Questions from a prospective student

May 17, 2008

What year is she in? she doesn't have to do the residency if she doesn't

want to but once she has the degree no one can take it away and it will open

a world of doors. She can go a holistic route, get a homeopathic degree, a

TCM degree but the knowledge she has will serve her well.

Whatever she writes or does, more doors will open, it's just a fact.

She could also be exhausted. It's towards the end of the academic year, she

may be having a bad rotation or bit of classes, have run into a bad

professor etc. Be careful not to give up for the wrong reasons. So many

doctors are going the 'dual' route and have 'good philosophies'. She could

change things from the inside.

Where is she at school? Training is exhausting and emotionally trying at

times. I don't know anyone who hasn't broken down at one point or another, I

had one attending who thought the world revolved around him because he had a

photographic memory, but you never learned anything from him about how to

treat patients, he just recited things from textbooks. One month later I had

another attending and a good story to tell.

Just make sure she makes her decisions for all the right reasons because no

matter what you do there is 'crap' to put up with and things you won't agree

with! You have to learn as much as you can from everyone who teaches you,

and decide what to make your own when you develop your own 'style'.

Whatever you want to say about western medicine, there are many things that

would send me rushing to the hospital in a ny second! And many conditions

where the personality of the doctor would be the last thing I'd care about.

Everything has its place J

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of john

kokko

Friday, May 16, 2008 6:31 PM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Re: Questions from a prospective student

Emmanuel,

I have a cousin who is thinking about quitting med school,

because she is disenchanted by their philosophies and methodologies.

Would you be so kind to share your experience and why you stopped going on

that route as well?

Thanks,

K.

On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 2:59 PM, Emmanuel Segmen <mrsegmen

<mrsegmen%40comcast.net> >

wrote:

> Hi Dr. Nancy,

>

> Yes, I feel you could have been one of my medical school classmates back

in

> the 1980s. We initiated many cooperative study methods under the guidance

of

> our big sisters and brothers (next class ahead of us.) We had a " scribe

> service " of 187 of the 223 classmates. I volunteered as the head of the

> runners. We had people ( " recorders " ) at every lecture who audio recorded

it

> and handed it off to the " scribes " . The scribes would transcribe the

lecture

> into written form, print it out and hand it off to a " runner " . The runner

> would bring it to the production center for copying and pick up the

the

> student mailboxes to stuff printed lectures there.

>

> My particular class also had an additional group of engineers that I

joined

> up with. We changed every lecture into a series of questions (left column)

> followed by answers (right column). It was like translating the lecture

into

> a Jeopardy game. The lecture-in-jeopardy-question-format was posted in the

> library every day in two spiral-bound folders so people could come in and

> copy them. In the same folders, people were encouraged to add their

personal

> flow charts or other diagrams and figures to help fellow students " see the

> big picture " . I still to this day have many of those diagrams and figures.

> Imagine how many diagrams and figures could be created by 223 highly

> talented people per lecture!

>

> You're the greatest, Nancy. Hold your classmate's hand, and she'll be your

> friend for life as well as a caring practitioner. The other thing I

mention

> to my own students are the benefits of " active learning " . Teaching is the

> most active form of learning, so the one who is presenting is the one who

is

> learning the best. That's another reason why successful medical students

> tend to run in small cooperative groups. They each take turns looking the

> other classmates in the eyes and explaining the medical concepts and

> nomenclature while the classmates patiently listen and encourage.

>

> I hope your skills at providing tutoring and cooperative learning flourish

> as a common practice in your TCM school. I agree that competition is

> self-defeating madness. Mutual respect and regard is the basis of

community

> and makes it possible to acquire knowledge and skills.

>

> Respectfully and gratefully,

> Emmanuel Segmen

>

> P.S. I'm pleased to report that U.C. San Francisco medical students are

not

> so overwhelmed with scientism to not be curious about TCM. Many UC medical

> students every year are intrigued by the TCM teachings at San Francisco's

> American College of TCM, and they participate in the coop program between

> ACTCM and UCSF. Maybe your TCM school can create a cooperative program

with

> the local WM school. Those who would see you as studying " voodoo " are such

> sad characters. Maybe you could help them with their next bad cold or

> menstrual discomfort. So easy to address with acupuncture and a formula.

You

> don't win friends from Western science with double-blind studies. You win

> them by addressing their personal discomforts and/or assisting them in

> taking their next step in Life.

