difficult case: chronic low back pain

[Guest guest]

Greetings friends:

 

I am a new practitioner facing that moment where my immediate success

with a patient is dwindling, and I fear that she might be about to

give up on TCM (or at least me) if we can't get her pain down soon.

Any advice you can give me will be deeply appreciated. Here's the scoop:

 

31 y.o. female, first time with acupuncture.

injured back by lifting 11 years ago while pregnant, off work for

several weeks - described as acute lumbar sprain with sharp shooting

pain down both legs at time of injury. symptoms relieved but

occasional sciatica symptoms since, esp left side, following UB line -

sometimes down thigh stopping at UB40, sometimes all the way down to

lateral ankle.

 

March 2007, surgery on L foot due to " nerve pain " . Surgery botched,

redone successfully, but during healing from foot surgery, wearing

boot/cast for many months, back pain returned worse than before and

has not let up since. MRI report shows " bulging discs " at L5-S1,

" stenosis " and " degenerative " , etc. (Has not been open to seeing a

chiropractor, but I am working on her on this.)

 

Prior to treatment, patient reported pain scale at 8, 9, and 10 on any

given day. Pn exacerbated by sitting, driving, stress - alleviated by

laying on R side, warmth

 

M.D.s have her on the following meds: (!!!)

MScontin - 60mg

Dilautid - 8mg

Paxil - 10mg

Cymbalta - 60mg

Lyrica - 75 mg

 

They simply keep giving her more meds since nothing seems to be

working. Needless to say, she is experiencing severe fatigue,

spontaneous sweats, esp at night, gas, bloating, constipation,

dizziness, etc. And, most troublesome, severe depression. Her mother

is the one who called me since, after 2 unsuccessful nerve blocks,

patient spoke of overdosing on meds and simply giving up since there

seemed to be no end in sight.

 

Tongue: pale body, red sli swollen edges, Sticky white coat at root

and sides along deep center crack that does not reach tip, and thick,

dark sublingual veins.

 

Pulses: Very thin, weak and deep at all positions, esp KID, both

sides, and sli wiry at LIV. The pulse is not rapid - if anything, a

bit on the slow side.

 

Patient hasn't had a period for 4 years due to Depo Provera shots.

 

What I have done so far:

Since this was her first time with acupuncture and she presented with

anxiety, deep depression and stress, my first goal was to calm her

shen, move stagnate qi and blood and tonify KID. She has been coming

to treatments 2x per week, but can only afford to come once a week

starting this week. I have seen her for 7 treatments so far. We were

able to bring her pain level down to level 5 or 6 for most of the

treatments, but due to some more family stress (she has 3 children and

is leaving her partner who is fed up with her being in pain), her pain

has, not surprisingly, shot back up to 7-8, with the shooting pains

returning (we had been able to get rid of those after the first

treatment).

 

Besides typical sciatica protocols, including electro and warm needle,

I have given her Spring Wind Herbal Compresses (however, she hasn't

been able to find time to actually do them...). She is now open to

taking a formula, but with all her meds, she is understandably wary.

It is unlikely that I will be able to get her to prepare and take a

raw decoction. She runs warm due to the opiates, but prior to meds

she was always cold. Pain does not seem to be associated with recent

bouts of cold damp weather (I'm writing from California where it's 65'

today...).

 

Any tricks up your sleeves you'd be willing to share with me? I fully

realize that under some circumstances, if a patient isn't willing to

do her part, there's not much more we can do. But since I am new and

have so far had great " beginner's luck " with our amazing medicine on

all my other patients, I am hoping it's just something obvious I'm

missing.

 

Thank you for your time.

 

wishing you health and abundance,

Julia Carpenter, LAc

Berkeley, CA

[Guest guest]

Hi,

 

Chinese Medicine , " juliacarp "

<julia.carpenter wrote:

 

> 31 y.o. female, first time with acupuncture.

> injured back by lifting 11 years ago while pregnant, off work for

> several weeks - described as acute lumbar sprain with sharp shooting

> pain down both legs at time of injury. symptoms relieved but

> occasional sciatica symptoms since, esp left side, following UB line -

> sometimes down thigh stopping at UB40, sometimes all the way down to

> lateral ankle.

 

 

Have you done Akabane test and a treatment according to the test results.

 

Togan

[Guest guest]

Hi Julia,

Sorry to hear that you are having so many problems. From the

information you have provided I would suspect some Kid yang

deficiency and I know that you have already tried the usual protocols.

