Guest guest Posted July 1, 2008 Report Share Posted July 1, 2008 Bill: It is just my philosophy. You don't have to take it on. No one does. I will treat patients on a physical level, as well as any other level. Now, for my belief. I believe their are Karmic lessons to learn in life- that might involve the car accident or the ice. I also believe you can change your Karma and the direction of your life. There may be more Karma to deal with in another life, but at a higher/different level. I do find alot of patients get stuck at the mental level. Some patients feel, number one, I am the last resort after many procedural trys, and number two, that pain should go away in one or two treatments. If it doesn't, they are out of here with the next surgery. I often find they are stuck on a mental level. I would love for their pain to go away immediately, and I hold out that possiblity. But often they are stuck on a mental level. On the other hand, I will have a patient who comes in for elbow pain - referred by the last guy I treated whose elbow pain went away (and then he left). This patient quickly realizes that there is something much deeper going on than the elbow pain, and that it is just a symptom showing up for the discord in the rest of her life. The elbow pain gets relieved - not disappeared - and she begins to not think of it. Anne -- Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., M.Ac., Dipl.Ac. www.SouthernMDacupuncture.com -------------- Original message ---------------------- " bill_schoenbart " <plantmed2 > I can never understand how it can be claimed that all disease is > mental. What if you get hit by a car or slip on some ice? It seems > counterproductive to look at all disease this way. > > - Bill Schoenbart > > > > > Chinese Medicine , anne.crowley > wrote: > > > > > > > First, my opinion is that all disease is mental. > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2008 Report Share Posted July 1, 2008 I can never understand how it can be claimed that all disease is > mental. What if you get hit by a car or slip on some ice? It seems > counterproductive to look at all disease this way. > Lonny: All disease is not mental. This notion comes from the newage narcissistic superstition that " my thoughts and feelings create reality " . Consciousness is primary and at the root of all things. But sometimes things just happen for no reason whatsoever. At least for no reason that we will ever know. And the mind can't not know, its only function is to know, so it makes up stories. " It's my karma " etc. Buy a lottery ticket, in the face of not knowing the ind fluctuates between " I wasted my money " and " how am I going to spend my 300 million? " . The mind can generate a stiff neck, a stiff neck can agitate the mind. And sometimes a stiff neck is just a stiff neck with no wider implications. Sometimes a person gets hit by a car and it means nothing about them or their karma. Similarly dreams don't always have meaning and a coincidence isn't always a moment of synchro-destiny. I really think a lot of this notion about disease being mental comes from the postmodern ego's fascination with interpreting all life experience in relationship to itself. And, of course, a person can waste a life time focused on a single thought which was baseless in reality or significance and this can be embodied as pathology that CM is quite capable of identifying and treating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2008 Report Share Posted July 1, 2008 Of course it's absurd to assume that every illness has a mental cause, but it is reasonable to assume that every physical manifestation impacts our patients, mentally and emotionally. There is no question that pain causes the release of hormones and neurotransmitters, changing the internal milieu, as well as the PH of the body, manifesting in emotional imbalances to some degree. --- On Tue, 7/1/08, sppdestiny <Revolution wrote: sppdestiny <Revolution Re: Disease at Mental Level Chinese Medicine Tuesday, July 1, 2008, 6:43 AM I can never understand how it can be claimed that all disease is > mental. What if you get hit by a car or slip on some ice? It seems > counterproductive to look at all disease this way. > Lonny: All disease is not mental. This notion comes from the newage narcissistic superstition that " my thoughts and feelings create reality " . Consciousness is primary and at the root of all things. But sometimes things just happen for no reason whatsoever. At least for no reason that we will ever know. And the mind can't not know, its only function is to know, so it makes up stories. " It's my karma " etc. Buy a lottery ticket, in the face of not knowing the ind fluctuates between " I wasted my money " and " how am I going to spend my 300 million? " . The mind can generate a stiff neck, a stiff neck can agitate the mind. And sometimes a stiff neck is just a stiff neck with no wider implications. Sometimes a person gets hit by a car and it means nothing about them or their karma. Similarly dreams don't always have meaning and a coincidence isn't always a moment of synchro-destiny. I really think a lot of this notion about disease being mental comes from the postmodern ego's fascination with interpreting all life experience in relationship to itself. And, of course, a person can waste a life time focused on a single thought which was baseless in reality or significance and this can be embodied as pathology that CM is quite capable of identifying and treating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2008 Report Share Posted July 1, 2008 Yehuda: Of course it's absurd to assume that every illness has a mental cause, but it is reasonable to assume that every physical manifestation impacts our patients, mentally and emotionally. There is no question that pain causes the release of hormones and neurotransmitters, changing the internal milieu, as well as the PH of the body, manifesting in emotional imbalances to some degree. Lonny: Hello Yehuda. I think this is interesting to look into. What does it mean that " every physical manifestation impacts