re: end of process oriented healing

[Guest guest]

Lonny,

 

I essentially agree with you. One day I woke up and realized all the complaints

and

justifications about the past were irrelevant. It just didn't make any

difference if my mother

was a narcissist and hysteric. I just couldn't care less. That information was

not useful for

living NOW, in this instant.

 

My question to myself is what process did I go through to come to this point. I

can't figure

out what I did to transform my thinking. The reason I would like to understand

what I did is

because I would like to help my patients make the same transformation.

 

I have been studying with Niki Bilton for the last 5 years and sometimes I think

I have a

glimpse of what sort of treatment to do and other times I am completely

bewildered. I have

read your 2 excellent books but I still seem to be missing something.

 

Zinnia

cmszinnia

[Guest guest]

That information was

not useful for

living NOW, in this instant.

 

 

Hi Zinnia,

 

Thank you for your response. I think there is a lot in Laozi's

comment that, " the sage is not sick because he is sick of being sick. "

 

What you stated is important because I think there is, there has to

be, a point at which " healing " is over and development becomes about

creating the future which is something much more significant than

merely overcoming the past.

 

As to what still might be " missing " I would suggest that it may be in

the domain of true discovery of the Self. After finishing writing

Nourishing Destiny I had a sort of empty feeling. I understood in my

own experience the Daoist cannon's view of losing and regaining

original nature. And though I could explain the enlightenment teaching

intellectually I had no experience of it. In other words, my

experience did not meet the full depth or height of the book I had

written.

 

But that's not true now.

 

Just a there is a point of transition from " healing " to being " healed "

that comes in one moment when we make a choice......

 

So too is their a moment when all questions are answered and one is no

longer a seeker......

 

 

Warm regards, Lonny

[Guest guest]

Who confirms your enlightenment Lonny?

 

On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 5:26 AM, sppdestiny <Revolution wrote:

 

> That information was

> not useful for

> living NOW, in this instant.

>

> Hi Zinnia,

>

> Thank you for your response. I think there is a lot in Laozi's

> comment that, " the sage is not sick because he is sick of being sick. "

>

> What you stated is important because I think there is, there has to

> be, a point at which " healing " is over and development becomes about

> creating the future which is something much more significant than

> merely overcoming the past.

>

> As to what still might be " missing " I would suggest that it may be in

> the domain of true discovery of the Self. After finishing writing

> Nourishing Destiny I had a sort of empty feeling. I understood in my

> own experience the Daoist cannon's view of losing and regaining

> original nature. And though I could explain the enlightenment teaching

> intellectually I had no experience of it. In other words, my

> experience did not meet the full depth or height of the book I had

> written.

>

> But that's not true now.

>

> Just a there is a point of transition from " healing " to being " healed "

> that comes in one moment when we make a choice......

>

> So too is their a moment when all questions are answered and one is no

> longer a seeker......

>

> Warm regards, Lonny

>

>

>

 

 

 

--

Robert Chu, PhD, L.Ac. QME

chusauli

 

See my webpages at: www.chusaulei.com

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

In addition to no desires......no fears = no suffering.

 

 

 

In a message dated 6/12/2008 4:37:55 P.M. Central Standard Time,

chusauli writes:

 

 

 

 

Beautiful!

 

That's why Maslow " god-fathered " Transpersonal Psychology, which is not

accepted by the APA!

 

I agree that Chinese medicine when applied with various Asian traditions can

help the process of getting through the illusion of " Self " . The Su Wen and

Ling Shu speak of balancing the self and living in harmony. This can only

come when there is no self in the way, living in the Now, wu wei.

 

I have studied ancient philosophies all my life and come to consisten

conclusions amongst Buddhist, Advaita, Hindu, Daoist, and Confucianist

themes:

 

No expectation, no disappointment.

 

No desire, no suffering.

 

No position, no opposition.

 

No self, no problems.

Things that happen are neither good nor bad; it is your mind that makes

them good or bad. Things happen.

 

It is as it is.

As practitioners, who helps patients realize this?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

**************Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best

2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg00050000000102)

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , " Robert Chu "

<chusauli wrote:

>

> Who confirms your enlightenment Lonny?

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

Lonny: I'm not enlightened. Nothing I've ever said should be construed

to imply that I am. I am not.

 

So, since we have that in black and white and I wholly affirm it,

you'll have to address specific points I made and either affirm or

deny them on their own merits.

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , " Robert Chu "

<chusauli wrote:

>

> Who confirms your enlightenment Lonny?

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

Lonny: I'm not enlightened. Nothing I've ever said should be construed

to imply that I am. I am not.

 

So, since we have that in black and white and I wholly affirm it,

you'll have to address specific points I made and either affirm or

deny them on their own merits.

 

The context of the discussion is the end of process oriented,

humanistic therapies that prolong immersion in victimized ignorance.

