Guest guest Posted March 13, 2008 Report Share Posted March 13, 2008 I am curious as to how many of you would agree or disgree on the following statement: Acupuncture is not indicated in cases of qi deficiency. Hugo ________ Sent from Mail. The World's Favourite Email http://uk.docs./nowyoucan.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 2008 Report Share Posted March 14, 2008 Depends upon the patient's constitution..... - Hugo Ramiro Chinese Medicine Thursday, March 13, 2008 3:17 PM Agree or Disagree? I am curious as to how many of you would agree or disgree on the following statement: Acupuncture is not indicated in cases of qi deficiency. Hugo ________ Sent from Mail. The World's Favourite Email http://uk.docs./nowyoucan.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 2008 Report Share Posted March 14, 2008 Hugo Ramiro wrote: > > I am curious as to how many of you would agree or disgree on the > following statement: > > Acupuncture is not indicated in cases of qi deficiency. > > Hugo > > ________ > Sent from Mail. > The World's Favourite Email http://uk.docs./nowyoucan.html > <http://uk.docs./nowyoucan.html> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 2008 Report Share Posted March 14, 2008 Disagree. Alexander Zide L.Ac. Hugo Ramiro <subincor Chinese Medicine Thursday, March 13, 2008 6:17:57 PM Agree or Disagree? I am curious as to how many of you would agree or disgree on the following statement: Acupuncture is not indicated in cases of qi deficiency. Hugo ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ Sent from Mail. The World's Favourite Email http://uk.docs. / nowyoucan. html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 2008 Report Share Posted March 15, 2008 > > Acupuncture is not indicated in cases of qi deficiency. > > Hugo > I mostly disagree. Most people I know suffer from some sort of qi deficiency, yet could benefit from acupuncture. Often deficiencies arise from stagnation or constraint. The constraint must be relieved in order for proper function to be reestablished. Acupuncture is great for this. Once proper function is reestablished, then the body can regenerate vacuous or deficient qi. Zach Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 16, 2008 Report Share Posted March 16, 2008 Qi is in abundance, so it cannot be deficient. But it can be restricted, stagnated or misdirected. I believe that the term Qi Deficiency is misleading both to TCM practitioners, patients and Qi Gong practitioners. I prefer to use the term Qi Xu (For which there is no direct singular translation) It is similar to the Taoist analogy of a river (Like all analogies, not perfect!) If the river was flowing restrictively, or stagnating as in an 'Eddy', or blocked and misdirected, you would not say the river was deficient. So when we feel a deficient `Qi' pulse we are making a comparison using all our other diagnostic skills of the patient, and our experience of other patients. But we are diagnosing the organ, substance or meridian. So then we chose the most appropriate treatment. David Lees Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: > > I am curious as to how many of you would agree or disgree on the following statement: > > Acupuncture is not indicated in cases of qi deficiency. > > Hugo > > > > > > ________ > Sent from Mail. > The World's Favourite Email http://uk.docs./nowyoucan.html > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 17, 2008 Report Share Posted March 17, 2008 IMO it depends. Sometimes when the Qi is too weak, I believe that acupuncture is actually contraindicated because it can weaken the Qi further. However this is rarely the case with most patients as humans often have Qi in reserve that sometimes can't be accessed without help. Other than starvation, major illness or major metabolic disorders where the Qi is truly depleted acupuncture can draw Qi from the Liver blood and Kidneys the aid in healing elsewhere in the body. Chris Vedeler L.Ac. www.oasisacupuncture.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 18, 2008 Report Share Posted March 18, 2008 Hi all, thank you everybody for your comments, it's been an interesting conversation. So far it seems that most agree that Qi cannot come from the acupuncture itself and needs to be present somewhere in the body. There also seems to be a general concensus that acupuncture can treat qi deficiency via channel balancing. It was also pointed out that a primary qi deficiency is very different from a secondary qi deficiency, i.e. a " qi deficiency " caused by blood stagnation. There are also interesting points about what exactly " deficient " means, as well as the fact that many acupuncture points are specifically listed as treating one type of deficiency or another. A final issue of qi as intentionality or as physical modality was mentioned. So my question now becomes: How many of you are willing to treat your patient population with acupuncture only? If you are not willing, what is it that herbs (to put a fine point on the matter) bring to the table that acupuncture does not? Aha, let's see what all you smarty-pants come up with this time! Hugo _________ Rise to the challenge for Sport Relief with For Good http://uk.promotions./forgood/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 18, 2008 Report Share Posted March 18, 2008 Since I am a relatively new practitioner, I usually don't chime in on these kinds of discussions. But in your summary of people's responses to the question about treating Qi deficiency, I do