Guest guest Posted July 15, 2008 Report Share Posted July 15, 2008 Having practiced honest, effective and diverse Acupuncture as a " Chiro- puncturist " for 30 years, I resent the immature labeling and name calling so rampant among some members of this group. Especially the assumptions that allied professionals know nothing of TCM. Once one embarks upon utilizing to help people, additional learning follows naturally. Whether one begins with trigger point therapy, acupressure or gensing, matters little in the overall scheme of things. And what one calls the therapy matters only slightly more. There are numerous OMD's in the US practicing " formula-puncture " with adjunctive herbalism thrown in for effect and calling it TCM or " Modern " . So what's the big deal? Chinese medicine is becoming rapidly accepted in the West and, not surprisingly, because People are getting well. Whatever it is we're doing is working. ALL of us have contributed to this. It's time to join forces to insure a sustainable profession, not divest ourselves and contribute to elitism and name calling. Besides, TCM and Acupuncture are not the same thing - any more than Aspirin and Allopathy are! Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 2008 Report Share Posted July 15, 2008 To be fair, Bill, you in particular stand apart from most in your group. You treat TCM, reiki, and if I recall, homeopathy, with respect, teach it, and speak of it with honor. In fact, despite your letters, I didn't realize you were a chiropractor. I think the point being made is that the " majority " not " all " have an arrogance about it, that they can do it with a couple hours of DVD home study and one weeked of practicum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 2008 Report Share Posted July 15, 2008 So I suppose no one would mind if I took a weekend course in Chiropractic or allopathic medicine, or maybe a 2 month course, and no one would complain if I performed chiropractic or allopathic medicine. Perhaps I just take surgery, and not the whole of allopathic medicine and just do that. Would that be OK? Well, that's what DC's and MD's are telling us. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. : dokkabill: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 13:04:29 +0000TCM , Acupuncture or What? Having practiced honest, effective and diverse Acupuncture as a " Chiro-puncturist " for 30 years, I resent the immature labeling and name calling so rampant among some members of this group. Especially the assumptions that allied professionals know nothing of TCM. Once one embarks upon utilizing to help people, additional learning follows naturally. Whether one begins with trigger point therapy, acupressure or gensing, matters little in the overall scheme of things. And what one calls the therapy matters only slightly more.There are numerous OMD's in the US practicing " formula-puncture " with adjunctive herbalism thrown in for effect and calling it TCM or " Modern " . So what's the big deal?Chinese medicine is becoming rapidly accepted in the West and, not surprisingly, because People are getting well.Whatever it is we're doing is working. ALL of us have contributed to this. It's time to join forces to insure a sustainable profession, not divest ourselves and contribute to elitism and name calling.Besides, TCM and Acupuncture are not the same thing - any more than Aspirin and Allopathy are! Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 2008 Report Share Posted July 15, 2008 Sorry, I'm not the Bill you think I am. But I have practiced a " diversified " approach to healing, meaning I use all the tools I have appropriate to the patient's condition. This includes a " bunch of stuff " like homeopathy, Chinese Herbs, TCM and just plain old " talk therapy " . I am sorry you think a majority of allied professionals are arrogant and have minimal training. Neither of these things are true of the hundred or so practitioners I know. Maybe there are many jerks in your area. Quality people tend to be quiet and unseen. Which is not to say there aren't those who are poorly trained, don't continue to learn and appear to be in it just for money. Oddly, some of these are also " traditionally " trained! Throwing verbal stones at arrogance and poor skills is simply arrogance of another sort. We need to rise above this and promote excellence, professionalism and continued study and inquiry, which is what I thought this site was all about. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 2008 Report Share Posted July 15, 2008 A few MDs, DOs or DCs who have gone beyond the " week-end-warrior " status are the exception as far as education in Acupuncture and/or TCM yet the majority are grossly under trained and ineffective. Time and time again trained acupuncturists have had to correct the ineffective treatment of those poorly trained or untrained. FACT. In Florida, DCs only need the mere 100hrs and to pass a test from the national Chiropractic Board (not the NCCAOM) whereas MDs and DOs need absolutely NO training. FACT. The " system " wants these failures in order to turn away the public from the real trained acupuncturists (and the very few MDs, DOs, DCs who are also well trained). In Florida many reimbursement plans are more than happy to pay for the untrained MD/DO or poorly trained DC and NOT for the trained licensed acupuncturist. FACT At last review....even the State of Florida Government Employee Plan discriminates against it's own licensed acupuncturists in favor of the untrained MD/DO or sub-par trained. FACT. Richard In a message dated 7/15/2008 4:16:47 P.M. Central Standard Time, kuangguiyu writes: Hi Bill – As a licensed acupuncturist, I'm afraid I have to take exception to some of your rather contentious points. Earlier in this thread in an attempt to separate acupuncture and TCM you stated that " TCM and Acupuncture are not the same thing… " You're right, they're not, and I don't know anyone who claims that they are the same thing. However, acupuncture and TCM are classically and inextricably linked. Acupuncture and chiropractic or acupuncture and osteopathy are not. I believe that the TCM theories of diagnosis and treatment utilized by licensed acupuncturists play an important role in the efficacy or lack of efficacy in