Multiple Sclerosis and TCM Pattern Diagnosis

[Guest guest]

I am very interested in M.S. and Chinese medicine approaches. Below is

a chain of thought I've had for awhile and I'm curious what my fellow

TCM practitioners think.

 

Background:

In Western Medicine we've come to know that M.S. results in a disease

mechanism of demyelination of the nerves causing plaques, or sclerosis.

This in turn degrades nerve impulse transmission. Cumulative sclerotic

plaques lead to the increase of symptom and disease progression.

Disease cause is unknown.

 

Most of the TCM information that I am able to find equates the large

bulk of M.S. symptoms with Wei Zheng, wilting condition; Ma Mu,

numbness; Fa Li, lack of strength; Zhen Chan, spasticity; Mu Hu, blurred

vision; and Shi Yi Wei Er, double vision. Of course this is not a

complete list, but it covers a broad scope of common symptoms.

 

In the reference materials I have read, the TCM conditions are commonly

attributed to broad pattern classifications of Qi and Yin Deficiency,

Internally Generated Wind, Phlegm Damp, and/or Damp Heat.

 

Now research has also shown that inflammation occurs within the nervous

system with M.S. Both T-cells and Macrophages have been found to have

crossed the brain-blood barriers to interact in myelin

destruction/consumption.

 

Conventionally, Traditional attributes the Liver as

governing the sinews and nerves, as well as, the Blood.

 

Hypothesis:

 

I'm going to posit the following. Nerves, and nerve impulses are Yang

in nature, as is the overall inflammation process. Pretty basic idea.

Meanwhile, Myelin as a fatty protein that functions to contain, and

insulate the nerves is Yin in nature. Another pretty basic idea.

 

If we are looking strictly at the disease mechanism (the destruction and

consumption of myelin through inflammatory processes) in TCM

pathogenesis we can conclude Liver Yin is depleted because of the nature

of myelin and the function of the Liver over the nerves. Perhaps this

occurs through either a root Yin Deficiency failing to contain Yang, or

a root Yang Excess condition overcoming Yin. I really think that would

be situationally dependent.

 

Now, as the Yin-Myelin is broken down by the Yang activity of

inflammation, some of the Yin and Yang combine to transform into

pathogenic Damp-Heat, or even greater Phlegm-Damp-Heat.

 

Of course from this underlying base pattern we can then combine symptom

based patterns of Wei Zheng, Ma Mu, etc., etc.

 

Let me know what you think.

 

Jamey Johnston, C.Ac

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

MS is definetly a result of vaccine induced disease.In TCVM, we look at

vaccination as the cause of Blood defeciency.Vaccines contain both mercury and

aluminum salts and is very,very corrosive in nature.Neuroinflamation we know

occurs in vaccinates and then can express phenotypically as the mutation

from the vaccine. Vitamin E has helped this situation in veterinary

patients.Sincerely,Patricia Jordan DVM,CVA,CTCVM & Herbology

 

 

:

snowmans_shadow: Thu, 1 May 2008 20:21:28 +0000TCM -

Multiple Sclerosis and TCM Pattern Diagnosis

 

 

 

 

I am very interested in M.S. and Chinese medicine approaches. Below isa chain of

thought I've had for awhile and I'm curious what my fellowTCM practitioners

think.Background:In Western Medicine we've come to know that M.S. results in a

diseasemechanism of demyelination of the nerves causing plaques, or sclerosis.

This in turn degrades nerve impulse transmission. Cumulative scleroticplaques

lead to the increase of symptom and disease progression. Disease cause is

unknown.Most of the TCM information that I am able to find equates the largebulk

of M.S. symptoms with Wei Zheng, wilting condition; Ma Mu,numbness; Fa Li, lack

of strength; Zhen Chan, spasticity; Mu Hu, blurredvision; and Shi Yi Wei Er,

double vision. Of course this is not acomplete list, but it covers a broad scope

of common symptoms.In the reference materials I have read, the TCM conditions

are commonlyattributed to broad pattern classifications of Qi and Yin

Deficiency,Internally Generated Wind, Phlegm Damp, and/or Damp Heat.Now research

has also shown that inflammation occurs within the nervoussystem with M.S. Both

T-cells and Macrophages have been found to havecrossed the brain-blood barriers

to interact in myelindestruction/consumption.Conventionally, Traditional Chinese

Medicine attributes the Liver asgoverning the sinews and nerves, as well as, the

Blood.Hypothesis:I'm going to posit the following. Nerves, and nerve impulses

are Yangin nature, as is the overall inflammation process. Pretty basic idea.

Meanwhile, Myelin as a fatty protein that functions to contain, andinsulate the

nerves is Yin in nature. Another pretty basic idea.If we are looking strictly at

the disease mechanism (the destruction andconsumption of myelin through

inflammatory processes) in TCMpathogenesis we can conclude Liver Yin is depleted

because of the natureof myelin and the function of the Liver over the nerves.

Perhaps thisoccurs through either a root Yin Deficiency failing to contain Yang,

ora root Yang Excess condition overcoming Yin. I really think that wouldbe

situationally dependent.Now, as the Yin-Myelin is broken down by the Yang

activity ofinflammation, some of the Yin and Yang combine to transform

intopathogenic Damp-Heat, or even greater Phlegm-Damp-Heat.Of course from this

underlying base pattern we can then combine symptombased patterns of Wei Zheng,

Ma Mu, etc., etc.Let me know what you think.Jamey Johnston, C.Ac[Non-text

portions of this message have been removed]

 

 

 

 

 

 

_______________

Spell a grand slam in this game where word skill meets World Series. Get in the

game.

http://club.live.com/word_slugger.aspx?icid=word_slugger_wlhm_admod_april08

 

 

[Guest guest]

Greetings Patricia,

 

Could you point me to the reference material you are using for vaccine

induced causation of M.S.? I've read a little on the vaccine theory

and heavy metal toxicity, but I hadn't read anything conclusive.

 

Thank you.

