Guest guest Posted April 14, 2008 Report Share Posted April 14, 2008 I broke my right wrist (non-displaced radial Fx) and realized how little I knew about non-western treatment methods and could use some help in this regard!! Have been doing well with pain control via ashi points, chi gong and needle w/ electrostim of LI-4,10,11, LU-5,6, SI-5 & 9, but am open to ideas and suggestions, especially as regards herbal therapy. I am using my old standard of Arnica and ice all of which helps. I await your brilliant advice! Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2008 Report Share Posted April 14, 2008 Bill: I like Yunnan Baiyao patches for injuries like this. You can put them on at night and they last 12 hrs. I have had people in pain also use them in the day. There is a limit per day on the box. I like Ashi in the area of the pain, but also you can try the contralateral of Dr. Tan. Can be very effective. A simple approach would be the same meridian on the opposite ankle, e.g. For Triple Heater, use GB ashi points at the ankle and above, mirroring it. If pain is on the LI line, also go after ST on ankle and above, Ashi points. I like to do one treatment at a time, try one meridian, if pain is still there, add the other meridian. (Keep this contralateral treatment separate from the Ashi in the sight - surrounding the dragon - treatment). You can find more detailed tx's on his website, and I found these simple techniques to be very effective. Hope this helps, Anne -- Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., M.Ac., Dipl.Ac. www.SouthernMDacupuncture.com -------------- Original message ---------------------- " William Morse, D.C., FIACA " <dokkabill > I broke my right wrist (non-displaced radial Fx) and realized how > little I knew about non-western treatment methods and could use some > help in this regard!! Have been doing well with pain control via ashi > points, chi gong and needle w/ electrostim of LI-4,10,11, LU-5,6, SI-5 > & 9, but am open to ideas and suggestions, especially as regards herbal > therapy. I am using my old standard of Arnica and ice all of which > helps. > > I await your brilliant advice! > > Bill > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2008 Report Share Posted April 14, 2008 Bill, So sad you didn't use TCM to treat yourself. Here's a old recipe I use for joining broken bones: *Jie Gu Dan* Dang Gui Wei 120 g Ru Xiang, Mo Yao, Zi Ran Tong, Gu Sui Bu, Tao Ren, Da Huang, Xiong Huang, Bai Ji 30 g Xue Jie, Tu Bie Chong, San Qi, Chi Shao, Hong Hua, Er Cha 15 g Bing Pian, Zhu Sha 6 g She Xiang 1.5 g All herbs are ground and made into capsules, take 6-8 capsules TID. Removes blood stasis, repairs fracture and tissues. You can also use an external Rx: *Xiao Zhong Zhi Tong Gao* (Stop swelling and pain paste) Jiang Huang, Qiang Huo, Gan Jiang, Zhi Zi, Mo Yao, Ru Xiang 1 portion each Grind all herbs into a powder, then mix with Vaseline to form a paste, apply on affected area. Removes blood stasis, subdues swelling, alleviates pain. Joins bones, repairs sinews and ligaments. I have studied Gu Shang Ke since my teenage years in Chinese martial arts. Both Rx's are proven and have a great effect. May your suffering end! On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 9:04 AM, William Morse, D.C., FIACA < dokkabill wrote: > I broke my right wrist (non-displaced radial Fx) and realized how > little I knew about non-western treatment methods and could use some > help in this regard!! Have been doing well with pain control via ashi > points, chi gong and needle w/ electrostim of LI-4,10,11, LU-5,6, SI-5 > & 9, but am open to ideas and suggestions, especially as regards herbal > therapy. I am using my old standard of Arnica and ice all of which > helps. > > I await your brilliant advice! > > Bill > > > -- Robert Chu, PhD, L.Ac. QME chusauli See my webpages at: www.chusaulei.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2008 Report Share Posted April 14, 2008 Bill, Most acupuncturists are poor acupuncturists. Of course, you should use distal needling methods on needling the unaffected side. I'll assume it is the LI and Lu channels involved in your right wrist. If so, needle the left leg Spleen 6, 8, 9, and St 34, 40, 41. Bloodletting on Lu 5 and LI 11 on the affected limb is also good. Good luck. Best regards, Robert Chu, PhD, L.Ac., QME On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 9:04 AM, William Morse, D.C., FIACA < dokkabill wrote: > I broke my right wrist (non-displaced radial Fx) and realized how > little I knew about non-western treatment methods and could use some > help in this regard!! Have been doing well with pain control via ashi > points, chi gong and needle w/ electrostim of LI-4,10,11, LU-5,6, SI-5 > & 9, but am open to ideas and suggestions, especially as regards herbal > therapy. I am using my old standard of Arnica and ice all of which > helps. > > I await your brilliant advice! > > Bill > > > -- Robert Chu, PhD, L.Ac. QME chusauli See my webpages at: www.chusaulei.