acupuncture. You also say that, " Once one embarks upon utilizing to help people, additional learning follows naturally. " I'm sure that's true in your case. However, I have a current patient who came to me after receiving ineffectual acupuncture from a DO. This practitioner utilized one of the new computer software programs that " reads " the patient's energy channels and provides a pretty multicolored chart. When my patient asked this person to explain what it all meant, he was unable to do so and could only offer that it tells him where to put the needles. In my experience, when people come to me and say that they have tried acupuncture in the past with poor results, more often than not the practitioner was not a licensed acupuncturist and had no understanding of the TCM theories of diagnosis and treatment that inform acupuncture. This example was, as you say in another of your posts in this thread, " a good source of additional income " for me. There is, however, a bigger picture here: You claim that " Whether one begins with trigger point therapy, acupressure or gensing (sic), matters little in the overall scheme of things. And what one calls the therapy matters only slightly more. " I beg to differ. What of all of the patients who receive sub-par acupuncture treatments from practitioners with comparatively little training to licensed acupuncturists? Do they walk away thinking that " chiropractic acupuncture " or " allopathic acupuncture " doesn't work? I doubt it. I'm sure many of these folks now believe that acupuncture isn't an effective modality. And that's bad for business AND the profession as a whole. MY profession. Nomenclature does matter. Sincerely, Kim Blankenship, L.Ac. On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 6:04 AM, William Morse, D.C., FIACA < dokkabill wrote: > Having practiced honest, effective and diverse Acupuncture as a " Chiro- > puncturist " for 30 years, I resent the immature labeling and name > calling so rampant among some members of this group. Especially the > assumptions that allied professionals know nothing of TCM. Once one > embarks upon utilizing to help people, additional > learning follows naturally. Whether one begins with trigger point > therapy, acupressure or gensing, matters little in the overall scheme > of things. And what one calls the therapy matters only slightly more. > > There are numerous OMD's in the US practicing " formula-puncture " with > adjunctive herbalism thrown in for effect and calling it TCM > or " Modern " . So what's the big deal? > > Chinese medicine is becoming rapidly accepted in the West and, not > surprisingly, because People are getting well. > > Whatever it is we're doing is working. ALL of us have contributed to > this. It's time to join forces to insure a sustainable profession, not > divest ourselves and contribute to elitism and name calling. > > Besides, TCM and Acupuncture are not the same thing - any more than > Aspirin and Allopathy are! > > Bill > > > -- Take care - Kim Om Namah Shivaya [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --- Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia To change your email delivery settings, click, and adjust accordingly. Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 2008 Report Share Posted July 15, 2008 > Sorry, I'm not the Bill you think I am. oops. got your name mixed up with William Morris. That would explain the DC confusion... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 2008 Report Share Posted July 15, 2008 Hi Bill – As a licensed acupuncturist, I'm afraid I have to take exception to some of your rather contentious points. Earlier in this thread in an attempt to separate acupuncture and TCM you stated that " TCM and Acupuncture are not the same thing… " You're right, they're not, and I don't know anyone who claims that they are the same thing. However, acupuncture and TCM are classically and inextricably linked. Acupuncture and chiropractic or acupuncture and osteopathy are not. I believe that the TCM theories of diagnosis and treatment utilized by licensed acupuncturists play an important role in the efficacy or lack of efficacy in acupuncture. You also say that, " Once one embarks upon utilizing to help people, additional learning follows naturally. " I'm sure that's true in your case. However, I have a current patient who came to me after receiving ineffectual acupuncture from a DO. This practitioner utilized one of the new computer software programs that " reads " the patient's energy channels and provides a pretty multicolored chart. When my patient asked this person to explain what it all meant, he was unable to do so and could only offer that it tells him where to put the needles. In my experience, when people come to me and say that they have tried acupuncture in the past with poor results, more often than not the practitioner was not a licensed acupuncturist and had no understanding of the TCM theories of diagnosis and treatment that inform acupuncture. This example was, as you say in another of your posts in this thread, " a good source of additional income " for me. There is, however, a bigger picture here: You claim that " Whether one begins with trigger point therapy, acupressure or gensing (sic), matters little in the overall scheme of things. And what one calls the therapy matters only slightly more. " I beg to differ. What of all of the patients who receive sub-par acupuncture treatments from practitioners with comparatively little training to licensed acupuncturists? Do they walk away thinking that " chiropractic acupuncture " or " allopathic acupuncture " doesn't work? I doubt it. I'm sure many of these folks now believe that acupuncture isn't an effective modality. And that's bad for business AND the profession as a whole. MY profession. Nomenclature does matter. Sincerely, Kim Blankenship, L.Ac. On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 6:04 AM, William Morse, D.C., FIACA < dokkabill wrote: > Having practiced honest, effective and diverse Acupuncture as a " Chiro- > puncturist " for 30 years, I resent the immature labeling and name > calling so rampant among some members of this group. Especially the > assumptions that allied professionals know nothing of TCM. Once one > embarks upon utilizing to help