My assertion is simply that CM is a powerful tool that far transcends

the humanistic psychologies when it comes to the awakening and

development of consciousness. And that, world-centric people who live

in the upper %10 of the worlds population-no longer need this form of

therapy......that we've moved beyond it.

[Guest guest]

Beautiful!

 

That's why Maslow " god-fathered " Transpersonal Psychology, which is not

accepted by the APA!

 

I agree that Chinese medicine when applied with various Asian traditions can

help the process of getting through the illusion of " Self " . The Su Wen and

Ling Shu speak of balancing the self and living in harmony. This can only

come when there is no self in the way, living in the Now, wu wei.

 

I have studied ancient philosophies all my life and come to consisten

conclusions amongst Buddhist, Advaita, Hindu, Daoist, and Confucianist

themes:

 

No expectation, no disappointment.

 

No desire, no suffering.

 

No position, no opposition.

 

No self, no problems.

Things that happen are neither good nor bad; it is your mind that makes

them good or bad. Things happen.

 

It is as it is.

As practitioners, who helps patients realize this?

 

 

 

 

 

On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 12:40 PM, sppdestiny <Revolution

wrote:

 

> --- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>,

> " Robert Chu "

> <chusauli wrote:

> >

> > Who confirms your enlightenment Lonny?

> >

>

> Lonny: I'm not enlightened. Nothing I've ever said should be construed

> to imply that I am. I am not.

>

> So, since we have that in black and white and I wholly affirm it,

> you'll have to address specific points I made and either affirm or

> deny them on their own merits.

>

> The context of the discussion is the end of process oriented,

> humanistic therapies that prolong immersion in victimized ignorance.

> My assertion is simply that CM is a powerful tool that far transcends

> the humanistic psychologies when it comes to the awakening and

> development of consciousness. And that, world-centric people who live

> in the upper %10 of the worlds population-no longer need this form of

> therapy......that we've moved beyond it.

>

>

>

 

 

 

--

Robert Chu, PhD, L.Ac. QME

chusauli

 

See my webpages at: www.chusaulei.com

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Lonny,

 

Thank you for your response.

 

After I wrote my post- which hasn't appeared- I began to wonder if I could have

arrived at

that moment where the past was past and I felt free to go forward without 14

years of

Rogerian therapy and 6 of Core energetics and the encounter with Shambhala

Buddhism?

 

What I am saying is that a certain amount of processing- in my case an

interminable

amount of processing- may be necessary to move forward.

 

You are right, whatever happens happens quickly and without advance notice. I

just woke

up one morning and said I don't care about the past. I will live with the

present moment as

much as I can. I still tend to go forward but at least not backwards any more.

 

I try to help my patients focus on what is right in their lives rather than all

that they perceive

as wrong and I tell them that I see them as expressions of a positive universal

force- we

must be so careful not to say God or heaven. I really do feel that way about

people.

 

Zinnia

[Guest guest]

Things that happen are neither good nor bad; it is your mind that makes

them good or bad. Things happen.

 

 

 

lonny: This isn't my experience. It denies the capacity to make the

critical distinctions that make vertical development possible. It

denies the existence of natural hierarchy which essential to any

developmental context. And, it opens the door to Charles Manson's

assertion that " if it's all one, then I didn't do anything. "

 

I'd say that meaningful development implies higher and more integrated

value structures. The context you speak to above could be considered

to be " amoral " . It's my experience that the creative, evolutionary,

life impulse is unbearably beautiful and that what furthers it is

" good " and what hinders it is " bad " . I know such " black and white

distinctions aren't popular these days. I will point out that Liu Yi

Ming (@1812)-One of the great geniuses of the Daoist Cannon elaborated

such a context clearly in regards to the loss and return of original

nature (virtue, intuition) and enlightenment in terminology both

spiritual and medical in nature. He did this in relationship to

hexagrams 23 and 24 in the Yijing.

 

I am advocating a position that the capacity of a human being to make

a freely made choice is the highest evolved capacity in the universe.

This has everything to do with transcending " healing " and moving on to

creating the future. We are always faced with a hierarchy of choices

and we become what we do, not what we feel.

 

For example, The cultivation of wisdom depends on using will to

transcend fear. It is stepping into the unknown in the face of our

fear that allows us to know emptiness. Wisdom is the knowledge of

emptiness. TO make such a choice is " good " (everytime) and literally

furthers the development of the One since we aren't separate in any

way. In this case what " is " , enlightenment of consciousness and the

transformation of fear into wisdom, isn't just " is " it " is " because a

human choose to do it (not because god or the dao acted according to

some predetermined plan).

 

 

 

 

Robert: It is as it is

 

Lonny: Now,at this point in history, It is as we make it.

 

 

Robert: As practitioners, who helps patients realize this?