 

Chinese Medicine , Patricia Jordan

<coastalcatclinic wrote:

>

>

> MS is definetly a result of vaccine induced disease.In TCVM, we look

at vaccination as the cause of Blood defeciency.Vaccines contain both

mercury and aluminum salts and is very,very corrosive in

nature.Neuroinflamation we know occurs in vaccinates and then can

express phenotypically as the mutation

> from the vaccine. Vitamin E has helped this situation in veterinary

patients.Sincerely,Patricia Jordan DVM,CVA,CTCVM & Herbology

>

>

> : snowmans_shadow: Thu, 1

May 2008 20:21:28 +0000Multiple Sclerosis and TCM

Pattern Diagnosis

>

>

>

>

> I am very interested in M.S. and Chinese medicine approaches. Below

isa chain of thought I've had for awhile and I'm curious what my

fellowTCM practitioners think.Background:In Western Medicine we've

come to know that M.S. results in a diseasemechanism of demyelination

of the nerves causing plaques, or sclerosis. This in turn degrades

nerve impulse transmission. Cumulative scleroticplaques lead to the

increase of symptom and disease progression. Disease cause is

unknown.Most of the TCM information that I am able to find equates the

largebulk of M.S. symptoms with Wei Zheng, wilting condition; Ma

Mu,numbness; Fa Li, lack of strength; Zhen Chan, spasticity; Mu Hu,

blurredvision; and Shi Yi Wei Er, double vision. Of course this is not

acomplete list, but it covers a broad scope of common symptoms.In the

reference materials I have read, the TCM conditions are

commonlyattributed to broad pattern classifications of Qi and Yin

Deficiency,Internally Generated Wind, Phlegm Damp, and/or Damp

Heat.Now research has also shown that inflammation occurs within the

nervoussystem with M.S. Both T-cells and Macrophages have been found

to havecrossed the brain-blood barriers to interact in

myelindestruction/consumption.Conventionally, Traditional Chinese

Medicine attributes the Liver asgoverning the sinews and nerves, as

well as, the Blood.Hypothesis:I'm going to posit the following.

Nerves, and nerve impulses are Yangin nature, as is the overall

inflammation process. Pretty basic idea. Meanwhile, Myelin as a fatty

protein that functions to contain, andinsulate the nerves is Yin in

nature. Another pretty basic idea.If we are looking strictly at the

disease mechanism (the destruction andconsumption of myelin through

inflammatory processes) in TCMpathogenesis we can conclude Liver Yin

is depleted because of the natureof myelin and the function of the

Liver over the nerves. Perhaps thisoccurs through either a root Yin

Deficiency failing to contain Yang, ora root Yang Excess condition

overcoming Yin. I really think that wouldbe situationally

dependent.Now, as the Yin-Myelin is broken down by the Yang activity

ofinflammation, some of the Yin and Yang combine to transform

intopathogenic Damp-Heat, or even greater Phlegm-Damp-Heat.Of course

from this underlying base pattern we can then combine symptombased

patterns of Wei Zheng, Ma Mu, etc., etc.Let me know what you

think.Jamey Johnston, C.Ac[Non-text portions of this message have been

removed]

_______________

> Spell a grand slam in this game where word skill meets World Series.

Get in the game.

>

http://club.live.com/word_slugger.aspx?icid=word_slugger_wlhm_admod_april08

>

>

[Guest guest]

Patricia,

 

Could you also describe the TCM mechanism at work behind the

vaccinations leading to Blood Deficiency? I'm not sure I understand

the " how " there.

 

Thanks again,

 

Jamey

 

Chinese Medicine , Patricia Jordan

<coastalcatclinic wrote:

>

>

> MS is definetly a result of vaccine induced disease.In TCVM, we look

at vaccination as the cause of Blood defeciency.Vaccines contain both

mercury and aluminum salts and is very,very corrosive in

nature.Neuroinflamation we know occurs in vaccinates and then can

express phenotypically as the mutation

> from the vaccine. Vitamin E has helped this situation in veterinary

patients.Sincerely,Patricia Jordan DVM,CVA,CTCVM & Herbology

>

>

> : snowmans_shadow: Thu, 1

May 2008 20:21:28 +0000Multiple Sclerosis and TCM

Pattern Diagnosis

>

>

>

>

> I am very interested in M.S. and Chinese medicine approaches. Below

isa chain of thought I've had for awhile and I'm curious what my

fellowTCM practitioners think.Background:In Western Medicine we've

come to know that M.S. results in a diseasemechanism of demyelination

of the nerves causing plaques, or sclerosis. This in turn degrades

nerve impulse transmission. Cumulative scleroticplaques lead to the

increase of symptom and disease progression. Disease cause is

unknown.Most of the TCM information that I am able to find equates the

largebulk of M.S. symptoms with Wei Zheng, wilting condition; Ma

Mu,numbness; Fa Li, lack of strength; Zhen Chan, spasticity; Mu Hu,

blurredvision; and Shi Yi Wei Er, double vision. Of course this is not

acomplete list, but it covers a broad scope of common symptoms.In the

reference materials I have read, the TCM conditions are

commonlyattributed to broad pattern classifications of Qi and Yin

Deficiency,Internally Generated Wind, Phlegm Damp, and/or Damp

Heat.Now research has also shown that inflammation occurs within the

nervoussystem with M.S. Both T-cells and Macrophages have been found

to havecrossed the brain-blood barriers to interact in

myelindestruction/consumption.Conventionally, Traditional Chinese

Medicine attributes the Liver asgoverning the sinews and nerves, as

well as, the Blood.Hypothesis:I'm going to posit the following.

Nerves, and nerve impulses are Yangin nature, as is the overall

inflammation process. Pretty basic idea. Meanwhile, Myelin as a fatty

protein that functions to contain, andinsulate the nerves is Yin in

nature. Another pretty basic idea.If we are looking strictly at the

disease mechanism (the destruction andconsumption of myelin through

inflammatory processes) in TCMpathogenesis we can conclude Liver Yin

is depleted because of the natureof myelin and the function of the

Liver over the nerves. Perhaps thisoccurs through either a root Yin

Deficiency failing to contain Yang, ora root Yang Excess condition

overcoming Yin. I really think that wouldbe situationally

dependent.Now, as the Yin-Myelin is broken down by the Yang activity

ofinflammation, some of the Yin and Yang combine to transform

intopathogenic Damp-Heat, or even greater Phlegm-Damp-Heat.Of course

from this underlying base pattern we can then combine symptombased

patterns of Wei Zheng, Ma Mu, etc., etc.Let me know what you

think.Jamey Johnston, C.Ac[Non-text portions of this message have been

removed]

_______________

> Spell a grand slam in this game where word skill meets World Series.

Get in the game.

>

http://club.live.com/word_slugger.aspx?icid=word_slugger_wlhm_admod_april08

>

>

[Guest guest]

Did not MS exist before the advent of vaccines? Blanket statements like this are

dangerous. While vaccines MAY play a part in MS, I think that one needs to be

careful. Just for the record, my three children are not vaccinated.

 

Douglas Knapp

Doctoral Fellow, L.Ac.

Full Moon Acupuncture

1600 York Avenue

New York, NY 10028

212-734-1459

 

 

Patricia Jordan <coastalcatclinic

Chinese Traditional Medicine

Thursday, May 1, 2008 10:00:42 PM

RE: Multiple Sclerosis and TCM Pattern Diagnosis

 

 

MS is definetly a result of vaccine induced disease.In TCVM, we look at

vaccination as the cause of Blood defeciency.Vaccines contain both mercury and

aluminum salts and is very,very corrosive in nature.Neuroinflama tion we know

occurs in vaccinates and then can express phenotypically as the mutation

from the vaccine. Vitamin E has helped this situation in veterinary

patients.Sincerely, Patricia Jordan DVM,CVA,CTCVM & Herbology

 

snowmans_shadow@

Thu, 1 May 2008 20:21:28 +0000Multiple Sclerosis

and TCM Pattern Diagnosis

 

I am very interested in M.S. and Chinese medicine approaches. Below isa chain of

thought I've had for awhile and I'm curious what my fellowTCM practitioners

think.Background: In Western Medicine we've come to know that M.S. results in a

diseasemechanism of demyelination of the nerves causing plaques, or sclerosis.