Given the state of the pulses I would try a Ren/Du block treatment,

recheck the stste of the pulses then build Metal with Bl 13, Li 4 and

Lu 9 tonified. If this improves the pulses I would then re-apply a

Kid Yang deficiency treatment with moxa on Bl23. To reduce some of

the symptoms try strong stimulation on Yaotongxue (N-UE-19) at the

point where the fourth and fifth metacarpul bones meet. I hope this

is helpful.

Kind regards

Michael

www.acupuncture4pain.co.uk

 

Chinese Medicine , " juliacarp "

<julia.carpenter wrote:

>

> Greetings friends:

>

> I am a new practitioner facing that moment where my immediate

success

> with a patient is dwindling, and I fear that she might be about to

> give up on TCM (or at least me) if we can't get her pain down soon.

> Any advice you can give me will be deeply appreciated. Here's the

scoop:

>

> 31 y.o. female, first time with acupuncture.

> injured back by lifting 11 years ago while pregnant, off work for

> several weeks - described as acute lumbar sprain with sharp shooting

> pain down both legs at time of injury. symptoms relieved but

> occasional sciatica symptoms since, esp left side, following UB

line -

> sometimes down thigh stopping at UB40, sometimes all the way down to

> lateral ankle.

>

> March 2007, surgery on L foot due to " nerve pain " . Surgery botched,

> redone successfully, but during healing from foot surgery, wearing

> boot/cast for many months, back pain returned worse than before and

> has not let up since. MRI report shows " bulging discs " at L5-S1,

> " stenosis " and " degenerative " , etc. (Has not been open to seeing a

> chiropractor, but I am working on her on this.)

>

> Prior to treatment, patient reported pain scale at 8, 9, and 10 on

any

> given day. Pn exacerbated by sitting, driving, stress - alleviated

by

> laying on R side, warmth

>

> M.D.s have her on the following meds: (!!!)

> MScontin - 60mg

> Dilautid - 8mg

> Paxil - 10mg

> Cymbalta - 60mg

> Lyrica - 75 mg

>

> They simply keep giving her more meds since nothing seems to be

> working. Needless to say, she is experiencing severe fatigue,

> spontaneous sweats, esp at night, gas, bloating, constipation,

> dizziness, etc. And, most troublesome, severe depression. Her

mother

> is the one who called me since, after 2 unsuccessful nerve blocks,

> patient spoke of overdosing on meds and simply giving up since there

> seemed to be no end in sight.

>

> Tongue: pale body, red sli swollen edges, Sticky white coat at root

> and sides along deep center crack that does not reach tip, and

thick,

> dark sublingual veins.

>

> Pulses: Very thin, weak and deep at all positions, esp KID, both

> sides, and sli wiry at LIV. The pulse is not rapid - if anything, a

> bit on the slow side.

>

> Patient hasn't had a period for 4 years due to Depo Provera shots.

>

> What I have done so far:

> Since this was her first time with acupuncture and she presented

with

> anxiety, deep depression and stress, my first goal was to calm her

> shen, move stagnate qi and blood and tonify KID. She has been coming

> to treatments 2x per week, but can only afford to come once a week

> starting this week. I have seen her for 7 treatments so far. We

were

> able to bring her pain level down to level 5 or 6 for most of the

> treatments, but due to some more family stress (she has 3 children

and

> is leaving her partner who is fed up with her being in pain), her

pain

> has, not surprisingly, shot back up to 7-8, with the shooting pains

> returning (we had been able to get rid of those after the first

> treatment).

>

> Besides typical sciatica protocols, including electro and warm

needle,

> I have given her Spring Wind Herbal Compresses (however, she hasn't

> been able to find time to actually do them...). She is now open to

> taking a formula, but with all her meds, she is understandably wary.

> It is unlikely that I will be able to get her to prepare and take a

> raw decoction. She runs warm due to the opiates, but prior to meds

> she was always cold. Pain does not seem to be associated with

recent

> bouts of cold damp weather (I'm writing from California where it's

65'

> today...).

>

> Any tricks up your sleeves you'd be willing to share with me? I

fully

> realize that under some circumstances, if a patient isn't willing to

> do her part, there's not much more we can do. But since I am new

and

> have so far had great " beginner's luck " with our amazing medicine on

> all my other patients, I am hoping it's just something obvious I'm

> missing.

>

> Thank you for your time.

