Guest guest Posted July 4, 2008 Report Share Posted July 4, 2008 Z'ev: this does not rule out emotions such as grief. Lonny: Hi Z'ev. Nothing I said suggested any absence of grief or any emotional state. I said: " For example, if a person losses a loved one he or she will experience " pathological " grief to the degree they identify with what was " lost " and to the degree that their identification stops them from contacting the immortal essence of their loved one. " Emphasis here is to be placed on the word " pathological " . Of course its normal to experience grief in the presence of a loss! And such grief isn't pathological. But such grief does not cause illness if related to from a sane perspective. The perspective from the center of the circle would be to face it an bear it with dignity without creating karma or being a victim of it. And certainly never to deny it. Pathological grief would result from either the morbid infatuation with, or denial of, the emotion. But it's not the emotion that's causing the illness or any functional imbalance-it's the dysfunctional quality of the person's relationship to the emotion. Let's say someone experienced a loss and came down with a lung infection. I would always look at the quality of the person's relationship to the loss and their motivations. My thinking would never stop at " They had a loss, felt grief, and the grief weakened their lungs " . To me, this would be somewhat of a mechanistic, thermodynamic, approach that would never get to the real heart of the matter. It's not that it's wrong. It's just a relatively superficial level of analysis. A litmus test would be how victimized the person is in relationship to his or her experience. If a person is grieving and expressing no victimization I guarantee that their loss, and grief, will not contribute functionally to pathology. Great to hear from you!-Lon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 5, 2008 Report Share Posted July 5, 2008 Lonny, on Tue, 01 Jul 2008 21:32:11, wrote: >>. But I'd like to make the point that emotions do not cause illness. It's the quality of a patient's relationship to his or her emotions that can contribute to illness. Clearly in Chinese medical tradition, as per English translations, the " 7 internals/emotions " are listed as one of the three categories of the 'causes' of disease (the other two being the " 6 external xie " , and " misc. " i.e. accidents, etc.). At least back to the Song-dynasty master (forget his name) who made that famous, and, as we all know, this idea survives in modern textbook TCM. On the other hand, as both the SuWen author(s) and King David (psalm: " there is a time for [everything]… " ) point out, emotional states, coming and going as they arise in life, are entirely natural. If the individual flows with the natural arisings, i.e. letting them go as they cease by themselves, disease does not the result. This is one of the fundamental insights of Han medicine --- change, challenge is constantly happening; rolling with it brings health; getting stuck around it brings disease. Even without having studied the sources, I would guess that the Chinese author(s) of the " 7 internals/emotions " theory could arguable be interpreted as referring to some sort of " attachment " to such states of mind (i.e. as " pathological " ), and not simply their occurrence as the causal linkage to disease. A pivotal moment in my education came when Ted Kaptchuk recommended we (students at PCOM back ca. 1990) read Chapter 8 of Stephen Levine's book " Who Dies? " , on " Pain and Suffering " . Levine uses there a distinction between pain, as a birthright of being in a body, and suffering, as being caught in a personal relationship (e.g. emotional) to pain. He illustrates how the mind, consciousness (c.f. 'xin' as heart-mind) can reach a state, a modus operandi (practice) where it is, so to speak, " free " of the suffering while still in the presence of pain. The terminology here is problematic. Even Levine at times uses 'suffering' where 'pain', according to the above distinction, should apply. Common usage routinely confounds the two meanings. Yungians use a term 'legitimate suffering' for something like this 'pain'. I suspect Yehuda's association of pain with it's inevitable effects in people's lives lies somewhere in here too. Fri, 4 Jul 2008 10:42:17 -0700 wrote: >> Even if one has tapped the consciousness, which … is at the center point of the circle, this does not rule out emotions such as grief. … all peoples mourn the loss of loved ones … something of value is indeed lost of that person to this world. More than that: a core aspect in Levine's framework, as also in many Buddhist interpretations, is that experience of unconditioned reality, of the here-and-now present moment minus the proliferation of I-making stories, is a continually recurring experience of loss. Whatever arises inevitably ceases. (Even Buddhist 'liberating wisdom' culminates in 'cessation'!) In fact, 'i/me/mine' is considered to be a fabrication at least partially in denial of this inevitable loss; a deluded identification built of grasping towards and holding to momentary phenomena (such as emotions). BTW, Jeffery Yuen has noted an interesting correlation between this and 'damp-heat', and, at the extreme, 'hot-phelgm'. That is, 'heat' as in burning with desire, dissatisfaction, and 'damp' as in desperate holding on, as if one's very self depended on it. (Compare the current fashion in WM to discover 'inflammation' (damp-heat) as the root phenomena in a wide range of medical conditions, from migraine headaches to heart disease.