people, additional > learning follows naturally. Whether one begins with trigger point > therapy, acupressure or gensing, matters little in the overall scheme > of things. And what one calls the therapy matters only slightly more. > > There are numerous OMD's in the US practicing " formula-puncture " with > adjunctive herbalism thrown in for effect and calling it TCM > or " Modern " . So what's the big deal? > > Chinese medicine is becoming rapidly accepted in the West and, not > surprisingly, because People are getting well. > > Whatever it is we're doing is working. ALL of us have contributed to > this. It's time to join forces to insure a sustainable profession, not > divest ourselves and contribute to elitism and name calling. > > Besides, TCM and Acupuncture are not the same thing - any more than > Aspirin and Allopathy are! > > Bill > > > -- Take care - Kim Om Namah Shivaya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2008 Report Share Posted July 16, 2008 In the last few years, we've seen this topic come up about once/ year. Usually, a non-licensed acupuncturist gets booted off stage. Regardless of our opinions, I hope that your voice remains, so that we get other threads through the wire. My personal opinion is that anyone practicing any medical health profession should pass the National / State licensing tests in order to practice the medicine. That is a respectful and fair way to practice. A friend of mine is an MD who is in her last semester at a TCM school. She doesn't legally need the training to practice, but out of respect for the medicine, decided to undergo the training so that she could practice the medicine the way that it might have been meant to be practiced. I give a lot of respect to her for her actions. K. On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 2:32 PM, <acudoc11 wrote: > A few MDs, DOs or DCs who have gone beyond the " week-end-warrior " status > are > the exception as far as education in Acupuncture and/or TCM yet the > majority > are grossly under trained and ineffective. > > Time and time again trained acupuncturists have had to correct the > ineffective treatment of those poorly trained or untrained. FACT. > > In Florida, DCs only need the mere 100hrs and to pass a test from the > national Chiropractic Board (not the NCCAOM) whereas MDs and DOs need > absolutely NO > training. FACT. > > The " system " wants these failures in order to turn away the public from the > > real trained acupuncturists (and the very few MDs, DOs, DCs who are also > well > trained). > > In Florida many reimbursement plans are more than happy to pay for the > untrained MD/DO or poorly trained DC and NOT for the trained licensed > acupuncturist. FACT > > At last review....even the State of Florida Government Employee Plan > discriminates against it's own licensed acupuncturists in favor of the > untrained > MD/DO or sub-par trained. FACT. > > Richard > > > > > In a message dated 7/15/2008 4:16:47 P.M. Central Standard Time, > kuangguiyu <kuangguiyu%40gmail.com> writes: > > Hi Bill – > > As a licensed acupuncturist, I'm afraid I have to take exception to some of > your rather contentious points. Earlier in this thread in an attempt to > separate acupuncture and TCM you stated that " TCM and Acupuncture are not > the same thing… " You're right, they're not, and I don't know anyone who > claims that they are the same thing. However, acupuncture and TCM are > classically and inextricably linked. Acupuncture and chiropractic or > acupuncture and osteopathy are not. I believe that the TCM theories of > diagnosis and treatment utilized by licensed acupuncturists play an > important role in the efficacy or lack of efficacy in acupuncture. > > You also say that, " Once one embarks upon utilizing to > help > people, additional learning follows naturally. " I'm sure that's true in > your case. However, I have a current patient who came to me after receiving > ineffectual acupuncture from a DO. This practitioner utilized one of the > new computer software programs that " reads " the patient's energy channels > and provides a pretty multicolored chart. When my patient asked this person > to explain what it all meant, he was unable to do so and could only offer > that it tells him where to put the needles. In my experience, when people > come to me and say that they have tried acupuncture in the past with poor > results, more often than not the practitioner was not a licensed > acupuncturist and had no understanding of the TCM theories of diagnosis and > treatment that inform acupuncture. > > This example was, as you say in another of your posts in this thread, " a > good source of additional income " for me. There is, however, a bigger > picture here: You claim that " Whether one begins with trigger point > therapy, acupressure or gensing (sic), matters little in the overall scheme > of things. And what one calls the therapy matters only slightly more. " I > beg to differ. What of all of the patients who receive sub-par acupuncture > treatments from practitioners with comparatively little training to > licensed > acupuncturists? Do they walk away thinking that " chiropractic acupuncture " > or " allopathic acupuncture " doesn't work? I doubt it. I'm sure many of > these folks now believe that acupuncture isn't an effective modality. And > that's bad for business AND the profession as a whole. MY profession. > Nomenclature > does matter. > > Sincerely, > > Kim Blankenship, L.Ac. > > On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 6:04 AM, William Morse, D.C., FIACA < > dokkabill <dokkabill%40mindspring.com>> wrote: > > > Having practiced honest, effective and diverse Acupuncture as a " Chiro- > > puncturist " for 30 years, I resent the immature labeling and name > > calling so rampant among some members of this group. Especially the > > assumptions that allied professionals know nothing of TCM. Once one > > embarks upon utilizing to help people, additional > > learning follows naturally. Whether one begins with trigger point > > therapy, acupressure or gensing, matters little in the overall scheme > > of things. And what one calls the therapy matters only slightly more. > > > > There are numerous OMD's in the US practicing " formula-puncture " with > > adjunctive herbalism thrown