Guest guest Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 Emmanuel I had a different experience with Dr Kang. I suffered a disc herniation when i got out of ACTCM and saw a chiropractor which did a vigorous million $ role which resulted in me not being able to walk because of pain for almost 30 days. I had to go on all four to the bathroom. I was treated with acupuncture by various practitioner including Miriam Lee with very minor and temporary help. The chronic pain continued and i then travelled to china were i had some of the best tui na practitioners in the hospital work on me almost daily. While this got me through my CM training it did nothing to resolve the problem and i still had periods, even in china, when i had to see patients basically on all four limbs because i could not bare any weight. When i came back i saw Dr Kang who worked on me for about 1/2 an hour and again did nothing for my pain in the long run, i felt better for a few days. Lucky for me i met Dr Gracer at that time who did prolo therapy and for the first time in years i was able to not think about my pain all the time. Back pain is quite complicated and no-one has the answer at this point. I have patients that tell me all the time that after seeing me for one time they feel better than they have for years in-spite of all kinds of therapies and others that i just cant do anything for. Its all about the pathology and the patients systems. For example, if one has a disc fissure and tends to have a hyperactive immune response they can be shit out of luck and non of the therapies we are talking about would give them more than some palliative and temporary help. There is lots more we need to learn about the treatment of back and leg pain. 400 29th St. Suite 419 Oakland Ca 94609 alonmarcus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 Hey Alon, how many times did you see Dr. Kang? Did prolo fix your problem? Hugo alon marcus <alonmarcus Chinese Medicine Tuesday, 25 March, 2008 9:38:32 AM Re: Lumbar herniations Emmanuel I had a different experience with Dr Kang. I suffered a disc herniation when i got out of ACTCM and saw a chiropractor which did a vigorous million $ role which resulted in me not being able to walk because of pain for almost 30 days. I had to go on all four to the bathroom. I was treated with acupuncture by various practitioner including Miriam Lee with very minor and temporary help. The chronic pain continued and i then travelled to china were i had some of the best tui na practitioners in the hospital work on me almost daily. While this got me through my CM training it did nothing to resolve the problem and i still had periods, even in china, when i had to see patients basically on all four limbs because i could not bare any weight. When i came back i saw Dr Kang who worked on me for about 1/2 an hour and again did nothing for my pain in the long run, i felt better for a few days. Lucky for me i met Dr Gracer at that time who did prolo therapy and for the first time in years i was able to not think about my pain all the time. Back pain is quite complicated and .. <!-- #ygrp-mkp{ border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:14px 0px;padding:0px 14px;} #ygrp-mkp hr{ border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrp-mkp #hd{ color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:bold;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0px;} #ygrp-mkp #ads{ margin-bottom:10px;} #ygrp-mkp .ad{ padding:0 0;} #ygrp-mkp .ad a{ color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} --> <!-- #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc{ font-family:Arial;} #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc #hd{ margin:10px 0px;font-weight:bold;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;} #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc .ad{ margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;} --> <!-- #ygrp-mlmsg {font-size:13px;font-family:arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrp-mlmsg table {font-size:inherit;font:100%;} #ygrp-mlmsg select, input, textarea {font:99% arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrp-mlmsg pre, code {font:115% monospace;} #ygrp-mlmsg * {line-height:1.22em;} #ygrp-text{ font-family:Georgia; } #ygrp-text p{ margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrp-tpmsgs{ font-family:Arial; clear:both;} #ygrp-vitnav{ padding-top:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-size:77%;margin:0;} #ygrp-vitnav a{ padding:0 1px;} #ygrp-actbar{ clear:both;margin:25px 0;white-space:nowrap;color:#666;text-align:right;} #ygrp-actbar .left{ float:left;white-space:nowrap;} ..bld{font-weight:bold;} #ygrp-grft{ font-family:Verdana;font-size:77%;padding:15px 0;} #ygrp-ft{ font-family:verdana;font-size:77%;border-top:1px solid #666; padding:5px 0; } #ygrp-mlmsg #logo{ padding-bottom:10px;} #ygrp-reco { margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;} #ygrp-reco #reco-head { font-weight:bold;color:#ff7900;} #reco-grpname{ font-weight:bold;margin-top:10px;} #reco-category{ font-size:77%;} #reco-desc{ font-size:77%;} #ygrp-vital{ background-color:#e0ecee;margin-bottom:20px;padding:2px 0 8px 8px;} #ygrp-vital #vithd{ font-size:77%;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:bold;color:#333;text-transform:upp\ ercase;} #ygrp-vital ul{ padding:0;margin:2px 0;} #ygrp-vital ul li{ list-style-type:none;clear:both;border:1px solid #e0ecee; } #ygrp-vital ul li .ct{ font-weight:bold;color:#ff7900;float:right;width:2em;text-align:right;padding-ri\ ght:.5em;} #ygrp-vital ul li .cat{ font-weight:bold;} #ygrp-vital a{ text-decoration:none;} #ygrp-vital a:hover{ text-decoration:underline;} #ygrp-sponsor #hd{ color:#999;font-size:77%;} #ygrp-sponsor #ov{ padding:6px 13px;background-color:#e0ecee;margin-bottom:20px;} #ygrp-sponsor #ov ul{ padding:0 0 0 8px;margin:0;} #ygrp-sponsor #ov li{ list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;font-size:77%;} #ygrp-sponsor #ov li a{ text-decoration:none;font-size:130%;} #ygrp-sponsor #nc{ background-color:#eee;margin-bottom:20px;padding:0 8px;} #ygrp-sponsor .ad{ padding:8px 0;} #ygrp-sponsor .ad #hd1{ font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;color:#628c2a;font-size:100%;line-height:122%\ ;} #ygrp-sponsor .ad a{ text-decoration:none;} #ygrp-sponsor .ad a:hover{ text-decoration:underline;} #ygrp-sponsor .ad p{ margin:0;} o{font-size:0;} ..MsoNormal{ margin:0 0 0 0;} #ygrp-text tt{ font-size:120%;} blockquote{margin:0 0 0 4px;} ..replbq{margin:4;} --> ________ Sent from Mail. More Ways to Keep in Touch. http://uk.docs./nowyoucan.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 26, 2008 Report Share Posted March 26, 2008 When LingKu, DaBai, ZongBai, YaotongXue, SI3,4,5,6 LI5, SanCha plus anyother Balance Method approach like HT3-7 to KI10-3, every 2-3 days doesnt work, combination with Mesotherapy along the back generates long lasting pain control. Antonio Alfaro. Chinese Medicine , " Emmanuel Segmen " <mrsegmen wrote: > > Hi Phil, > > Your experience sounds a lot like mine. I had a broken T12 vertebra straight through the body of the vertebra and then had displacement of the disc below. Two years of WM pills did nothing, and I vetoed the idea of surgery. A year of chiropractic got it much better. But even chiropractic never resolved it for very long. Acupuncture with electro-stim did not help much either. > > A number of years later I saw Dr. Ping Qi Kang who at that time was new to San Francisco and on the faculty at American College of TCM. He attended Shanghai University of TCM but had already completed training in his family lineage in tui na before his university training and hospital work. I showed up to his office one day back on my hands and knees from pain, and he treated me from his tui na perspective. It was like a 1.5 hour wrestling match ... amazingly vigorous. I felt like he was chasing the qi like a mouse through a maze. That completed the resolution of my back problem. Coming off his table was like never having had a back problem, and I haven't had any issues in the twenty years since his treatment. The family trained practitioners can be quite effective. Dr. Kang noted that he could not have acquired anything like that from his university training. > > I'm intrigued to hear that family lineages in manipulation like that exist in Ireland. Your experience resonates with my own. > > Respectfully, > Emmanuel Segmen > -------------------- > Phil wrote: Hi > > There was a big study recently that looked at a large group over a long time and found back pain goes away on it's own after a while. Boy I am not being specific, maybe there is a research oriented type out there, Phil, etc. that knows the study. > > Anne > > Anne, I could not locate that reference in Medline. Have you the name of an > author, or of the hospital involved? > > Below are a few references to conservative treatment of herniated lumbar > discs. Interval from presentation to " going back to work " can vary widely. > > Before I started my acupuncture studies in 1973, I was bedridden for 5 > weeks wiath very bad sciatica due to two herniated discs - L4-5 and L5-S1. > The pain was awful and I had to crawl on hands and knees to toilet. > > My GP at the time (a friend from over the road) had me on painkillers (which > were ineffective). After 5 weeks, he gave me three choices: (a) surgery, (b) > traction and © " go down the country " . > > In Ireland, in the context of my case, that means " go to a bone- setter " . > These are spinal / bone manipulators who have no formal training but learn > their methods within the family. The trade / gift usually is passed from parent > to offspring (not always males). In the early 1970s, qualified chiropractors / > osteopaths were very rare in Ireland. [Today there are many of these]. > > I chose option ©. I hobbled in to the bone-setter bent over like an old > cripple and walked out 5 minutes later standing straight and able to kick up > to shoulder height with both legs. I was back at work next day. > > About 2 years later, the sciatica recurred (but was not as painful). This time, > I treated myself with acupuncture (mainly BL23 + BL40 + GB34) a few times > and was fine after a few days. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 26, 2008 Report Share Posted March 26, 2008 Emannuel, Is this the same Dr Kang who is also an herbalist?... A Naturals? I didn't know he did tuina too. Also, cupping with bleeding technique around L1, L 2 ... What has been the group's experience with this technique? K. On Mon, Mar 24, 2008 at 11:32 PM, Emmanuel Segmen <mrsegmen wrote: > Hi Phil, > > Your experience sounds a lot like mine. I had a broken T12 vertebra > straight through the body of the vertebra and then had displacement of the > disc below. Two years of WM pills did nothing, and I vetoed the idea of > surgery. A year of chiropractic got it much better. But even chiropractic > never resolved it for very long. Acupuncture with electro-stim did not help > much either. > > A number of years later I saw Dr. Ping Qi Kang who at that time was new to > San Francisco and on the faculty at American College of TCM. He attended > Shanghai University of TCM but had already completed training in his family > lineage in tui na before his university training and hospital work. I showed > up to his office one day back on my hands and knees from pain, and he > treated me from his tui na perspective. It was like a 1.5 hour wrestling > match ... amazingly vigorous. I felt like he was chasing the qi like a mouse > through a maze. That completed the resolution of my back problem. Coming off > his table was like never having had a back problem, and I haven't had any > issues in the twenty years since his treatment. The family trained > practitioners can be quite effective. Dr. Kang noted that he could not have > acquired anything like that from his university training. > > I'm intrigued to hear that family lineages in manipulation like that exist > in Ireland. Your experience resonates with my own. > > Respectfully, > Emmanuel Segmen > -------------------- > Phil wrote: Hi > > There was a big study recently that looked at a large group over a long > time and found back pain goes away on it's own after a while. Boy I am not > being specific, maybe there is a research oriented type out there, Phil, > etc. that knows the study. > > Anne > > Anne, I could not locate that reference in Medline. Have you the name of > an > author, or of the hospital involved? > > Below are a few references to conservative treatment of herniated lumbar > discs. Interval from presentation to " going back to work " can vary widely. > > > Before I started my acupuncture studies in 1973, I was bedridden for 5 > weeks wiath very bad sciatica due to two herniated discs - L4-5 and L5-S1. > > The pain was awful and I had to crawl on hands and knees to toilet. > > My GP at the time (a friend from over the road) had me on painkillers > (which > were ineffective). After 5 weeks, he gave me three choices: (a) surgery, > (b) > traction and © " go down the country " . > > In Ireland, in the context of my case, that means " go to a bone-setter " . > These are spinal / bone manipulators who have no formal training but learn > > their methods within the family. The trade / gift usually is passed from > parent > to offspring (not always males). In the early 1970s, qualified > chiropractors / > osteopaths were very rare in Ireland. [Today there are many of these]. > > I chose option ©. I hobbled in to the bone-setter bent over like an old > cripple and walked out 5 minutes later standing straight and able to kick > up > to shoulder height with both legs. I was back at work next day. > > About 2 years later, the sciatica recurred (but was not as painful). This > time, > I treated myself with acupuncture (mainly BL23 + BL40 + GB34) a few times > and was fine after a few days. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 26, 2008 Report Share Posted March 26, 2008 Hey Hugo I saw Dr Kang three times, only two for bodywork. Prolo resolved 90% of my problem and i am back doing aikido and taking falls Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 26, 2008 Report Share Posted March 26, 2008 Hi Alon, thanks, Hugo Alon Marcus <alonmarcus Chinese Medicine Wednesday, 26 March, 2008 10:55:27 AM Re: Lumbar herniations Hey Hugo I saw Dr Kang three times, only two for bodywork. Prolo resolved 90% of my problem and i am back doing aikido and taking falls www.integrativeheal thmedicine. com <!-- #ygrp-mkp{ border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:14px 0px;padding:0px 14px;} #ygrp-mkp hr{ border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrp-mkp #hd{ color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:bold;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0px;} #ygrp-mkp #ads{ margin-bottom:10px;} #ygrp-mkp .ad{ padding:0 0;} #ygrp-mkp .ad a{ color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} --> <!-- #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc{ font-family:Arial;} #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc #hd{ margin:10px 0px;font-weight:bold;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;} #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc .ad{ margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;} --> <!