This in turn degrades nerve impulse transmission. Cumulative scleroticplaques

lead to the increase of symptom and disease progression. Disease cause is

unknown.Most of the TCM information that I am able to find equates the largebulk

of M.S. symptoms with Wei Zheng, wilting condition; Ma Mu,numbness; Fa Li, lack

of strength; Zhen Chan, spasticity; Mu Hu, blurredvision; and Shi Yi Wei Er,

double vision. Of course this is not acomplete list, but it covers a broad scope

of common symptoms.In the reference materials I have read, the TCM conditions

are commonlyattributed to broad pattern classifications of Qi and Yin

Deficiency,Internal ly Generated

Wind, Phlegm Damp, and/or Damp Heat.Now research has also shown that

inflammation occurs within the nervoussystem with M.S. Both T-cells and

Macrophages have been found to havecrossed the brain-blood barriers to interact

in myelindestruction/ consumption. Conventionally, Traditional

attributes the Liver asgoverning the sinews and nerves, as well as, the

Blood.Hypothesis: I'm going to posit the following. Nerves, and nerve impulses

are Yangin nature, as is the overall inflammation process. Pretty basic idea.

Meanwhile, Myelin as a fatty protein that functions to contain, andinsulate the

nerves is Yin in nature. Another pretty basic idea.If we are looking strictly at

the disease mechanism (the destruction andconsumption of myelin through

inflammatory processes) in TCMpathogenesis we can conclude Liver Yin is depleted

because of the natureof myelin and the function of the Liver over the nerves.

Perhaps thisoccurs through either a root Yin

Deficiency failing to contain Yang, ora root Yang Excess condition overcoming

Yin. I really think that wouldbe situationally dependent.Now, as the Yin-Myelin

is broken down by the Yang activity ofinflammation, some of the Yin and Yang

combine to transform intopathogenic Damp-Heat, or even greater Phlegm-Damp-

Heat.Of course from this underlying base pattern we can then combine

symptombased patterns of Wei Zheng, Ma Mu, etc., etc.Let me know what you

think.Jamey Johnston, C.Ac

[Guest guest]

I am sure that the vaccine contents are not the only thing that cause

neuroinflamation, however, the massive use of vaccines and the highly

inflamatory contents of the untested vaccines that are in massive distribution

have quite alot to do with the initiation of the bulk of Internal Medicine

Disease and VIDS vaccine

induced disease.IF you want to see what is going to happen to our health, just

look at what the mosquitos in white coats have done to the animal population

with the year after year after year after year administration of " robust "

adjuvanted vaccines to our companion animals.We are learning alot about the

mammalian immune system. Everyone's genetics are different, however they all

work the same way to mutation,inflmaation etc.

Environment, stress,nutrition,toxins all help determine the intrical individual

changes that occur but the most violent assault to our immune system is the

innoculation without a doubt and that is the way to stress the jing

essence.Sincerely,Patricia Jordan DVM,CVA,CTCVM & Herbology

 

 

:

knappneedleman: Thu, 1 May 2008 21:23:39 -0700Re: TCM -

Multiple Sclerosis and TCM Pattern Diagnosis

 

 

 

 

Did not MS exist before the advent of vaccines? Blanket statements like this are

dangerous. While vaccines MAY play a part in MS, I think that one needs to be

careful. Just for the record, my three children are not vaccinated.Douglas

KnappDoctoral Fellow, L.Ac.Full Moon Acupuncture1600 York AvenueNew York, NY

10028212-734-1459Patricia Jordan

<coastalcatclinicTo:

Chinese Traditional Medicine: Thursday, May 1, 2008 10:00:42

PMRE: Multiple Sclerosis and TCM Pattern DiagnosisMS is definetly

a result of vaccine induced disease.In TCVM, we look at vaccination as the cause

of Blood defeciency.Vaccines contain both mercury and aluminum salts and is

very,very corrosive in nature.Neuroinflama tion we know occurs in vaccinates and

then can express phenotypically as the mutationfrom the vaccine. Vitamin E has

helped this situation in veterinary patients.Sincerely, Patricia Jordan

DVM,CVA,CTCVM & HerbologyTraditional_ Chinese_Medicine @.

comsnowmans_shadow@ Thu, 1 May 2008 20:21:28 +0000Subject:

Multiple Sclerosis and TCM Pattern DiagnosisI am very interested in M.S.

and Chinese medicine approaches. Below isa chain of thought I've had for awhile

and I'm curious what my fellowTCM practitioners think.Background: In Western

Medicine we've come to know that M.S. results in a diseasemechanism of

demyelination of the nerves causing plaques, or sclerosis. This in turn degrades

nerve impulse transmission. Cumulative scleroticplaques lead to the increase of

symptom and disease progression. Disease cause is unknown.Most of the TCM

information that I am able to find equates the largebulk of M.S. symptoms with

Wei Zheng, wilting condition; Ma Mu,numbness; Fa Li, lack of strength; Zhen

Chan, spasticity; Mu Hu, blurredvision; and Shi Yi Wei Er, double vision. Of

course this is not acomplete list, but it covers a broad scope of common

symptoms.In the reference materials I have read, the TCM conditions are

commonlyattributed to broad pattern classifications of Qi and Yin

Deficiency,Internal ly GeneratedWind, Phlegm Damp, and/or Damp Heat.Now research

has also shown that inflammation occurs within the nervoussystem with M.S. Both

T-cells and Macrophages have been found to havecrossed the brain-blood barriers

to interact in myelindestruction/ consumption. Conventionally, Traditional

attributes the Liver asgoverning the sinews and nerves, as well

as, the Blood.Hypothesis: I'm going to posit the following. Nerves, and nerve

impulses are Yangin nature, as is the overall inflammation process. Pretty basic

idea. Meanwhile, Myelin as a fatty protein that functions to contain,

andinsulate the nerves is Yin in nature. Another pretty basic idea.If we are

looking strictly at the disease mechanism (the destruction andconsumption of

myelin through inflammatory processes) in TCMpathogenesis we can conclude Liver

Yin is depleted because of the natureof myelin and the function of the Liver

over the nerves. Perhaps thisoccurs through either a root YinDeficiency failing

to contain Yang, ora root Yang Excess condition overcoming Yin. I really think

that wouldbe situationally dependent.Now, as the Yin-Myelin is broken down by

the Yang activity ofinflammation, some of the Yin and Yang combine to transform

intopathogenic Damp-Heat, or even greater Phlegm-Damp- Heat.Of course from this

underlying base pattern we can then combine symptombased patterns of Wei Zheng,

Ma Mu, etc., etc.Let me know what you think.Jamey Johnston, C.Ac[Non-text

portions of this message have been removed] ____________ _________ _________

_________ _________ _________ _Spell a grand slam in this game where word skill

meets World Series. Get in the game.http://club. live.com/ word_slugger.

