they exempt their own medicine. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc alonmarcus (AT) wans (DOT) netWed, 16 Jul 2008 15:35:13 -0700Re: TCM , Acupuncture or What? JohnEach profession has its own boards, so MDs and DCs may set there own standards of what " acupuncture " practice is. Its understandable that we as a profession are protective and defensive. But until we can show that one we get better results and two we are safer (and i am not talking about the kind anecdotal opinions we hear on lists such as this) we really do not have anything to stand on. It all comes back to the same issues.Alon400 29th St. #419510-452- 5034www.integrat ivehealthmedicin e.com[Non- text portions of this message have been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 2008 Report Share Posted July 17, 2008 " Evidence-based medicine " has quickly morphed into a political expediency tool to discourage people from turning to alternative medical approaches. On Jul 17, 2008, at 7:45 AM, Donald Snow wrote: > > Here's a fact for you. Only 22% of all of allopathic medical > practices have undergone rigorous double-blind placebo controlled > studies. The other 78+% of medical practice is called " standard > accepted medical practice. " That's right. They want 100% of our > medicine proven by research, yet they exempt their own medicine. > > Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 2008 Report Share Posted July 17, 2008 Actually, I do think that if we brought up the requirements to 4200 + hours, and did a 300 hour Board certified course and pass a practical and didactic exam, we should also have adjustments put into our legal scope of practice. The reason I state this is because the Chinese were doing bone adjustments for thousands of years before Osteopathic or Chiropractic medicine came into existence. There is ample documentation to prove this. Not only that, but Asian Martial arts practitioners hold a long lineage of advanced spinal adjustment techniques, as well as other bone-setting wisdom/ sinew mending knowledge that is extremely effective. We have to be fair on both ends. K. On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 12:10 AM, Jens Maassen <jensmeister wrote: > I think what this recent discussion truly illustrates are a couple of > fundamental issues: > > As long as we view and represent ourselves as Acupuncturists rather > than Oriental (or Asian, Chinese,..) medicine practitioners it is > much easier to reduce this powerful medicine to a mere technique that > can be learned, at least to an entry level proficiency, in a few > weekends. Anyone who has taken the time to study our medicine from > the ground up knows that it is a very complex and complete medical > system, and learning how to stick needles into patients is one of the > easiest things to learn. Without a solid foundation in zhang fu, > meridian pathways, tongue, pulse, and other symptomatic diagnostics > however, that is all you are doing: sticking needles into people. > I personally don't have any problems with MDs , Chiros, NDs, DOs > sticking needles into people- just don't call it Acupuncture unless > you have studied the medical system that it is part of. > Unfortunately the comments of the two chiros participating in this > discussion illustrate perfectly how many view our medicine. > A good friend of mine, who is a chiropractor, told me that he could > teach me most adjustments in a weekend. So by the logic applied , > should I encounter a patient of mine who I think would benefit from > an adjustment in addition to one of my treatments, I should just > study the adjustment technique and adjust him/her. And hey, if I am > not that good at it, just keep doing it and I'll get better. Maybe I > can even take out a local chiropractor for tea and pick up some tips > Because I view Chiropractic medicine as a medical system (and really > want to keep my license) however, what I will do instead is to refer > that patient to a chiropractor for an adjustment. > If I really felt inclined to do adjustments, I would go to a > chiropractic college (hopefully getting credit for the Anatomy, > Physiology, Pathology,… courses that were part of my education) study > the medicine , pass the boards and give my patients adjustments. > > And as much as I appreciate that other health care professionals are > intrigued by the amazing results delivered by Oriental Medicine, what > is wrong with referring patients to a licensed provider in that > medicine? > Or, if really interested in practicing our medicine go back to > school, study it, pass the boards and practice it? > What do think would happen if MDs suggested that they should be > allowed to practice Dentistry after taking a 300 hour course. The 32 > teeth and the mouth were all covered in Anatomy and Physiology > anyway, and they could call themselves " Medical Dentists. " > While this might sound like hyperbole it isn't that far fetched , and > yet you know the dental profession would never let that happen. > > This brings me to my second point. I think our profession really is > at a cross roads. With medical costs rising at a speed matching that > of