'stabilize and bind' herb theory question

[Guest guest]

this is a question regarding the herbal tx principal 'stabilize and bind'.

i noticed in an herbal rx Qing Fei Yin to tx phH cough the inclusion of wu

wei zi to stabilize and bind the lu qi. i think i get the stabilize: cough

is rebellious LU qi, so TP is to stabilize or reverse the counterflowing LU

qi. the monograph describes binding the LU qi to prevent leakage and

indicates that the presenting sx include fatigue. ph H is an excess

condition, so it seems counter-intuitive to me that one would employ binding

while trying to expel ph. is it that it is presumed that with chronic cough

some degree of qi xu is present, so the LU qi needs to be secured? or is

there another explanation for employing this TP?

 

i look forward to receiving your feedback on this issue.

 

kb

 

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kbartlett

www.AcupunctureAsheville.com

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

HI Kath,

Well, this may be a time when Nigel's terminology might be more

comfortable...he translates " stabilize and bind " as " secure and

astringe "

 

I have heard of a number of formulas named " Qing Fei Yin " ...I'm not sure

which one you are looking at....but....

 

what I was taught

From classic formulas..

Wu Wei Zi is usually paired with Gan Jiang to treat coughing due to cold

dampness ala Xiao Qing Long Tang.

Its' moistening can moderate the very drying herbs that are often

included in these formulas.

It astringes the kidneys as well, aiding in the Lung~Kidney axis, where

the Lungs downbear and the Kidneys absorb or " grasp " the qi.

the astringing action on the lungs also protects them from the very

diffusing/dispersing action of other herbs usually in the formula when

applied to this kind of problem...for example, Ma Huang in XQLT

Kind of like the pairing of Bai Guo and Ma Huang in Ding Chuan Tang

 

Probably nothing new...hope it's useful perspective

 

Stephen Woodley LAc

 

--

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[Guest guest]

that's stephen, this helps. i'm sending the monograph of the rx as an adobe

attachment. will that make it through on this list? it is a ph h rx

containing sheng jiang rather then gan jiang:

 

k

 

 

COMPOSITION

*

 

Ku Xing Ren *(Semen Armeniacae Amarum) 3g

*

 

Bei Mu *(Bulbus Fritillariae) 3g

*

 

Wu Wei Zi *(Fructus Schisandrae Chinensis) 1.5g

*

 

Fu Ling *(Poria) 3g

*

 

Ju Hong *(Exocarpium Citri Reticulatae) 1.5g

*

 

Jie Geng *(Radix Platycodonis) 1.5g

*

 

Gan Cao *(Radix et Rhizoma Glycyrrhizae) 1.5g

 

This formula contains herbs to clear the Lung, dissolve phlegm, and moisten

the Lung. *Ku Xing Ren *(Semen

 

Armeniacae Amarum) causes Lung qi to descend, and is commonly used to treat

cough and dyspnea. *Bei Mu *(Bulbus

 

Fritillariae) clears fire, dissolves phlegm, and moistens the Lung. *Wu Wei

Zi *(Fructus Schisandrae Chinensis)

 

stabilizes and binds to preserve the Lung from further loss of qi. *Fu Ling

*(Poria) strengthens the Spleen and dissolves

 

dampness. *Ju Hong *(Exocarpium Citri Reticulatae) activates qi and relieves

stagnation. *Jie Geng *(Radix Platycodonis)

 

clears the Lung and eliminates phlegm. *Gan Cao *(Radix et Rhizoma

Glycyrrhizae) and *Sheng Jiang *(Rhizoma

 

Zingiberis Recens) harmonize the formula. In short, this formula treats mild

to moderate cases of cough caused by

 

damp and phlegm accumulation.

*

 

Qing Fei Yin (Clear the Lung Drink)

*

 

On Fri, Mar 28, 2008 at 4:38 PM, stephen woodley <learntcm

wrote:

 

> HI Kath,

> Well, this may be a time when Nigel's terminology might be more

> comfortable...he translates " stabilize and bind " as " secure and

> astringe "

>

> I have heard of a number of formulas named " Qing Fei Yin " ...I'm not sure

> which one you are looking at....but....

>

> what I was taught

> From classic formulas..

> Wu Wei Zi is usually paired with Gan Jiang to treat coughing due to cold

> dampness ala Xiao Qing Long Tang.

> Its' moistening can moderate the very drying herbs that are often

> included in these formulas.

> It astringes the kidneys as well, aiding in the Lung~Kidney axis, where

> the Lungs downbear and the Kidneys absorb or " grasp " the qi.