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[Guest guest]

Patricia,

 

Can you site your sources that show M.S. is definitively vaccine

induced? The resources I have read are still inconclusive and I would

love to read any new information.

 

Also, Blood Deficiency is one of the patterns we are likely to see

with M.S. symptomology. From a TCM perspective, how are we concluding

that vaccines are causing Blood Deficiency? I would like to hear your

thoughts on the TCM mechanism at work in this incident.

 

Thank you,

Jamey Johnston, C.Ac

 

(P.S. - apologies if this gets double posted)

 

Chinese Medicine , Patricia Jordan

<coastalcatclinic wrote:

>

>

> MS is definetly a result of vaccine induced disease.In TCVM, we look

at vaccination as the cause of Blood defeciency.Vaccines contain both

mercury and aluminum salts and is very,very corrosive in

nature.Neuroinflamation we know occurs in vaccinates and then can

express phenotypically as the mutation

> from the vaccine. Vitamin E has helped this situation in veterinary

patients.Sincerely,Patricia Jordan DVM,CVA,CTCVM & Herbology

>

>

> : snowmans_shadow: Thu, 1

May 2008 20:21:28 +0000Multiple Sclerosis and TCM

Pattern Diagnosis

>

>

>

>

> I am very interested in M.S. and Chinese medicine approaches. Below

isa chain of thought I've had for awhile and I'm curious what my

fellowTCM practitioners think.Background:In Western Medicine we've

come to know that M.S. results in a diseasemechanism of demyelination

of the nerves causing plaques, or sclerosis. This in turn degrades

nerve impulse transmission. Cumulative scleroticplaques lead to the

increase of symptom and disease progression. Disease cause is

unknown.Most of the TCM information that I am able to find equates the

largebulk of M.S. symptoms with Wei Zheng, wilting condition; Ma

Mu,numbness; Fa Li, lack of strength; Zhen Chan, spasticity; Mu Hu,

blurredvision; and Shi Yi Wei Er, double vision. Of course this is not

acomplete list, but it covers a broad scope of common symptoms.In the

reference materials I have read, the TCM conditions are

commonlyattributed to broad pattern classifications of Qi and Yin

Deficiency,Internally Generated Wind, Phlegm Damp, and/or Damp

Heat.Now research has also shown that inflammation occurs within the

nervoussystem with M.S. Both T-cells and Macrophages have been found

to havecrossed the brain-blood barriers to interact in

myelindestruction/consumption.Conventionally, Traditional Chinese

Medicine attributes the Liver asgoverning the sinews and nerves, as

well as, the Blood.Hypothesis:I'm going to posit the following.

Nerves, and nerve impulses are Yangin nature, as is the overall

inflammation process. Pretty basic idea. Meanwhile, Myelin as a fatty

protein that functions to contain, andinsulate the nerves is Yin in

nature. Another pretty basic idea.If we are looking strictly at the

disease mechanism (the destruction andconsumption of myelin through

inflammatory processes) in TCMpathogenesis we can conclude Liver Yin

is depleted because of the natureof myelin and the function of the

Liver over the nerves. Perhaps thisoccurs through either a root Yin

Deficiency failing to contain Yang, ora root Yang Excess condition

overcoming Yin. I really think that wouldbe situationally

dependent.Now, as the Yin-Myelin is broken down by the Yang activity

ofinflammation, some of the Yin and Yang combine to transform

intopathogenic Damp-Heat, or even greater Phlegm-Damp-Heat.Of course

from this underlying base pattern we can then combine symptombased

patterns of Wei Zheng, Ma Mu, etc., etc.Let me know what you

think.Jamey Johnston, C.Ac[Non-text portions of this message have been

removed]

_______________

> Spell a grand slam in this game where word skill meets World Series.

Get in the game.

>

http://club.live.com/word_slugger.aspx?icid=word_slugger_wlhm_admod_april08

>

>

[Guest guest]

Jamey, Sounds like a good analysis and I think you're on to something,

but it doesn't account for why MS is more prevalent in Northern

regions, especially the Pacific Northwest.

Could Wind, Damp, and Cold play a role?

Perhaps a latent pathogen that nestles up against the nerves is under

attack by the immune system and the myelin damage is more of collateral

damage of the body's assault on the pathogen.

Perhaps qi and yang deficiency leads to a weak immune response, so the

pathogen isn't expelled, allowing the pathogen to do its work of

damaging the myelin.

Does lack of sunlight in the Northern Environs lead to a Vitamin D

deficiency? How does Vit D deficiency play a role and what is the TCM

connection? Vitamin D production is stimulated by exposure to the sun

and transformed in the Kidneys, so is it a form of Kidney Yang Qi?

Can Kidney Yang Vacuity lead to immune dysfunction?

And so on...

There's definitely more to it.

 

Zachary Nelms L.Ac.

[Guest guest]

I am curious where you are coming up with your translations of these

terms so I can look up the definitions in more detail. Also, your use

of capitalizations for the Chinese medical terms. . .

 

 

 

On May 1, 2008, at 1:21 PM, snowmans_shadow wrote:

 

>

> Most of the TCM information that I am able to find equates the large

> bulk of M.S. symptoms with Wei Zheng, wilting condition; Ma Mu,

> numbness; Fa Li, lack of strength; Zhen Chan, spasticity; Mu Hu,

> blurred

> vision; and Shi Yi Wei Er, double vision. Of course this is not a

> complete list, but it covers a broad scope of common symptoms.

>

> In the reference materials I have read, the TCM conditions are

> commonly

> attributed to broad pattern classifications of Qi and Yin Deficiency,

> Internally Generated Wind, Phlegm Damp, and/or Damp Heat.

 

 

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Zachary,

 

I really like that feedback and I absolutely agree that there is more

going in the disease pathogenesis. I would like to try expanding on

my original statement to incorporate your ideas with the following:

 

Regional Climate/Pathogen:

 

The disease mechanism, what I believe is the involvement of the Liver,

and the formation of Damp during demyelination could provide some

explanation for higher rates in colder, damper climates.

 

If the Yang is excess, and/or the Yin is vacuous, and it leads to a

pathogenesis that impacts the Liver, then it follows that Liver

function could become impaired. As the Liver function becomes

impaired it fails to govern and store the Blood. This leads to the

Blood becomes vacuous and we see Internally Generated Wind.

 

Additionally, I posited the Yang-inflammation could combine with the

Yin-myelin to generate Internal Damp-Heat.