feel something is being missed. That is, our bodies are not closed systems. I think we can receive 'Heavenly Qi' or 'Earth's Qi' through the skillful needling of a practitioner who is him/herself in touch with this Qi. At least I think I have experienced this as a patient. --RoseAnne On Mar 18, 2008, at 10:16 AM, Hugo Ramiro wrote: > Hi all, thank you everybody for your comments, it's been an > interesting conversation. > So far it seems that most agree that Qi cannot come from the > acupuncture itself and needs to be present somewhere in the body. > There also seems to be a general concensus that acupuncture can > treat qi deficiency via channel balancing. It was also pointed out > that a primary qi deficiency is very different from a secondary qi > deficiency, i.e. a " qi deficiency " caused by blood stagnation. > There are also interesting points about what exactly " deficient " > means, as well as the fact that many acupuncture points are > specifically listed as treating one type of deficiency or another. > A final issue of qi as intentionality or as physical modality was > mentioned. > > So my question now becomes: > How many of you are willing to treat your patient population with > acupuncture only? If you are not willing, what is it that herbs (to > put a fine point on the matter) bring to the table that acupuncture > does not? > > Aha, let's see what all you smarty-pants come up with this time! > > Hugo > > > _________ > Rise to the challenge for Sport Relief with For Good > > http://uk.promotions./forgood/ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 18, 2008 Report Share Posted March 18, 2008 Hi David, thanks for joining in... What you say makes sense, however, I'd like it if you could explain a little more. Are you saying that qi deficiency is only ever a result of blockage/stagnation/restriction? Hugo davidjameslees <davidjameslees Chinese Medicine Sunday, 16 March, 2008 5:21:51 PM Re: Agree or Disagree? Qi is in abundance, so it cannot be deficient. But it can be restricted, stagnated or misdirected. I believe that the term Qi Deficiency is misleading both to TCM practitioners, patients and Qi Gong practitioners. I prefer to use the term Qi Xu (For which there is no direct singular translation) It is similar to the Taoist analogy of a river (Like all analogies, not perfect!) If the river was flowing restrictively, or stagnating as in an 'Eddy', or blocked and misdirected, you would not say the river was deficient. So when we feel a deficient `Qi' pulse we are making a comparison using all our other diagnostic skills of the patient, and our experience of other patients. But we are diagnosing the organ, substance or meridian. So then we chose the most appropriate treatment. David Lees Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor@.. .> wrote: > > I am curious as to how many of you would agree or disgree on the following statement: > > Acupuncture is not indicated in cases of qi deficiency. > > Hugo > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > Sent from Mail. > The World's Favourite Email http://uk.docs. / nowyoucan. html > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2008 Report Share Posted March 19, 2008 I think that one of hte important things to remember here is that none of us practice " just acupuncture " . WHile we may not all be herbalists, we do all discuss diet, exercise, life style changes etc. and this is a part of our treatment. SO, the patient who is coming in for acupuncture, simply by making that choice has created a change in themselves andis going to be open to more change. As we know, there are points (Zu San Li/ST 36) being the best example that are said to supplement the qi. It is not that they are able to create " new " qi, it is more that they are able to encourage the sp/st to more effectively and efficiently manage the food and drink that is brought into the body in order to make post-heaven qi. So, when you ask can acupuncture supplement qi - yes, it can - by supporting change and by improving the digestive processes. Do you need herbs? Well, I personally find them very useful to help the acupncture process along - there are some things that acupuncture itself does not do well - nourish yin/fluids, transform phlegm etc., but the use of some sort of internal treatment (diet, herbs) can be very beneficial and can improve the effects of the acupuncture. It also works the other way - the acupuncture can enhance the effects of the herbs. I think that the important thing about using acupuncture effectively lies, as Bob Flaws keeps saying, first in creating a correct diagnosis and then in creating a correct point prescription that will actually treat the root condition and is not just focused on the branch. Creating a point prescription requires nearly as much thought as creating an prescription - we just get better at it much faster. My 2 cents. Marnae Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2008 Report Share Posted March 19, 2008 Hello Hugo, Thanks for the question and the chance to clarify. My proposition is that Qi is in abundance so therefore cannot be deficient. The term `Qi deficiency' is a paradox. Which leads to many misunderstanding to practitioners, patients and students. When we as practitioners make a diagnosis of Qi deficiency we are using the label Qi only as a gauge to understand where the underlying problems are. Back to my earlier analogy… J If our river has formed an `eddy' which was stagnating and causing problems, the correct treatment