Guest guest Posted March 24, 2008 Report Share Posted March 24, 2008 Hi All, Direct (scarring / suppurative) moxibustion does harm (admittedly minor harm) in most cases. IMO, practitioners who to the ethic of " First Do No Harm " , must question the use direct moxibustion, or at least reserve its use to cases that have not responded to gentler methods. Are there any well designed trials that compared the clinical outcomes of indirect (non-scarring) versus direct moxibustion? Do those trials produce sound evidence of a significantly better outcome from scarring / suppurative moxibustion over the milder form? A of Medline search produced only 2 hits for the profile: moxibustion AND (indirect OR non-scarring) AND (direct OR scarring OR suppurative) AND ( " comparison of " OR compare*) As one might expect, those hits confirmed that moxibustion increases skin temperature and permeability. One study concluded: " Direct moxibustion with a traditional moxa stick may produce its potent therapeutic effects by thermal action, while traditional indirect moxibustion may act by producing modest thermal action and a sympathetic vibration at the skin surface. Non- traditional thermal materials and media may not be suitable substitutes for traditional materials. The data provide a scientific, biophysical rationale for traditional moxibustion " . NEITHER study compared the clinical outcomes of the two methods (direct versus indirect). Tatiana cited an article from Blue Poppy [ " Clinical Use of Suppurative Moxibustion " by Li Ming-zhi, Shang Hai Zhen Jiu Za Zhi (Shanghai Journal of Acupuncture & Moxibustion), #3, 1992, p. 33-34 www.bluepoppy.com/press/download/articles/acup_tuina_rr.cfm ], which said: " Following administration of suppurative moxibustion, one may often observe the immediate resolution of lingering illness. The *Zi Sheng Jing (The Classic of Nourishing Life)* states that, " All moxa should must produce a sore in order for the patient to recover. " As a result of this, it would seem that suppurative moxibustion has a distinctive therapeutic effect. Without citing evidence, http://www.jcrows.com/moxaarticles.html said: " Because of the difference of quality and processing of moxa between Japan and China, Japanese acupuncturists in general prefer direct moxibustion while Chinese therapists do indirect moxibustion, especially stick moxa. It requires a great deal of training for a therapist to master the direct moxibustion techniques, but it is much more effective than indirect moxibustion. " In a very detailed review, " MOXIBUSTION: Practical Considerations for Modern Use of an Ancient Technique " [ www.itmonline.org/arts/moxibustion ], Subhuti Dharmananda said: " [scarring / suppurative] moxa therapy is not discussed in any detail as part of Western acupuncture training because it is not allowable in Western practice. " He cites a Chinese study: " The authors suggested that indirect moxibustion was preferred by patients over acupuncture because of lack of pain & discomfort (needling in Chinese clinics is far more vigorous than in Western clinics). This is in contrast to the situation w direct moxibustion, which can be more painful than acupuncture; the painful nature of usual direct moxibustion being mentioned in several texts. " Subhuti concludes his review as follows: " It is difficult to know, based on the literature review, whether moxibustion is more effective than acupuncture or other stimulus methods administered for the same condition. In the absence of more detailed studies, moxa is applied primarily on the basis of the Chinese traditional medical descriptions, such as treating syndromes associated with cold, retention of food, spasms, immune deficiency, and local stagnation of fluids with formation of masses. Moxa may be utilized in some cases of heat syndromes. " So, taking the data above into consideration, and apart from local / state legislation on the topic, where does the profession stand on the justification (or otherwise) of using direct moxibustion in clinical practice? Best regards, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2008 Report Share Posted March 29, 2008 Dear , Your inquiry about direct moxibustion (DM) raised some excellent questions. Some thirty years ago I received training from Dr. James Tin Yau So, who was a real master of DM. I went on to use DM in my acupuncture practice, and the clinical results certainly appeared to justify its use. (For example, in one case, a chest wall tumor the size of half a grapefruit shrank away to nothing after several DM treatments.) My patients accepted DM quite well. DM was within my legal scope of practice, and was not prohibited by my state acupuncture association. Nonetheless, it became clear to me that DM would soon become a lost art in the US. This may be due in part to a widespread lack of good training, exclusion from coverage by professional liability insurance policies, and prohibition by integrative clinics. While far more harmful interventions are accepted in biomedicine, DM remains distanced due in some measure to its unfamiliarity. And a lack of