 

These internally generated pathogens make the body more susceptible to

External Pathogens, such as, Wind-Damp due to the nature of TCM

pathogens combining, or like-reinforcing-like.

 

Does it also make some sense that in a Colder Climates the body's

natural response would be to generate Heat in counteraction? This

macro-Climate and micro-body balance becomes pathogenic because the

normal internally generated Heat combines with pathogenic Heat in the

expression of M.S.

 

 

 

Vitamin D:

 

Addressing the biochemical potential for Vitamin D deficiency we have

the following. Vitamin D is synthesized in its first inert form in

the skin through the photochemical interaction of UV-light and

7-dehydrocholesterol. This form of D is called Cholecalciferol. As I

understand this is the form of D we most often consume from food

sources (fortified dairy products, and oily fish).

 

Cholecalciferal circulates through the physiological Liver where it is

metabolized to produce Calcidiol. This is the main form of

circulating vitamin D and the second inert form. It is this form of

vitamin D that is measured to assess an individual's blood serum

levels of vitamin D.

 

The inert form Calcidiol is what is biologically available for

conversion by the physiological Kidneys to the active form of vitamin

D, Calcitriol.

 

Now, if the findings are showing low levels of serum vitamin D

correlative to M.S., we are actually looking at the Cacidiol form of

Vitamin D made available by the Liver. I would make the argument that

the TCM Liver dysfunction could be responsible for vitamin D deficiency.

 

Further, due to the function of active vitamin D in immunology as a

immune response suppressor (Yin-substance containing Yang-action), I

would argue that vitamin D is an expression of Yin. Vacuity of Liver

Yin could lead to cascading Yin Vacuity in other areas, such as,

Yin-vitamin D.

 

Jamey Johnston, C.Ac

 

Chinese Medicine , " znelms "

<znelms wrote:

>

> Jamey, Sounds like a good analysis and I think you're on to something,

> but it doesn't account for why MS is more prevalent in Northern

> regions, especially the Pacific Northwest.

> Could Wind, Damp, and Cold play a role?

> Perhaps a latent pathogen that nestles up against the nerves is under

> attack by the immune system and the myelin damage is more of collateral

> damage of the body's assault on the pathogen.

> Perhaps qi and yang deficiency leads to a weak immune response, so the

> pathogen isn't expelled, allowing the pathogen to do its work of

> damaging the myelin.

> Does lack of sunlight in the Northern Environs lead to a Vitamin D

> deficiency? How does Vit D deficiency play a role and what is the TCM

> connection? Vitamin D production is stimulated by exposure to the sun

> and transformed in the Kidneys, so is it a form of Kidney Yang Qi?

> Can Kidney Yang Vacuity lead to immune dysfunction?

> And so on...

> There's definitely more to it.

>

> Zachary Nelms L.Ac.

>

[Guest guest]

,

 

The translations for the Pin-Yin terms I have used are coming from

" Practical Therapeutics of Traditional " , by Wu and

Fischer, and " The Treatment of Modern Western Medical Diseases with

" , by Flaws.

 

The capitalization of Chinese medical terms is merely a substitution

of italics so that the terms stand out. It was done for textual

emphasis reasons alone.

 

Jamey

 

 

Chinese Medicine ,

<zrosenbe wrote:

>

> I am curious where you are coming up with your translations of these

> terms so I can look up the definitions in more detail. Also, your use

> of capitalizations for the Chinese medical terms. . .

>

>

>

> On May 1, 2008, at 1:21 PM, snowmans_shadow wrote:

>

> >

> > Most of the TCM information that I am able to find equates the large

> > bulk of M.S. symptoms with Wei Zheng, wilting condition; Ma Mu,

> > numbness; Fa Li, lack of strength; Zhen Chan, spasticity; Mu Hu,

> > blurred

> > vision; and Shi Yi Wei Er, double vision. Of course this is not a

> > complete list, but it covers a broad scope of common symptoms.

> >

> > In the reference materials I have read, the TCM conditions are

> > commonly

> > attributed to broad pattern classifications of Qi and Yin Deficiency,

> > Internally Generated Wind, Phlegm Damp, and/or Damp Heat.

>

>

> Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

> Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

> San Diego, Ca. 92122

 

[Guest guest]

Thank you. . .

 

 

Z'ev

On May 2, 2008, at 11:50 AM, snowmans_shadow wrote:

 

> ,

>

> The translations for the Pin-Yin terms I have used are coming from

> " Practical Therapeutics of Traditional " , by Wu and

> Fischer, and " The Treatment of Modern Western Medical Diseases with

> " , by Flaws.

>

> The capitalization of Chinese medical terms is merely a substitution

> of italics so that the terms stand out. It was done for textual

> emphasis reasons alone.

>

> Jamey

>

> Chinese Medicine ,

> <zrosenbe wrote:

> >

> > I am curious where you are coming up with your translations of these

> > terms so I can look up the definitions in more detail. Also, your

> use

> > of capitalizations for the Chinese medical terms. . .

> >

> >

> >

> > On May 1, 2008, at 1:21 PM, snowmans_shadow wrote:

> >

> > >

> > > Most of the TCM information that I am able to find equates the

> large

> > > bulk of M.S. symptoms with Wei Zheng, wilting condition; Ma Mu,

> > > numbness; Fa Li, lack of strength; Zhen Chan, spasticity; Mu Hu,

> > > blurred

> > > vision; and Shi Yi Wei Er, double vision. Of course this is not a

> > > complete list, but it covers a broad scope of common symptoms.

> > >

> > > In the reference materials I have read, the TCM conditions are

> > > commonly

> > > attributed to broad pattern classifications of Qi and Yin

> Deficiency,

> > > Internally Generated Wind, Phlegm Damp, and/or Damp Heat.

> >

> >

> > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

> > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

> > San Diego, Ca. 92122

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I have so many references, and the work is out there abeit the connections have

to be made. Ie, the Townsend Newsletters November 2003 on MS and Neurologic

Disorders, look also at the great letter to the Editor about the entire

situation from Dr. Barbara Brewitt.

I am privy to many vaccine reaserch articles and private information coming from

pathologist, immunologist.

For the information from even Dr. Mercola's site on neuroinflamation and

vaccines, vaccine contents and fillers

and his articles are always listing references.One of the articles recently in

the Hayward Study dont by Dr. Glickman from Perdue that showed only vaccinated

animals developed auto antibodies, and to what you ask? our entire support

structures, myelin,lamelin,cardiolin,collagen, etc. This is the most disturbing

becasue there simply are NO SAFETY studies done on vaccines and NO LONG TERM

studies exonerating vaccines from any of the accusations coking out of the

questions we now have simply knowing now how mammailian immune systems

work.Anything in the vaccines, injected into the body have the potention and

will most certainly,

develop autoantibodies, the neuroinflamation and demyelination (as in the GSD

Degenerative myelopathy is

in fact an autoimmune disease) The vasculitis that results following vaccine

administration is causing a lupoid onchodystrophy.Atopy is cause by the

increased production of IgE, and therefore atopy patients should not even be

allery tested within 3 months of a vaccine.Vaccines are simply not that safe

protector from disease anyone was lead to believe, they are in fact the cause of

genetic mutations within our genome and the reason for most of internal

disease.Your disease depends on which tissues your body makes autantibodies to.