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 5, 2008 Report Share Posted July 5, 2008 Buddhist interpretations, is that experience of unconditioned reality, of the here-and-now present moment minus the proliferation of I-making stories, is a continually recurring experience of loss. Lonny: Chris, thanks for the great post! As to the above statement I think this interesting. Though I have respect for literary sources, traditions, and the like I always subject everything to the scrutiny of my own experience. In light of that, it's interesting that the Buddhists focus so intently on the loss in comparison to the ecstatic liberation, lightness, and integrity that comes from renunciation of ever changing thought and feeling states. I suspect this in part reflects cultural issues around the metal element (especially in Japanese culture-Harakiri, chrysanthemum, etc.). Ang Li captured this so well in Crouching Tiger where the protagonist returns from a retreat early and upon being questioned by the object of his affection states, " I reached a place of emptiness, and longing that was infinite that my teacher had never told me about. I was not ready to let go and had to come back for something. " (of course we know what he wanted). I once experienced that state of infinite longing in the face of what is requiered.....but it really is just a morbid infatuation with a state condition.....it isn't the only place one can put one's attention OR the most significant thing that's going on in the process of development. I suspect also that this morbid relationship to loss arose at a time where leaving the world was the main objective....... as opposed to transforming the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 6, 2008 Report Share Posted July 6, 2008 Chris, Just a source correction, I agree with the sentiment. I think you are quoting King Solomon in Ecclesiastes, " to everything there is a season " . On Jul 4, 2008, at 9:26 PM, wrote: > On the other hand, as both the SuWen author(s) and King David (psalm: > " there is a time for [everything]… " ) point out, emotional states, > coming > and going as they arise in life, are entirely natural. If the > individual > flows with the natural arisings, i.e. letting them go as they cease by > themselves, disease does not the result. This is one of the > fundamental > insights of Han medicine --- change, challenge is constantly > happening; > rolling with it brings health; getting stuck around it brings disease. Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 7, 2008 Report Share Posted July 7, 2008 wrote: > Just a source correction, I agree with the sentiment. I think >you are quoting King Solomon in Ecclesiastes, " to everything there is >a season " . > > Z'ev, thanks. Actually the vivid memory goes back to some song by Bob Dylan, with vague understanding of a more ancient origin. After some other refenence to Ecclesiastes recently, I'll look that book up and read it. BTW, I've not been able to relocate that email where you mentioned a friend, CM practitioner, who's active in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. Could you kindly remind me of his/her name. A patient whose still over there needs skilled help. Thanks again, & good you see you thiriving and articulate at CSOMA gathering, Chris M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 7, 2008 Report Share Posted July 7, 2008 Chris, His name is Ofer Baronovitch, unfortunately I don't have contact info for him at this point. It was also great to see you at CSOMA. I wish I could have stayed longer to hang out with old friends like you, Alon and Jonah, and hit the bookstores and vegetarian restaurants in San Francisco. I hope to do that some time soon. . . Take care, On Jul 6, 2008, at 8:48 PM, wrote: > wrote: > > > Just a source correction, I agree with the sentiment. I think > >you are quoting King Solomon in Ecclesiastes, " to everything there is > >a season " . > > > > > Z'ev, > > thanks. Actually the vivid memory goes back to some song by Bob Dylan, > with vague understanding of a more ancient origin. After some other > refenence to Ecclesiastes recently, I'll look that book up and read > it. > > BTW, I've not been able to relocate that email where you mentioned a > friend, CM practitioner, who's active in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. Could > you kindly remind me of his/her name. A patient whose still over there > needs skilled help. > > Thanks again, & good you see you thiriving and articulate at CSOMA > gathering, > Chris M > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 7, 2008 Report Share Posted July 7, 2008 Ofer's cell number: *054-5884789 * 2008/7/7, <zrosenbe: > > Chris, > His name is Ofer Baronovitch, unfortunately I don't have contact > info for him at this point. > > It was also great to see you at CSOMA. I wish I could have stayed > longer to hang out with old friends like you, Alon and Jonah, and hit > the bookstores and vegetarian restaurants in San Francisco. I hope to > do that some time soon. . . > > Take care, > > > On Jul 6, 2008, at 8:48 PM, wrote: > > > wrote: > > > > > Just a source correction, I agree with the sentiment. I think > > >you are quoting King Solomon in Ecclesiastes, " to everything there is > > >a season " . > > > > > > > > Z'ev, > > > > thanks. Actually the vivid memory goes back to some song by Bob Dylan, > > with vague understanding of a more ancient origin. After some other > > refenence to Ecclesiastes recently, I'll look that book up and read > > it. > > > > BTW, I've not been able to relocate that email where you mentioned a > > friend, CM practitioner, who's active in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. Could > > you kindly remind me of his/her name. A patient whose still over there > > needs skilled help. > > > > Thanks again, & good you see you thiriving and articulate at CSOMA > > gathering, > > Chris M > > > > > > > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine > San Diego, Ca. 92122 > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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