Guest guest Posted April 10, 2008 Report Share Posted April 10, 2008 Hi - In TCM school, the " 7 emotions " needle pattern, using 7 needles from Tai yang to Tai yang at the hairline plus Yin tang (total 8 needles), was passed on from student to student. No instructor ever directly taught that pattern, in lecture or clinic, so I don't know where it came from. Does anyone have anymore information on the Seven Emotion needle pattern? I was considering using it as a way to introduce acupuncture at an open house, because it always gives such wonderful results and would be easy to needle in a group environment. I am thinking twice now because I can't find any documentation on it, and am concerned that all face points (with no intake) may be contraindicated. Any comments? I appreciate any feedback. Janis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 11, 2008 Report Share Posted April 11, 2008 Janis, I doubt what's passed down in your school has anything to do with me, but it's interesting to hear it as I did introduce something like this to ACCHS of Oakland, CA around year 2000-ish. The difference is, I use up to 5 needles only; I do not needle the two Taiyangs, bordering at Tou Wei (ST8). We call these Frontal-5, referring to the 5 needles. I learned the Frontal 5 from one of my mentors, Dr. Andrew Wu of Cupertino, CA in 1999 through private internship. Dr. Wu learned it from Prof. Xue Jian Lin of Shanghai, who " discovred " these points (and other scalp points) in the early 70's as an instructor of modern anatomy. Prof. Lin and Dr. Wu use these to treat depression and insomnia; I further expanded it to cover any unusual emotional/mood swings. Dr. Lin and Dr. Wu both needle these points at 30~40-degree angle; I have tended to move toward almost flat, or < 15 degrees. These points have been a big winner for everyone of my insomnia and depression patients. I rarely have to use all 5 though. In most cases I need only the middle 3. When I was in internship in ACCHS, after taking care of several insomnia patients with these points as the main ones, a few teachers came watch how I did it and a couple of them asked me to treat their sleeping challenges. Words spreaded quickly. Some students also learned from me at the time. I told them I learned from Dr. Wu. So in ACCHS, people passed this down as Dr. Wu's Frontal 5. Sometime later, I saw some students (who I did not know before) using these points with small angles as I do. I got curious and asked what these were; they said it's Dr. Wu's Frontal 5, despite that Dr. Wu doesn't needle with such small angles:-) So I have a personal experience of how an oral transmission over time could evolve in only a few years. I won't be surprised if there is an evolutionary story behind the 7 points in your school. Which school did you attend, BTW? Mike L. Janis3934 <janis3934 wrote: Hi - In TCM school, the " 7 emotions " needle pattern, using 7 needles from Tai yang to Tai yang at the hairline plus Yin tang (total 8 needles), was passed on from student to student. No instructor ever directly taught that pattern, in lecture or clinic, so I don't know where it came from. Does anyone have anymore information on the Seven Emotion needle pattern? I was considering using it as a way to introduce acupuncture at an open house, because it always gives such wonderful results and would be easy to needle in a group environment. I am thinking twice now because I can't find any documentation on it, and am concerned that all face points (with no intake) may be contraindicated. Any comments? I appreciate any feedback. Janis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 11, 2008 Report Share Posted April 11, 2008 Hello:Can you give the names of the points for those of us who is not familiar with Dr. Wu's Frontal 5. ThanksEbru G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 11, 2008 Report Share Posted April 11, 2008 So are you talking about Du 24, GB 13, St 8, and Tai Yang? I learned that using Du 24 and GB 13 has a similar effect as the four gates from reading Maciocia, but it was never taught in school, which always surprises me. I think that it is better for deficient people than the Four Gates. So its a great treatment when you want to soothe the liver without risk of depleting the qi. I use is when I need to clear dampness in a yin deficient patient who can develop emotional issues/insomnia from a damp clearing treatment. Laura Chinese Medicine , Mike Liaw <mikeliaw wrote: > > Janis, > > I doubt what's passed down in your school has anything to do with me, but it's interesting to hear it as I did introduce something like this to ACCHS of Oakland, CA around year 2000-ish. The difference is, I use up to 5 needles only; I do not needle the two Taiyangs, bordering at Tou Wei (ST8). We call these Frontal-5, referring to the 5 needles. > > I learned the Frontal 5 from one of my mentors, Dr. Andrew Wu of Cupertino, CA in 1999 through private internship. Dr. Wu learned it from Prof. Xue Jian Lin of Shanghai, who " discovred " these points (and other scalp points) in the early 70's as an instructor of modern anatomy. Prof. Lin and Dr. Wu use these to treat depression and insomnia; I further expanded it to cover any unusual emotional/mood swings. Dr. Lin and Dr. Wu both needle these points at 30~40-degree angle; I have tended to move toward almost flat, or < 15 degrees. These points have been a big winner for everyone of my insomnia and depression patients. I rarely have to use all 5 though. In most cases I need only the middle 3. > > When