controlled research certainly sustains that unfamiliarity. It is ironic to consider that DM may become so unfamiliar within our own profession as to be considered for banishment. Particularly in a profession that has not yet, at the national level, banned the re-use of acupuncture needles. There are traditional techniques of imbedding needles or metallic wires that also should be banned (as the fragments don't stay put, and can cause serious medical harm). The harm of DM scars is cosmetic, while the procedure itself is somewhat painful. DM has indications and contraindications. DM requires skill, and can be done well or poorly. Is it ethical to use clinical techniques that lack formal research justification? Sometimes, and yet not always, and certainly not without discretion. Clinical advancements often push the envelope of the known, and produce new questions for researchers. When I first began learning traditional Oriental medicine, there were very few good clinical studies of acupuncture available. But there was a tradition (or more correctly, multiple traditions) that pointed out when and how to proceed, and how not to proceed. Is it ethical to use a clinical technique without adequate training in it? Is it ethical to use a clinical technique without full informed consent by the patient? Is it ethical to use a clinical technique not within your legal scope of practice? Is it ethical to use a clinical technique prohibited by your professional peers? In ordinary circumstances, the answer is NO to each of these four questions. I would surmise that the mechanisms of action of DM are dissimilar to indirect moxa, and dissimilar to acupuncture. The body seems to respond disproportionately to a small third degree burn. The body also seems to respond disproportionately (though in different ways) to the stimulus of an acupuncture needle. Best regards, David Kailin, Ph.D., M.P.H., L.Ac. Author, Quality in Complementary & Alternative Medicine http://www.convergentmedical.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2008 Report Share Posted March 30, 2008 Dear , Your inquiry about direct moxibustion (DM) raised some excellent questions. Some thirty years ago I received training from Dr. James Tin Yau So, who was a real master of DM. I went on to use DM in my acupuncture practice, and the clinical results certainly appeared to justify its use. (For example, in one case, a chest wall tumor the size of half a grapefruit shrank away to nothing after several DM treatments.) My patients accepted DM quite well. DM was within my legal scope of practice, and was not prohibited by my state acupuncture association. Nonetheless, it became clear to me that DM would soon become a lost art in the US. This may be due in part to a widespread lack of good training, exclusion from coverage by professional liability insurance policies, and prohibition by integrative clinics. While far more harmful interventions are accepted in biomedicine, DM remains distanced due in some measure to its unfamiliarity. And a lack of controlled research certainly sustains that unfamiliarity. It is ironic to consider that DM may become so unfamiliar within our own profession as to be considered for banishment. Particularly in a profession that has not yet, at the national level, banned the re-use of acupuncture needles. There are traditional techniques of imbedding needles or metallic wires that also should be banned (as the fragments don't stay put, and can cause serious medical harm). The harm of DM scars is cosmetic, while the procedure itself is somewhat painful. DM has indications and contraindications. DM requires skill, and can be done well or poorly. Is it ethical to use clinical techniques that lack formal research justification? Sometimes, and yet not always, and certainly not without discretion. Clinical advancements often push the envelope of the known, and produce new questions for researchers. When I first began learning traditional Oriental medicine, there were very few good clinical studies of acupuncture available. But there was a tradition (or more correctly, multiple traditions) that pointed out when and how to proceed, and how not to proceed. Is it ethical to use a clinical technique without adequate training in it? Is it ethical to use a clinical technique without full informed consent by the patient? Is it ethical to use a clinical technique not within your legal scope of practice? Is it ethical to use a clinical technique prohibited by your professional peers? In ordinary circumstances, the answer is NO to each of these four questions. I would surmise that the mechanisms of action of DM are dissimilar to indirect moxa, and dissimilar to acupuncture. The body seems to respond disproportionately to a small third degree burn. The body also seems to respond disproportionately (though in different ways) to the stimulus of an acupuncture needle. Best regards, David Kailin, Ph.D., M.P.H., L.Ac. Author, Quality in Complementary & Alternative Medicine http://www.convergentmedical.