I would have to contact you off list to send all the papers, pictures etc.On

this Monday both Dr. Rebecca Carley and I will be on the Winning Life Through

Pain about MS and Fibromyalgia, this would be a good listen for those wanting

the MD perspective of how this is playing out in human medicine.We have been

blind and ignorant in veteirnary medicine to the fact that vaccines are

responsible for everything from cancer to autoimmune disease to skin disease to

degenerative hip dysplasia.The way a breed gets the disease is through genetic

manipulation, which is done via vaccination.We have Guillan Barre like cases in

the animals which I recognize now and these are always poor animals over

vaccinated with these toxic casseroles that we call vaccines, not well thought

out and as Dr. Harris Coulter says, will be look at in the future both in shame

and horror.Medical hubris has its consequences, its collateral

damage.Sincerely,Patricia Jordan DVM,CVA,CTCVM & Herbology

 

 

:

snowmans_shadow: Fri, 2 May 2008 04:00:25 +0000Re: TCM -

Multiple Sclerosis and TCM Pattern Diagnosis

 

 

 

 

Greetings Patricia,Could you point me to the reference material you are using

for vaccineinduced causation of M.S.? I've read a little on the vaccine

theoryand heavy metal toxicity, but I hadn't read anything conclusive.Thank

you.Chinese Medicine , Patricia

Jordan<coastalcatclinic wrote:>> > MS is definetly a result of vaccine

induced disease.In TCVM, we lookat vaccination as the cause of Blood

defeciency.Vaccines contain bothmercury and aluminum salts and is very,very

corrosive innature.Neuroinflamation we know occurs in vaccinates and then

canexpress phenotypically as the mutation> from the vaccine. Vitamin E has

helped this situation in veterinarypatients.Sincerely,Patricia Jordan

DVM,CVA,CTCVM & Herbology> > > :

snowmans_shadow: Thu, 1May 2008 20:21:28 +0000Multiple

Sclerosis and TCMPattern Diagnosis> > > > > I am very interested in M.S. and

Chinese medicine approaches. Belowisa chain of thought I've had for awhile and

I'm curious what myfellowTCM practitioners think.Background:In Western Medicine

we'vecome to know that M.S. results in a diseasemechanism of demyelinationof the

nerves causing plaques, or sclerosis. This in turn degradesnerve impulse

transmission. Cumulative scleroticplaques lead to theincrease of symptom and

disease progression. Disease cause isunknown.Most of the TCM information that I

am able to find equates thelargebulk of M.S. symptoms with Wei Zheng, wilting

condition; MaMu,numbness; Fa Li, lack of strength; Zhen Chan, spasticity; Mu

Hu,blurredvision; and Shi Yi Wei Er, double vision. Of course this is

notacomplete list, but it covers a broad scope of common symptoms.In

thereference materials I have read, the TCM conditions arecommonlyattributed to

broad pattern classifications of Qi and YinDeficiency,Internally Generated Wind,

Phlegm Damp, and/or DampHeat.Now research has also shown that inflammation

occurs within thenervoussystem with M.S. Both T-cells and Macrophages have been

foundto havecrossed the brain-blood barriers to interact

inmyelindestruction/consumption.Conventionally, Traditional ChineseMedicine

attributes the Liver asgoverning the sinews and nerves, aswell as, the

Blood.Hypothesis:I'm going to posit the following.Nerves, and nerve impulses are

Yangin nature, as is the overallinflammation process. Pretty basic idea.

Meanwhile, Myelin as a fattyprotein that functions to contain, andinsulate the

nerves is Yin innature. Another pretty basic idea.If we are looking strictly at

thedisease mechanism (the destruction andconsumption of myelin

throughinflammatory processes) in TCMpathogenesis we can conclude Liver Yinis

depleted because of the natureof myelin and the function of theLiver over the

nerves. Perhaps thisoccurs through either a root YinDeficiency failing to

contain Yang, ora root Yang Excess conditionovercoming Yin. I really think that

wouldbe situationallydependent.Now, as the Yin-Myelin is broken down by the Yang

activityofinflammation, some of the Yin and Yang combine to

transformintopathogenic Damp-Heat, or even greater Phlegm-Damp-Heat.Of

coursefrom this underlying base pattern we can then combine symptombasedpatterns

of Wei Zheng, Ma Mu, etc., etc.Let me know what youthink.Jamey Johnston,

C.Ac[Non-text portions of this message have beenremoved] > > > > > > >

________> Spell a grand slam

in this game where word skill meets World Series.Get in the

game.>http://club.live.com/word_slugger.aspx?icid=word_slugger_wlhm_admod_april0\

8> >

[Guest guest]

If vaccines are causing these mutations/autoantibodies/diseases my question

becomes how do we treat such an insult? If someone does get a vaccine

induced disease do they have any chance of eliminating it? I am especially

interested in TCM approaches but anything that works would be good to know.

It sounds like it would be some very deep work, long term, slow progress,

changing things at a very deep level.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

So you are saying there were no auto immune diseases before vaccines.

Obviously you cant support this assertion.

 

 

 

400 29th St. Suite 419

Oakland Ca 94609

 

 

 

alonmarcus

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Alon Marcus,

 

I am going to assume you were addressing Patricia in your post.

 

Chinese Medicine , alon marcus

<alonmarcus wrote:

>

> So you are saying there were no auto immune diseases before

vaccines.

> Obviously you cant support this assertion.

>

>

>

> 400 29th St. Suite 419

> Oakland Ca 94609

>

>

>

> alonmarcus

>

 

[Guest guest]

Patricia,

 

I want to clarify how I am reading your post because I feel less

than clear on your supporting information.

 

You are asserting that vaccines are the major contributor to auto-

immune disorders. You stated that you are " privy to vaccine

research and private information coming from a pathologist " , then

stated later that " no long term studies exonerating vaccines from

any of the accusations " . Are you saying that there are indeed long-

term studies that support your claim that vaccine causes increased

incidence of auto-immune disorders? Does Dr. Mercola have published

work that you are referencing? Please pick the best source material

you feel supports this claim because I am very interested in

learning more about this.

 

You also write, " Anything in the vaccines, injected into the body

have the potenti[al] and will most certainly, develop

autoantibodies, the neuroinflamation and demyelination (as in the

GSD Degenerative myelopathy is in fact an autoimmune disease). "

 

I would like to know your best reference material showing that

the " body will most certainly develop an auto-immune response "

because I find the idea very interesting.