> ---------------

> RE: Questions from a prospective student

> Dr. Nancy Tice wrote:

>

> Yes we are treading parallel pathways and I do understand you, and even

> though I am pulled in many directions I too am doing better often than my

> younger classmates that have more time. I am now in one class with some

> first trimester students and I am taking great pleasure in helping them in

> the courses I've already taken. The people I am in classes with this

> trimester are so wonderful. Last trimester I had a competitive group which

> I

> did not understand at all. Who wants their colleagues to not be competent?

> Why wouldn't you want to help your classmates be the best they can be? So

> silly! One is very nervous because she is making a major career shift but

> for all the right reasons. I will hold her hand until she 'gets' it

because

> I think she will be a wonderful clinician one day.

>

> It always takes courage to follow your path. I know many of my friends

> think I am 'nuts' or learning 'voodo' but I know in my heart I am doing

the

> right thing.

>

> A friend's child just got accepted into a study at mount Sinai for peanut

> allergies. It's for a Chinese Herbal Formula invented by a Dr. Li. My

> friend

> is beyond thrilled.

>

> The world is changing slowly!!

>

May 17, 2008

Hi Dr. Nancy,

I work at an herb company in San Francisco and am a former long time resident of

that city. I've lived in the East Bay town of Albany near Berkeley since year

2000 and have taught college classes in the East Bay since 1989 ... mainly in

human anatomy and physiology, less so in nutrition, micro, immunology.

To answer an earlier question I have five graduate areas of study and did each

area with a number of graduate mentors: anatomy/physiology, immunology, cell

biology (cytoplasmic protein targeting), molecular biology (female X chromosome

morphology and global shut down), and Mendelian genetics. This also included a

certificate in genetic engineering. It all resulted in just masters degrees

from San Francisco State University, nothing more. I had enormous fun and

incurred no additional debt. A masters degree is the credential needed for

joining a community college faculty, and I love California community colleges.

While in medical school I was so annoyed by the various mis-matches that we

typically endure going from basic science to clinical science for an MD, that I

felt I needed to see clearly what my own parents saw so clearly as Western

scientists.

I worked for a year in 1988 as clinic director at the American College of TCM

under Aikow Wang and Howard Harrison in part to create a procedural manual for

the clinic to help it become a Calif. Comm. Clinic. I met many wonderful

physicians on that faculty such as Dr. Y. Wu, Dr. Kang, Dr. Nancy Chen and Dr.

Stanley Liang who guided me in that writing. I learned a lot about Calif.

entitlements for community clinics and other details that went into the manual.

Since that year, the manual has gone through so many changes, it no longer bears

my name ... nor the names of some who came after me. I've learned that

institutional memory is not important. Helping people and community is

important.

Where are you, Dr. Nancy, and where's your school? Do you know Ta Ya Lee who is

a physician and LAc at Johns Hopkins medical center hospital? She's a physician

in the alternative medical clinic offering both CM and WM. I hope we see more

people like you and Ta Ya Lee.

I have some other credentials that might amuse you. I was the first male member

of a Texas chapter of the American Medical Women's Association (1986). I joined

to learn how to study in medical school. I'm more proud to have been a member

of AMWA than to have been a member of the AMA. (^;

Respectfully,

Emmanuel Segmen

PS I'll look up Dr. Li, thank you. , I'll gladly respond to your

question a bit later. My congratuations and condolences to your cousin in

medical school. Intelligence, talent and good grades is not enough. Every

profession and institution involves a culture. More later.

---------------------

RE: Re: Questions from a prospective student

Dr. Nancy Tice wrote:

Most of the voodoo comments come from lay people actually. One of the

schools in the city rotates through a western hospital. More and more

hospitals are having 'integrative departments'. Still when they wrote about

Dr. Li in 2006 and her brilliant herbal formula for Asthma they had to quote

a doctor about how complementary medicine was 'unlikely to be harmful, but

just as unlikely to be helpful!!!!!' if you google Dr. Li's full name you'll

see the usa today article come up with the quote.

Teaching is a great way to learn. So is talking outloud which is why my dog

is learning a lot of TCM LOL.

We also had a note taking service in med school but we weren't as creative

with the questions!

What part of the world are you located in again?

May 17, 2008

I'm enjoying reading these postings. Thanks, Nancy, Emmanuel and

Kokko, for reminding us that we are all here as practitioners via

very different routes, but that we seem to share a sense of passion

and drive to continue to make ourselves the best healers we can be.