in for effect and calling it TCM > > or " Modern " . So what's the big deal? > > > > Chinese medicine is becoming rapidly accepted in the West and, not > > surprisingly, because People are getting well. > > > > Whatever it is we're doing is working. ALL of us have contributed to > > this. It's time to join forces to insure a sustainable profession, not > > divest ourselves and contribute to elitism and name calling. > > > > Besides, TCM and Acupuncture are not the same thing - any more than > > Aspirin and Allopathy are! > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > -- > Take care - > > Kim > > Om Namah Shivaya > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2008 Report Share Posted July 16, 2008 Hi Kim: You are well spoken and make your points, especially as regards Professionalism and the profession, all of which I am in agreement with. And if I offended you or your profession, I apologize. However, you lapse into " horror stories " regarding failures of treatment by sup-par practitioners. I am sure no profession could appear in a good light when failures are the sole source of opinions and examples. What I have objected to in this thread (not necessarily your comments) are two things: One - the biased judgments based not on factual information, but rather personal anecdotes, and two - the supposition that minimal courses (usually 100 credit hours) given to MD's, DC's, DO's and the like are " weekend courses " and qualify as insufficient education. How much training did Barefoot Doctors receive? How much good work did they do? My intended message, if perhaps I did not express it well, is that Acupuncture, TCM and the practice of is in a precarious growth period and a quest for public and professional acceptance. All qualified practitioners of this science and art are important and have a role to play. So called " poorly trained " MD's are doing some very fine and effective research in Acupuncture. The very sort of practitioners slammed herein are helping to move the profession forward. It seems odd to me that no one appears to see the irony in that. That there are poor and perhaps dangerous practitioners out there is a valid concern and must be dealt with, but not by biased and blanket judgments. The apparent " My education is more valid than yours " sort of thinking is arrogant, inaccurate and ultimately a disservice to the profession. I would prefer to see a " Take a lousy Acupuncturist out to lunch " sort of approach. Not many practitioners are expert from the get go. Skills take time, diligence, practice and learning to develop. To help these poor souls and protect the public at large seems like a more humane approach to me. The profession does have to protect itself, but not by name calling and innuendo. Rather by heightened standards, education and assistance to less gifted practitioners. And the dangerous ones should be allowed to find some other form of income - forced to, if need be. So please look for good allied practitioners and support them. Enlist them to encourage the bad ones to find something else to do. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2008 Report Share Posted July 16, 2008 Come on Richard, take your anger out on something constructive. While I recognize there are bad apples in every barrel, I doubt you can support your suppositions with any facts. 100 hours training on top of 8 years of a medical education is not insignificant, nor is it steller. Neither is 2 to 4 years of TCM education. Skills develop over time. Some practitioners will never go beyond " cookbook " formulas, but people will get well. That's what's really important. Now, getting rid of bad practitioners is a real and valid problem. I can only say that licensure, education and peer pressure are our only tools to combat this. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2008 Report Share Posted July 16, 2008 K I agree. Bill P.S. There are other ways of showing respect for the medicine as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2008 Report Share Posted July 16, 2008 I am another chiro-puncturist who has gone well beyond the usual training and respects TCM principles. I know what the LAc's are talking about. I would say about 80% of DC's doing acupuncture can do pattern work (cookbook style) or reflex work just fine and without harming people, but do not understand and utilize TCM principles to the degree an Lac does. I think the issue with labels, laws, professional organizations, etc. is two-fold: 1. To make sure people are not practicing who could potentially harm a patient. It seems that professions like DCs, PTs, LMTs and LAcs were at one time not regulated but slowly each developed a professional licensing board to protect the public from being harmed by a person not fully trained. a. Example: DCs were worried that PTs adjusting people's necks could potentially harm the patient if the PT did not have sufficient training in the biomechanics and neurology of the cervical spine. 2. Professional licensing boards also have a mission to keep their profession strong. This means people that are doing some DIFFERENT should not be able to call themselves licensed in that profession. a. Example: DCs seem to be the only profession that diagnoses and treats spinal subluxations. If PTs and MDs start adjusting necks, the public may see no need to see a DC. b. Example: LAcs are the only profession to understand, utilize and treat the general health of people using TCM principles, and acupuncture is one form of treatment. If a patient goes to a DC who uses a reflex computer program and inserts needles and calls it acupuncture the public will soon think that is acupuncture and may not need to go to a Lac. This could eventually dilute the power of the profession and the theories behind it. I personally am troubled because I am a DC who understands quite a bit about TCM principles and utilizes acupuncture much like an Lac but I am forbidden to get that license without going back to 4 years of school. I am already trained in anatomy, physiology, etc. and know a lot about humans and health. I also could pass any NCCAOM licensing exam. I feel I would not harm people and I feel I have nearly as much knowledge as many new LAcs. But they cannot make individual exceptions. The