 

Lonny: We are transmitting our value system to our patients with every

point, herb, and word we choose whether we want to or not. So, It's

best that we know what we are doing and why. I'd say, in a culture

devoid of morality, as practitioners of the most highly evolved

medicine on the face of the earth......we out to be the one's taking

responsibility for helping patients wake up to whatever degree we

possibly can. This isn't 1972 and we can't assume much more time.

 

Regards, Lonny

[Guest guest]

<chusauli@.. .> wrote:

> Who confirms your enlightenment Lonny?

 

Lonny: I'm not enlightened. Nothing I've ever said should be construed

to imply that I am. I am not.

 

So, since we have that in black and white and I wholly affirm it,

you'll have to address specific points I made and either affirm or

deny them on their own merits.

---

 

Oh the gall of someone to get the answer I was looking for with so little

effort! Gah!

 

 

 

________

Sent from Mail.

A Smarter Email http://uk.docs./nowyoucan.html

 

 

[Guest guest]

Well, it depends if you keep the 5 precepts, watch your mind and cross over

to wisdom. You are not amoral then.

 

Lonny, I have no contention with you. Your discussion goes beyond the

standard " How do I take care of this disease with Acupuncture and herbs? "

The mind is the major disease.

 

I would say that if the Buddha were alive today, he still needs to engage

what I'll call the " Little mind " to borrow from Zen Master Dennis Genpo

Merzel's concept of " Big Mind, Big Heart " . You still need the " Little mind "

to discriminate addresses, driving directions, menu choices, but you can

also be directed via the " Big Mind " (Buddha Nature).

 

All disease as taught in Ayurveda comes from Vata, Pitta, Kapha - they are

linked to ignorance, hatred, greed. I believe it is the practitioner's

duty to " wake up " the individual. In the ancient Chinese medical system,

all the tools were there for realization. Nowadays, its become

compartmentalized. Its good to see someone working within the framework of

the past today.

 

On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 4:16 PM, sppdestiny <Revolution wrote:

 

> Things that happen are neither good nor bad; it is your mind that makes

> them good or bad. Things happen.

>

> lonny: This isn't my experience. It denies the capacity to make the

> critical distinctions that make vertical development possible. It

> denies the existence of natural hierarchy which essential to any

> developmental context. And, it opens the door to Charles Manson's

> assertion that " if it's all one, then I didn't do anything. "

>

> I'd say that meaningful development implies higher and more integrated

> value structures. The context you speak to above could be considered

> to be " amoral " . It's my experience that the creative, evolutionary,

> life impulse is unbearably beautiful and that what furthers it is

> " good " and what hinders it is " bad " . I know such " black and white

> distinctions aren't popular these days. I will point out that Liu Yi

> Ming (@1812)-One of the great geniuses of the Daoist Cannon elaborated

> such a context clearly in regards to the loss and return of original

> nature (virtue, intuition) and enlightenment in terminology both

> spiritual and medical in nature. He did this in relationship to

> hexagrams 23 and 24 in the Yijing.

>

> I am advocating a position that the capacity of a human being to make

> a freely made choice is the highest evolved capacity in the universe.

> This has everything to do with transcending " healing " and moving on to

> creating the future. We are always faced with a hierarchy of choices

> and we become what we do, not what we feel.

>

> For example, The cultivation of wisdom depends on using will to

> transcend fear. It is stepping into the unknown in the face of our

> fear that allows us to know emptiness. Wisdom is the knowledge of

> emptiness. TO make such a choice is " good " (everytime) and literally

> furthers the development of the One since we aren't separate in any

> way. In this case what " is " , enlightenment of consciousness and the

> transformation of fear into wisdom, isn't just " is " it " is " because a

> human choose to do it (not because god or the dao acted according to

> some predetermined plan).

>

> Robert: It is as it is

>

> Lonny: Now,at this point in history, It is as we make it.

>

> Robert: As practitioners, who helps patients realize this?

>

> Lonny: We are transmitting our value system to our patients with every

> point, herb, and word we choose whether we want to or not. So, It's

> best that we know what we are doing and why. I'd say, in a culture

> devoid of morality, as practitioners of the most highly evolved

> medicine on the face of the earth......we out to be the one's taking

> responsibility for helping patients wake up to whatever degree we

> possibly can. This isn't 1972 and we can't assume much more time.

>

> Regards, Lonny

>

>

>

 

 

 

--

Robert Chu, PhD, L.Ac. QME

chusauli

 

See my webpages at: www.chusaulei.com

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Beautiful!

 

I love the saying, " Pain is inevitable, but suffering is optional. "

 

On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 2:40 PM, <acudoc11 wrote:

 

> In addition to no desires......no fears = no suffering.

>

>

>

> In a message dated 6/12/2008 4:37:55 P.M. Central Standard Time,

> chusauli <chusauli%40gmail.com> writes:

>

> Beautiful!