our patients, mentally and emotionally " ? If I have a sore neck then certainly I may have the thought " my neck is sore " and I may even have the thought, " this is bad " . I may also have an emotional experience such as anger and victimization. And yes, maybe all this can be quantified in terms of structural and neurochemical change. But being aware of such thoughts and feelings doesn't necessarily imply the presence of an " emotional imbalance " whatsoever. From a clinical point of view I'd only consider something to constitute an emotional imbalance if a person is identifying with it in a way that creates karma. The mere presence of thought or feeling would never suggest an imbalance to me. For example, if a person was experiencing rage or terror internally I wouldn't consider that to be an imbalance. It becomes an imbalance at the point the person compromises his or her integrity out of a conditioned response to the internal state. Let's say a persons rage or fear was disproportionate to what was going on in the moment. One could say " the emotion is unbalanced " but, in truth, that would always be a compensation of not being willing to face into the call for deeper integrity. It's never the emotion that's the problem but rather the patients morbid infatuation with it-always as a way of avoidance and always as a consciously or unconsciously made choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2008 Report Share Posted July 1, 2008 Exactly my point. Of course, there are many instances when a psycho-emotional cause underlies a physical problem. But it is counterproductive to seek this out in all cases. I'll give an example. One of my patients saw another practitioner for some symptoms of liver disease, among many other things. She had a red tongue with a full, wiry and rapid pulse. The practitioner told her, " Hmmm, rapid pulse. Fight or flight. What are you fleeing in your life " ? This seems to be the TCM version of blaming the patient, similar to when a doctor says that it is all in the patient's head when they can't find a physical cause. The patient was still upset about it the next time she came to see me. A simple prescription to clear liver damp heat took care of the symptoms. That's not to say that looking for an emotional cause is always a bad idea. It was just unnecessary in this case and upset the patient tremendously. It also distracted the practitioner from finding an effective treatment. In another instance, I was observing a Chinese specialist in a neurology clinic. A young boy with severe brain damage was the patient. It was really tragic, since this kid couldn't talk, hold up his head, and could barely eat. One of the students later asked me if we should really be treating the child. He said, " What if it's just his karma? Maybe he wants to be that way? " I feel sorry for this guy's future patients if he has that attitude. He should be a philosopher, not a doctor. My point is simply that s**t happens to the human body, and it doesn't always have to be traced back to psychological, emotional, spiritual, or karmic patterns. Sometimes it's just an owie that needs to be fixed. - Bill Schoenbart Chinese Medicine , " sppdestiny " <Revolution wrote: > > I can never understand how it can be claimed that all disease is > > mental. What if you get hit by a car or slip on some ice? It seems > > counterproductive to look at all disease this way. > > > > > Lonny: All disease is not mental. This notion comes from the newage > narcissistic superstition that " my thoughts and feelings create > reality " . Consciousness is primary and at the root of all things. But > sometimes things just happen for no reason whatsoever. At least for no > reason that we will ever know. And the mind can't not know, its only > function is to know, so it makes up stories. " It's my karma " etc. > Buy a lottery ticket, in the face of not knowing the ind fluctuates > between " I wasted my money " and " how am I going to spend my 300 > million? " . > > The mind can generate a stiff neck, a stiff neck can agitate the mind. > And sometimes a stiff neck is just a stiff neck with no wider > implications. Sometimes a person gets hit by a car and it means > nothing about them or their karma. Similarly dreams don't always have > meaning and a coincidence isn't always a moment of synchro-destiny. > > I really think a lot of this notion about disease being mental comes > from the postmodern ego's fascination with interpreting all life > experience in relationship to itself. > > And, of course, a person can waste a life time focused on a single > thought which was baseless in reality or significance and this can be > embodied as pathology that CM is quite capable of identifying and > treating. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2008 Report Share Posted July 1, 2008 > > I'll give an example. One of my patients saw another practitioner for > some symptoms of liver disease, among many other things. She had a red > tongue with a full, wiry and rapid pulse. The practitioner told her, > " Hmmm, rapid pulse. Fight or flight. What are you fleeing in your > life " ? Lonny: I would see " flight or fight " as a kidney related issue and not liver. Bill: A simple prescription to > clear liver damp heat took care of the symptoms. That's not to say > that looking for an emotional cause is always a bad idea. It was just > unnecessary in this case and upset the patient tremendously. It also > distracted the practitioner from finding an effective treatment. Lonny: I am always interested in finding out everything a patient can do to help his or her condition. The fact that a simple prescription helped the symptoms is great but it doesn't mean that the root was addressed. But I'd like to make the point that emotions do not cause illness. It's the quality of a patient's relationship to his or her emotions that can contribute to illness. Maybe the patient was upset because the previous practitioner just had the diagnosis wrong. I think it's always good to make the connection between a patient's symptoms, beliefs, and behaviors. But