Guest guest Posted March 18, 2008 Report Share Posted March 18, 2008 Hi all, and I didn't mean to seem like I ignored you, Karen and RoseAnne! In fact, a few people brought up this point and I included it with Chris Macie's descriptive word " intentionality " . If I may throw my two cents in - what the both of you have brought up is perfectly valid and accurate, and can be discussed in terms of Qi Gong (energy cultivation). Transfer of environmental energy via the practitioner to the patient, or transfer of personal energy from the practitioner to the patient (and vice versa) can be accomplished a number of ways - no-contact qi gong, thru a needle, via compassionate words (or destructive words, for that matter - verbal death touch!) and so on. What I would ask about this, however, is how much is necessary? How much of an energy transfer is needed in order to get someone up to speed - a someone, in our example, who is truly depleted. Not stagnant, unbalanced or recently worn-out. We're talking about ingrained patterns of depletion. I propose that some of the effects you mentioned, Karen (kids draining you at 3pm), cannot be useful clinically, because containment of energy relies heavily on either a very healthy body or great capacity for mental/spiritual concentration. If a patient does not have either of these, they will simply be blown about every which way. So, for example, in your case, removing the children from your vicinity at 3pm will result in you having more energy, but will not result in any significant change in your clinical picture. At best, several of these influences together will help someone to achieve " baseline " efficiency, i.e. " finally things are calm " . Accumulation of energy is something further beyond this, in my opinion. For me, this brings up other issues of measurement. I've thought about taking a survey of practitioners to see where and how the delineations for ill / recovering / cured are set up by individual practitioners. I suspect that many practitioners may be calling " use of existing energy efficient (balanced) " -> " energy increased " . I'm not sure if that is correct. Thoughts? Hugo " kradams1 " <kradams1 Chinese Medicine Tuesday, 18 March, 2008 10:54:01 AM Re: Re: Re: Agree or Disagree? Thank you, RoseAnne. When I asked the question about where Qi comes from, it disappeared without a trace! I asked for a couple of reasons: first, state the obvious and make sure people are not assuming they know. Are we born with Qi? Do we supplement Qi? If we're born with it, where does that come from? Secondly, there are theories that we 'share' Qi. Julian Scott, peadiatric acupuncturist from Britain, talks about children getting Qi from there parents (thereby confirming my long-held belief that the little darlings drained my energy around 3 in the afternoon, because their's always seemed to rise in direct proportion to mine falling). What I believe he says is that the Qi of very young children is undeveloped, or immature, and they will access the Qi of their parents to sustain them. I've also noticed one of the benefits of community style acupuncture is a weaving of the Qi of group members - which supplements the treatment for the individuals. So, do we share Qi with others? Do people develop Qi deficiency because they are in situations where they are bolstering someone else's Qi? I've lots more questions along this line, but I'd really like to know where folks think Qi comes from. If my speculations are valid, that changes the treatment picture some... Karen Karen R Adams, Lic Ac, Dipl Ac 296 Avenue A Turners Falls, MA 01376 413.863.0088 RoseAnne Spradlin <ra6151 2008/03/18 Tue AM 10:33:13 CDT Re: Re: Agree or Disagree? Since I am a relatively new practitioner, I usually don't chime in on these kinds of discussions. But in your summary of people's responses to the question about treating Qi deficiency, I do feel something is being missed. That is, our bodies are not closed systems. I think we can receive 'Heavenly Qi' or 'Earth's Qi' through the skillful needling of a practitioner who is him/herself in touch with this Qi. At least I think I have experienced this as a patient. --RoseAnne On Mar 18, 2008, at 10:16 AM, Hugo Ramiro wrote: > Hi all, thank you everybody for your comments, it's been an > interesting conversation. > So far it seems that most agree that Qi cannot come from the > acupuncture itself and needs to be present somewhere in the body. > There also seems to be a general concensus that acupuncture can > treat qi deficiency via channel balancing. It was also pointed out > that a primary qi deficiency is very different from a secondary qi > deficiency, i.e. a " qi deficiency " caused by blood stagnation. > There are also interesting points about what exactly " deficient " > means, as well as the fact that many acupuncture points are > specifically listed as treating one type of deficiency or another. > A final issue of qi as intentionality or as physical modality was > mentioned. > > So my question now becomes: > How many of you are willing to treat your patient population with > acupuncture only? If you are not willing, what is it that herbs (to > put a fine point on the matter) bring to the table that acupuncture > does not? > > Aha, let's see what all you smarty-pants come up with this time! > > Hugo > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > Rise to the challenge for Sport