For myself, I had a full-blown epiphany one day while writing my

dissertation for my doctorate at Stanford. I was in my 5th year (in

an interdisciplinary program blending medical anthro, reproductive

technologies, science and technology studies, philosophy, feminist

theory, and the rhetoric of science!), had finished all my exams and

qualifications, but I was so unhappy as a burgeoning academic. While

writing, I heard one of the voices in my head say, " you don't have to

keep doing this. " Well, that didn't go over very well with the rest

of my brain. Of course I had to finish! I only had to write this

damn book and then they'd give me a PhD and besides, Stanford had

already paid out about $200K for my education, didn't I owe it to

them to finish? But that first voice was right. It wasn't making me

happy, it wasn't nourishing my soul. I didn't have to do it for

anybody else but me.

I didn't go back to school for my BA until I was in my late 30s and

even started graduate school pregnant with my 3rd child, so I

certainly didn't make it easy on myself (or my poor partner, bless

his heart!). It's still a tiny bit unclear whether I started

acupuncture school as an attempt to avoid finishing that dissertation

(the grout in my bathroom had been scrubbed too many times at that

point) or because I knew deep inside that this is what I needed to be

doing, but I have never been happier once I made the choice to become

an acupuncturist. Occasionally I wish I had PhinisheD (!) so that I

could add that PhD from Stanford after my name, but my patients never

seem to mind that I don't have one. And, at the rate my self-esteem

was being crushed by the forces of academia, there may not have been

any healing left in me to share. I don't know if I would encourage

somebody in a similar situation to just finish to get the degree or

not. I think it's hard to know when you're in the middle of

something so intense as medical school or any kind of graduate program.

As an older student who had been in school for 10 years FULL TIME

(straight through) right before I started TCM school, I can tell you

there were times when I felt more than slightly overwhelmed. But at

the same time, I knew exactly what it was going to take to get my

prize of being able to be a licensed practitioner. Several of my

patients have remarked that they can tell how much I love doing

this. Now that's an amazing compliment, when they can see the

passion come through during a treatment. I can only hope it lasts

for years to come.

I was lucky to be in a cohort at my TCM school (AIMC in Berkeley)

where we all shared learning and supported each other during the

tough times. I also took some classes out of sequence with other

cohorts and was disappointed to find some competition here and

there. I even see that competitive edge with seasoned acupuncturists

in my area. Granted, there are literally hundreds of us in a town of

less than 200,000, so LAcs may be feeling a little edgy about their

turf, but from my perspective, that's reason for us to invite more

people who haven't experienced the joys of being healed with our

medicine to join in on the fun!

So thanks to you all for sharing your knowledge, your questions, your

concerns and worries. I learn so much from this group and am so

grateful for your wisdom and humanity.

many blessings,

(feeling a little mushy here...)

Julia Carpenter, LAc

Berkeley, CA

May 18, 2008

Wow you are amazing. You have enough degrees for several doctorates J.

I have heard of these doctors. You are in a great community, so open minded.

Your work history is wonderful. I like the story about the awma

Trying to get my daughter to go to sleep!

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Emmanuel

Segmen

Friday, May 16, 2008 10:13 PM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Questions from a prospective student

Hi Dr. Nancy,

I work at an herb company in San Francisco and am a former long time

resident of that city. I've lived in the East Bay town of Albany near

Berkeley since year 2000 and have taught college classes in the East Bay

since 1989 ... mainly in human anatomy and physiology, less so in nutrition,

micro, immunology.

To answer an earlier question I have five graduate areas of study and did

each area with a number of graduate mentors: anatomy/physiology, immunology,

cell biology (cytoplasmic protein targeting), molecular biology (female X

chromosome morphology and global shut down), and Mendelian genetics. This

also included a certificate in genetic engineering. It all resulted in just

masters degrees from San Francisco State University, nothing more. I had

enormous fun and incurred no additional debt. A masters degree is the

credential needed for joining a community college faculty, and I love

California community colleges. While in medical school I was so annoyed by

the various mis-matches that we typically endure going from basic science to

clinical science for an MD, that I felt I needed to see clearly what my own

parents saw so clearly as Western scientists.

I worked for a year in 1988 as clinic director at the American College of

TCM under Aikow Wang and Howard Harrison in part to create a procedural

manual for the clinic to help it become a Calif. Comm. Clinic. I met many

wonderful physicians on that faculty such as Dr. Y. Wu, Dr. Kang, Dr. Nancy

Chen and Dr. Stanley Liang who guided me in that writing. I learned a lot

about Calif. entitlements for community clinics and other details that went

into the manual. Since that year, the manual has gone through so many

changes, it no longer bears my name ... nor the names of some who came after

me. I've learned that institutional memory is not important. Helping people

and community is important.

Where are you, Dr. Nancy, and where's your school? Do you know Ta Ya Lee who

is a physician and LAc at Johns Hopkins medical center hospital? She's a

physician in the alternative medical clinic offering both CM and WM. I hope

we see more people like you and Ta Ya Lee.