one can't force the issue. It does seem likely that a damp heat liver pattern would have an emotional component but that doesn't mean that the emotions are causing it-just that they are simultaneously present. Bill: In another instance, I was observing a Chinese specialist in a > neurology clinic. A young boy with severe brain damage was the > patient. It was really tragic, since this kid couldn't talk, hold up > his head, and could barely eat. One of the students later asked me if > we should really be treating the child. He said, " What if it's just > his karma? Maybe he wants to be that way? " I feel sorry for this guy's > future patients if he has that attitude. He should be a philosopher, > not a doctor. Lonny: This is more dumb postmodern conditioning. It reflects a very low understanding of karma. He wouldn't really make a god philosopher either. A case like this is, from my point of view, where compassion is a great virtue. BIll: My point is simply that s**t happens to the human body, and it doesn't > always have to be traced back to psychological, emotional, spiritual, > or karmic patterns. Sometimes it's just an owie that needs to be fixed. > > Lonny: Yes, and it's always interesting to see a person's relationship to what is going on. Frankly some patient's make up a lot of superstitious nonsense about their own condition, some are also highly victimized by it. SO even though the condition itself might not say much about them their relationship to it might. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2008 Report Share Posted July 1, 2008 Well said. Chinese Medicine , " sppdestiny " <Revolution wrote: > > > > > > I'll give an example. One of my patients saw another practitioner for > > some symptoms of liver disease, among many other things. She had a red > > tongue with a full, wiry and rapid pulse. The practitioner told her, > > " Hmmm, rapid pulse. Fight or flight. What are you fleeing in your > > life " ? > > > Lonny: I would see " flight or fight " as a kidney related issue and > not liver. > > > > Bill: A simple prescription to > > clear liver damp heat took care of the symptoms. That's not to say > > that looking for an emotional cause is always a bad idea. It was just > > unnecessary in this case and upset the patient tremendously. It also > > distracted the practitioner from finding an effective treatment. > > > Lonny: I am always interested in finding out everything a patient can > do to help his or her condition. The fact that a simple prescription > helped the symptoms is great but it doesn't mean that the root was > addressed. But I'd like to make the point that emotions do not cause > illness. It's the quality of a patient's relationship to his or her > emotions that can contribute to illness. Maybe the patient was upset > because the previous practitioner just had the diagnosis wrong. I > think it's always good to make the connection between a patient's > symptoms, beliefs, and behaviors. But one can't force the issue. It > does seem likely that a damp heat liver pattern would have an > emotional component but that doesn't mean that the emotions are > causing it-just that they are simultaneously present. > > > > > Bill: In another instance, I was observing a Chinese specialist in a > > neurology clinic. A young boy with severe brain damage was the > > patient. It was really tragic, since this kid couldn't talk, hold up > > his head, and could barely eat. One of the students later asked me if > > we should really be treating the child. He said, " What if it's just > > his karma? Maybe he wants to be that way? " I feel sorry for this guy's > > future patients if he has that attitude. He should be a philosopher, > > not a doctor. > > > Lonny: This is more dumb postmodern conditioning. It reflects a very > low understanding of karma. He wouldn't really make a god philosopher > either. A case like this is, from my point of view, where compassion > is a great virtue. > > > > BIll: My point is simply that s**t happens to the human body, and it > doesn't > > always have to be traced back to psychological, emotional, spiritual, > > or karmic patterns. Sometimes it's just an owie that needs to be fixed. > > > > Lonny: Yes, and it's always interesting to see a person's > relationship to what is going on. Frankly some patient's make up a lot > of superstitious nonsense about their own condition, some are also > highly victimized by it. SO even though the condition itself might not > say much about them their relationship to it might. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2008 Report Share Posted July 2, 2008 How do you know this for a fact? > Lonny: All disease is not mental. This notion comes from the newage > narcissistic superstition that " my thoughts and feelings create > reality " . Consciousness is primary and at the root of all things. But > sometimes things just happen for no reason whatsoever. At least for no > reason that we will ever know. And the mind can't not know, its only > function is to know, so it makes up stories. " It's my karma " etc. > Buy a lottery ticket, in the face of not knowing the ind fluctuates > between " I wasted my money " and " how am I going to spend my 300 > million? " . > > The mind can generate a stiff neck, a stiff neck can agitate the mind. > And sometimes a stiff neck is just a stiff neck with no wider > implications. Sometimes a person gets hit by a car and it means > nothing about them or their karma. Similarly dreams don't always have > meaning and a coincidence isn't always a moment of synchro-destiny. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 2008 Report Share Posted July 3, 2008 Lonnie: Could you please write more about what you mean regarding the " quality of a patient's relationship to his or her emotions... " Thank you. Stephanie Stephanie Jordan, OMD, PSYD. Rainbow Acupuncture, LLC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 2008 Report Share Posted July 3, 2008 Responses below: --- On Tue, 7/1/08, sppdestiny <Revolution wrote: sppdestiny <Revolution Re: Disease at Mental Level Chinese Medicine Tuesday, July 1, 2008, 8:25 AM Yehuda: Of course it's absurd to assume that every illness has a mental cause, but it is reasonable to assume that every physical manifestation impacts our patients, mentally and emotionally. There is no question that pain causes the release of hormones and neurotransmitters, changing the internal milieu, as well as the PH of the body, manifesting in emotional imbalances to some degree. Lonny: Hello Yehuda. I think this is interesting to look into. What does it mean that " every physical manifestation impacts our patients, mentally and emotionally " ? If I have a sore neck then certainly I may have the thought " my neck is sore " and I may even have the thought, " this is bad " . I may also have an emotional experience such as anger and victimization. And yes, maybe all this can be quantified in terms of structural and neurochemical change. But being aware of such thoughts and feelings doesn't necessarily imply the presence of an " emotional imbalance " whatsoever. I respectfully disagree. From my experience, ( and particularly from my vantage point as a craniosacral therapist as well) I see , beside the mechanical and chemical changes that can clearly be measured, in cases of pain such as you describe, clear emotional changes take place in patients as well. Pain takes its toll, it wears the happiest and strongest person out, and clearly has a sedative effect--it slows people down. I perceive these emotional changes (such as the feelings of anger or victimization you mention) as clearly sequellae of physical imbalance that caused pain, and not just resentment or frustration at incapacity. I also find that pulses reflect this as well, depending upon the particular emotion expressed and out of balance. From a clinical point of view I'd only consider something to constitute an emotional imbalance if a person is identifying with it in a way that creates karma. The mere presence of thought or feeling would never suggest an imbalance to me. For example, if a person was experiencing rage or terror internally I wouldn't consider that to be an imbalance. It becomes an imbalance at the point the person compromises his or her integrity out of a conditioned response to the internal state. But let's look at the responses you mention: Take rage or terror. What has happened to this person? He or she has integrated these emotions and caused them to affect their day to day responses. This has altered a normal balanced response to previously non-eventful every day challenges, such as seeing one's neighbor or getting into one's car. With pain, one avoids people and becomes hypersensitive to physical challenges. These certainly are examples of emotional imbalances directly resulting from physical pain. I'm not even talking about suppressed anger or resentment. I specifically am saying the physical state of pain , causes one to feel and act differently. Let's say a persons rage or fear was disproportionate to what was going on in the moment. One could say " the emotion is unbalanced " but, in truth, that would always be a compensation of not being willing to face into the call for deeper integrity. It's never the emotion that's the problem but rather the patients morbid infatuation with it-always as a way of avoidance and always as a consciously or unconsciously made choice. I don't think that the degree of the emotional response is the issue. Rather, if the patient who was already out of balance emotionally experiences new physical pain, it will put him more out of balance. A disproportionate response never occurs in a vacuum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 2008 Report Share Posted July 3, 2008 Stephanie: Could you please write more about what you mean regarding the " quality of a patient's relationship to his or her emotions... Lonny: Hello Stephanie, thanks for the great question. When qi moves externally there is weather and when it moves internally there are feelings. From a absolute perspective neither is personal. We all have the same feelings and they differ only in intensity from person to person. Human beings are always feeling something. Sincere meditation reveals fairly early on that thoughts and feelings are devoid of self nature. That means we comae to recognize that they are just objects in consciousness and there is none of " me " in them. The ego, from a spiritual perspective, is the mechanism that personalizes thoughts and feelings so that consciousness comes to identify with them as creating a separate self. It's pretty clear that most of us are so identified with our own thoughts and feelings that we actually leave little room for anything else in our awareness. Clinical practice reveals, in fact, that most people are terribly victimized by their thoughts and emotional states and are using CM as well as all practices (yoga, tai chi, etc) as a way of controlling their internal experience. But it is quite possible for a person to instead cultivate a perspective that remains stable, rational, and sane through all experience regardless of what thoughts or feelings he or she might be experiencing. Any real practice, teaching, or medicine would contribute to the strengthening of such a perspective. Newage healing values assume that if emotions are uncomfortable or thoughts are unpleasent, that there must be a problem. " I'll know I'm better when I'm not angry any more " . Medicine applied to manipulating feeling states is symptomatic medicine (ironically much 5E practice qualifies here at present). Only medicine that helps create a position of freedom through all experience is addressing the root-the habitual personalization of thought and feeling to create a false self image. It's not the presence of crazy thoughts or uncomfortable feelings that signifies or creates illness. It's the degree to which we dysfunctionally identify with them that is the root of the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 4, 2008 Report Share Posted July 4, 2008 Pain takes its toll, it wears the happiest and strongest person out, and clearly has a sedative effect--it slows people