>

> That's why Maslow " god-fathered " Transpersonal Psychology, which is not

> accepted by the APA!

>

> I agree that Chinese medicine when applied with various Asian traditions

> can

> help the process of getting through the illusion of " Self " . The Su Wen and

> Ling Shu speak of balancing the self and living in harmony. This can only

> come when there is no self in the way, living in the Now, wu wei.

>

> I have studied ancient philosophies all my life and come to consisten

> conclusions amongst Buddhist, Advaita, Hindu, Daoist, and Confucianist

> themes:

>

> No expectation, no disappointment.

>

> No desire, no suffering.

>

> No position, no opposition.

>

> No self, no problems.

> Things that happen are neither good nor bad; it is your mind that makes

> them good or bad. Things happen.

>

> It is as it is.

> As practitioners, who helps patients realize this?

>

> **************Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best

> 2008.

(http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg00050000000102<http://citysbest.aol.com/?nc\

id=aolacg00050000000102>)

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Robert,

 

We have different language but I think we are on the same page. We

definitely need to be oriented in time and space. That's a good thing.

And human beings are capable of acting in this world rooted in a

perspective that is prior to this organizing function of mind.

 

I would see all the different traditions and technical insights of CM

as good and playing relatively valuable roles. But none of it makes

any sense to me outside of the foundational perspective that you

pointed to. Warm regards, Lonny

[Guest guest]

Robert,

You stated in the passage below that in " ancient Chinese medical system ,

all the tools were there for realization " . This seems to turn Chinese

medicine to a spiritual path. Since I don't read Chinese yet, I listed to

Bob Flaws in his latest pod-cast " The issue of spiritually and Chinese

medicine " . He mentions that there is no place in the ancient classics text

were Chinese medicine is mentioned as a spiritual path. Of course there

were shamans and other non-naturalistic approaches for healing, but Flaws

states that if you are looking for a spiritual realization through Chinese

medicine, you just can't find any medical classic text that provides one.

Where do you find the " tools for realization " ?

Thanks

Guy

 

 

2008/6/20, Robert Chu <chusauli:

>

>

>

> All disease as taught in Ayurveda comes from Vata, Pitta, Kapha - they are

> linked to ignorance, hatred, greed. I believe it is the practitioner's

> duty to " wake up " the individual. In the ancient Chinese medical system,

> all the tools were there for realization. Nowadays, its become

> compartmentalized. Its good to see someone working within the framework of

> the past today.

>

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Since I don't read Chinese yet, I listed to

Bob Flaws in his latest pod-cast " The issue of spiritually and Chinese

medicine " . He mentions that there is no place in the ancient classics text

were Chinese medicine is mentioned as a spiritual path. Of course there

were shamans and other non-naturalistic approaches for healing, but Flaws

states that if you are looking for a spiritual realization through Chinese

medicine, you just can't find any medical classic text that provides one.

Where do you find the " tools for realization " ?

 

 

Lonny: The Ling Shu states that " above all treatment must be rooted in

spirit " . The medicine, the philosophical texts, the alchemical texts,

and the spiritual texts all use the same language and that language

was most likely understood in its multiple meanings by the authors.

There is no separation and Bob is making an artificial distinction if

he is suggesting otherwise. Medicine itself is not a path of

realization but it is not separate in any way from a spiritual path of

realization. It has only become a path in itself in the postmodern

West which is devoid of depth, morality, and a hierarchical context

for development. But medicine is, and must be, wholly in service of

and rooted in the values of spiritual development.

 

Beyond that is my daily experience that medicine can, indeed, bring

people to awakening. It just depends on the integrity of the

practitioner and the solidity of the ground he or she is standing on.

Beyond that I'd say that even were Bob right, which he is not, it

would then be up to us to create a medicine that had such integrity.

 

I can tell you for sure that medicine can help empower people to reach

a state where they are unintimidated by their own minds. Whether this

is equivalent to spiritual realization would be interesting to look

into. But it certainly does result in the natural transformation of a

dysfunctional relationship to one's emotions into the expression of

virtue in a way wholly consistent with the emergence of an enlightened

perspective.

 

 

 

 

I think my books go a long way to explicating this orientation and

tradition.

 

" The upper class of medicines.....govern the nourishment of destiny

and correspond to heaven...., If one wishes to prolong the years of

life without aging, one should " use these.

 

" The middle class of medicines govern the nourishment of one's nature

and correspond to man. ...If one wishes to prevent illness and to

supplement depletions and emaciations, one should " use these.

 

" The lower (class of) medicines....govern the treatment of illness and

correspond to earth. If one wishes to remove cold, heat and (other)

evil influences (from the body), to break accumulations, and to cure

illnesses, one should base (one's efforts) on (drugs listed in) the

lower (class of this) manual. "

 

Shen Nong Ben Cao