>

> wishing you health and abundance,

> Julia Carpenter, LAc

> Berkeley, CA

>

[Guest guest]

try needling the huatos L2-L5 plus ce liao, ub 23, 25, liv 2 (emp pt for

lumbar pain, makes sense with her T) lately i throw in gb 25/st28, si

3 (all tx lumbar pain). check periformis pt/gb 30 for tenderness. i'm

guessing you are working the ub channel: ub10/60, 40. if she has stabbing

pain, start her with shen tong zhu yu tang, then you'll need to tx d-bi with

int heat. bensky has a group of 10 formula's for painful obstruction i

found on the web. i like the results with these formulas.

 

hope this helps,

 

kath

 

On Feb 12, 2008 6:34 AM, Michael A Gorman <diagnosis

wrote:

 

> Hi Julia,

> Sorry to hear that you are having so many problems. From the

> information you have provided I would suspect some Kid yang

> deficiency and I know that you have already tried the usual protocols.

> Given the state of the pulses I would try a Ren/Du block treatment,

> recheck the stste of the pulses then build Metal with Bl 13, Li 4 and

> Lu 9 tonified. If this improves the pulses I would then re-apply a

> Kid Yang deficiency treatment with moxa on Bl23. To reduce some of

> the symptoms try strong stimulation on Yaotongxue (N-UE-19) at the

> point where the fourth and fifth metacarpul bones meet. I hope this

> is helpful.

> Kind regards

> Michael

> www.acupuncture4pain.co.uk

>

> --- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>,

> " juliacarp "

> <julia.carpenter wrote:

> >

> > Greetings friends:

> >

> > I am a new practitioner facing that moment where my immediate

> success

> > with a patient is dwindling, and I fear that she might be about to

> > give up on TCM (or at least me) if we can't get her pain down soon.

> > Any advice you can give me will be deeply appreciated. Here's the

> scoop:

> >

> > 31 y.o. female, first time with acupuncture.

> > injured back by lifting 11 years ago while pregnant, off work for

> > several weeks - described as acute lumbar sprain with sharp shooting

> > pain down both legs at time of injury. symptoms relieved but

> > occasional sciatica symptoms since, esp left side, following UB

> line -

> > sometimes down thigh stopping at UB40, sometimes all the way down to

> > lateral ankle.

> >

> > March 2007, surgery on L foot due to " nerve pain " . Surgery botched,

> > redone successfully, but during healing from foot surgery, wearing

> > boot/cast for many months, back pain returned worse than before and

> > has not let up since. MRI report shows " bulging discs " at L5-S1,

> > " stenosis " and " degenerative " , etc. (Has not been open to seeing a

> > chiropractor, but I am working on her on this.)

> >

> > Prior to treatment, patient reported pain scale at 8, 9, and 10 on

> any

> > given day. Pn exacerbated by sitting, driving, stress - alleviated

> by

> > laying on R side, warmth

> >

> > M.D.s have her on the following meds: (!!!)

> > MScontin - 60mg

> > Dilautid - 8mg

> > Paxil - 10mg

> > Cymbalta - 60mg

> > Lyrica - 75 mg

> >

> > They simply keep giving her more meds since nothing seems to be

> > working. Needless to say, she is experiencing severe fatigue,

> > spontaneous sweats, esp at night, gas, bloating, constipation,

> > dizziness, etc. And, most troublesome, severe depression. Her

> mother

> > is the one who called me since, after 2 unsuccessful nerve blocks,

> > patient spoke of overdosing on meds and simply giving up since there

> > seemed to be no end in sight.

> >

> > Tongue: pale body, red sli swollen edges, Sticky white coat at root

> > and sides along deep center crack that does not reach tip, and

> thick,

> > dark sublingual veins.

> >

> > Pulses: Very thin, weak and deep at all positions, esp KID, both

> > sides, and sli wiry at LIV. The pulse is not rapid - if anything, a

> > bit on the slow side.

> >

> > Patient hasn't had a period for 4 years due to Depo Provera shots.

> >

> > What I have done so far:

> > Since this was her first time with acupuncture and she presented

> with

> > anxiety, deep depression and stress, my first goal was to calm her

> > shen, move stagnate qi and blood and tonify KID. She has been coming

> > to treatments 2x per week, but can only afford to come once a week

> > starting this week. I have seen her for 7 treatments so far. We

> were

> > able to bring her pain level down to level 5 or 6 for most of the

> > treatments, but due to some more family stress (she has 3 children

> and

> > is leaving her partner who is fed up with her being in pain), her

> pain

> > has, not surprisingly, shot back up to 7-8, with the shooting pains

> > returning (we had been able to get rid of those after the first

> > treatment).