down. I perceive these emotional changes (such as the feelings of anger or victimization you mention) as clearly sequellae of physical imbalance that caused pain, and not just resentment or frustration at incapacity. I also find that pulses reflect this as well, depending upon the particular emotion expressed and out of balance. Lonny: Pain is a different phenomena than emotions. I would certainly distinguish between the two. Please read my answer to Stephanie on this topic that I posted today. Though experiences in life may make one feel victimized there is no necessity to have to identify with that or any emotion. There is no emotion in the world strong enough to compel us to identify with it or act out of it.I'm sure you can think of many examples of people who gave selflessly to great causes despite feeling unbearable emotional pain and uncertainty. Human will is paramount and no other internal force is greater. Perhaps human will is the most powerful capacity the universe has manifested to date. I am not saying that emotions don't show up on the pulse or that they aren't attendant to illness. What I'm saying is that emotions are never the source of illness. They constitute an outer dimension, they are objects in consciousness. Clearing the excessive presence of an emotion can certainly provide enough short term clarity that a person might be better able to identify with a more pure source of emotion. But if his or her fundamental relationship to emotion doesn't change it wont be a long term solution. Feelings aren't insignificant, but it's what a person's doing that always matters most in term of diagnosis, treatment, and prognosis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 4, 2008 Report Share Posted July 4, 2008 Dear Lonny, Your statement, " Pain is a different phenomena than emotions " is difficult for me to understand. The American Heritage Dictionary defines a phenomenon as, " An occurrence, circumstance, or fact that is perceptible by the senses, " which pain certainly is. But to contend as you go on to state that: " ...emotions are never the source of illness. They constitute an outer dimension, they are objects in consciousness.... " I believe directly contradicts Chinese medical tradition and clinical practice. Emotions are constituent parts of the total person, just as lungs and kidneys are! The Su Wen clearly teaches us a relationship between emotions and organs. And just as we treat physical manifestations of illness so too we treat emotional manifestations of illness. However, in contrast, whereas emotions are part of the internal terrain, pain is a phenomenon, and influences and impacts emotions, just as it affects one's mental and physical state. And it follows, therefore, that pain as a perceived phenomenon, does reverberate beyond the physical level. Your statement: " Though experiences in life may make one feel victimized there is no necessity to have to identify with that or any emotion. " again is predicated upon this idea that emotions are outside phenomena. But you miss my point and there is a distinction: I am not at all speaking of gross psychological dysfunctionality that may occur reactively, but rather subtle changes in mood and presentation which ALWAYS result from pain. The idea that one becomes " possessed " by extreme emotions such as depression, obsession or rage is indeed consistant with you premise that emotions are outside phenomena. But this is gross psychosis and invariably is the result of complex circumstances, rather than simple pain. This is why, IMVHO, Western psychiatry is so off base when treating pain with antidepressants, to prevent the depreciation of the " happy " neurotransmitters: nor-epinephrine, dopamine or serotonin, thus treating the symptom rather than the cause. Pain will always use up these neurotransmitters, but the correct approach should instead be to address the CAUSE of the pain and treat the organ and channel where it manifests, using acupuncture and bio-mechanics to create balance, and supplement with herbs to replenish the affected organ. So, for example, if the pain manifests as sadness or depression, consider supplementing Lung Qi, as fear, Kidney Qi, etc. By treating the root and whole person we contribute to ending the vicious cycle of drug dependency. respectfully, --- On Thu, 7/3/08, sppdestiny <Revolution wrote: sppdestiny <Revolution Re: Disease at Mental Level Chinese Medicine Thursday, July 3, 2008, 4:14 PM Pain takes its toll, it wears the happiest and strongest person out, and clearly has a sedative effect--it slows people down. I perceive these emotional changes (such as the feelings of anger or victimization you mention) as clearly sequellae of physical imbalance that caused pain, and not just resentment or frustration at incapacity. I also find that pulses reflect this as well, depending upon the particular emotion expressed and out of balance. Lonny: Pain is a different phenomena than emotions. I would certainly distinguish between the two. Please read my answer to Stephanie on this topic that I posted today. Though experiences in life may make one feel victimized there is no necessity to have to identify with that or any emotion. There is no emotion in the world strong enough to compel us to identify with it or act out of it.I'm sure you can think of many examples of people who gave selflessly to great causes despite feeling unbearable emotional pain and uncertainty. Human will is paramount and no other internal force is greater. Perhaps human will is the most powerful capacity the universe has manifested to date. I am not saying that emotions don't show up on the pulse or that they aren't attendant to illness. What I'm saying is that emotions are never the source of illness. They constitute an outer dimension, they are objects in consciousness. Clearing the excessive presence of an emotion can certainly provide enough short term clarity that a person might be better able to identify with a more pure source of emotion. But if his or her fundamental relationship to emotion doesn't change it wont be a long term