line has to be drawn somewhere, I am just unfortunately right near the line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2008 Report Share Posted July 16, 2008 Richard i wander if you can document these FACTS thanks 400 29th St. Suite 419 Oakland Ca 94609 alonmarcus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2008 Report Share Posted July 16, 2008 Alon Which facts.........as there are many? You are welcome to come to Florida and peruse three circuit court cases, three Appellate court cases, one " nut-judge pleading " (Extraordinary Writ of Prohibition). As further background there is my Federal lawsuit against the State of Florida and Dr. Paul Reinhardt's law suit in State and Federal court (against Florida) regarding naturopathic medicine and a separate Mandamus by Dr. Paul Reinhardt against Miami-Dade College and the Florida Dept of Health for apparently running programs for foreign graduates (not necessarily medical graduates) to take a 4 week course in physician assistant education to sit a non-existent Florida PA exam resulting in PA licenses " given " without the statutory background. As to the MD from New Jersey.....all one need do is review the Florida Board of Acupuncture minutes from 2004 and the Board attorney (AG's) chiding the board for violating statute for their issuing him an acupuncture license. The primary individual who drove that issue has recently been ousted from the Board by not receiving re-appointment by Governor Crist. As to the State of Florida's Employee Health Plan all you need to do is review the Plan explanation booklet and Plan documents and one can clearly see how MDs, DOs, DCs get reimbursed with a lower deductible for the patient and a higher reimbursement. The last checked it was.... $750 annual deductible for MDs, DOs, DCs administering acupuncture with reimbursement at 80% while for the duly licensed Florida acupuncturist the deductible was $1,500. annual and reimbursement at 60%. Sound like a fair plan? Proof enough? The Florida Board of Acupuncture members have been, during the past twelve months, attempting to biomedicalize Chinese medicine as practiced in Florida. I won't quote names from another net-group but here is an excerpt taken by one of the respected teachers and elders of the TCM profession. " I've also worked in hospital settings in the past, and I agree we have a lot to offer within that system as well. I am more concerned with a wholesale integration of our profession into biomedical health care settings and insurance/HMO protocols. " Read the Board of Acupuncture minutes (available on line) and my Administrative Review Request to the lawyers serving the Florida Senate & House (Joint Administrative Procedures Committee) regarding the Board's attempt to normalize the " giving " of acupuncture licenses to foreigners who don't qualify according to the present statutes. The Florida Board of Acupuncture CANNOT waive statutes at their " whim and fancy " yet they have done so and continue to do so and someone's prodding and agenda. After 28 years of hiding their " giving " of licenses to foreigners now they (DOH et al) are attempting to use a credentialing service (one of the DOH's comrades) instead of using the IERF (an independent service) - International Educational Research Foundation is the premiere credentialing organization since 1969 used by at the New York Board of Regents and the whole New York University system. As to other licensees being " given " licenses..........all their files are available under Public Record requests. It's a journey during the past eight years amassing probably over 10,000 pages of documentation. Richard cc: Dr. Paul J. Reinhardt, MD, OMD In a message dated 7/16/2008 12:51:44 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, alonmarcus writes: Richard i wander if you can document these FACTS thanks Alon Marcus DOM **************Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com! (http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus00050000000112) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2008 Report Share Posted July 16, 2008 Barefoot doctors treated more people in 30 days than most American practitioners treat in ten years. Richard In a message dated 7/16/2008 5:30:45 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kuangguiyu writes: BTW most Barefoot Doctors underwent three to six months of intensive training and some studied for over a year. And six months of intensive training in China covered a lot of ground, especially considering that most of it was clinical training. **************Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com! (http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus00050000000112) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2008 Report Share Posted July 16, 2008 Alon What you say is only in part true. Board's are ONLY allowed to promulgate rules where the legislature has given them specific legislative authority to make a rule. So it all depends on not only each state's healthcare statutes in general but more specifically each healthcare practice act. I stated a challenge to the MDs statute in Florida for nowhere in the statute do they have the authority to make a rule that they can even adjunctively USE acupuncture needles. The Florida Board of medicine spewed forth propaganda that MDs are G-d-like and they can do anything they want. After being involved in multiple Florida lawsuits and seeing first hand how crooked and rigged the courts are....I did not waste my time suing them. Keep in mind that every healthcare association in Florida is run by an attorney. And the Board's are also controlled by Dept of Health attorneys. Often we think these private associations are run by the profession but the reality is they are controlled by the Bar. Richard In a message dated 7/16/2008 6:35:49 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, alonmarcus writes: John Each profession has its own boards, so MDs and DCs may set there own standards of what " acupuncture " practice is. Its understandable that we as a profession are protective and defensive. But until we can show that one we get better results and two we are safer (and i am not talking about the kind anecdotal opinions we hear on lists such as this) we really do not