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2008 Report Share Posted April 14, 2008 Thanks to you Robert, I am! any good text to suggest? Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2008 Report Share Posted April 14, 2008 Thanks for the cheap shot Robert. treating the affected side is also appropriate and effective. treating distal points of liver spleen and gsllbladder did little for pain, but will be of great effect later. Sometimes what you think you know doesn't work. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2008 Report Share Posted April 14, 2008 Excellent advice Anne. I have used most of it with great success. Thank you. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2008 Report Share Posted April 14, 2008 Bill, No cheap shot meant for you or anyone in particular. Most acupuncturists have no reason and logic guiding them for choosing points other than empirical or " cookbook " approach. Its the way TCM is taught in this country. Its a fact. Miriam Lee said, " If the baby is crying, don't spank it. " In your case, if your limb is injured, no sense in further needling the affected side, just needle the contralateral side. And if you believe in the channels or not, it will work. As I said, I will assume that the affected channels on your right wrist are the Lung and LI, so using this reasoning, we select the Sp and St points based on function and correspondence location. If you don't use this logical reasoning, how are you selecting the points? Regarding your statement, " Sometimes what you think you know doesn't work " , I am in full agreement. To me, function is more important than form, application is my guide, and experience beats experiment. Best regards, On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 11:21 AM, William Morse, D.C., FIACA < dokkabill wrote: > Thanks for the cheap shot Robert. > > treating the affected side is also appropriate and effective. treating > distal points of liver spleen and gsllbladder did little for pain, but > will be of great effect later. > > Sometimes what you think you know doesn't work. > > Bill > > > -- Robert Chu, PhD, L.Ac. QME chusauli See my webpages at: www.chusaulei.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 15, 2008 Report Share Posted April 15, 2008 Robert: After sustaining the injury I realized I didn't know how to treat it properly and went to the books in my library. Interestingly enough and frustratingly for me, almost all address " non-fracture " acute traumatic injuries. Only in the Neijing could I find any reference to broken bones. So my first inclination was to treat the symptoms with ice and immbilization, which was aided by splinting in the ER and try some general pain relief to avoid pain killers. When I got home (broke it skiing) I balanced my meridians via tsing and luo points with good effect. Then I tried the opposites and distal points and channels (SP ST) with LU 5 and LI 4, 10 on the opposite side and remaned in some pain even with electro stim. I basically began treatment of a " Gu Bi " syndrome of the wrist bones. I decided to " run the channels " along both arms in the ancient manner, treating the " active " points and " removing heat " near the trauma site all with excellent effect. I have since worked the Xi- cleft, luo and local points as indicated, primarily on the effected side. " Spanking the baby " as you put it worked quite nicely in the acute phase. My sources for that were Zhang Dengbu'a " Difficult Cases " , Shanghai Universities " Acupucure and Moxibustion " , Maoshing Ni's " The Yellow Emperor's Classic " , Mao Qunhui's " Effective Points Therapy " , and my acquired knowledge. I had to go for immediate relief with needles because working channel theory didn't cut it and I didn't have anything else in the Chinese Medicine or herbal realm (except Arnica) which is why I started this tract. By-the-way, thank you for your excellent herbal information. I see my Acupuncturist tomorrow and will acquire the herbs for your suggested formulas. This is exactly what I was looking for. Thanks again for that. Oh, and way-by-the-way, I am typing with my middle, index and ring fingers today (just over 72 hrs post)! In a splint of course! bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 15, 2008 Report Share Posted April 15, 2008 Bill, My point is to identify the channels involved first, then select the proper points. Jing Well and