> >

> > Besides typical sciatica protocols, including electro and warm

> needle,

> > I have given her Spring Wind Herbal Compresses (however, she hasn't

> > been able to find time to actually do them...). She is now open to

> > taking a formula, but with all her meds, she is understandably wary.

> > It is unlikely that I will be able to get her to prepare and take a

> > raw decoction. She runs warm due to the opiates, but prior to meds

> > she was always cold. Pain does not seem to be associated with

> recent

> > bouts of cold damp weather (I'm writing from California where it's

> 65'

> > today...).

> >

> > Any tricks up your sleeves you'd be willing to share with me? I

> fully

> > realize that under some circumstances, if a patient isn't willing to

> > do her part, there's not much more we can do. But since I am new

> and

> > have so far had great " beginner's luck " with our amazing medicine on

> > all my other patients, I am hoping it's just something obvious I'm

> > missing.

> >

> > Thank you for your time.

> >

> > wishing you health and abundance,

> > Julia Carpenter, LAc

> > Berkeley, CA

> >

>

>

>

 

 

 

--

Kath Bartlett, LAc, MS, BA UCLA

Oriental Medicine

Experienced, Dedicated, Effective

 

Flying Dragon Liniment:

Effective pain relief for muscles & joints

Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist

Available at Asheville Center for , or web order at:

https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1

 

 

Asheville Center For

70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two

Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777

kbartlett

www.AcupunctureAsheville.com

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I can tell you that this sounds almost identical to a recent patient

of mine. She was in severe pain for about two months, but the pain

had been steadily building for over two years. She went to every

pain clinic, pain doctor and chiropractor. Finally, she started

coming for acupuncture. I pulled out all the stops...moxa, cupping,

acupuncture with and without electric stim, tui na, auricular etc.

All of it would only give her relief for about 1 to 4 hours. After

several days of treating her for an hour and a half she still was

getting no better. It was at this point that my gut told me that

this was deeply emotionally rooted. Every treatment she received

(even spinal blocks) were completely over rode by her emotional

issues that not even she was consciously aware of.

 

Since I have a background in NAET, i resorted to muscle testing. I

muscle tested to see what therapy would be effective for her. I

asked about NAET, BodyTalk, Acupuncture, Chiropractic, Western

Medicine, Homeopathy, Herbal Therapy and the body responded that it

didn't want any of it. I almost gave up but remembered Bach Flower

Remedies. Bingo...that is what her body wanted. I muscle tested

her for the appropriate remedies. Her body picked out four

flowers. I put a few drops of each in 8 oz of distilled water and

told her to take a teaspoon of the flower water three times a day.

After months of severe pain and depression, like magic her pain

completely disappeared within 8 hours. It has not come back since.

At the root of it all was this...She has cared for everybody for

many years. She cared for her kids, then her father with

alzheimers, now her mother who suffers from dementia, and her

husband who relies on her for everything. She was just plain tired

and didn't want to care for anyone anymore. And with severely,

debilitating pain she didn't have to. That is why nothing would

work. But the flower remedies helped her on level that none of the

other therapies could. It addressed the emotions and by doing so

cleared the pain almost immediately. It has been over one and a

half months and her pain has not returned at all.

 

My patient even had the identical patterns with LV/Ki as your

patient. The depression, the feeling cold, the nerve pain. It

sounds like they could be twins. The flower remedies may not be the

total answer for your patient but it couldn't do any harm to try.

If at the very least it will help with the depression and help her

cope with the separation of her and her partner. It may also make

her more open and likely to follow treatment plans with any herbal

formulas you would like for her to use. I hope it works for her as

well as it did for my patient.

 

Good Luck,

 

Kimberly Marin AP, RD

Davie, FL

 

> >

> > I am a new practitioner facing that moment where my immediate

> success

> > with a patient is dwindling, and I fear that she might be about

to

> > give up on TCM (or at least me) if we can't get her pain down

soon.

> > Any advice you can give me will be deeply appreciated. Here's

the

> scoop:

> >

> > 31 y.o. female, first time with acupuncture.

> > injured back by lifting 11 years ago while pregnant, off work for

> > several weeks - described as acute lumbar sprain with sharp

shooting

> > pain down both legs at time of injury. symptoms relieved but

> > occasional sciatica symptoms since, esp left side, following UB

> line -

> > sometimes down thigh stopping at UB40, sometimes all the way

down to

> > lateral ankle.