I was in internship in ACCHS, after taking care of several insomnia patients with these points as the main ones, a few teachers came watch how I did it and a couple of them asked me to treat their sleeping challenges. Words spreaded quickly. Some students also learned from me at the time. I told them I learned from Dr. Wu. So in ACCHS, people passed this down as Dr. Wu's Frontal 5. Sometime later, I saw some students (who I did not know before) using these points with small angles as I do. I got curious and asked what these were; they said it's Dr. Wu's Frontal 5, despite that Dr. Wu doesn't needle with such small angles:-) So I have a personal experience of how an oral transmission over time could evolve in only a few years. I won't be surprised if there is an evolutionary story behind the 7 points in your school. > > Which school did you attend, BTW? > > Mike L. > > Janis3934 <janis3934 wrote: > Hi - In TCM school, the " 7 emotions " needle pattern, using 7 needles > from Tai yang to Tai yang at the hairline plus Yin tang (total 8 > needles), was passed on from student to student. No instructor ever > directly taught that pattern, in lecture or clinic, so I don't know > where it came from. > > Does anyone have anymore information on the Seven Emotion needle > pattern? I was considering using it as a way to introduce acupuncture > at an open house, because it always gives such wonderful results and > would be easy to needle in a group environment. I am thinking twice > now because I can't find any documentation on it, and am concerned that > all face points (with no intake) may be contraindicated. > > Any comments? > > I appreciate any feedback. > > Janis > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 11, 2008 Report Share Posted April 11, 2008 Hi Mike, I attended Midwest College of OM in Racine, WI (also campus in Chicago). My collegue is checking into its origin and thinks it may have come from Pirog or Dr. Chen. Thanks for your info - it's very helpful. Janis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 16, 2008 Report Share Posted April 16, 2008 My apologies to those of you who have been following this thread for the belated respnse. While you may be disappointed that there is no name for these points, it's actually not difficult to locate them. These 5 points are needled at ~ 1/4 inch before the typical hairline. The middle of the 5 points is on Du meridian. The outer two points are roughly the same as TouWei (ST8). Then, you take a point between the middle point on Du and ST8. The needles are inserted from the front toward the back such that the 5 needles look like fanning in toward Du 20. I hope this is clear enough now. Mike L. Ebru Giritligil <egiritligil wrote: Hello:Can you give the names of the points for those of us who is not familiar with Dr. Wu's Frontal 5. ThanksEbru G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 16, 2008 Report Share Posted April 16, 2008 Laura, Yes, I tend to use these for people with some type of deficiency, but not necessarily so. It really depends on how one direct or manipulate Qi. The different styles Dr. Wu and I practices (wrt these 5 points) also has to do with how we deal with Qi in different ways. Mike L. heylaurag <heylaurag wrote: So are you talking about Du 24, GB 13, St 8, and Tai Yang? I learned that using Du 24 and GB 13 has a similar effect as the four gates from reading Maciocia, but it was never taught in school, which always surprises me. I think that it is better for deficient people than the Four Gates. So its a great treatment when you want to soothe the liver without risk of depleting the qi. I use is when I need to clear dampness in a yin deficient patient who can develop emotional issues/insomnia from a damp clearing treatment. Laura Chinese Medicine , Mike Liaw <mikeliaw wrote: > > Janis, > > I doubt what's passed down in your school has anything to do with me, but it's interesting to hear it as I did introduce something like this to ACCHS of Oakland, CA around year 2000-ish. The difference is, I use up to 5 needles only; I do not needle the two Taiyangs, bordering at Tou Wei (ST8). We call these Frontal-5, referring to the 5 needles. > > I learned the Frontal 5 from one of my mentors, Dr. Andrew Wu of Cupertino, CA in 1999 through private internship. Dr. Wu learned it from Prof. Xue Jian Lin of Shanghai, who " discovred " these points (and other scalp points) in the early 70's as an instructor of modern anatomy. Prof. Lin and Dr. Wu use these to treat depression and insomnia; I further expanded it to cover any unusual emotional/mood swings. Dr. Lin and Dr. Wu both needle these points at 30~40-degree angle; I have tended to move toward almost flat, or < 15 degrees. These points have been a big winner for everyone of my insomnia and depression patients. I rarely have to use all 5 though. In most cases I need only the middle 3. > > When I was in internship in ACCHS, after taking care of several insomnia patients with these points as the main ones, a few teachers came watch how I did it and a couple of them asked me to treat their sleeping challenges. Words spreaded quickly. Some students also learned from me at the time. I told them I learned from Dr. Wu. So in ACCHS, people passed this down as Dr. Wu's Frontal 5. Sometime later, I saw some students (who I did not know before) using these points with small angles as I do. I got curious and asked what these were; they said it's Dr. Wu's Frontal 5, despite that Dr. Wu doesn't needle with such small angles:-) So I have a