I have some other credentials that might amuse you. I was the first male

member of a Texas chapter of the American Medical Women's Association

(1986). I joined to learn how to study in medical school. I'm more proud to

have been a member of AMWA than to have been a member of the AMA. (^;

Respectfully,

Emmanuel Segmen

PS I'll look up Dr. Li, thank you. , I'll gladly respond to your

question a bit later. My congratuations and condolences to your cousin in

medical school. Intelligence, talent and good grades is not enough. Every

profession and institution involves a culture. More later.

---------------------

RE: Re: Questions from a prospective student

Dr. Nancy Tice wrote:

Most of the voodoo comments come from lay people actually. One of the

schools in the city rotates through a western hospital. More and more

hospitals are having 'integrative departments'. Still when they wrote about

Dr. Li in 2006 and her brilliant herbal formula for Asthma they had to quote

a doctor about how complementary medicine was 'unlikely to be harmful, but

just as unlikely to be helpful!!!!!' if you google Dr. Li's full name you'll

see the usa today article come up with the quote.

Teaching is a great way to learn. So is talking outloud which is why my dog

is learning a lot of TCM LOL.

We also had a note taking service in med school but we weren't as creative

with the questions!

What part of the world are you located in again?

May 18, 2008

Hi Julie Difu,

You are so correct and so amazingly articulate ... and courageous for your

personal presentation. Each human is unto herself a complete system. Still in

need of nature, family and community and in need of serving Life herself.

However, you so successfully gave voice to my response to and his

cousin in medical school. Thank you. I'm you're neighbor and owe you a cup of

tea. Or at least a deep bow of respect and gratitude.

We are not islands. Our completeness in ourselves has to do with the manner of

our evolution as a highly functional, flexible and adaptable species. We are

complete as the channels of our own internal dialogues, zheng qi, and our

essential relationship with Life, da qi. The sooner we learn of our

completeness as living entities, the sooner we can honor the unique path that we

tread on behalf of Life and our own " souler " adventures.

Actually society and culture need us, not the reverse. The trappings and

credentials of our society and culture are " artifacts " of being human and are

not necessities. It is far healthier to honor the balance, synchronicity and

uninhibited flow of qi along your own homeostatic and living pathway of

development. There are many brass rings out there. The act of reaching for

these external artifacts could take us out the essential balance, synchronicity

and flow required to fulfill our own developmental pathway.

It already takes enormous courage to be human and authentically ourselves. We

carry out our essential duties by keeping our eye on the path. It was easy for

me to wildcraft the little brass rings (masters degrees) along my pathway. It

was neither essential nor advisable for me to leave the pathway for any reason

or artifact of recognition (such as an MD). Family and community and Living

Nature count. Artifacts and recognition do not count.

I think both you and know a long time resident and fine artist of San

Francisco named Shereen Kanehisa who graduated from ACTCM and currently

practices CM in Hawaii with her husband Joe Bright. I used to listen to Shereen

for verbal pearls that she channeled through her conversations with me. One of

them was her expression " stealth dharma " . By far the best love and service we

can bring to the world is one which fits so quietly and harmoniously into Life

and nourishes Her so naturally that we go almost entirely unnoticed. Hence,

" stealth dharma " . The " hero with a thousand faces " performs magnificently

without the need of recognition.

BTW, isn't this the difference in Western science between " physiological effect "

and " pharmacological effect " ? For my money this is precisely why Chinese

medicine is the larger and more powerful tool in the medical doctor's toolbox.

It acts physiologically to improve balance and flow above and beyond any of its

pharmacological effects.

Respectfully and Gratefully,

Emmanuel Segmen

P.S. , if you have more specific questions regarding your cousin,

please let me know. I care about people in her situation. I also care that you

reached across to me in genuine conversation despite any " turf " issues between

people that we know. Nice stealth dharma, Brother. I bow to you.

P.P.S. I'm glad I got my shattered left elbow surgically repaired by Dr. Lamont

Cardon in Berkeley (July 2005). We did it in a cheap little Telegraph Street

surgery facility for just a few thousand dollars total. Not for $40,000 at Alta

Bates Hospital. MDs like Dr. Cardon exist. If I did not tell the story, his work

would have been entirely " stealth dharma " . I have complete range of motion and

strength in my left elbow. I used a Dr. Kang herbal formula as well to increase

bone matrix. It blew Dr. Cardon's mind how well a 57 year old distance runner

healed from a crushing fracture. WM and CM together can do a lot.

------------------------

Julia Carpenter wrote:

" I'm enjoying reading these postings. Thanks, Nancy, Emmanuel and