> >

> > March 2007, surgery on L foot due to " nerve pain " . Surgery

botched,

> > redone successfully, but during healing from foot surgery,

wearing

> > boot/cast for many months, back pain returned worse than before

and

> > has not let up since. MRI report shows " bulging discs " at L5-S1,

> > " stenosis " and " degenerative " , etc. (Has not been open to seeing

a

> > chiropractor, but I am working on her on this.)

> >

> > Prior to treatment, patient reported pain scale at 8, 9, and 10

on

> any

> > given day. Pn exacerbated by sitting, driving, stress -

alleviated

> by

> > laying on R side, warmth

> >

> > M.D.s have her on the following meds: (!!!)

> > MScontin - 60mg

> > Dilautid - 8mg

> > Paxil - 10mg

> > Cymbalta - 60mg

> > Lyrica - 75 mg

> >

> > They simply keep giving her more meds since nothing seems to be

> > working. Needless to say, she is experiencing severe fatigue,

> > spontaneous sweats, esp at night, gas, bloating, constipation,

> > dizziness, etc. And, most troublesome, severe depression. Her

> mother

> > is the one who called me since, after 2 unsuccessful nerve

blocks,

> > patient spoke of overdosing on meds and simply giving up since

there

> > seemed to be no end in sight.

> >

> > Tongue: pale body, red sli swollen edges, Sticky white coat at

root

> > and sides along deep center crack that does not reach tip, and

> thick,

> > dark sublingual veins.

> >

> > Pulses: Very thin, weak and deep at all positions, esp KID, both

> > sides, and sli wiry at LIV. The pulse is not rapid - if

anything, a

> > bit on the slow side.

> >

> > Patient hasn't had a period for 4 years due to Depo Provera

shots.

> >

> > What I have done so far:

> > Since this was her first time with acupuncture and she presented

> with

> > anxiety, deep depression and stress, my first goal was to calm

her

> > shen, move stagnate qi and blood and tonify KID. She has been

coming

> > to treatments 2x per week, but can only afford to come once a

week

> > starting this week. I have seen her for 7 treatments so far. We

> were

> > able to bring her pain level down to level 5 or 6 for most of the

> > treatments, but due to some more family stress (she has 3

children

> and

> > is leaving her partner who is fed up with her being in pain),

her

> pain

> > has, not surprisingly, shot back up to 7-8, with the shooting

pains

> > returning (we had been able to get rid of those after the first

> > treatment).

> >

> > Besides typical sciatica protocols, including electro and warm

> needle,

> > I have given her Spring Wind Herbal Compresses (however, she

hasn't

> > been able to find time to actually do them...). She is now open

to

> > taking a formula, but with all her meds, she is understandably

wary.

> > It is unlikely that I will be able to get her to prepare and

take a

> > raw decoction. She runs warm due to the opiates, but prior to

meds

> > she was always cold. Pain does not seem to be associated with

> recent

> > bouts of cold damp weather (I'm writing from California where

it's

> 65'

> > today...).

> >

> > Any tricks up your sleeves you'd be willing to share with me? I

> fully

> > realize that under some circumstances, if a patient isn't

willing to

> > do her part, there's not much more we can do. But since I am

new

> and

> > have so far had great " beginner's luck " with our amazing

medicine on

> > all my other patients, I am hoping it's just something obvious

I'm

> > missing.

> >

> > Thank you for your time.

> >

> > wishing you health and abundance,

> > Julia Carpenter, LAc

> > Berkeley, CA

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Julia.

 

What I see, there is some things that contribute to pain. Someone

mentioned Kidney Yang deficiency, sever fatigue,spontaneous sweating,

but since you also have night sweat and constipation you could

consider also Kidney Yin deficiency, the wire pulse can be from pain,

but since you also mention depression the Liver is possibly involved.

the tongue also points to internal cold with the thick white cover in

the back part. And the deep crack points to Kidney Yin deficiency or a

congenital propensity to Kidney problems. The deep pulse can be from

Cold and Yang deficiency.

 

John Amaro have a treatment " if everything else fails " for lowe back

problem, you might try that.

http://www.iama.edu/Articles/Lumbar_Spine.htm

 

Also consider Gua Sha if there is blood stagnated in the lower back.

 

Also consider the HuaTou points as someone else mentioned.

 

/Regards

Peter

 

Chinese Medicine , " juliacarp "

<julia.carpenter wrote:

>

> Greetings friends:

>

> I am a new practitioner facing that moment where my immediate success

> with a patient is dwindling, and I fear that she might be about to

> give up on TCM (or at least me) if we can't get her pain down soon.