 

I am also interested in hearing how you connect vaccination to Blood

Vacuity from earlier statements/posts. What is the Traditional

Chinese Medical mechanism that causes vaccination to induce Blood

Vacuity?

 

I will say that autoimmune disorders were present in the human

population long before immunization was even theorized. In fact the

first case recorded that is now believed to be M.S. occurred in 1421

ad. The increase in incidence of auto-immune disorders, I feel,

could be related to your assertation, but not the only reason auto-

immune occurs.

 

Thanks for your time,

Jamey Johnston, C.Ac

 

Chinese Medicine , Patricia Jordan

<coastalcatclinic wrote:

>

>

> I have so many references, and the work is out there abeit the

connections have to be made. Ie, the Townsend Newsletters November

2003 on MS and Neurologic Disorders, look also at the great letter

to the Editor about the entire situation from Dr. Barbara Brewitt.

> I am privy to many vaccine reaserch articles and private

information coming from pathologist, immunologist.

> For the information from even Dr. Mercola's site on

neuroinflamation and vaccines, vaccine contents and fillers

> and his articles are always listing references.One of the articles

recently in the Hayward Study dont by Dr. Glickman from Perdue that

showed only vaccinated animals developed auto antibodies, and to

what you ask? our entire support structures,

myelin,lamelin,cardiolin,collagen, etc. This is the most disturbing

becasue there simply are NO SAFETY studies done on vaccines and NO

LONG TERM studies exonerating vaccines from any of the accusations

coking out of the questions we now have simply knowing now how

mammailian immune systems work.Anything in the vaccines, injected

into the body have the potention and will most certainly,

> develop autoantibodies, the neuroinflamation and demyelination (as

in the GSD Degenerative myelopathy is

> in fact an autoimmune disease) The vasculitis that results

following vaccine administration is causing a lupoid

onchodystrophy.Atopy is cause by the increased production of IgE,

and therefore atopy patients should not even be allery tested within

3 months of a vaccine.Vaccines are simply not that safe protector

from disease anyone was lead to believe, they are in fact the cause

of genetic mutations within our genome and the reason for most of

internal disease.Your disease depends on which tissues your body

makes autantibodies to.

> I would have to contact you off list to send all the papers,

pictures etc.On this Monday both Dr. Rebecca Carley and I will be on

the Winning Life Through Pain about MS and Fibromyalgia, this would

be a good listen for those wanting the MD perspective of how this is

playing out in human medicine.We have been blind and ignorant in

veteirnary medicine to the fact that vaccines are responsible for

everything from cancer to autoimmune disease to skin disease to

degenerative hip dysplasia.The way a breed gets the disease is

through genetic manipulation, which is done via vaccination.We have

Guillan Barre like cases in the animals which I recognize now and

these are always poor animals over vaccinated with these toxic

casseroles that we call vaccines, not well thought out and as Dr.

Harris Coulter says, will be look at in the future both in shame and

horror.Medical hubris has its consequences, its collateral

damage.Sincerely,Patricia Jordan DVM,CVA,CTCVM & Herbology

[Guest guest]

Vaccines are generally considered as Heat Toxin. In TCVM, there are two major

side-effects of vaccination: Liver Yin/Blood Deficiency and Phlegm accumulation.

 

1) Liver Yin/Blood Deficiency

When Heat toxin enters the body, it is the Liver Yin that is confronting and

trying to cool off the Heat and also relieve toxins. A strong individual of

sufficient Liver Yin mild vaccination program should be NO problems as Liver Yin

is strong enough to detoxify, clear heat and remove toxins. Consuming Liver Yin

is able to recover and regenerate from Kidney Yin (or Kidney Jing) and Liver

Blood.

 

I have found that majority of cases of acute vaccination reaction have some

degree of Liver Yin/Blood Deficiency or Kid Jing Deficiency. Over-vaccination

program (too excessive Heat Toxin) damages Liver Yin, and then Liver Blood

(during the processing when the Liver Blood is reinforced for the damaged Liver

Yin), gradually leading to Blood Deficiency. The Liver is the storage of Blood.

 

2) Phlegm accumulation

 

Excessive Heat in the body boils body fluids, gradually resulting in Phlegm.

Accumulation of Phlegm leads to lumps, masses, or even cancer.

Sincerely,Patricia Jordan DVM,CVA,CTCVM & Herbology

 

 

:

snowmans_shadow: Fri, 2 May 2008 04:08:34 +0000Re: TCM -

Multiple Sclerosis and TCM Pattern Diagnosis

 

 

 

 

Patricia,Could you also describe the TCM mechanism at work behind

thevaccinations leading to Blood Deficiency? I'm not sure I understandthe " how "

there.Thanks again,JameyChinese Medicine ,

Patricia Jordan<coastalcatclinic wrote:>> > MS is definetly a result of

vaccine induced disease.In TCVM, we lookat vaccination as the cause of Blood

defeciency.Vaccines contain bothmercury and aluminum salts and is very,very

corrosive innature.Neuroinflamation we know occurs in vaccinates and then

canexpress phenotypically as the mutation> from the vaccine. Vitamin E has

helped this situation in veterinarypatients.Sincerely,Patricia Jordan

DVM,CVA,CTCVM & Herbology> > > :

snowmans_shadow: Thu, 1May 2008 20:21:28 +0000Multiple

Sclerosis and TCMPattern Diagnosis> > > > > I am very interested in M.S. and

Chinese medicine approaches. Belowisa chain of thought I've had for awhile and

I'm curious what myfellowTCM practitioners think.Background:In Western Medicine

we'vecome to know that M.S. results in a diseasemechanism of demyelinationof the

nerves causing plaques, or sclerosis. This in turn degradesnerve impulse

transmission. Cumulative scleroticplaques lead to theincrease of symptom and

disease progression. Disease cause isunknown.Most of the TCM information that I

am able to find equates thelargebulk of M.S. symptoms with Wei Zheng, wilting

condition; MaMu,numbness; Fa Li, lack of strength; Zhen Chan, spasticity; Mu

Hu,blurredvision; and Shi Yi Wei Er, double vision. Of course this is

notacomplete list, but it covers a broad scope of common symptoms.In

thereference materials I have read, the TCM conditions arecommonlyattributed to

broad pattern classifications of Qi and YinDeficiency,Internally Generated Wind,

Phlegm Damp, and/or DampHeat.Now research has also shown that inflammation

occurs within thenervoussystem with M.S. Both T-cells and Macrophages have been

foundto havecrossed the brain-blood barriers to interact

inmyelindestruction/consumption.Conventionally, Traditional ChineseMedicine

attributes the Liver asgoverning the sinews and nerves, aswell as, the

Blood.Hypothesis:I'm going to posit the following.Nerves, and nerve impulses are

Yangin nature, as is the overallinflammation process. Pretty basic idea.

