Male Menopause andropause

[Guest guest]

Friends,

I have a patient who saw a commercial on TV for " andropause "

and believes he has all of the symptoms.

I searched the archives and found this post (no replies)

of which I have included only the question from Attilio.

 

full post #1184

> Taken from http://www.bbc.co.uk/health/features/male_menopause.shtml

> I wonder if any practitioners in this group have noticed any signs of

> a male menopause amongst their patients. I know that i have difficult

> times each month, well so my wife says, so why not a menopause?

>

> Attilio

 

Would someone be kind enough to give discussion on the

TCM perspective. The symptoms are very similar to female

menopause (emotional swings, depression, hot flashes).

Seems to me there would be signs of a yang vacuity.

 

I appreciate any discussion on this subject.

 

Thank you.

Jean

[Guest guest]

Hi Jean. Menopause / Andropause as diagnoses are almost useless because they

are not based on a correct differential diagnoses, rather they are more than

half theoretical construct.

It would be better simply to do a CM differentiation. I bet that if you took

100 men who claimed to have andropause, you would find a certain proportion to

have liv qi constraint, another to show yin deficiency, a third yang deficiency

and so on. Treating them for their presenting signs and symptoms would relieve

each man's " andropause " .

CM differentiation is far superior (and this is no joke) to what western

medicine offers.

Hugo

 

 

 

Jean <greypal

Chinese Medicine

Saturday, 5 April, 2008 7:05:07 AM

Re: Male Menopause " andropause "

 

Friends,

I have a patient who saw a commercial on TV for " andropause "

and believes he has all of the symptoms.

I searched the archives and found this post (no replies)

of which I have included only the question from Attilio.

 

full post #1184

> Taken from http://www.bbc. co.uk/health/ features/ male_menopause. shtml

> I wonder if any practitioners in this group have noticed any signs of

> a male menopause amongst their patients. I know that i have difficult

> times each month, well so my wife says, so why not a menopause?

>

> Attilio

 

Would someone be kind enough to give discussion on the

TCM perspective. The symptoms are very similar to female

menopause (emotional swings, depression, hot flashes).

Seems to me there would be signs of a yang vacuity.

 

I appreciate any discussion on this subject.

 

Thank you.

Jean

 

 

 

 

 

_________

For Good helps you make a difference

 

http://uk.promotions./forgood/

 

 

[Guest guest]

hugo,

i agree with you wholeheartedly!

 

however, we do have scores of TCM internal medicine

texts to help quide us through the pathomechanisms,

patterns, and treatment principles of western diagnoses.

 

in the end, we do certainly treat what we see,

but understanding the root makes treatment more

effective, which is why i want to understand

this process in an aging male.

 

i hope this helps clarify the reason for my question.

jean

 

 

> Hi Jean. Menopause / Andropause as diagnoses are almost useless

because they are not based on a correct differential diagnoses,

rather they are more than half theoretical construct.

> It would be better simply to do a CM differentiation. I bet that

if you took 100 men who claimed to have andropause, you would find a

certain proportion to have liv qi constraint, another to show yin

deficiency, a third yang deficiency and so on. Treating them for

their presenting signs and symptoms would relieve each

man's " andropause " .

> CM differentiation is far superior (and this is no joke) to what

western medicine offers.

> Hugo

[Guest guest]

Hi jean,

but " andropause " is not a root of anything.

 

Hugo

 

 

Jean <greypal

Chinese Medicine

Saturday, 5 April, 2008 8:12:06 AM

Re: Male Menopause " andropause "

 

hugo,

i agree with you wholeheartedly!

 

however, we do have scores of TCM internal medicine

texts to help quide us through the pathomechanisms,

patterns, and treatment principles of western diagnoses.

 

in the end, we do certainly treat what we see,

but understanding the root makes treatment more

effective, which is why i want to understand

this process in an aging male.

 

i hope this helps clarify the reason for my question.

jean

 

> Hi Jean. Menopause / Andropause as diagnoses are almost useless

because they are not based on a correct differential diagnoses,

rather they are more than half theoretical construct.

> It would be better simply to do a CM differentiation. I bet that

if you took 100 men who claimed to have andropause, you would find a

certain proportion to have liv qi constraint, another to show yin

deficiency, a third yang deficiency and so on. Treating them for

their presenting signs and symptoms would relieve each

man's " andropause " .

> CM differentiation is far superior (and this is no joke) to what

western medicine offers.

> Hugo

 

 

 

 

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_________

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http://uk.promotions./forgood/

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi again, Jean,

To be more fair, I do think I understand what you are getting at, but I still

believe you may be misunderstanding something rather fundamental. At the same

time, the following post is directed generally to a broad audience, so it may

have little to do with you.