> Any advice you can give me will be deeply appreciated. Here's the

scoop:

>

> 31 y.o. female, first time with acupuncture.

> injured back by lifting 11 years ago while pregnant, off work for

> several weeks - described as acute lumbar sprain with sharp shooting

> pain down both legs at time of injury. symptoms relieved but

> occasional sciatica symptoms since, esp left side, following UB line -

> sometimes down thigh stopping at UB40, sometimes all the way down to

> lateral ankle.

>

> March 2007, surgery on L foot due to " nerve pain " . Surgery botched,

> redone successfully, but during healing from foot surgery, wearing

> boot/cast for many months, back pain returned worse than before and

> has not let up since. MRI report shows " bulging discs " at L5-S1,

> " stenosis " and " degenerative " , etc. (Has not been open to seeing a

> chiropractor, but I am working on her on this.)

>

> Prior to treatment, patient reported pain scale at 8, 9, and 10 on any

> given day. Pn exacerbated by sitting, driving, stress - alleviated by

> laying on R side, warmth

>

> M.D.s have her on the following meds: (!!!)

> MScontin - 60mg

> Dilautid - 8mg

> Paxil - 10mg

> Cymbalta - 60mg

> Lyrica - 75 mg

>

> They simply keep giving her more meds since nothing seems to be

> working. Needless to say, she is experiencing severe fatigue,

> spontaneous sweats, esp at night, gas, bloating, constipation,

> dizziness, etc. And, most troublesome, severe depression. Her mother

> is the one who called me since, after 2 unsuccessful nerve blocks,

> patient spoke of overdosing on meds and simply giving up since there

> seemed to be no end in sight.

>

> Tongue: pale body, red sli swollen edges, Sticky white coat at root

> and sides along deep center crack that does not reach tip, and thick,

> dark sublingual veins.

>

> Pulses: Very thin, weak and deep at all positions, esp KID, both

> sides, and sli wiry at LIV. The pulse is not rapid - if anything, a

> bit on the slow side.

>

> Patient hasn't had a period for 4 years due to Depo Provera shots.

>

> What I have done so far:

> Since this was her first time with acupuncture and she presented with

> anxiety, deep depression and stress, my first goal was to calm her

> shen, move stagnate qi and blood and tonify KID. She has been coming

> to treatments 2x per week, but can only afford to come once a week

> starting this week. I have seen her for 7 treatments so far. We were

> able to bring her pain level down to level 5 or 6 for most of the

> treatments, but due to some more family stress (she has 3 children and

> is leaving her partner who is fed up with her being in pain), her pain

> has, not surprisingly, shot back up to 7-8, with the shooting pains

> returning (we had been able to get rid of those after the first

> treatment).

>

> Besides typical sciatica protocols, including electro and warm needle,

> I have given her Spring Wind Herbal Compresses (however, she hasn't

> been able to find time to actually do them...). She is now open to

> taking a formula, but with all her meds, she is understandably wary.

> It is unlikely that I will be able to get her to prepare and take a

> raw decoction. She runs warm due to the opiates, but prior to meds

> she was always cold. Pain does not seem to be associated with recent

> bouts of cold damp weather (I'm writing from California where it's 65'

> today...).

>

> Any tricks up your sleeves you'd be willing to share with me? I fully

> realize that under some circumstances, if a patient isn't willing to

> do her part, there's not much more we can do. But since I am new and

> have so far had great " beginner's luck " with our amazing medicine on

> all my other patients, I am hoping it's just something obvious I'm

> missing.

>

> Thank you for your time.

>

> wishing you health and abundance,

> Julia Carpenter, LAc

> Berkeley, CA

>

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , " toganm "

 

Thank you all for your wonderful suggestions. I have replied to many

of you offline, and I'll certainly let you know how it goes (I see her

tomorrow).

 

Togan, I am not familiar with Akabane testing, but I am starting a

little online research after reading your message. Can you please let

us know how you use this technique? Do I need a special tool or

special training? It sounds fascinating and very helpful for

determining channel blocks. Please share with us what you know.

 

Thanks,

best,

 

Julia Carpenter, LAc

 

<toganm wrote:

>

 

>

>

> Have you done Akabane test and a treatment according to the test

results.