solution. Feelings aren't insignificant, but it's what a person's doing that always matters most in term of diagnosis, treatment, and prognosis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 4, 2008 Report Share Posted July 4, 2008 I believe directly contradicts Chinese medical tradition and clinical practice. Lonny: One needs to distinguish between the original texts, the translation and interpretation of those texts by people with a postmodern value system, and the current state of our best knowledge now based on our direct experience. Emotions exist " out in the circle " -the Sheng (life) cycle. Samsara (shengsi:life/death)is the self identification with the goings on " out there " in that circle. Emotions are " objects in consciousness " as is the weather, as is thought. Consciousness is the single, absolute, point at the center of the circle. The point that sees through all relative phenomena. The point that is always free in the face of life's changing circumstances. The position that emotions " cause " illness is the victimized position taken by people " trapped " out in the circle. From an absolute perspective strong emotions are symptoms of a failure to recognize one's self as that which is always free-the taiji-the axis-the center of the circle. For example, if a person losses a loved one he or she will experience " pathological " grief to the degree they identify with what was " lost " and to the degree that their identification stops them from contacting the immortal essence of their loved one. Attached to form, rather than spirit, grief will grow and persist to become a habit. However it's not fundamentally the grief that's causing the problem, it's materialism. If your car throws a rod and oil sprays all over the windshield you could say that the oil caused you to crash by blinding you, you could say it was the fault of the rod, or you might trace it to the fact that the manufacturer knowingly used poor metal because money was the bottom line (materialism). In saying that emotions are the cause of disease one is not looking deeply enough. To say emotion is the cause of illness reflects only (please don't take this personally) a post modern, self-centered, narcissistic, value system, based on changing feeling states rather than on cultivating strength in that position that is free in the face of feeling states. This is wholly consistent with the view of medicine as laid down in the Daoist and Buddhist texts. They always depict meditators at the center of the circle with GV-20 aligned with the north star. They talk all about reversing the course of the sheng cycle and moving to the center of the circle free from the whirlpool of fear, desire, and fate. I discuss this with citation in Nourishing Destiny. Warm regards, Lonny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 4, 2008 Report Share Posted July 4, 2008 Lonny, Well I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I, too, speak from clinical experience which is consistent with my understanding of the Su Wen, as well as verifiable with clinical studies: Pain as a phenomenon affects heartbeat, blood pressure, respiration, craniosacral rhythm, PH, and nerve conductivity. Pain causes mood changes. These changes upset the delicate balance of emotions. And, BTW, it is also according to Maimonides, Galen, Avicenna and other healing traditions that emotions are viewed as an integral part of the internal milieu. Again, I understand the contention that gross psychiatric pathology can be understood as being taken hold of by an outside force, but that is aberration. Interestingly, according to Jewish tradition, on all levels, physically, spiritually, emotionally and mentally, when there is a void, an emptiness, a vacuity if you like, that chasm is filled in by pathogenic factors, but to say that all emotions originate from the outside I have great difficulty understanding. Are you contending that the Shen is not an essential part of the whole person? Yes, Shen imbalance is influenced from the outside, but is certainly part of the vital connectivity of our organs and emotions. Again, I conclude that our understandings of the texts and clinical dynamics and applications are diametrically opposed. Wishing you good health and wisdom, --- On Fri, 7/4/08, sppdestiny <Revolution wrote: sppdestiny <Revolution Re: Disease at Mental Level Chinese Medicine Friday, July 4, 2008, 8:14 AM I believe directly contradicts Chinese medical tradition and clinical practice. Lonny: One needs to distinguish between the original texts, the translation and interpretation of those texts by people with a postmodern value system, and the current state of our best knowledge now based on our direct experience. Emotions exist " out in the circle " -the Sheng (life) cycle. Samsara (shengsi:life/ death)is the self identification with the goings on " out there " in that circle. Emotions are " objects in consciousness " as is the weather, as is thought. Consciousness is the single, absolute, point at the center of the circle. The point that sees through all relative phenomena. The point that is always free in the face of life's changing circumstances. The position that emotions " cause " illness is the victimized position taken by people " trapped " out in the circle. From an absolute perspective strong emotions are symptoms of a failure to recognize one's self as that which is always free-the taiji-the axis-the center of the circle. For example, if a person losses a loved one he or she will experience " pathological " grief to the degree they identify with what was " lost " and to the degree that their identification stops them from contacting the immortal essence of their loved one. Attached to form, rather than spirit, grief will grow and persist to become a habit. However it's not fundamentally the grief that's causing the problem, it's materialism. If your car throws a rod and oil sprays all over the windshield you could say that the oil caused you to crash by blinding you, you could say it was the fault of the rod, or you might trace it to the fact that the