have anything to stand on. It all comes back to the same issues. Alon **************Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com! (http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus00050000000112) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2008 Report Share Posted July 16, 2008 Hi Bill – Thanks for the apology, but it's really not necessary. I wouldn't characterize my recent example of one of my patient's disappointing experience with acupuncture as a " horror story " at all. She wasn't injured and her health was not further compromised by her encounter; she did, however, spend a considerable amount of money for 'acupuncture' and received no benefit. What disturbs me is the way she informed me that she had " tried acupuncture " and said it hadn't helped her condition at all. She gave me the computer-generated diagnosis and treatment plan that her 'acupuncturist' had given her. The practitioner's name was on the handout and it indicated that this person is a licensed DO. She considered this guy to be an 'acupuncturist' and was clearly disturbed that he was unable to discuss or explain his 'acupuncture'. Regarding your first objection concerning " biased judgments based not on factual information, but rather personal anecdotes " , you are correct in saying that I, as a licensed acupuncturist, am biased. However, it is a fact, in my experience, that by far most of the patients who have come to my clinic complaining of ineffectual acupuncture did not receive same from a L.Ac. And anecdotally speaking, my experience mirrors what I hear from my colleagues. Although I can't quote black and white statistics from a study to back up my point, neither can you provide something similar showing the high percentage of stellar results obtained by allopathic acupuncturists or chiro-puncturists. Anecdotal evidence is far from worthless and is all any of us have to go on at this point on this subject. And concerning your contention/supposition that 100 hours is sufficient training in a modality that traditionally encompasses thousands of hours of study, I hardly know where to start. You stated, " The apparent " My education is more valid than yours " sort 
of thinking is arrogant, inaccurate and ultimately a disservice to 
the profession. " It is not arrogant or inaccurate – just common sense – to point out the obvious value of having two or three thousand hours of didactic and clinical training as opposed to two or three hundred hours of training in the same discipline. I feel it is much more arrogant to claim that one-tenth of the training in anything is equivalent to pursuing the full course of study. (You might have a point if the 100 hours were being taught by Hua Tuo or Bian Que, however…) And the disservice to the profession, my profession, occurs when undertrained " allied professionals " deliver ineffectual acupuncture and their patients then have the idea that acupuncture " doesn't work " . Granted, I know some excellent " allied professional " acupuncturists, but most of these folks, even though their primary treatment modality is something other than acupuncture, have taken the full complement of coursework or well more than 100 - 200 hours. And there are admittedly L.Ac.s out there who are delivering sub-par treatments; I know this is unfortunately true in all professions. Educational standards of TCM schools have been widely discussed on this forum before and are certainly worthy of further discussion, but this thread is specifically concerned with the education required of " allied professionals " in order to practice my profession. Your suggestion to mentor struggling practitioners is admirable and common-sensical, but if I were to take the 'lousy chiro-puncturist' who served as the basis for this discussion out to lunch, we would apparently have so little in common educationally that it would be difficult to maintain a conversation for long. And that's my point and concern: practitioners who have no training in acupuncture theory/diagnostics and only know where to 'put the needles' based on reflex-point theory and anatomy or are relying on a machine they don't even comprehend to diagnose are not practicing my profession, acupuncture. As Richard suggested a few days ago in that same initial thread, call it medi-puncture or chiro-puncture or allo-puncture, anything but acupuncture. To call these newly created disciplines acupuncture is grossly disrespectful and inaccurate – and a disservice to MY profession. BTW most Barefoot Doctors underwent three to six months of intensive training and some studied for over a year. And six months of intensive training in China covered a lot of ground, especially considering that most of it was clinical training. Sincerely, Kim Blankenship, L.Ac. On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 6:08 PM, William Morse, D.C., FIACA < dokkabill wrote: > Hi Kim: > > You are well spoken and make your points, especially as regards > Professionalism and the profession, all of which I am in agreement > with. And if I offended you or your profession, I apologize. > > However, you lapse into " horror stories " regarding failures of > treatment by sup-par practitioners. I am sure no profession could > appear in a good light when failures are the sole source of opinions > and examples. > > What I have objected to in this thread (not necessarily your > comments) are two things: One - the biased judgments based not on > factual information, but rather personal anecdotes, and two - the > supposition that minimal courses (usually 100 credit hours) given to > MD's, DC's, DO's and the like are " weekend courses " and qualify as > insufficient education. How much training did Barefoot Doctors > receive? How much good work did they do? > > My intended message, if perhaps I did not express it well, is that > Acupuncture, TCM and the practice of is in a > precarious growth period and a quest for public and professional > acceptance. All qualified practitioners of this science and art are > important and have a role to play. So called " poorly trained " MD's > are doing some very fine and effective research in Acupuncture. The > very sort of practitioners slammed herein are helping to move the > profession forward. It seems odd to me that no one