>

> Togan

>

[Guest guest]

Hi All, Julia & Michael,

 

Michael A Gorman wrote:

> Hi Julia, Sorry to hear that you are having so many problems. From the

> information you have provided I would suspect some Kid yang deficiency

> and I know that you have already tried the usual protocols. Given the

> state of the pulses I would try a Ren/Du block treatment, recheck the

> stste of the pulses then build Metal with Bl 13, Li 4 and Lu 9

> tonified. If this improves the pulses I would then re-apply a Kid Yang

> deficiency treatment with moxa on Bl23. To reduce some of the symptoms

> try strong stimulation on Yaotongxue (N-UE-19) at the point where the

> fourth and fifth metacarpal bones meet. I hope this is helpful. Kind

> regards Michael

 

I agree with Michael that you might try Extra Point Yaotongxue (Loin

Pain Pts) but I use TWO locations for those points:

 

(a) on the hand dorsum, high up near the junction of metacarpals 4-5

(as Michael mentioned)

 

but also

 

(b) on the hand dorsum, high up near the junction of metacarpals 2-3

 

These are superb points for lowback pain, especially acute pain, in

humans and dogs.

 

For humans and dogs, I would also add two more points:

 

GV26-Shuigou + a point at the distal tip of the coccyx. I do not know

if there is an Extra point there in humans, but in animals there is a

point called Weijian (Tail Tip).

 

I used GV26 + Weijian today in two HORSES with severe bilateral

spinal / paraspinal pain and the result was incredible - the pain was

gone within 15 seconds.

 

[One cannot expect humans and dogs to respond to acupuncture as fast

as horses because horses are uniquely and brilliantly responsive.

Humans and dogs can take 4-7 days to respond whereas horses respond

in seconds if the points are relevant to their condition].

 

I reinforced the effect in the two horses with bilateral LU01 (for

thoracolumbar pain on the contralateral side) + BL13 + BL23 + BL26 +

BL40.

 

I use that combination [GV26 + Weijian + bilateral LU01 + BL13 + BL23

+ BL26 + BL40) in many horses with consistently good results for

bilateral thoracic, lumbar and lumbosacral pain.

 

(I use Yaotongxue only in humans and dogs, but not in horses).

 

Best regards,

 

[Guest guest]

peter:

 

thanks for sharing the john amaro article. it's always helpful to have some

new tools for the box.

 

kath

 

On Feb 13, 2008 5:02 AM, pejo_mstd <pejo_mstd wrote:

 

> Hi Julia.

>

> What I see, there is some things that contribute to pain. Someone

> mentioned Kidney Yang deficiency, sever fatigue,spontaneous sweating,

> but since you also have night sweat and constipation you could

> consider also Kidney Yin deficiency, the wire pulse can be from pain,

> but since you also mention depression the Liver is possibly involved.

> the tongue also points to internal cold with the thick white cover in

> the back part. And the deep crack points to Kidney Yin deficiency or a

> congenital propensity to Kidney problems. The deep pulse can be from

> Cold and Yang deficiency.

>

> John Amaro have a treatment " if everything else fails " for lowe back

> problem, you might try that.

> http://www.iama.edu/Articles/Lumbar_Spine.htm

>

> Also consider Gua Sha if there is blood stagnated in the lower back.

>

> Also consider the HuaTou points as someone else mentioned.

>

> /Regards

> Peter

>

> --- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>,

> " juliacarp "

> <julia.carpenter wrote:

> >

> > Greetings friends:

> >

> > I am a new practitioner facing that moment where my immediate success

> > with a patient is dwindling, and I fear that she might be about to

> > give up on TCM (or at least me) if we can't get her pain down soon.

> > Any advice you can give me will be deeply appreciated. Here's the

> scoop:

> >

> > 31 y.o. female, first time with acupuncture.

> > injured back by lifting 11 years ago while pregnant, off work for

> > several weeks - described as acute lumbar sprain with sharp shooting

> > pain down both legs at time of injury. symptoms relieved but

> > occasional sciatica symptoms since, esp left side, following UB line -

> > sometimes down thigh stopping at UB40, sometimes all the way down to

> > lateral ankle.

> >

> > March 2007, surgery on L foot due to " nerve pain " . Surgery botched,

> > redone successfully, but during healing from foot surgery, wearing

> > boot/cast for many months, back pain returned worse than before and

> > has not let up since. MRI report shows " bulging discs " at L5-S1,

> > " stenosis " and " degenerative " , etc. (Has not been open to seeing a

> > chiropractor, but I am working on her on this.)

> >

> > Prior to treatment, patient reported pain scale at 8, 9, and 10 on any

> > given day. Pn exacerbated by sitting, driving, stress - alleviated by

> > laying on R side, warmth

> >

> > M.D.s have her on the following meds: (!!!)