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 1, 2008 Report Share Posted April 1, 2008 Well said, David, those that understand this technique should be allowed to practice it, I think bleeding tech. is more barbaric, and that has many applications in a modern clinic... Chinese Medicine , " convergentmedical " <kailin wrote: > > Dear , > Your inquiry about direct moxibustion (DM) raised some excellent > questions. > > Some thirty years ago I received training from Dr. James Tin Yau So, > who was a real master of DM. I went on to use DM in my acupuncture > practice, and the clinical results certainly appeared to justify its > use. (For example, in one case, a chest wall tumor the size of half a > grapefruit shrank away to nothing after several DM treatments.) My > patients accepted DM quite well. DM was within my legal scope of > practice, and was not prohibited by my state acupuncture association. > > Nonetheless, it became clear to me that DM would soon become a lost > art in the US. This may be due in part to a widespread lack of good > training, exclusion from coverage by professional liability insurance > policies, and prohibition by integrative clinics. While far more > harmful interventions are accepted in biomedicine, DM remains > distanced due in some measure to its unfamiliarity. And a lack of > controlled research certainly sustains that unfamiliarity. > > It is ironic to consider that DM may become so unfamiliar within our > own profession as to be considered for banishment. Particularly in a > profession that has not yet, at the national level, banned the re-use > of acupuncture needles. There are traditional techniques of imbedding > needles or metallic wires that also should be banned (as the fragments > don't stay put, and can cause serious medical harm). The harm of DM > scars is cosmetic, while the procedure itself is somewhat painful. DM > has indications and contraindications. DM requires skill, and can be > done well or poorly. > > Is it ethical to use clinical techniques that lack formal research > justification? Sometimes, and yet not always, and certainly not > without discretion. Clinical advancements often push the envelope of > the known, and produce new questions for researchers. When I first > began learning traditional Oriental medicine, there were very few good > clinical studies of acupuncture available. But there was a tradition > (or more correctly, multiple traditions) that pointed out when and how > to proceed, and how not to proceed. > > Is it ethical to use a clinical technique without adequate training in it? > Is it ethical to use a clinical technique without full informed > consent by the patient? > Is it ethical to use a clinical technique not within your legal scope > of practice? > Is it ethical to use a clinical technique prohibited by your > professional peers? > In ordinary circumstances, the answer is NO to each of these four > questions. > > I would surmise that the mechanisms of action of DM are dissimilar to > indirect moxa, and dissimilar to acupuncture. The body seems to > respond disproportionately to a small third degree burn. The body also > seems to respond disproportionately (though in different ways) to the > stimulus of an acupuncture needle. > > Best regards, > > David Kailin, Ph.D., M.P.H., L.Ac. > Author, Quality in Complementary & Alternative Medicine > http://www.convergentmedical.com > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 26, 2008 Report Share Posted April 26, 2008 Hi Phil, Sorry to come late to the discussion. I haven't been here in a long time. See below: , " " < wrote: > Direct (scarring / suppurative) moxibustion does harm (admittedly minor harm) in most cases. > > IMO, practitioners who to the ethic of " First Do No Harm " , must > question the use direct moxibustion, or at least reserve its use to cases that > have not responded to gentler methods. If the amount of harm caused by direct moxa was considered too excessive to be ethical, I am afraid Western medicine would be out of business. Could they give an injection or draw blood without causing harm? (Hollow needles cut, unlike acupuncture needles, and not every blood draw or injection is necessary.) Could they burn off a wart? Could they perform an elective operation? Could an infant be circumsized? That certainly causes more harm than direct moxa, yet a lot of people have it done. So many treatments of Western medicine are un-gentle. Many have softer alternatives. Yet doctors and patients still choose them, with or without evidence. Harm and discomfort are not the same thing. Your body is amazing at healing itself. Sometimes you need to trigger its healing mechanism. Moxa can be like an alarm clock, waking up your immune system for example (studies show it greatly increases the WBC). Yet no one likes the alarm clock; it is more pleasant to stay asleep. As for the question of research... my personal opinion is that you cannot trust it anyway. How many drugs are researched and yet taken off the market for safety or lack of efficacy a few years later? Then, there are studies in Asian journals regarding moxibustion, but Western doctors don't trust them, and