personal experience of how an oral transmission over time could evolve in only a few years. I won't be surprised if there is an evolutionary story behind the 7 points in your school. > > Which school did you attend, BTW? > > Mike L. > > Janis3934 <janis3934 wrote: > Hi - In TCM school, the " 7 emotions " needle pattern, using 7 needles > from Tai yang to Tai yang at the hairline plus Yin tang (total 8 > needles), was passed on from student to student. No instructor ever > directly taught that pattern, in lecture or clinic, so I don't know > where it came from. > > Does anyone have anymore information on the Seven Emotion needle > pattern? I was considering using it as a way to introduce acupuncture > at an open house, because it always gives such wonderful results and > would be easy to needle in a group environment. I am thinking twice > now because I can't find any documentation on it, and am concerned that > all face points (with no intake) may be contraindicated. > > Any comments? > > I appreciate any feedback. > > Janis > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 16, 2008 Report Share Posted April 16, 2008 Mike et al, Is that protocol Du 24, GB 13, ST 8 (as Laura wrote), or Du 24, GB 15, ST 8 ? GB 15 is located midway between ST 8 and Du 24. Is that midpoint location on the anterior hairline or is it literally midway from ST 8 and Du 24, which would be a point somewhere between GB 15 and GB 16. ? Thanks for the clarification. K. On Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 11:07 PM, Mike Liaw <mikeliaw wrote: > Laura, > > Yes, I tend to use these for people with some type of deficiency, but not > necessarily so. > It really depends on how one direct or manipulate Qi. The different styles > Dr. Wu and I practices (wrt these 5 points) also has to do with how we deal > with Qi in different ways. > > Mike L. > > > heylaurag <heylaurag <heylaurag%40hotmail.com>> wrote: > So are you talking about Du 24, GB 13, St 8, and Tai Yang? I learned > that using Du 24 and GB 13 has a similar effect as the four gates from > reading Maciocia, but it was never taught in school, which always > surprises me. I think that it is better for deficient people than the > Four Gates. So its a great treatment when you want to soothe the > liver without risk of depleting the qi. I use is when I need to clear > dampness in a yin deficient patient who can develop emotional > issues/insomnia from a damp clearing treatment. > > Laura > > --- In Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com>, > Mike Liaw > <mikeliaw wrote: > > > > Janis, > > > > I doubt what's passed down in your school has anything to do with > me, but it's interesting to hear it as I did introduce something like > this to ACCHS of Oakland, CA around year 2000-ish. The difference is, > I use up to 5 needles only; I do not needle the two Taiyangs, > bordering at Tou Wei (ST8). We call these Frontal-5, referring to the > 5 needles. > > > > I learned the Frontal 5 from one of my mentors, Dr. Andrew Wu of > Cupertino, CA in 1999 through private internship. Dr. Wu learned it > from Prof. Xue Jian Lin of Shanghai, who " discovred " these points (and > other scalp points) in the early 70's as an instructor of modern > anatomy. Prof. Lin and Dr. Wu use these to treat depression and > insomnia; I further expanded it to cover any unusual emotional/mood > swings. Dr. Lin and Dr. Wu both needle these points at 30~40-degree > angle; I have tended to move toward almost flat, or < 15 degrees. > These points have been a big winner for everyone of my insomnia and > depression patients. I rarely have to use all 5 though. In most cases > I need only the middle 3. > > > > When I was in internship in ACCHS, after taking care of several > insomnia patients with these points as the main ones, a few teachers > came watch how I did it and a couple of them asked me to treat their > sleeping challenges. Words spreaded quickly. Some students also > learned from me at the time. I told them I learned from Dr. Wu. So in > ACCHS, people passed this down as Dr. Wu's Frontal 5. Sometime later, > I saw some students (who I did not know before) using these points > with small angles as I do. I got curious and asked what these were; > they said it's Dr. Wu's Frontal 5, despite that Dr. Wu doesn't needle > with such small angles:-) So I have a personal experience of how an > oral transmission over time could evolve in only a few years. I won't > be surprised if there is an evolutionary story behind the 7 points in > your school. > > > > Which school did you attend, BTW? > > > > Mike L. > > > > Janis3934 <janis3934 wrote: > > Hi - In TCM school, the " 7 emotions " needle pattern, using > 7 needles > > from Tai yang to Tai yang at the hairline plus Yin tang (total 8 > > needles), was passed on from student to student. No instructor ever > > directly taught that pattern, in lecture or clinic, so I don't know > > where it came from. > > > > Does anyone have anymore information on the Seven Emotion needle > > pattern? I was considering using it as a way to introduce acupuncture > > at an open house, because it always gives such wonderful results and > > would be easy to needle in a group environment. I am thinking twice > > now because I can't find any documentation on it, and am concerned that > > all face points (with no intake) may be contraindicated. > > > > Any comments? > > > > I appreciate any feedback. > > > > Janis > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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