Menopause is exactly the cessation of the menses / production of eggs. Men

cannot have this problem, obviously. Therefore men do not have andropause.

Menopausal syndrome, as I hope we all know, can be ANYTHING, from hot flashes,

sweats and irritability which is YIN deficiency to fatigue, cold body and

depression, which is not yin deficiency, or it could be any other group of

symptoms which are bothersome and yet all of this is still called menopause

/menopausal syndrome. This is not diagnosis, this no more than sloppy thinking.

The syndrome is still called menopause because it is assumed that there is a

connection between the cessation of the menses and the syndrome.

However, if we honestly look at our data - our day-to-day survey of people - we

find that this " menopausal " syndrome is completely independent of the menses and

their cessation, since the various sign and symptom patterns occur in young,

middle-aged and older women, can occur, stop for a long time, and start again,

irrespective of " the menopause " . We also find the same pattern in men.

Therefore it is impossible to consider " the menopause " (or the fictitious

entity called " andropause " which simply doubles the mistake made re menopause

and its hypothetical syndrome) as a primary causative factor in this varied

syndrome that we see. At best it is correlated, meaning that there is a deeper

process which has a part in both the syndrome and " the menopause " . However, this

does not AT ALL imply causation (or importance).

 

Fortunately we have a saner way of classifying health and illness. When we ask

CM what is going on we get a clear answer.

In other words:

Exogenous factors:

The six climactic excesses

Endogenous factors:

The seven emotional excesses

Neither endogenous nor exogenous / Independent factors:

Diet

Physical overexertion

Sexual overexertion

 

(Perhaps the " root " you are looking for falls largely within the third category

under physical exertion under a sub-heading termed " aging " )

 

We do our assessment and we find, variously, that people supposedly suffering

from " menopausal syndrome " or " andropause " , are in fact suffering from yin

deficiency, yang deficiency, liver yang rising, qi deficiency, blood deficiency,

etc, and are suffering these things due to a combination of the above-listed

pathological factors. The same story can be told for everything western medicine

calls a " syndrome " , and even for most of what western medicine has a specific

disease entity for. In my experience there are few times when western diagnoses

are indispensable - as you can imagine it is for the most serious of diseases,

where a patient truly has a limited number of profound somatic wounds, where in

some ways and for the moment, true causative origin becomes irrelevant, and

symptomatic treatment becomes absolutely paramount.

 

3/4 of my patient referrals (therefore of my practice) are straight from

various MDs and specialists, and I have worked hard to get over the

seductiveness of the western diagnosis. Once I finally got over it, the western

diagnosis became a way for me to cover my ass, and had little to do with my

assessment or treatment.

 

If I was lost in a city and someone offered to help, but they seemed confused

about where I was going, and their directions, in the end, seemed to take me in

circles, I would doubt the way they were naming streets and directions. Because

honestly, if they understood it, they would have a cure for it (and sometimes

they do have a cure for it, and the part that they /can/ fix, they do

understand).

 

Thanks,

Hugo

 

 

Jean <greypal

Chinese Medicine

Saturday, 5 April, 2008 8:12:06 AM

Re: Male Menopause " andropause "

 

hugo,

i agree with you wholeheartedly!

 

however, we do have scores of TCM internal medicine

texts to help quide us through the pathomechanisms,

patterns, and treatment principles of western diagnoses.

 

in the end, we do certainly treat what we see,

but understanding the root makes treatment more

effective, which is why i want to understand

this process in an aging male.

 

i hope this helps clarify the reason for my question.

jean

 

> Hi Jean. Menopause / Andropause as diagnoses are almost useless

because they are not based on a correct differential diagnoses,

rather they are more than half theoretical construct.

> It would be better simply to do a CM differentiation. I bet that

if you took 100 men who claimed to have andropause, you would find a

certain proportion to have liv qi constraint, another to show yin

deficiency, a third yang deficiency and so on. Treating them for

their presenting signs and symptoms would relieve each

man's " andropause " .

> CM differentiation is far superior (and this is no joke) to what

western medicine offers.

> Hugo

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

I actually had this 'syndrome'. I am a 35yo male who has taken prednisone

for 20 years. Western docs would say I have adrenal exhaustion and low

testorsterone (adrenals make a certain percent of your testosterone). They

use blood levels of hormones like DHEA and sex hormones and then suggest

supplementing with which ever hormones your blood is deficient in. In TCM

I showed signs of all the things you mentioned - yin def. being the biggest,

yang def., liver yang rising, liver qi stagnation. I used herbs and AP for

these for 3 months and only noticed slight improvement. I finally took the

DHEA and testosterone and all symptoms stopped (hot flashes, fatique,

depression, no libido). To me, things get difficult when people take

medications that are so potent and so likely to produce another 'disease'.

I have been fighting prednisone my whole life.