manufacturer knowingly used poor metal because money was the bottom line (materialism) . In saying that emotions are the cause of disease one is not looking deeply enough. To say emotion is the cause of illness reflects only (please don't take this personally) a post modern, self-centered, narcissistic, value system, based on changing feeling states rather than on cultivating strength in that position that is free in the face of feeling states. This is wholly consistent with the view of medicine as laid down in the Daoist and Buddhist texts. They always depict meditators at the center of the circle with GV-20 aligned with the north star. They talk all about reversing the course of the sheng cycle and moving to the center of the circle free from the whirlpool of fear, desire, and fate. I discuss this with citation in Nourishing Destiny. Warm regards, Lonny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 4, 2008 Report Share Posted July 4, 2008 Lonny, Even if one has tapped the consciousness, which according to the model you display here, is at the center point of the circle, this does not rule out emotions such as grief. All traditions, all peoples mourn the loss of loved ones. Even if we are 'evolved' to the point where we see the essence of human beings, something of value is indeed lost of that person to this world. Existing in the realm of eternity does not negate our existence in the temporal world. On Jul 4, 2008, at 8:14 AM, sppdestiny wrote: > The position that emotions " cause " illness is the victimized position > taken by people " trapped " out in the circle. From an absolute > perspective strong emotions are symptoms of a failure to recognize > one's self as that which is always free-the taiji-the axis-the center > of the circle. > > For example, if a person losses a loved one he or she will experience > " pathological " grief to the degree they identify with what was " lost " > and to the degree that their identification stops them from contacting > the immortal essence of their loved one. Attached to form, rather than > spirit, grief will grow and persist to become a habit. However it's > not fundamentally the grief that's causing the problem, it's > materialism. If your car throws a rod and oil sprays all over the > windshield you could say that the oil caused you to crash by blinding > you, you could say it was the fault of the rod, or you might trace it > to the fact that the manufacturer knowingly used poor metal because > money was the bottom line (materialism). Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 5, 2008 Report Share Posted July 5, 2008 Yehuda: Pain as a phenomenon affects heartbeat, blood pressure, respiration, craniosacral rhythm, PH, and nerve conductivity. Pain causes mood changes. These changes upset the delicate balance of emotions. Lonny: Agreed. Nonetheless, a person can have different qualities of relationship to all this, right? One person may be totally enmeshed with it and victimized by it and another person could choose to be free in the face of it. And the clinical outcome will be quite different for both those people. Am I wrong? And is it not possible that a human could develop to such a point that emotions were not their primary focus? Not because they were avoiding them but because they had found something that exists prior to thought or feeling that was more compelling? Yehuda: And, BTW, it is also according to Maimonides, Galen, Avicenna and other healing traditions that emotions are viewed as an integral part of the internal milieu. Lonny: Agreed! But they are not the deepest level of the interior which is always consciousness/emptiness itself. Yehuda: Again, I understand the contention that gross psychiatric pathology can be understood as being taken hold of by an outside force, but that is aberration. Interestingly, according to Jewish tradition, on all levels, physically, spiritually, emotionally and mentally, when there is a void, an emptiness, a vacuity if you like, that chasm is filled in by pathogenic factors, Lonny: Agreed.But there are two types of possession. As crazy as a severely mentally ill person might seem to an average person. So too would an average person seem to someone who was looking from the perspective at the center of the circle. Yehuda: but to say that all emotions originate from the outside I have great difficulty understanding. Lonny: I think I have not made myself clear. I have not said that all emotions originate from the outside in the sense of being external pathogenic factors. I did say that when qi moves externally there is weather and when it moves internally there are emotions and both movements are impersonal. My point is that emotions and thoughts are objects in consciousness. They are relatively external to what is central which is consciousness-that which perceives them. DO you see what I'm pointing at? You are that which perceives the emotion, you are not the emotion. This is pretty basic stuff to any serious meditator. Yehuda: Are you contending that the Shen is not an essential part of the whole person? Lonny: No. If I define shen as consciousness, pure light, the evolutionary impulse (that which draws something out of nothing) then I'd say that shen is the best part of a person. Yehuda: Yes, Shen imbalance is influenced from the outside, but is certainly part of the vital connectivity of our organs and emotions. Again, I conclude that our understandings of the Lonny: I think we just had a basic misunderstanding. Does my explanation that emotions are clearly internal but are objects from the point of view of consciousness clear it up? It would be cool to come to an understanding on this because I think we just miscommunicated on this point and I'm wondering if it is now clear if the rest of my perspective seems more reasonable?.......That it's not the emotion that causes illness but rather the person's perspective on the emotion? What I'm saying is just an extension of the observation which is well established that perception of pain is relatively more cultural and psychological than mechanical. In other