Re:De Qi needling research studies?

[Guest guest]

So, are there any studies out using De qi in comparison of clinical

outcomes?

 

Are there any problems with a study of that nature?

 

Without actually utilizing De qi needling for the treatment group,

I can understand why placebo needling can be almost as effective as " real

acupuncture " in clinical trials.

 

Another issue is that they are using the sham needles on the same acupoints

as the treatment group.

If you even touch a point there is some type of response; you don't have to

puncture the skin.

Then, there has to be some studies conducted in relation to the depth of

needling.

If you needle ST 36 .5 " , it leads to a very different affect than needling

it 1.2 " in the same person.

 

Also, the power of placebo is important. Because if you're brain believes

something

(even virtually, by the 5 senses or the power of suggestion) then it might

as well be happening.

So, all of these studies just prove the power of the mind-body connection.

 

K.

 

 

 

 

On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 5:57 PM, alon marcus <alonmarcus wrote:

 

> Remember De Qi in Japanese tradition does not mean the patient feeling

> but practitioner's

> Alon

>

>

 

 

 

--

aka Mu bong Lim

Father of Bhakti

 

The Four Reliances:

Do not rely upon the individual, but rely upon the teaching.

As far as teachings go, do not rely upon the words alone, but rely upon the

meaning that underlies them.

Regarding the meaning, do not rely upon the provisional meaning alone, but

rely upon the definitive meaning.

And regarding the definitive meaning, do not rely upon ordinary

consciousness, but rely upon wisdom awareness.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Kokko, Some links that may be of interest to you...

 

http://www.liebertonline.com/doi/abs/10.1089/acm.2007.0524

 

http://npcc.vghtpe.gov.tw/pet-5year/Clinical/PET_acu.htm

 

http://www.uvm.edu/annb/faculty/langevin/

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10405732

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17034280

 

http://www.liebertonline.com/doi/abs/10.1089/acm.2006.12.743

 

http://medicalacupuncture.org/aama_marf/journal/vol13_1/pov2.html

 

 

~edith

 

 

 

 

On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 10:38 PM, <johnkokko wrote:

 

> So, are there any studies out using De qi in comparison of clinical

> outcomes?

>

> Are there any problems with a study of that nature?

>

> Without actually utilizing De qi needling for the treatment group,

> I can understand why placebo needling can be almost as effective as " real

> acupuncture " in clinical trials.

>

> Another issue is that they are using the sham needles on the same acupoints

> as the treatment group.

> If you even touch a point there is some type of response; you don't have to

> puncture the skin.

> Then, there has to be some studies conducted in relation to the depth of

> needling.

> If you needle ST 36 .5 " , it leads to a very different affect than needling

> it 1.2 " in the same person.

>

> Also, the power of placebo is important. Because if you're brain believes

> something

> (even virtually, by the 5 senses or the power of suggestion) then it might

> as well be happening.

> So, all of these studies just prove the power of the mind-body connection.

>

> K.

>

>

> On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 5:57 PM, alon marcus

<alonmarcus<alonmarcus%40wans.net>>

> wrote:

>

> > Remember De Qi in Japanese tradition does not mean the patient feeling

> > but practitioner's

> > Alon

> >

> >

>

> --

> aka Mu bong Lim

> Father of Bhakti

>

> The Four Reliances:

> Do not rely upon the individual, but rely upon the teaching.

> As far as teachings go, do not rely upon the words alone, but rely upon the

> meaning that underlies them.

> Regarding the meaning, do not rely upon the provisional meaning alone, but

> rely upon the definitive meaning.

> And regarding the definitive meaning, do not rely upon ordinary

> consciousness, but rely upon wisdom awareness.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Edith and all,

 

Thanks.. I'll read the abstracts. I'm also rereading Bruce Pomeranz's

survey study on Analgesic Acupuncture (AA)

in Clinical Acupuncture : Scientific Basis.

There's some interesting info in Stephen Birch and Bob Felt's book :

Understanding Acupuncture:

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=E_tZEM_DxJ4C & pg=PA160 & lpg=PA160 & dq=bruce+pomera\

nz+analgesic+acupuncture & source=web & ots=kDVy__EQ_P & sig=6voW93bhzeux6reomOwjQOdnG\

9g & hl=en & sa=X & oi=book_result & resnum=6 & ct=result

 

Are you d to the M.D. Medical Acupuncture Journal? Is it worth the

bucks?

 

http://www.liebertpub.com/publication.aspx?pub_id=233

 

K.

 

 

On Sun, Jul 13, 2008 at 12:43 AM, Edith Chan, L.Ac. <chineseherbs

wrote:

 

> Hi Kokko, Some links that may be of interest to you...

>

> http://www.liebertonline.com/doi/abs/10.1089/acm.2007.0524

>

> http://npcc.vghtpe.gov.tw/pet-5year/Clinical/PET_acu.htm

>

> http://www.uvm.edu/annb/faculty/langevin/

>

> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10405732

>

> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17034280

>

> http://www.liebertonline.com/doi/abs/10.1089/acm.2006.12.743

>

> http://medicalacupuncture.org/aama_marf/journal/vol13_1/pov2.html

>

> ~edith

>

>

> On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 10:38 PM,

<johnkokko<johnkokko%40gmail.com>>

> wrote:

>

> > So, are there any studies out using De qi in comparison of clinical

> > outcomes?

> >

> > Are there any problems with a study of that nature?

> >

> > Without actually utilizing De qi needling for the treatment group,

> > I can understand why placebo needling can be almost as effective as " real

> > acupuncture " in clinical trials.

> >

> > Another issue is that they are using the sham needles on the same

> acupoints

> > as the treatment group.

> > If you even touch a point there is some type of response; you don't have

> to

> > puncture the skin.

> > Then, there has to be some studies conducted in relation to the depth of

> > needling.

> > If you needle ST 36 .5 " , it leads to a very different affect than

> needling

> > it 1.2 " in the same person.

> >

> > Also, the power of placebo is important. Because if you're brain believes

> > something

> > (even virtually, by the 5 senses or the power of suggestion) then it

> might

> > as well be happening.

> > So, all of these studies just prove the power of the mind-body

> connection.

> >

> > K.

> >

> >

> > On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 5:57 PM, alon marcus

<alonmarcus<alonmarcus%40wans.net>

> <alonmarcus%40wans.net>>

> > wrote:

> >

> > > Remember De Qi in Japanese tradition does not mean the patient feeling

> > > but practitioner's

> > > Alon

> > >

> > >

> >

> > --

> > aka Mu bong Lim

> > Father of Bhakti

> >

> > The Four Reliances:

> > Do not rely upon the individual, but rely upon the teaching.

> > As far as teachings go, do not rely upon the words alone, but rely upon

> the

> > meaning that underlies them.

> > Regarding the meaning, do not rely upon the provisional meaning alone,

> but

> > rely upon the definitive meaning.

> > And regarding the definitive meaning, do not rely upon ordinary

> > consciousness, but rely upon wisdom awareness.

> >

> >