> the astringing action on the lungs also protects them from the very

> diffusing/dispersing action of other herbs usually in the formula when

> applied to this kind of problem...for example, Ma Huang in XQLT

> Kind of like the pairing of Bai Guo and Ma Huang in Ding Chuan Tang

>

> Probably nothing new...hope it's useful perspective

>

> Stephen Woodley LAc

>

> --

> http://www.fastmail.fm - Choose from over 50 domains or use your own

>

>

>

 

 

 

--

 

Oriental Medicine

Experienced, Dedicated, Effective

 

Flying Dragon Liniment:

Effective pain relief for muscles & joints

Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist

Available at Asheville Center for , or web order at:

https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1

 

 

Asheville Center For

70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two

Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777

kbartlett

www.AcupunctureAsheville.com

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

HI Kath

Is this some " pre-fab " formula? The doses sound so small if they are

actually measured in grams...or maybe I have become too heavy handed

 

So, maybe....

Xing Ren + Jie Geng ...diffuse and downbear lungs, transform phlegm and

stop cough

Jie Geng + Gan Cao ...work as a pair also to transform phlegm and stop

cough

Ju Hong + Fu Ling + Gan Cao are almost Er Chen Tang

 

Bei Mu...it's not clear if that's the cirrhosa (Chuan) or the thunbergii

(Zhe)...maybe the Chuan Bei Mu which is more moistening...

so Wu Wei Zi might be included to secure the lungs and help in the

moistening

 

Sheng Jiang still warms the stomach and some say that it helps with

phlegm as well...more moving than Gan Jiang...

but I always wonder how a dried " pre-fab " can have fresh ginger...

maybe some of those more knowledgable in the group can shed some light

on the subject

 

Stephen Woodley LAc

 

--

http://www.fastmail.fm - mmm... Fastmail...

[Guest guest]

driving home it dawned on me

bei mu is sweet (and bitter) and gan cao is sweet...while wu wei zi is

sour...flavor combination engenders yin fluids...part of the Tx

principle of the formula....just another thought

 

 

Stephen Woodley LAc

 

--

http://www.fastmail.fm - The professional email service

[Guest guest]

this came from john chen. i hadn't looked at the doses: agreed, it's looks

like giovanni dosages. i would definately up them substantially.

 

k

 

On Sat, Mar 29, 2008 at 7:44 PM, stephen woodley <learntcm

wrote:

 

> HI Kath

> Is this some " pre-fab " formula? The doses sound so small if they are

> actually measured in grams...or maybe I have become too heavy handed

>

> So, maybe....

> Xing Ren + Jie Geng ...diffuse and downbear lungs, transform phlegm and

> stop cough

> Jie Geng + Gan Cao ...work as a pair also to transform phlegm and stop

> cough

> Ju Hong + Fu Ling + Gan Cao are almost Er Chen Tang

>

> Bei Mu...it's not clear if that's the cirrhosa (Chuan) or the thunbergii

> (Zhe)...maybe the Chuan Bei Mu which is more moistening...

> so Wu Wei Zi might be included to secure the lungs and help in the

> moistening

>

> Sheng Jiang still warms the stomach and some say that it helps with

> phlegm as well...more moving than Gan Jiang...

> but I always wonder how a dried " pre-fab " can have fresh ginger...

> maybe some of those more knowledgable in the group can shed some light

> on the subject

>

> Stephen Woodley LAc

>

> --

> http://www.fastmail.fm - mmm... Fastmail...

>

>

>

 

 

 

--

 

Oriental Medicine

Experienced, Dedicated, Effective

 

Flying Dragon Liniment:

Effective pain relief for muscles & joints

Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist

Available at Asheville Center for , or web order at:

https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1

 

 

Asheville Center For

70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two

Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777

kbartlett

www.AcupunctureAsheville.com

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

thanks for you comments on this stephen, they are helpful and i appreciate

hearing your thoughts.

 

kath

 

On Sat, Mar 29, 2008 at 11:01 PM, stephen woodley <learntcm

wrote:

 

>

> driving home it dawned on me

> bei mu is sweet (and bitter) and gan cao is sweet...while wu wei zi is

> sour...flavor combination engenders yin fluids...part of the Tx

> principle of the formula....just another thought

>

> Stephen Woodley LAc

>

> --

> http://www.fastmail.fm - The professional email service

>

>

>

 

 

 

--

 

Oriental Medicine

Experienced, Dedicated, Effective

 

Flying Dragon Liniment:

Effective pain relief for muscles & joints

Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist

Available at Asheville Center for , or web order at:

https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1

 

 

Asheville Center For

70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two

Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777

kbartlett

www.AcupunctureAsheville.com