would be to clear the obstruction that was causing this. We would not say the river was deficient, or try and move the water without moving the obstruction.. So the label `Qi Deficiency' is a sign post to a: Stagnation, restriction, blockage, misunderstanding, avoidance any in-balance of a organ, emotion, substance, meridian. We then chose the appropriate treatment plan to deal with the underlying problem. When dealt with the Qi will `flow' appropriately. The treatment could be acupuncture, herbs, talking therapy or a mixture of all. David Lees Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: > > Hi David, thanks for joining in... > What you say makes sense, however, I'd like it if you could explain a little more. > Are you saying that qi deficiency is only ever a result of blockage/stagnation/restriction? > > Hugo > > > davidjameslees <davidjameslees > Chinese Medicine > Sunday, 16 March, 2008 5:21:51 PM > Re: Agree or Disagree? > > Qi is in abundance, so it cannot be deficient. > > But it can be restricted, stagnated or misdirected. I believe that > the term Qi Deficiency is misleading both to TCM practitioners, > patients and Qi Gong practitioners. > > I prefer to use the term Qi Xu (For which there is no direct singular > translation) > > It is similar to the Taoist analogy of a river (Like all analogies, > not perfect!) If the river was flowing restrictively, or stagnating > as in an 'Eddy', or blocked and misdirected, you would not say the > river was deficient. > > So when we feel a deficient `Qi' pulse we are making a comparison > using all our other diagnostic skills of the patient, and our > experience of other patients. > > But we are diagnosing the organ, substance or meridian. > > So then we chose the most appropriate treatment. > > David Lees > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , Hugo Ramiro > <subincor@ .> wrote: > > > > I am curious as to how many of you would agree or disgree on the > following statement: > > > > Acupuncture is not indicated in cases of qi deficiency. > > > > Hugo > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > > Sent from Mail. > > The World's Favourite Email http://uk.docs. / nowyoucan. html > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2008 Report Share Posted March 20, 2008 Hi David, thanks for writing back. So let me jump all the way into this one: What do you call it when someone has lost a lot of blood, pale/ashen, clammy sweat, shortness of breath and so on? I believe I have some familiarity with the concept you describe - it is prevalent in qi gong and ccm circles - however, I have trouble seeing a desert and not feeling that it really is deficient in water, although there might be water " available " all around as well as in the sky (and underground!). Am I doing your point justice or am I still missing it? Please give it another shot if you can see my mistake! I must say though, given a large enough time frame, your point makes total sense. All treatment is about unblocking and achieving freeflow, in the end. Hugo davidjameslees <davidjameslees Chinese Medicine Wednesday, 19 March, 2008 5:00:57 PM Re: Agree or Disagree? Hello Hugo, Thanks for the question and the chance to clarify. My proposition is that Qi is in abundance so therefore cannot be deficient. The term `Qi deficiency' is a paradox. Which leads to many misunderstanding to practitioners, patients and students. When we as practitioners make a diagnosis of Qi deficiency we are using the label Qi only as a gauge to understand where the underlying problems are. Back to my earlier analogy… J If our river has formed an `eddy' which was stagnating and causing problems, the correct treatment would be to clear the obstruction that was causing this. We would not say the river was deficient, or try and move the water without moving the obstruction. . So the label `Qi Deficiency' is a sign post to a: Stagnation, restriction, blockage, misunderstanding, avoidance any in-balance of a organ, emotion, substance, meridian. We then chose the appropriate treatment plan to deal with the underlying problem. When dealt with the Qi will `flow' appropriately. The treatment could be acupuncture, herbs, talking therapy or a mixture of all. David Lees Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor@.. .> wrote: > > Hi David, thanks for joining in... > What you say makes sense, however, I'd like it if you could explain a little more. > Are you saying that qi deficiency is only ever a result of blockage/stagnation /restriction? > > Hugo > > > davidjameslees <davidjameslees@ ...> > > Sunday, 16 March, 2008 5:21:51 PM > Re: Agree or Disagree? > > Qi is in abundance, so it cannot be deficient. > > But it can be restricted, stagnated or misdirected. I believe that > the term Qi Deficiency is misleading both to TCM practitioners, > patients and Qi Gong practitioners. > > I prefer to use the term Qi Xu (For which there is no direct singular > translation) > > It is similar to the Taoist analogy of a river (Like all analogies, > not perfect!) If the river was flowing restrictively, or stagnating > as in an 'Eddy', or blocked and misdirected, you would not say the > river was deficient. > > So when we feel a deficient `Qi' pulse we are making a comparison > using all our other diagnostic skills of the patient, and our > experience of other patients. > > But we are diagnosing the organ, substance or meridian. > > So then we chose the most appropriate treatment. > > David Lees > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , Hugo Ramiro > <subincor@ .