gasoline prices, and people increasingly losing faith in > allopathic medicine, Oriental medicine offer a potent and cost > effective option. > But unless we as a profession coalesce and stand up for our rights I > believe the momentum moving in our direction will not propel us > forward , but present a " low hanging fruits " opportunity to other, > more organized medical professions. And yet membership in State and > National organizations is low, and intra disciplinary squabbling > sometimes reaches a level bordering on childish. > Other professions (Chiros, NDs, and even PTs) have understood that a > doctoral degree is a must to advance their respective disciplines to > a higher level of professionalism, and yet we continue silly and > misinformed infighting without any progress. > > I think most of us who took the time to get schooled in this > wonderful and amazing medicine have a pretty good grasp on the > healing, or Yin, aspect of this medicine, but as a profession we are > severely Yang deficient. > > There is a new day dawning for our medicine, but we must seize it or > others will do it for us. > > Jens Maassen L.Ac. > > --- In Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com>, > acudoc11 > wrote: > > > > > Alon > > > > What you say is only in part true. > > > > Board's are ONLY allowed to promulgate rules where the legislature > has given > > them specific legislative authority to make a rule. > > > > So it all depends on not only each state's healthcare statutes in > general > > but more specifically each healthcare practice act. > > > > I stated a challenge to the MDs statute in Florida for nowhere in > the > > statute do they have the authority to make a rule that they can > even adjunctively > > USE acupuncture needles. The Florida Board of medicine spewed > forth propaganda > > that MDs are G-d-like and they can do anything they want. > > > > After being involved in multiple Florida lawsuits and seeing first > hand how > > crooked and rigged the courts are....I did not waste my time suing > them. Keep > > in mind that every healthcare association in Florida is run by an > attorney. > > And the Board's are also controlled by Dept of Health attorneys. > > > > Often we think these private associations are run by the profession > but the > > reality is they are controlled by the Bar. > > > > Richard > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- aka Mu bong Lim Father of Bhakti The Four Reliances: Do not rely upon the individual, but rely upon the teaching. As far as teachings go, do not rely upon the words alone, but rely upon the meaning that underlies them. Regarding the meaning, do not rely upon the provisional meaning alone, but rely upon the definitive meaning. And regarding the definitive meaning, do not rely upon ordinary consciousness, but rely upon wisdom awareness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 2008 Report Share Posted July 17, 2008 China was one of the first to perform surgery also, and they used anesthesia. Anyone can learn almost any skill, unfortunately we need " the system's " permission to learn and perform it. And they aren't about to let more people in because that's how they control their pay. When you let demand outstrip supply, wages stay high. That's what licensing boards really do. It really doesn't have a lot to do with public health, but self protection. Public health is the sham propaganda. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2008 Report Share Posted July 18, 2008 Zev You are wrong here. For example, i just read, forget which journal, that many insurance companies as well as several medical specialty groups are pushing for covering and practice of only evidence based medicine within western medicine. I do not think it has anything to do with alternative medicine. The only argument in the article against this practice were about the cost of studying widely excepted " proven " procedures and drugs. I go to many western medical meeting and i cant tell you how many time i have heard lectures challenging western practices based on lack of evidence or based on new studies showing excepted practices to not actually work. About 10 years ago a very famous Dr gave a lecture in-front of some of the very well known hotshot doctors in back care at the American Back Society showing how poor the evidence was at the time for so many Western intervention, procedures, physical examinations, etc. Many dr cannot get paid or get approved to do many procedures based on lack of evidence every day and the least keep getting bigger. This is a much larger movement than alternative medicine. We can try to dance around this but this is were medicine is going in the west. I for one believe if we do not start doing good research we will loose much of what we gained. While at this point most medical power is basically political including professional rights, i think with time evidence based issues will penetrate this as well. 400 29th St. Suite 419 Oakland Ca 94609 alonmarcus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2008 Report Share Posted July 18, 2008 Koko The issue of what tui na is is not clear at this