Acupuncture in Qi Deficiency?

March 14, 2008

Hi Hugo, & All,

Hugo Ramiro wrote:

> I am curious as to how many of you would agree or disgree on the

> following statement: Acupuncture is not indicated in cases of qi

> deficiency. Hugo

Some colleagues say that acupuncture can only MOVE Qi, but cannot be

used to Tone / Reinforce it in Qi Deficiency.

They say that herbal medicine and nutritional intervention are better

than acupuncture to Augment Qi in Qixu. They say the same about other

Fundamental Substances (Xue, Ying, Jing, Jin, etc).

I disagree because many acupoints are listed to Augment / Reinforce /

Nourish or Tonify Qi / Yuanqi / Weiqi, etc. For example, LI04, LI10,

SP06, BL24, BL26, CV04, CV06, ST30 and ST36 are supposed to Tonify Qi

in Qi Deficiency.

Also, acupoint moxibustion can be used in Qixu / Yangxu, especially

in cases that present with Coldness.

Best regards,

March 14, 2008

I'm wondering how much of " qi qu " looks symptomatically like that because of

" qi and blood stagnation " .

In other words, move the qi and blood, and the patient gains more energy and

renews function of bladder, intestinal tone, respiratory ease etc. (KD qi

xu, SP qi xu, Lung qi xu)

Moxa warms the channels and the skin, muscle sinew channels thereby moving

qi and blood. However, ai ye/ ai rong has a very minimal function in

actually tonifying qi and/or blood.

There is the radiant heat theory of moxa therapy, which you can just get

from a red bulb heat lamp.

Then there is the infra-red theory of moxa therapy, because of the high

burning temperature that ai ye/ ai rong has? This brings it into more of

an infra-red frequency, as I've been told.

Any research on this?

Then there is the entirely different theory (animistic, shamanistic) that ai

ye / ai rong chases away demons and xie qi. Cross culturally, this is held

in many northern geographic traditions about artemesia.

But if it's chasing away xie qi, then how does that tonify the body?

Needles are yin (metal), Moxa therapy is yang (fire).

Can you really tonify qi and blood by needling ST 36?

Isn't there a lot of research out on using MRIs to track the bio-electrical

stimulation that is produced by stimulation of zu san li?

If we can raise T-cell counts and stimulate hemoglobin production through

these points, can that be considered tonification of the body?

A teacher of mine said that needles stimulate the movement of qi and blood.

But alone, can do very little tonification. As someone else wrote, you need

to add some heat (moxa etc). But, I'm thinking that all of this is actually

just getting qi and blood to the desired locations to supply oxygen,

hormones (97% of the body's communication network according to Candace Pert)

and the like to under-served tissue. When the tissue or the corresponding

organs get movement of qi and blood, this can be called " tonification " ,

since whatever was vacuous before becomes replete.

Seems like herbs, food therapy and respiration (gu qi and qing qi) are the

actual tonification methods of bringing something into the body that wasn't

there before. Needling and moxa stimulate movement of qi and blood to

tissue to create a homeostatic relationship between functioning parts.

Thoughts?

K.

On Fri, Mar 14, 2008 at 5:01 AM, < wrote:

> Hi Hugo, & All,

>

> Hugo Ramiro wrote:

> > I am curious as to how many of you would agree or disgree on the

> > following statement: Acupuncture is not indicated in cases of qi

> > deficiency. Hugo

>

> Some colleagues say that acupuncture can only MOVE Qi, but cannot be

> used to Tone / Reinforce it in Qi Deficiency.

>

> They say that herbal medicine and nutritional intervention are better

> than acupuncture to Augment Qi in Qixu. They say the same about other

> Fundamental Substances (Xue, Ying, Jing, Jin, etc).

>

> I disagree because many acupoints are listed to Augment / Reinforce /

> Nourish or Tonify Qi / Yuanqi / Weiqi, etc. For example, LI04, LI10,

> SP06, BL24, BL26, CV04, CV06, ST30 and ST36 are supposed to Tonify Qi

> in Qi Deficiency.

>

> Also, acupoint moxibustion can be used in Qixu / Yangxu, especially

> in cases that present with Coldness.

>

> Best regards,

>

--

aka Mu bong Lim

Father of Bhakti

The Four Reliances:

Do not rely upon the individual, but rely upon the teaching.

As far as teachings go, do not rely upon the words alone, but rely upon the

meaning that underlies them.

Regarding the meaning, do not rely upon the provisional meaning alone, but

rely upon the definitive meaning.

And regarding the definitive meaning, do not rely upon ordinary

consciousness, but rely upon wisdom awareness.

March 14, 2008

Hi all,

To my understanding, acupuncture is used to correct the flow of Qi.

If Qi is so deficient ( the flow is too weak and the blood is empty ),

acupuncture alone is not a sufficient treatment.