> wrote: > > > > I am curious as to how many of you would agree or disgree on the > following statement: > > > > Acupuncture is not indicated in cases of qi deficiency. > > > > Hugo > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > > Sent from Mail. > > The World's Favourite Email http://uk.docs. / nowyoucan. html > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2008 Report Share Posted March 20, 2008 Hi Hugo, Thanks for taking the time to reply, I will have another shot, if you don't mind. I would need to know more details to diagnose the symptoms you describe, could be many things such as; Local trauma, abnormally heavy menstruation, etc… You would need to diagnose and understand what led to the loss of blood, but the underlying problem certainly would not be `Qi Deficiency' . The deficiency in the 'flow' of Qi would result from the loss of blood, that understanding would help in the diagnoses the problem. That understanding would assist in the treatment of the underlying condition to aid the patient speedy recovery. As I said previously, analogies do not always work well, because you could feel a desert to be an excess of heat, or a desert to be appropriate for the universal balance. As you observe there is water all around, not deficient at all. You are correct Hugo, I do come from a Taoist, TCM, Qi Gong prospective, so we have to be careful that we are not bogged down in semantics, but I think it's an important and enjoyable point to discuss. Many thanks, David Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: > > Hi David, thanks for writing back. So let me jump all the way into this one: > What do you call it when someone has lost a lot of blood, pale/ashen, clammy sweat, shortness of breath and so on? > I believe I have some familiarity with the concept you describe - it is prevalent in qi gong and ccm circles - however, I have trouble seeing a desert and not feeling that it really is deficient in water, although there might be water " available " all around as well as in the sky (and underground!). Am I doing your point justice or am I still missing it? Please give it another shot if you can see my mistake! > I must say though, given a large enough time frame, your point makes total sense. All treatment is about unblocking and achieving freeflow, in the end. > > Hugo > > > davidjameslees <davidjameslees > Chinese Medicine > Wednesday, 19 March, 2008 5:00:57 PM > Re: Agree or Disagree? > > Hello Hugo, > > Thanks for the question and the chance to clarify. > > My proposition is that Qi is in abundance so therefore cannot be > deficient. > > The term `Qi deficiency' is a paradox. > > Which leads to many misunderstanding to practitioners, patients and > students. > > When we as practitioners make a diagnosis of Qi deficiency we are > using the label Qi only as a gauge to understand where the underlying > problems are. > > Back to my earlier analogy… J If our river has formed an `eddy' > which was stagnating and causing problems, the correct treatment > would be to clear the obstruction that was causing this. > > We would not say the river was deficient, or try and move the water > without moving the obstruction. . > > So the label `Qi Deficiency' is a sign post to a: Stagnation, > restriction, blockage, misunderstanding, avoidance any in-balance of > a organ, emotion, substance, meridian. > > We then chose the appropriate treatment plan to deal with the > underlying problem. > > When dealt with the Qi will `flow' appropriately. > > The treatment could be acupuncture, herbs, talking therapy or a > mixture of all. > > David Lees > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , Hugo Ramiro > <subincor@ .> wrote: > > > > Hi David, thanks for joining in... > > What you say makes sense, however, I'd like it if you could > explain a little more. > > Are you saying that qi deficiency is only ever a result of > blockage/stagnation /restriction? > > > > Hugo > > > > > > davidjameslees <davidjameslees@ ...> > > > > Sunday, 16 March, 2008 5:21:51 PM > > Re: Agree or Disagree? > > > > Qi is in abundance, so it cannot be deficient. > > > > But it can be restricted, stagnated or misdirected. I believe that > > the term Qi Deficiency is misleading both to TCM practitioners, > > patients and Qi Gong practitioners. > > > > I prefer to use the term Qi Xu (For which there is no direct > singular > > translation) > > > > It is similar to the Taoist analogy of a river (Like all analogies, > > not perfect!) If the river was flowing restrictively, or stagnating > > as in an 'Eddy', or blocked and misdirected, you would not say the > > river was deficient. > > > > So when we feel a deficient `Qi' pulse we are making a comparison > > using all our other diagnostic skills of the patient, and our > > experience of other patients. > > > > But we are diagnosing the organ, substance or meridian. > > > > So then we chose the most appropriate treatment. > > > > David Lees > > > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , Hugo Ramiro > > <subincor@ .> wrote: > > > > > > I am curious as to how many of you would agree or disgree on the > > following statement: > > > > > > Acupuncture is not indicated in cases of qi deficiency. > > > > > > Hugo > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ > _________ _ > > > Sent from Mail. > > > The World's Favourite Email http://uk.docs. / nowyoucan. > html > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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