point. There is only one opinion stating that in CA we cant do chiropractic like adjustment. OK what does that mean? I think you can make a good argument that tui na manipulation (HVLA manipulations) are not chiropractic like. As you know schools have taught tui na high velocity manipulations. So if you define chiropractic manipulation as only what chrios do following their paradigm then i think LAcs in CA are within the definition of tui na. If you manipulate make sure you do not use the word adjust or chiropractic. Personally i think HVLA techniques are outdated and much less affective than some other bodywork techniques but that is my opinion. Same thing with acupuncture, if you define acupuncture as only what oriental medicine does then you can make the argument that MDs and DCs are practicing another paradigm. But if you define it like many of them do then you cant. 400 29th St. Suite 419 Oakland Ca 94609 alonmarcus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2008 Report Share Posted July 18, 2008 Alon, I am just trying to point out from the perspective as a teacher that the evidence-based movement is being used against us, largely due to the tyranny of funding and political privilege. I would also like to see studies done based on pattern-based methodology, but this may be difficult to carry out in the short term. I am going to send you an article privately written by a Chinese physician on this subject, and would like your input. I have difficulty posting to the TCM group from here, but if you can post it for me I'd appreciate it. . . I had a feeling I'd be hearing from you on this Take care, On Jul 17, 2008, at 4:08 PM, alon marcus wrote: > Zev > You are wrong here. For example, i just read, forget which journal, > that many insurance companies as well as several medical specialty > groups are pushing for covering and practice of only evidence based > medicine within western medicine. I do not think it has anything to do > with alternative medicine. The only argument in the article against > this practice were about the cost of studying widely excepted " proven " > procedures and drugs. I go to many western medical meeting and i cant > tell you how many time i have heard lectures challenging western > practices based on lack of evidence or based on new studies showing > excepted practices to not actually work. About 10 years ago a very > famous Dr gave a lecture in-front of some of the very well known > hotshot doctors in back care at the American Back Society showing how > poor the evidence was at the time for so many Western intervention, > procedures, physical examinations, etc. Many dr cannot get paid or get > approved to do many procedures based on lack of evidence every day and > the least keep getting bigger. This is a much larger movement than > alternative medicine. We can try to dance around this but this is were > medicine is going in the west. I for one believe if we do not start > doing good research we will loose much of what we gained. While at > this point most medical power is basically political including > professional rights, i think with time evidence based issues will > penetrate this as well. > > > > 400 29th St. Suite 419 > Oakland Ca 94609 > > > > alonmarcus > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2008 Report Share Posted July 18, 2008 The chiros in Texas tried to stop L.Ac.s from practicing tui-na about eight or ten years ago by claiming it was infringing on their bailiwick. They spent a bundle on lobbyists, got it through both houses and then, surprisingly, Gov. Bush refused to sign the bill. It's too bad that we haven't been so vocal in protecting what we do; hope it's not too late. Kim Blankenship, L.Ac. On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 4:22 PM, alon marcus <alonmarcus wrote: > Koko > The issue of what tui na is is not clear at this point. There is only > one opinion stating that in CA we cant do chiropractic like > adjustment. OK what does that mean? I think you can make a good > argument that tui na manipulation (HVLA manipulations) are not > chiropractic like. As you know schools have taught tui na high > velocity manipulations. So if you define chiropractic manipulation as > only what chrios do following their paradigm then i think LAcs in CA > are within the definition of tui na. If you manipulate make sure you > do not use the word adjust or chiropractic. Personally i think HVLA > techniques are outdated and much less affective than some other > bodywork techniques but that is my opinion. Same thing with > acupuncture, if you define acupuncture as only what oriental medicine > does then you can make the argument that MDs and DCs are practicing > another paradigm. But if you define it like many of them do then you > cant. > > > > > 400 29th St. Suite 419 > Oakland Ca 94609 > > > > alonmarcus <alonmarcus%40wans.net> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2008 Report Share Posted July 18, 2008 Hear, hear! : kuangguiyu: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 21:21:00 -0700Re: Re: TCM , Acupuncture or What? The chiros in Texas tried to stop L.Ac.s from practicing tui-na about