Tonify means strengthen. How do we strengthen the Qi or Blood? If

the Qi is moving slowly, we can speed it up. For instance, as in a

traffic jammed all vehicles are slowing down or stopping by a stalling

car or an accident. After this scene is cleared up, all traffic again

are up in their speed ( tonifying Qi ). We can see that the moving of

traffic is Qi, and the vehicles are blood cells, hormones, nutrients

and chemical fluids.

Because of the obstruction or the resistance, certain nutrients or

blood cells cannot reach certain areas or tissues ( deficient state ),

we now clear it up and the flow will go through ( tonifying ).

But if the illness arises from chronic with deficient in both Qi

and blood............ Look like we have no cars on freeway, just

pedestrians and bicyclists, I think we should have some other forms of

transportation instead of pushing them to move faster.

In chronic illness with robust figure and mentality, acupuncture is

required with great skills if we are not using herbs, but with weak

figure and mentality herbs should be used alone or together with

acupuncture.

Summary, We should not boast to ourselves, acupuncture is a

panacea, we can cure all diseases with it, but humility is the best

policy.

We can use herbs and acupuncture in any case as needed. However,

there are times we can use only one method depends on the demand of

our patients ( for they hate herbs or scare of needles ).

March 14, 2008

Hello Dr.

It seems the Nei Jing uses the words Reinforce and Reduce, when

Reinforcing is necessary IMHO it is about moving Qi or other vital

substances from the body to the area you are targeting, this is why

we stratefgically selects channels that guide the body's subtance to

the area. On one level it is about getting the organ to function

correctly and when it does this is called tonifying, but looking at

it another way it is really just guiding Qi or Vital Substances to

the desired area to enhance its normal functioning.

From my understanding, sedation is often moving Qi away from one

area to another area. So when we do a Guest-Host treatment, we

reduce one channel, we move Qi out of one channel and send it to

another channel and we tonify one channel, by this it means moving

Qi into the targeted channel. So this is more about moving energy to

areas of the body by strategically combining channels to enhance the

effectiveness.

For example, if the diagnosis is Spleen Qi Xu, we sedate or reduce

the Stomach, what we are doing is moving Qi from the Stomach to the

Spleen and we tonify the Spleen meaning we move Qi into the Spleen.

The terms should be viewed in a broad way.

Tonifying on one level is to get Qi to circulate properly and assist

in helping the organs to function properly, working more

effectively, this can be viewed as tonification.

regards,

david

--- In

Chinese Medicine , " dr_namnguyen58 "

<dr_namnguyen58 wrote:

>

> Hi all,

> To my understanding, acupuncture is used to correct the flow of

Qi.

> If Qi is so deficient ( the flow is too weak and the blood is

empty ),

> acupuncture alone is not a sufficient treatment.

> Tonify means strengthen. How do we strengthen the Qi or Blood?

If

> the Qi is moving slowly, we can speed it up. For instance, as in a

> traffic jammed all vehicles are slowing down or stopping by a

stalling

> car or an accident. After this scene is cleared up, all traffic

again

> are up in their speed ( tonifying Qi ). We can see that the moving

of

> traffic is Qi, and the vehicles are blood cells, hormones,

nutrients

> and chemical fluids.

> Because of the obstruction or the resistance, certain nutrients

or

> blood cells cannot reach certain areas or tissues ( deficient

state ),

> we now clear it up and the flow will go through ( tonifying ).

> But if the illness arises from chronic with deficient in both Qi

> and blood............ Look like we have no cars on freeway, just

> pedestrians and bicyclists, I think we should have some other

forms of

> transportation instead of pushing them to move faster.

> In chronic illness with robust figure and mentality,

acupuncture is

> required with great skills if we are not using herbs, but with weak

> figure and mentality herbs should be used alone or together with

> acupuncture.

> Summary, We should not boast to ourselves, acupuncture is a

> panacea, we can cure all diseases with it, but humility is the best

> policy.

> We can use herbs and acupuncture in any case as needed. However,

> there are times we can use only one method depends on the demand of

> our patients ( for they hate herbs or scare of needles ).

>

March 14, 2008

what is Qi? how does a person 'get' Qi? what is the process of 'getting' and

therefore augmenting Qi? so far we've heard about working with the Qi that is

already present. Seems like Qi deficiency means a need to acquire more Qi?

I'm fascinated with this discussion as I've certainly had patients with very

low, flat pulses - empty, soft, low aplitude, and trying to build them up seems

to take a long, long time, altho ultimately it happens. so now I'm asking

myself: how did that work?

karen

Karen R Adams

Lic Ac (MA), Dipl Ac, BA(Hons), BS

296 Avenue A

Turners Falls, MA 01376

413.863.0088