Relief with For Good > > http://uk.promotion s./ forgood/ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 18, 2008 Report Share Posted March 18, 2008 Hi Mike, thanks for writing. Can you tell us what type of patient presents a challenge to the type of acupuncture you are describing? Thanks! Hugo Mike Liaw <mikeliaw Chinese Medicine Tuesday, 18 March, 2008 1:46:17 PM Re: Re: Re: Agree or Disagree? Thank you, RoseAnne, and Karen, for keep trying!! I haven't chimed in partly because of time, partly because the issue with practicing Qi was discussed long time ago in this forum but lead to somewhat unpleasant departure of some members, if my memory serves. Assuming we stick to Qi practice for the purpose of application and adminstration through acupuncture I will jump in. For the original survey, my response would be disagree. Several of my friends and myself explicitly " transmit Qi " or " allow Qi to flow " to patient and experiencing patient's Xie Qi (usually cold Qi) heading our direction through the our fingers.. Most patients can exerience " receiving " Qi and get " energized " often on ST36, for example, or experience warmth on R4, for example. This is done without thrusting or turning the needles and without the " intention " to move Qi among different channels or different points of the same channel. Where does Qi come from? To my understanding, Qi is in between substance(yin) and function(yang) ; it's the intermediate state between substance and function. It can be transmitted. Where do the practitioners who transmit Qi to patients get their Qi from? They get it either from their own body's Qi (transformed from substance) or from external objects, or, eventually, the universal soure of Qi. Mike L. kradams1 (AT) verizon (DOT) net wrote: Thank you, RoseAnne. When I asked the question about where Qi comes from, it disappeared without a trace! I asked for a couple of reasons: first, state the obvious and make sure people are not assuming they know. Are we born with Qi? Do we supplement Qi? If we're born with it, where does that come from? Secondly, there are theories that we 'share' Qi. Julian Scott, peadiatric acupuncturist from Britain, talks about children getting Qi from there parents (thereby confirming my long-held belief that the little darlings drained my energy around 3 in the afternoon, because their's always seemed to rise in direct proportion to mine falling). What I believe he says is that the Qi of very young children is undeveloped, or immature, and they will access the Qi of their parents to sustain them. I've also noticed one of the benefits of community style acupuncture is a weaving of the Qi of group members - which supplements the treatment for the individuals. So, do we share Qi with others? Do people develop Qi deficiency because they are in situations where they are bolstering someone else's Qi? I've lots more questions along this line, but I'd really like to know where folks think Qi comes from. If my speculations are valid, that changes the treatment picture some... Karen Karen R Adams, Lic Ac, Dipl Ac 296 Avenue A Turners Falls, MA 01376 413.863.0088 RoseAnne Spradlin <ra6151 2008/03/18 Tue AM 10:33:13 CDT Re: Re: Agree or Disagree? Since I am a relatively new practitioner, I usually don't chime in on these kinds of discussions. But in your summary of people's responses to the question about treating Qi deficiency, I do feel something is being missed. That is, our bodies are not closed systems. I think we can receive 'Heavenly Qi' or 'Earth's Qi' through the skillful needling of a practitioner who is him/herself in touch with this Qi. At least I think I have experienced this as a patient. --RoseAnne On Mar 18, 2008, at 10:16 AM, Hugo Ramiro wrote: > Hi all, thank you everybody for your comments, it's been an > interesting conversation. > So far it seems that most agree that Qi cannot come from the > acupuncture itself and needs to be present somewhere in the body. > There also seems to be a general concensus that acupuncture can > treat qi deficiency via channel balancing. It was also pointed out > that a primary qi deficiency is very different from a secondary qi > deficiency, i.e. a " qi deficiency " caused by blood stagnation. > There are also interesting points about what exactly " deficient " > means, as well as the fact that many acupuncture points are > specifically listed as treating one type of deficiency or another. > A final issue of qi as intentionality or as physical modality was > mentioned. > > So my question now becomes: > How many of you are willing to treat your patient population with > acupuncture only? If you are not willing, what is it that herbs (to > put a fine point on the matter) bring to the table that acupuncture > does not? > > Aha, let's see what all you smarty-pants come up with this time! > > Hugo > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > Rise to the challenge for Sport Relief with For Good > > http://uk.promotion s./ forgood/ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 18, 2008 Report Share Posted March 18, 2008 Hugo, It's the type that have very low energy, with both YinXu and YangXu. They either could drain one's energy quickly, if not carefully conducted, or would take a long time to see some progress. I had a pretty dreadful experience many years ago back when I was pretty naiive. (I am still naiive today, from some angles:-) A lot of energy was drained out of my body in a matter of seconds, and it took me several days to recover from it. Mike L. Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: Hi Mike, thanks for writing. Can you tell us what type of patient presents a challenge to the type of acupuncture you are describing? Thanks! Hugo Mike Liaw <mikeliaw Chinese Medicine Tuesday, 18 March, 2008 1:46:17 PM Re: Re: Re: Agree or Disagree? Thank you, RoseAnne, and Karen, for keep trying!! I haven't chimed in partly because of time, partly because the issue with practicing Qi was discussed long time ago in this forum but lead to somewhat unpleasant departure of some members, if my memory serves. Assuming we stick to Qi practice for the purpose of application and adminstration through acupuncture I will jump in. For the original survey, my response would be disagree. Several of my friends and myself explicitly " transmit Qi " or " allow Qi to flow " to patient and experiencing patient's Xie Qi (usually cold Qi) heading our direction through the our fingers.. Most patients can exerience " receiving " Qi and get " energized " often on ST36, for example, or experience warmth on R4, for example. This is done without thrusting or turning the needles and without the " intention " to move Qi among different channels or different points of the same channel. Where does Qi come from? To my understanding, Qi is in between substance(yin) and function(yang) ; it's the intermediate state between substance and function. It can be transmitted. Where do the practitioners who transmit Qi to patients get their Qi from? They get it either from their own body's Qi (transformed from substance) or from external objects, or, eventually, the universal soure of Qi. Mike L. kradams1 (AT) verizon (DOT) net wrote: Thank you, RoseAnne. When I asked the question about where Qi comes from, it disappeared without a trace! I asked for a couple of reasons: first, state the obvious and make sure people are not assuming they know. Are we born with Qi? Do we supplement Qi? If we're born with it, where does that come from? Secondly, there are theories that we 'share' Qi. Julian Scott, peadiatric acupuncturist from Britain, talks about children getting Qi from there parents (thereby confirming my long-held belief that the little darlings drained my energy around 3 in the afternoon, because their's always seemed to rise in direct proportion to mine falling). What I believe he says is that the Qi of very young children is undeveloped, or immature, and they will access the Qi of their parents to sustain them. I've also noticed one of the benefits of community style acupuncture is a weaving of the Qi of group members - which supplements the treatment for the individuals. So, do we share Qi with others? Do people develop Qi deficiency because they are in situations where they are bolstering someone else's Qi? I've lots more questions along this line, but I'd really like to know where folks think Qi comes from. If my speculations are valid, that changes the treatment picture some... Karen Karen R Adams, Lic Ac, Dipl Ac 296 Avenue A Turners Falls, MA 01376 413.863.0088 RoseAnne Spradlin <ra6151 2008/03/18 Tue AM 10:33:13 CDT Re: Re: Agree or Disagree? Since I am a relatively new practitioner, I usually don't chime in on these kinds of discussions. But in your summary of people's responses to the question about treating Qi deficiency, I do feel something is being missed. That is, our bodies are not closed systems. I think we can receive 'Heavenly Qi' or 'Earth's Qi' through the skillful needling of a practitioner who is him/herself in touch with this Qi. At least I think I have experienced this as a patient. --RoseAnne On Mar 18, 2008, at 10:16 AM, Hugo Ramiro wrote: > Hi all, thank you everybody for your comments, it's been an > interesting conversation. > So far it seems that most agree that Qi cannot come from the > acupuncture itself and needs to be present somewhere in the body. > There also seems to be a general concensus that acupuncture can > treat qi deficiency via channel balancing. It was also pointed out > that a primary qi deficiency is very different from a secondary qi > deficiency, i.e. a " qi deficiency " caused by blood stagnation. > There are also interesting points about what exactly " deficient " > means, as well as the fact that many acupuncture points are > specifically listed as treating one type of deficiency or another. > A final issue of qi as intentionality or as physical modality was > mentioned. > > So my question now becomes: > How many of you are willing to treat your patient population with > acupuncture only? If you are not willing, what is it that herbs (to > put a fine point on the matter) bring to the table that acupuncture > does not? > > Aha, let's see what all you smarty-pants come up with this time! > > Hugo > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > Rise to the challenge for Sport Relief with For Good > > http://uk.promotion s./ forgood/ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 18, 2008 Report Share Posted March 18, 2008 Thanks Mike. Would you think about suggesting herbs for this type of patient over acupuncture? Have you ever taken this type of patient to full or mostly full recovery using only acupuncture? Thanks again, Hugo Mike Liaw <mikeliaw Chinese Medicine Tuesday, 18 March, 2008 2:42:38 PM Re: Re: Re: Agree or Disagree? Hugo, It's