-- #ygrp-mlmsg {font-size:13px;font-family:arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrp-mlmsg table {font-size:inherit;font:100%;} #ygrp-mlmsg select, input, textarea {font:99% arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrp-mlmsg pre, code {font:115% monospace;} #ygrp-mlmsg * {line-height:1.22em;} #ygrp-text{ font-family:Georgia; } #ygrp-text p{ margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrp-tpmsgs{ font-family:Arial; clear:both;} #ygrp-vitnav{ padding-top:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-size:77%;margin:0;} #ygrp-vitnav a{ padding:0 1px;} #ygrp-actbar{ clear:both;margin:25px 0;white-space:nowrap;color:#666;text-align:right;} #ygrp-actbar .left{ float:left;white-space:nowrap;} ..bld{font-weight:bold;} #ygrp-grft{ font-family:Verdana;font-size:77%;padding:15px 0;} #ygrp-ft{ font-family:verdana;font-size:77%;border-top:1px solid #666; padding:5px 0; } #ygrp-mlmsg #logo{ padding-bottom:10px;} #ygrp-reco { margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;} #ygrp-reco #reco-head { font-weight:bold;color:#ff7900;} #reco-grpname{ font-weight:bold;margin-top:10px;} #reco-category{ font-size:77%;} #reco-desc{ font-size:77%;} #ygrp-vital{ background-color:#e0ecee;margin-bottom:20px;padding:2px 0 8px 8px;} #ygrp-vital #vithd{ font-size:77%;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:bold;color:#333;text-transform:upp\ ercase;} #ygrp-vital ul{ padding:0;margin:2px 0;} #ygrp-vital ul li{ list-style-type:none;clear:both;border:1px solid #e0ecee; } #ygrp-vital ul li .ct{ font-weight:bold;color:#ff7900;float:right;width:2em;text-align:right;padding-ri\ ght:.5em;} #ygrp-vital ul li .cat{ font-weight:bold;} #ygrp-vital a{ text-decoration:none;} #ygrp-vital a:hover{ text-decoration:underline;} #ygrp-sponsor #hd{ color:#999;font-size:77%;} #ygrp-sponsor #ov{ padding:6px 13px;background-color:#e0ecee;margin-bottom:20px;} #ygrp-sponsor #ov ul{ padding:0 0 0 8px;margin:0;} #ygrp-sponsor #ov li{ list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;font-size:77%;} #ygrp-sponsor #ov li a{ text-decoration:none;font-size:130%;} #ygrp-sponsor #nc{ background-color:#eee;margin-bottom:20px;padding:0 8px;} #ygrp-sponsor .ad{ padding:8px 0;} #ygrp-sponsor .ad #hd1{ font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;color:#628c2a;font-size:100%;line-height:122%\ ;} #ygrp-sponsor .ad a{ text-decoration:none;} #ygrp-sponsor .ad a:hover{ text-decoration:underline;} #ygrp-sponsor .ad p{ margin:0;} o{font-size:0;} ..MsoNormal{ margin:0 0 0 0;} #ygrp-text tt{ font-size:120%;} blockquote{margin:0 0 0 4px;} ..replbq{margin:4;} --> _________ Rise to the challenge for Sport Relief with For Good http://uk.promotions./forgood/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 26, 2008 Report Share Posted March 26, 2008 Thanks, Alon. All good points. Diagnosis matters as does finding the therapy that works to restore the specific homeostatic balance. I, for one, appreciate it when practitioners attempt diagnosis both before and after treatment. I like asking: where did we start, where did we get to, and what's the delta. Attempts to prescribe home care and life style adjustments/objectives also gets my vote. Respectfully, Emmanuel Segmen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2008 Report Share Posted March 27, 2008 Alon, I have to respectfully disagree with your presumptions, assumptions and conclusions regarding the treatment of Lumbar Disc Herniation by the method of " it will heal by itself " . This is a dangerously false assumption. I have 30 years clinical practice and thousands of disc cases which say otherwise, not to mention the 30,000 or so articles in the medical literature on the subject. This is a serious disease process which, if left alone (or improperly treated) can have serious consequences for patients. That being said, I agree with you that we, as Acupuncturists, must evaluate our ability to successfully treat patients with lumbar disc herniations. " First do no harm " is a sageful mantra here. If you don't know you can handle a case, send it to someone who can. I have yet to see any successful case fail to respond significantly within 3 weeks of treatment (unsuccessful ones will have usually been referred by then - well, 6 weeks at the latest!). If I find no significant or expected progress or regression in the case, I will immediately call for assistance in the form of a referral. Acupuncture can play a huge role in the successful treatment of disc herniation, if for no other role than adjunctive pain control. However, I have experienced dramatic tissue improvement with acupuncture and would never hesitate to employ it in disc herniation cases. By-the-way, the most dramatic improvement I have witnessed has been with cases referred in by medical doctors as " inoperable " and seemingly hopeless. I would also add that I have more tools at my disposal than needle acupuncture. I utilize physical medicine, exercise, acupuncture and herbal medicine in all disc cases. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2008 Report Share Posted March 27, 2008 Its not Lam Kang 400 29th St. Suite 419 Oakland Ca 94609 alonmarcus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2008 Report Share Posted March 27, 2008 Emmanual i cant agree more. 400 29th St. Suite 419 Oakland Ca 94609 alonmarcus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2008 Report Share Posted March 27, 2008 Bill I never stated that discs always heal themselves they do not. But without knowing details of each case one cannot make any statement. What i am saying is that without knowing t he natural course of disease we too easily make conclusions that maynot mean anything. 400 29th St. Suite 419 Oakland Ca 94609 alonmarcus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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