Luo points work great, but Shu Stream and Xi Cleft points would have worked better, combined with Ying Spring points for the affected channels. What are the affected channels on your broken wrist? Once you answer this question, select the Ying Spring, Shu Stream and Xi Cleft points of each channel. Then needle these points on the opposite arm, or use the Same Channel name (Tong Ming Jing) leg points. Good to have Yunnan Bai Yao, Zheng Gu Shui, 701 Die Da Yao Gao patches and other topicals for trauma in an emergency kit. BTW, this is not Gu Bi - this is Gu Shang! Best wishes for your speedy recovery. On Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 9:59 AM, William Morse, D.C., FIACA < dokkabill wrote: > Robert: > > After sustaining the injury I realized I didn't know how to treat it > properly and went to the books in my library. Interestingly enough > and frustratingly for me, almost all address " non-fracture " acute > traumatic injuries. Only in the Neijing could I find any reference > to broken bones. So my first inclination was to treat the symptoms > with ice and immbilization, which was aided by splinting in the ER > and try some general pain relief to avoid pain killers. > > When I got home (broke it skiing) I balanced my meridians via tsing > and luo points with good effect. Then I tried the opposites and > distal points and channels (SP ST) with LU 5 and LI 4, 10 on the > opposite side and remaned in some pain even with electro stim. > > I basically began treatment of a " Gu Bi " syndrome of the wrist bones. > > I decided to " run the channels " along both arms in the ancient > manner, treating the " active " points and " removing heat " near the > trauma site all with excellent effect. I have since worked the Xi- > cleft, luo and local points as indicated, primarily on the effected > side. > > " Spanking the baby " as you put it worked quite nicely in the acute > phase. My sources for that were Zhang Dengbu'a " Difficult Cases " , > Shanghai Universities " Acupucure and Moxibustion " , Maoshing Ni's " The > Yellow Emperor's Classic " , Mao Qunhui's " Effective Points Therapy " , > and my acquired knowledge. > > I had to go for immediate relief with needles because working channel > theory didn't cut it and I didn't have anything else in the Chinese > Medicine or herbal realm (except Arnica) which is why I started this > tract. > > By-the-way, thank you for your excellent herbal information. I see > my Acupuncturist tomorrow and will acquire the herbs for your > suggested formulas. This is exactly what I was looking for. Thanks > again for that. > > Oh, and way-by-the-way, I am typing with my middle, index and ring > fingers today (just over 72 hrs post)! In a splint of course! > > bill > > > -- Robert Chu, PhD, L.Ac. QME chusauli See my webpages at: www.chusaulei.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2008 Report Share Posted April 19, 2008 I treated 2 patients with broken bones, both of which were supposed to have surgery and one also needing a bone graft. I did needles above and below the fracture, with electrical stim attached to needles above, running to below (through the break). Neither had to have surgery. case #1 was a cyclist, who fell off his bike for the 2nd time and broke his collar bone in the same exact place. He was seeing the orthopedic doc for the university of texas athletes, who told him he needed surgery and a bone graft. Said doc was also very disparaging about acupcunture, but since he was already my patient for a motor sensory problem wm could do nothing for that actually responded quite well to acupuncture, he came to see me anyway for the broken bone. We did 2 txs a week for a month. When he returned to orthopedist, he was very surprised to see his xrays and told him they wouldn't need to do a bone graft or surgery. Pt was pleased and stopped seeing me. When he went back for his 2 month check up, he still had some ache in the break. When the doc put up his xrays he said, " It looks like the healing process stopped dead in it's tracks since the last time I saw you..... " He called me from the doctor's office hallway to schedule another appointment. I treated once a week till the ache stopped. #2 case- single mom broke her ankle playing soccer. Doctor told her she must have surgery. She refused due to a 5 year old child at home. he told her she was not being a good mother by not having the surgery. I treated once a week for a month or a little more, and when she went back he told her that it had healed far better than he expected and that she did not need to have surgery after all. good luck, Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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