appears to see > the irony in that. > > That there are poor and perhaps dangerous practitioners out there is > a valid concern and must be dealt with, but not by biased and blanket > judgments. The apparent " My education is more valid than yours " sort > of thinking is arrogant, inaccurate and ultimately a disservice to > the profession. > > I would prefer to see a " Take a lousy Acupuncturist out to lunch " > sort of approach. Not many practitioners are expert from the get > go. Skills take time, diligence, practice and learning to develop. > To help these poor souls and protect the public at large seems like a > more humane approach to me. > > The profession does have to protect itself, but not by name calling > and innuendo. Rather by heightened standards, education and > assistance to less gifted practitioners. And the dangerous ones > should be allowed to find some other form of income - forced to, if > need be. > > So please look for good allied practitioners and support them. > Enlist them to encourage the bad ones to find something else to do. > > > Bill > > > -- Take care - Kim Om Namah Shivaya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2008 Report Share Posted July 16, 2008 Looks to me like this doctor has pretty good documentation and should give some folks cause for " lock jaw. " There is more to this. For instance, one may get a 4 or 6 year medical degree from overseas (ie. China, Europe, and South America) and come here and challenge the M.D. licensing exam and actually be licensed as an MD here in the states. Also, to qualify to medical school here in the U.S. the requirement is an associate degree, although most to have a B.S. in pre-med, though it's not required. Many Chiros I know only have 3,600 hours post-grad and an associate degree. Do not be mis-led by inflated and false educational requirements. I think we should be able to challenge the M.D. exam and if we can pass, shouldn't we be able to practice too? Donald J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. : habeas_1: acudoc11: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 07:30:39 -0400Re: Re: TCM , Acupuncture or What? AlonWhich facts.........as there are many?You are welcome to come to Florida and peruse three circuit court cases, three Appellate court cases, one " nut-judge pleading " (Extraordinary Writ of Prohibition).As further background there is my Federal lawsuit against the State of Florida and Dr. Paul Reinhardt's law suit in State and Federal court (against Florida) regarding naturopathic medicine and a separate Mandamus by Dr. Paul Reinhardt against Miami-Dade College and the Florida Dept of Health for apparently running programs for foreign graduates (not necessarily medical graduates) to take a 4 week course in physician assistant education to sit a non-existent Florida PA exam resulting in PA licenses " given " without the statutory background.As to the MD from New Jersey.....all one need do is review the Florida Board of Acupuncture minutes from 2004 and the Board attorney (AG's) chiding the board for violating statute for their issuing him an acupuncture license. The primary individual who drove that issue has recently been ousted from the Board by not receiving re-appointment by Governor Crist.As to the State of Florida's Employee Health Plan all you need to do is review the Plan explanation booklet and Plan documents and one can clearly see how MDs, DOs, DCs get reimbursed with a lower deductible for the patient and a higher reimbursement. The last checked it was.... $750 annual deductible for MDs, DOs, DCs administering acupuncture with reimbursement at 80% while for the duly licensed Florida acupuncturist the deductible was $1,500. annual and reimbursement at 60%. Sound like a fair plan? Proof enough?The Florida Board of Acupuncture members have been, during the past twelve months, attempting to biomedicalize Chinese medicine as practiced in Florida. I won't quote names from another net-group but here is an excerpt taken by one of the respected teachers and elders of the TCM profession. " I've also worked in hospital settings in the past, and I agree we have a lot to offer within that system as well. I am more concerned with a wholesale integration of our profession into biomedical health care settings and insurance/HMO protocols. " Read the Board of Acupuncture minutes (available on line) and my Administrative Review Request to the lawyers serving the Florida Senate & House (Joint Administrative Procedures Committee) regarding the Board's attempt to normalize the " giving " of acupuncture licenses to foreigners who don't qualify according to the present statutes. The Florida Board of Acupuncture CANNOT waive statutes at their " whim and fancy " yet they have done so and continue to do so and someone's prodding and agenda.After 28 years of hiding their " giving " of licenses to foreigners now they (DOH et al) are attempting to use a credentialing service (one of the DOH's comrades) instead of using the IERF (an independent service) - International Educational Research Foundation is the premiere credentialing organization since 1969 used by at the New York Board of Regents and the whole New York University system.As to other licensees being " given " licenses..........all their files are available under Public Record requests. It's a journey during the past eight years amassing probably over 10,000 pages of documentation. Richardcc: Dr. Paul J. Reinhardt, MD, OMDIn a message dated 7/16/2008 12:51:44 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, alonmarcus writes:Richard i wander if you can document these FACTSthanksAlon Marcus DOM**************Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com! (http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus00050000000112)[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2008 Report Share Posted July 16, 2008 John Each profession has its own boards, so MDs and DCs may set there own standards of what " acupuncture " practice is. Its understandable that we as a profession are protective and defensive. But until we can show that one we get better results and two we are safer (and i am not talking about the kind anecdotal opinions we hear on lists such as this) we really do not have anything to stand on. It all comes back to the same issues. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 2008 Report Share Posted July 17, 2008 I think what this recent discussion truly illustrates are a couple of fundamental issues: As long as we view and represent ourselves as Acupuncturists rather than Oriental (or Asian, Chinese,..) medicine practitioners it is much easier to reduce this powerful medicine to a mere technique that can be learned, at least to an entry level proficiency, in a few weekends. Anyone who has taken the time to study our medicine from the ground up knows that it is a very complex and complete medical system, and learning how to stick needles into patients is one of the easiest things to learn. Without a solid foundation in zhang fu, meridian pathways, tongue, pulse, and other symptomatic diagnostics however, that is all you are doing: sticking needles into people. I personally don't have any problems with MDs , Chiros, NDs, DOs sticking needles into people- just don't call it Acupuncture unless you have studied the medical system that it is part of. Unfortunately the comments of the two chiros participating in this discussion illustrate perfectly how many view our medicine. A good friend of mine, who is a chiropractor, told me that he could teach me most adjustments in a weekend. So by the logic applied , should I encounter a patient of mine who I think would benefit from an adjustment in addition to one of my treatments, I should just study the adjustment technique and adjust him/her. And hey, if I am not that good at it, just keep doing it and I'll get better. Maybe I can even take out a local chiropractor for tea and pick up some tips Because I view Chiropractic medicine as a medical system (and really want to keep my license) however, what I will do instead is to refer that patient to a chiropractor for an adjustment. If I really felt inclined to do adjustments, I would go to a chiropractic college (hopefully getting credit for the Anatomy, Physiology, Pathology,… courses that were part of my education) study the medicine , pass the boards and give my patients adjustments. And as much as I appreciate that other health care professionals are intrigued by the amazing results delivered by Oriental Medicine, what is wrong with referring patients to a licensed provider in that medicine? Or, if really interested in practicing our medicine go back to school, study it, pass the boards and practice it? What do think would happen if MDs suggested that they should be allowed to practice Dentistry after taking a 300 hour course. The 32 teeth and the mouth were all covered in Anatomy and Physiology anyway, and they could call themselves " Medical Dentists. " While this might sound like hyperbole it isn't that far fetched , and yet you know the dental profession would never let that happen. This brings me to my second point. I think our profession really is at a cross roads. With medical costs rising at a speed matching that of gasoline prices, and people increasingly losing faith in allopathic medicine, Oriental medicine offer a potent and cost effective option. But unless we as a profession coalesce and stand up for our rights I believe the momentum moving in our direction will not propel us forward , but present a " low hanging fruits " opportunity to other, more organized medical professions. And yet membership in State and National organizations is low, and intra disciplinary squabbling sometimes reaches a level bordering on childish. Other professions (Chiros, NDs, and even PTs) have understood that a doctoral degree is a must to advance their respective disciplines to a higher level of professionalism, and yet we continue silly and misinformed infighting without any progress. I think most of us who took the time to get schooled in this wonderful and amazing medicine have a pretty good grasp on the healing, or Yin, aspect of this medicine, but as a profession we are severely Yang deficient. There is a new day dawning for our medicine, but we must seize it or others will do it for us. Jens Maassen L.Ac. Chinese Medicine , acudoc11 wrote: > > Alon > > What you say is only in part true. > > Board's are ONLY allowed to promulgate rules where the legislature has given > them specific legislative authority to make a rule. > > So it all depends on not only each state's healthcare statutes in general > but more specifically each healthcare practice act. > > I stated a challenge to the MDs statute in Florida for nowhere in the > statute do they have the authority to make a rule that they can even adjunctively > USE acupuncture needles. The Florida Board of medicine spewed forth propaganda > that MDs are G-d-like and they can do anything they want. > > After being involved in multiple Florida lawsuits and seeing first hand how > crooked and rigged the courts are....I did not waste my time suing them. Keep > in mind that every healthcare association in Florida is run by an attorney. > And the Board's are also controlled by Dept of Health attorneys. > > Often we think these private associations are run by the profession but the > reality is they are controlled by the Bar. > > Richard > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 2008 Report Share Posted July 17, 2008 Here's a fact for you. Only 22% of all of allopathic medical practices have undergone rigorous double-blind placebo controlled studies. The other 78+% of medical practice is called " standard accepted medical practice. " That's right. They want 100% of our medicine proven by research, yet they exempt their own medicine. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc : alonmarcus: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 15:35:13 -0700Re: TCM , Acupuncture or What? JohnEach profession has its own boards, so MDs and DCs may set there own standards of what " acupuncture " practice is. Its understandable that we as a profession are protective and defensive. But until we can show that one we get better results and two we are safer (and i am not talking about the kind anecdotal opinions we hear on lists such as this) we really do not have anything to stand on. It all comes back to the same issues.Alon400 29th St. #419[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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