the type that have very low energy, with both YinXu and YangXu. They either could drain one's energy quickly, if not carefully conducted, or would take a long time to see some progress. I had a pretty dreadful experience many years ago back when I was pretty naiive. (I am still naiive today, from some angles:-) A lot of energy was drained out of my body in a matter of seconds, and it took me several days to recover from it. Mike L. Hugo Ramiro <subincor (AT) (DOT) . com> wrote: Hi Mike, thanks for writing. Can you tell us what type of patient presents a challenge to the type of acupuncture you are describing? Thanks! Hugo Mike Liaw <mikeliaw (AT) (DOT) .com> Tuesday, 18 March, 2008 1:46:17 PM Re: Re: Re: Agree or Disagree? Thank you, RoseAnne, and Karen, for keep trying!! I haven't chimed in partly because of time, partly because the issue with practicing Qi was discussed long time ago in this forum but lead to somewhat unpleasant departure of some members, if my memory serves. Assuming we stick to Qi practice for the purpose of application and adminstration through acupuncture I will jump in. For the original survey, my response would be disagree. Several of my friends and myself explicitly " transmit Qi " or " allow Qi to flow " to patient and experiencing patient's Xie Qi (usually cold Qi) heading our direction through the our fingers.. Most patients can exerience " receiving " Qi and get " energized " often on ST36, for example, or experience warmth on R4, for example. This is done without thrusting or turning the needles and without the " intention " to move Qi among different channels or different points of the same channel. Where does Qi come from? To my understanding, Qi is in between substance(yin) and function(yang) ; it's the intermediate state between substance and function. It can be transmitted. Where do the practitioners who transmit Qi to patients get their Qi from? They get it either from their own body's Qi (transformed from substance) or from external objects, or, eventually, the universal soure of Qi. Mike L. kradams1 (AT) verizon (DOT) net wrote: Thank you, RoseAnne. When I asked the question about where Qi comes from, it disappeared without a trace! I asked for a couple of reasons: first, state the obvious and make sure people are not assuming they know. Are we born with Qi? Do we supplement Qi? If we're born with it, where does that come from? Secondly, there are theories that we 'share' Qi. Julian Scott, peadiatric acupuncturist from Britain, talks about children getting Qi from there parents (thereby confirming my long-held belief that the little darlings drained my energy around 3 in the afternoon, because their's always seemed to rise in direct proportion to mine falling). What I believe he says is that the Qi of very young children is undeveloped, or immature, and they will access the Qi of their parents to sustain them. I've also noticed one of the benefits of community style acupuncture is a weaving of the Qi of group members - which supplements the treatment for the individuals. So, do we share Qi with others? Do people develop Qi deficiency because they are in situations where they are bolstering someone else's Qi? I've lots more questions along this line, but I'd really like to know where folks think Qi comes from. If my speculations are valid, that changes the treatment picture some.... Karen Karen R Adams, Lic Ac, Dipl Ac 296 Avenue A Turners Falls, MA 01376 413.863.0088 RoseAnne Spradlin <ra6151 2008/03/18 Tue AM 10:33:13 CDT Re: Re: Agree or Disagree? Since I am a relatively new practitioner, I usually don't chime in on these kinds of discussions. But in your summary of people's responses to the question about treating Qi deficiency, I do feel something is being missed. That is, our bodies are not closed systems. I think we can receive 'Heavenly Qi' or 'Earth's Qi' through the skillful needling of a practitioner who is him/herself in touch with this Qi. At least I think I have experienced this as a patient. --RoseAnne On Mar 18, 2008, at 10:16 AM, Hugo Ramiro wrote: > Hi all, thank you everybody for your comments, it's been an > interesting conversation. > So far it seems that most agree that Qi cannot come from the > acupuncture itself and needs to be present somewhere in the body. > There also seems to be a general concensus that acupuncture can > treat qi deficiency via channel balancing. It was also pointed out > that a primary qi deficiency is very different from a secondary qi > deficiency, i.e. a " qi deficiency " caused by blood stagnation. > There are also interesting points about what exactly " deficient " > means, as well as the fact that many acupuncture points are > specifically listed as treating one type of deficiency or another. > A final issue of qi as intentionality or as physical modality was > mentioned. > > So my question now becomes: > How many of you are willing to treat your patient population with > acupuncture only? If you are not willing, what is it that herbs (to > put a fine point on the matter) bring to the table that acupuncture > does not? > > Aha, let's see what all you smarty-pants come up with this time! > > Hugo > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > Rise to the challenge for Sport Relief with For Good > > http://uk.promotion s./ forgood/ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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