Meanwhile, Myelin as a fattyprotein that functions to contain, andinsulate the

nerves is Yin innature. Another pretty basic idea.If we are looking strictly at

thedisease mechanism (the destruction andconsumption of myelin

throughinflammatory processes) in TCMpathogenesis we can conclude Liver Yinis

depleted because of the natureof myelin and the function of theLiver over the

nerves. Perhaps thisoccurs through either a root YinDeficiency failing to

contain Yang, ora root Yang Excess conditionovercoming Yin. I really think that

wouldbe situationallydependent.Now, as the Yin-Myelin is broken down by the Yang

activityofinflammation, some of the Yin and Yang combine to

transformintopathogenic Damp-Heat, or even greater Phlegm-Damp-Heat.Of

coursefrom this underlying base pattern we can then combine symptombasedpatterns

of Wei Zheng, Ma Mu, etc., etc.Let me know what youthink.Jamey Johnston,

C.Ac[Non-text portions of this message have beenremoved] > > > > > > >

________> Spell a grand slam

in this game where word skill meets World Series.Get in the

game.>http://club.live.com/word_slugger.aspx?icid=word_slugger_wlhm_admod_april0\

8> >

[Guest guest]

Okay this could all jib with my original post and my reply to Zachary

in post 29110. The Heat Toxin of the vaccine would fall into the

classification of External Pathogen.

 

Jamey

 

Chinese Medicine , Patricia Jordan

<coastalcatclinic wrote:

>

>

> Vaccines are generally considered as Heat Toxin. In TCVM, there are

two major side-effects of vaccination: Liver Yin/Blood Deficiency and

Phlegm accumulation.

>

> 1) Liver Yin/Blood Deficiency

> When Heat toxin enters the body, it is the Liver Yin that is

confronting and trying to cool off the Heat and also relieve toxins. A

strong individual of sufficient Liver Yin mild vaccination program

should be NO problems as Liver Yin is strong enough to detoxify, clear

heat and remove toxins. Consuming Liver Yin is able to recover and

regenerate from Kidney Yin (or Kidney Jing) and Liver Blood.

>

> I have found that majority of cases of acute vaccination reaction

have some degree of Liver Yin/Blood Deficiency or Kid Jing Deficiency.

Over-vaccination program (too excessive Heat Toxin) damages Liver Yin,

and then Liver Blood (during the processing when the Liver Blood is

reinforced for the damaged Liver Yin), gradually leading to Blood

Deficiency. The Liver is the storage of Blood.

>

> 2) Phlegm accumulation

>

> Excessive Heat in the body boils body fluids, gradually resulting in

Phlegm. Accumulation of Phlegm leads to lumps, masses, or even cancer.

> Sincerely,Patricia Jordan DVM,CVA,CTCVM & Herbology

[Guest guest]

Alon,

Saying there were no autoimmune diseases is obviously wrong, but

there is a strong possibility that they have increased as a result of

increased vaccine use.

 

 

On May 3, 2008, at 9:30 AM, alon marcus wrote:

 

> So you are saying there were no auto immune diseases before vaccines.

> Obviously you cant support this assertion.

>

>

 

 

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Zev

Its an amazing issue showing human tendencies for different world

views. There have been comprehensive reviews by both sides of the

issue with completely different opinions. Therefor i do not believe we

obsoletely know as of this point. If there is an increase then we will

have to weigh benefit vs harm, something that would not be easy

because we do not know the dangers these days with improved public

health in general and on the one hand increased population density and

working families.

 

 

 

400 29th St. Suite 419

Oakland Ca 94609

 

 

 

alonmarcus

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Alon,

Clearly this is a highly complex issue, with a lot of emotional

involvement from both sides. When you tie in political and corporate/

profit concerns, you'd need a mega-study covering all aspects to do it

justice.

 

 

On May 4, 2008, at 9:43 AM, alon marcus wrote:

 

> Zev

> Its an amazing issue showing human tendencies for different world

> views. There have been comprehensive reviews by both sides of the

> issue with completely different opinions. Therefor i do not believe we

> obsoletely know as of this point. If there is an increase then we will

> have to weigh benefit vs harm, something that would not be easy

> because we do not know the dangers these days with improved public

> health in general and on the one hand increased population density and

> working families.

>

>

>

> 400 29th St. Suite 419

> Oakland Ca 94609

>

>

>

> alonmarcus

>

>

[Guest guest]

Alon,

Clearly this is a highly complex issue, with a lot of emotional

involvement from both sides. When you tie in political and corporate/

profit concerns, you'd need a mega-study covering all aspects to do it

justice.

 

 

On May 4, 2008, at 9:43 AM, alon marcus wrote:

 

> Zev

> Its an amazing issue showing human tendencies for different world

> views. There have been comprehensive reviews by both sides of the

> issue with completely different opinions. Therefor i do not believe we

> obsoletely know as of this point. If there is an increase then we will

> have to weigh benefit vs harm, something that would not be easy

> because we do not know the dangers these days with improved public

> health in general and on the one hand increased population density and

> working families.

>

>

>

> 400 29th St. Suite 419

> Oakland Ca 94609

>

>

>

> alonmarcus

>

>

[Guest guest]

There has been some discussion both in China and the west about latent

qi theory being applicable to such situations, the need to outthrust

evil toxins from the ying and xue aspects with such prescriptions as

qing ying tang. The best time to treat a vaccinated patient would be

as close to the original vaccination as possible, not several years

later..

 

 

On May 3, 2008, at 8:28 AM, Brian Harasha wrote:

 

> If vaccines are causing these mutations/autoantibodies/diseases my

> question

> becomes how do we treat such an insult? If someone does get a vaccine

> induced disease do they have any chance of eliminating it? I am

> especially

> interested in TCM approaches but anything that works would be good

> to know.

> It sounds like it would be some very deep work, long term, slow

> progress,

> changing things at a very deep level.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Zev raises another issue - which could be a real conflict between CM and

Western med. I kinda get this image of CM practitioners 'sweeping up'

after vaccinations, that is trying to expel latent pathogens present

because of vaccinations.

karen

 

wrote:

 

> There has been some discussion both in China and the west about latent

> qi theory being applicable to such situations, the need to outthrust

> evil toxins from the ying and xue aspects with such prescriptions as

> qing ying tang. The best time to treat a vaccinated patient would be

> as close to the original vaccination as possible, not several years

> later..

>

>

> On May 3, 2008, at 8:28 AM, Brian Harasha wrote:

>

> > If vaccines are causing these mutations/autoantibodies/diseases my

> > question

> > becomes how do we treat such an insult? If someone does get a vaccine

> > induced disease do they have any chance of eliminating it? I am

> > especially

> > interested in TCM approaches but anything that works would be good

> > to know.

> > It sounds like it would be some very deep work, long term, slow

> > progress,

> > changing things at a very deep level.

> >

> >