who has the money to design a decent study with a lot of patients in the US? I have not seen a study comparing the efficacy of direct to indirect moxa. I agree that would be interesting. However there is lots of research on moxa versus western meds in various conditions, moxa versus acupuncture, moxa versus TDP lamp, etc. There are also studies that show moxa tar and moxa smoke have certain effects. There are studies that show burning mugwort has different characteristics than burning tobacco or other things. I have a big stack of research... but I have more faith in the classics of our medicine than the research. Sun Simiao, Zhang Jiebin, and Yang Jizhou all discussed the importance of moxa sores. These guys are the rock stars of our medicine. Direct moxa was the norm for doctors since the beginning of time. Since Ge Hong, indirect moxa has also been used. The moxa roll was invented in the Ming dynasty, but at that time was reserved for certain specific conditions. It comes down to a question of dosage. If the dosage of moxibustion is insufficient, the treatment will not be very effective. Last weekend I went to a seminar in Berkeley on Japanese style direct moxibustion, taught by Junji Mizutani. It was fantastic! He almost always uses direct moxibustion, and does cause a minor burn, but it is almsot painless. You do not need to make a big sore to get results. You do not need to make a lot of pain. What you need is practice and skill. If you have confidence, most patients will accept it. Anyway, I will take a moment for a little shameless self-promotion. My book, Moxibustion: the Power of Mugwort Fire will be available in May from Blue Poppy. I translate the writings of three Ming dynasty doctors on moxibustion: Li Shizhen, Yang Jizhou, and Zhang Jiebin. I also discuss a lot of history and background. It des not include modern research... but it tells you what the rock stars of our medicine said 400 years ago. Phil, I hope you don't feel I am being argumentative. I am passionate, but you are welcome to disagree. I do not mean to challenge you, just to express a strong opinion. Lorraine Lorraine Wilcox Ph.D., L.Ac. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2008 Report Share Posted April 28, 2008 Lorraine Will your book cover any of Mizutani's teachings and techniques?-- Turiya Hill, L.Ac. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2008 Report Share Posted April 28, 2008 Hi Turiya, Not the first book because that was already at the printer before I took Mizutani Sensei's class. However, it will influence anything I write in the future. He seems to give this seminar periodically at different schools. If you have a chance, I highly recommend it. He lives in Vancouver Canada now. Lorraine Lorraine Wilcox Ph.D., L.Ac. , " turiyahill " <turiya wrote: > Will your book cover any of Mizutani's teachings and techniques?-- > > Turiya Hill, L.Ac. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2008 Report Share Posted April 28, 2008 Turiya, You can get Mizutani's moxibustion book and DVD at: http://najom.org/product.html I'm looking forward to Lorraine's book also. K. On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 10:45 AM, turiyahill <turiya wrote: > > > Lorraine > Will your book cover any of Mizutani's teachings and techniques?-- > > Turiya Hill, L.Ac. > > > -- aka Mu bong Lim Father of Bhakti The Four Reliances: Do not rely upon the individual, but rely upon the teaching. As far as teachings go, do not rely upon the words alone, but rely upon the meaning that underlies them. Regarding the meaning, do not rely upon the provisional meaning alone, but rely upon the definitive meaning. And regarding the definitive meaning, do not rely upon ordinary consciousness, but rely upon wisdom awareness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2008 Report Share Posted April 29, 2008 If you ever get the chance to take one of Mizutani's classes - I would highly recommend it. The DVD sounds like a good start, but it's helpful to feel what properly rolled moxa feels like. We covered direct moxa in school very briefly and were basically told that 'white people can't tolerate it and will sue you'. A Japanese style practitioner friend of mine dragged me to one of Mizutani's classes and there was a lot to learn. For instance, he told us that fair skinned people were generally harder to scar than those with dark skin (and you see it with black patients who tend to develop keloid scars more than white patients) - and following his techniques, there is a minimal amount of pain involved with rice-grain moxa. He was the first person who told us not to worry about doing the direct moxa on our patients. I don't understand his point selection system, but it's easy to use whatever system you like and apply the physical moxa techniques. Geoff , " " <johnkokko wrote: > > Turiya, > > You can get Mizutani's moxibustion book and DVD at: > > http://najom.org/product.html > > I'm looking forward to Lorraine's book also. > > K. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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