eightor ten years ago by claiming it was infringing on their bailiwick. Theyspent a bundle on lobbyists, got it through both houses and then,surprisingly, Gov. Bush refused to sign the bill. It's too bad that wehaven't been so vocal in protecting what we do; hope it's not too late.Kim Blankenship, L.Ac.On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 4:22 PM, alon marcus <alonmarcus wrote:> Koko> The issue of what tui na is is not clear at this point. There is only> one opinion stating that in CA we cant do chiropractic like> adjustment. OK what does that mean? I think you can make a good> argument that tui na manipulation (HVLA manipulations) are not> chiropractic like. As you know schools have taught tui na high> velocity manipulations. So if you define chiropractic manipulation as> only what chrios do following their paradigm then i think LAcs in CA> are within the definition of tui na. If you manipulate make sure you> do not use the word adjust or chiropractic. Personally i think HVLA> techniques are outdated and much less affective than some other> bodywork techniques but that is my opinion. Same thing with> acupuncture, if you define acupuncture as only what oriental medicine> does then you can make the argument that MDs and DCs are practicing> another paradigm. But if you define it like many of them do then you> cant.>>> >> 400 29th St. Suite 419> Oakland Ca 94609> >> > alonmarcus <alonmarcus%40wans.net>>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2008 Report Share Posted July 18, 2008 Zev I did not see the list email so i wrote you back directly. I will try to post it when i get home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2008 Report Share Posted July 19, 2008 Hi Alon - I found some interesting historical data suggesting that chiropractic actually came from Tuina. There is a story among senior Chinese tuina (manual therapy) practitioners. The charismatic leader of the chiropractic movement, D.D. Palmer, learned tui na from immigrant Chinese railroad workers in Davenport Iowa. This paper identifies a social and historical scenario where tuina, magnetic healing and western scientific theory may have converged . In1855, the first railroad train crossed Mississippi on the river's first bridge, Rock Island, Illinois to Davenport, Iowa. Cultural artifacts of the time period are found in work camp remains in California. They include newspapers, the diet, opium use, coins and gambling tokens ( " Teaching children 19th century united states history with timelines, part 2: 1850 - 1899 " ). What are not discussed in the documents are the cultural artifacts of Chinese medical practice. Given the times, and the American interest in bonesetting, magnetic healing, orthodox science, and popular health reform, lead one to conclude that traditional Chinese medical practices likely had an influence on the origins of chiropractic. “Whether fact, folklore, or both, the founding blow of chiropractic was more than a chance event or momentary inspiration. In fact, it creatively synthesized 4 previously distinct health care traditions: bonesetting, magnetic healing, orthodox science, and popular health reform.†(Kaptchuk & Eisenberg, 1998). It is possible that a magnetic healer, growing up in such a cultural milieu developed the concept of chiropractic through a flashing moment of insight that created the clinical birth of a profession. But it is not likely. Warmly - Will William R. Morris, PhD ©, DAOM, LAc http://theccrt.com/ http://www.aoma.edu/ http://www.pulsediagnosis.com/ Chinese Medicine , alon marcus <alonmarcus wrote: > > Koko > The issue of what tui na is is not clear at this point. There is only > one opinion stating that in CA we cant do chiropractic like > adjustment. OK what does that mean? I think you can make a good > argument that tui na manipulation (HVLA manipulations) are not > chiropractic like. As you know schools have taught tui na high > velocity manipulations. So if you define chiropractic manipulation as > only what chrios do following their paradigm then i think LAcs in CA > are within the definition of tui na. If you manipulate make sure you > do not use the word adjust or chiropractic. Personally i think HVLA > techniques are outdated and much less affective than some other > bodywork techniques but that is my opinion. Same thing with > acupuncture, if you define acupuncture as only what oriental medicine > does then you can make the argument that MDs and DCs are practicing > another paradigm. But if you define it like many of them do then you > cant. > > > > 400 29th St. Suite 419 > Oakland Ca 94609 > > > > alonmarcus > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2008 Report Share Posted July 22, 2008 Hey Will Interesting, there is also a unverified story that Still's first clinic (as an MD) was rented from a chinese gentleman that may have practiced CM. This may have influenced his thinking and Osteopathy. Regardless, i think we have a lot to stand on here is CA regarding HVLA. 400 29th St. Suite 419 Oakland Ca 94609 alonmarcus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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