words, one person screams when I open my draw to get a needle and another person smiles when I do K-1. It's their relationship to the phenomena that's most important and not the mechanics or mere presence of the sensation. I hate flying.....but my relationship to that is such, because of my greater commitments.....that I literally pay NO attention to my fear of it. Another person takes sedatives because they will not bear their own mind. it's not the fear that's the problem-it's the degree of identification with it. THis seems totally reasonable to me....am I wrong? diametrically opposed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 5, 2008 Report Share Posted July 5, 2008 I think to this end I see that Dr. Candace Pert's Molecues of Emotion explain from the out to the in as far as emotions are concerned. The " things " we perceive are outside and the senses we use to perceive them bring them " insides " then the molues than occur as a result of the perception/perceiving generate an entire cascade of events. This is how the " non physical " becomes " physical " . based on the " emoting " (which even 4 celled organisms can do) determines which cell receptors come to the surface and which cascade takes place. If fear is the emotion then a different set of hormones andother molecues are cascaded into play. As we learn to have " emotional intelligence " from the outside observation we get a blueprint of how we can control our " internal " result. This is the difference in lower animals and humans i think, that we have the capabilty of doing this.Sincerely,Patricia Jordan DVM,CVA,CTCVM & Herbology : : Fri, 4 Jul 2008 09:58:27 -0700Re: Re: Disease at Mental Level Lonny, Well I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I, too, speak from clinical experience which is consistent with my understanding of the Su Wen, as well as verifiable with clinical studies: Pain as a phenomenon affects heartbeat, blood pressure, respiration, craniosacral rhythm, PH, and nerve conductivity. Pain causes mood changes. These changes upset the delicate balance of emotions. And, BTW, it is also according to Maimonides, Galen, Avicenna and other healing traditions that emotions are viewed as an integral part of the internal milieu. Again, I understand the contention that gross psychiatric pathology can be understood as being taken hold of by an outside force, but that is aberration. Interestingly, according to Jewish tradition, on all levels, physically, spiritually, emotionally and mentally, when there is a void, an emptiness, a vacuity if you like, that chasm is filled in by pathogenic factors, but to say thatall emotions originate from the outside I have great difficulty understanding. Are you contending that the Shen is not an essential part of the whole person? Yes, Shen imbalance is influenced from the outside, but is certainly part of the vital connectivity of our organs and emotions. Again, I conclude that our understandings of the texts and clinical dynamics and applications are diametrically opposed. Wishing you good health and wisdom, --- On Fri, 7/4/08, sppdestiny <Revolution wrote:sppdestiny <RevolutionRe: Disease at Mental LevelTo: Chinese Medicine: Friday, July 4, 2008, 8:14 AMI believe directly contradicts Chinesemedical tradition and clinical practice. Lonny: One needs to distinguish between the original texts, thetranslation and interpretation of those texts by people with apostmodern value system, and the current state of our best knowledgenow based on our direct experience. Emotions exist " out in the circle " -the Sheng (life) cycle. Samsara(shengsi:life/ death)is the self identification with the goings on " outthere " in that circle. Emotions are " objects in consciousness " as isthe weather, as is thought. Consciousness is the single, absolute,point at the center of the circle. The point that sees through allrelative phenomena. The point that is always free in the face oflife's changing circumstances.The position that emotions " cause " illness is the victimized positiontaken by people " trapped " out in the circle. From an absoluteperspective strong emotions are symptoms of a failure to recognizeone's self as that which is always free-the taiji-the axis-the centerof the circle.For example, if a person losses a loved one he or she will experience " pathological " grief to the degree they identify with what was " lost " and to the degree that their identification stops them from contactingthe immortal essence of their loved one. Attached to form, rather thanspirit, grief will grow and persist to become a habit. However it'snot fundamentally the grief that's causing the problem, it'smaterialism. If your car throws a rod and oil sprays all over thewindshield you could say that the oil caused you to crash by blindingyou, you could say it was the fault of the rod, or you might trace itto the fact that the manufacturer knowingly used poor metal becausemoney was the bottom line (materialism) . In saying that emotions are the cause of disease one is not lookingdeeply enough. To say emotion is the cause of illness reflects only(please don't take this personally) a post modern, self-centered,narcissistic, value system, based on changing feeling states ratherthan on cultivating strength in that position that is free in the faceof feeling states. This is wholly consistent with the view of medicine as laid down inthe Daoist and Buddhist texts. They always depict meditators at thecenter of the circle with GV-20 aligned with the north star. They talkall about reversing the course of the sheng cycle and moving to thecenter of the circle free from the whirlpool of fear, desire, andfate. I discuss this with citation in Nourishing Destiny.Warm regards, Lonny[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] _______________ Need to know now? Get instant answers with . http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/connect_your_way.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_mes\ senger_072008 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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