> > MScontin - 60mg

> > Dilautid - 8mg

> > Paxil - 10mg

> > Cymbalta - 60mg

> > Lyrica - 75 mg

> >

> > They simply keep giving her more meds since nothing seems to be

> > working. Needless to say, she is experiencing severe fatigue,

> > spontaneous sweats, esp at night, gas, bloating, constipation,

> > dizziness, etc. And, most troublesome, severe depression. Her mother

> > is the one who called me since, after 2 unsuccessful nerve blocks,

> > patient spoke of overdosing on meds and simply giving up since there

> > seemed to be no end in sight.

> >

> > Tongue: pale body, red sli swollen edges, Sticky white coat at root

> > and sides along deep center crack that does not reach tip, and thick,

> > dark sublingual veins.

> >

> > Pulses: Very thin, weak and deep at all positions, esp KID, both

> > sides, and sli wiry at LIV. The pulse is not rapid - if anything, a

> > bit on the slow side.

> >

> > Patient hasn't had a period for 4 years due to Depo Provera shots.

> >

> > What I have done so far:

> > Since this was her first time with acupuncture and she presented with

> > anxiety, deep depression and stress, my first goal was to calm her

> > shen, move stagnate qi and blood and tonify KID. She has been coming

> > to treatments 2x per week, but can only afford to come once a week

> > starting this week. I have seen her for 7 treatments so far. We were

> > able to bring her pain level down to level 5 or 6 for most of the

> > treatments, but due to some more family stress (she has 3 children and

> > is leaving her partner who is fed up with her being in pain), her pain

> > has, not surprisingly, shot back up to 7-8, with the shooting pains

> > returning (we had been able to get rid of those after the first

> > treatment).

> >

> > Besides typical sciatica protocols, including electro and warm needle,

> > I have given her Spring Wind Herbal Compresses (however, she hasn't

> > been able to find time to actually do them...). She is now open to

> > taking a formula, but with all her meds, she is understandably wary.

> > It is unlikely that I will be able to get her to prepare and take a

> > raw decoction. She runs warm due to the opiates, but prior to meds

> > she was always cold. Pain does not seem to be associated with recent

> > bouts of cold damp weather (I'm writing from California where it's 65'

> > today...).

> >

> > Any tricks up your sleeves you'd be willing to share with me? I fully

> > realize that under some circumstances, if a patient isn't willing to

> > do her part, there's not much more we can do. But since I am new and

> > have so far had great " beginner's luck " with our amazing medicine on

> > all my other patients, I am hoping it's just something obvious I'm

> > missing.

> >

> > Thank you for your time.

> >

> > wishing you health and abundance,

> > Julia Carpenter, LAc

> > Berkeley, CA

> >

>

>

>

 

 

 

--

Kath Bartlett, LAc, MS, BA UCLA

Oriental Medicine

Experienced, Dedicated, Effective

 

Flying Dragon Liniment:

Effective pain relief for muscles & joints

Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist

Available at Asheville Center for , or web order at:

https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1

 

 

Asheville Center For

70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two

Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777

kbartlett

www.AcupunctureAsheville.com

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

peter:

 

john amaro mentions st3, but by the location discribed and diagramed, it

looks like he means st2. i can find no mention of either of the point for

lumbar pain. any thoughts on this?

 

kath

 

On Feb 13, 2008 5:02 AM, pejo_mstd <pejo_mstd wrote:

 

> Hi Julia.

>

> What I see, there is some things that contribute to pain. Someone

> mentioned Kidney Yang deficiency, sever fatigue,spontaneous sweating,

> but since you also have night sweat and constipation you could

> consider also Kidney Yin deficiency, the wire pulse can be from pain,

> but since you also mention depression the Liver is possibly involved.

> the tongue also points to internal cold with the thick white cover in

> the back part. And the deep crack points to Kidney Yin deficiency or a

> congenital propensity to Kidney problems. The deep pulse can be from

> Cold and Yang deficiency.

>

> John Amaro have a treatment " if everything else fails " for lowe back

> problem, you might try that.

> http://www.iama.edu/Articles/Lumbar_Spine.htm

>

> Also consider Gua Sha if there is blood stagnated in the lower back.

>

> Also consider the HuaTou points as someone else mentioned.

>

> /Regards

> Peter

>

> --- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>,

> " juliacarp "

> <julia.carpenter wrote:

> >

> > Greetings friends:

> >

> > I am a new practitioner facing that moment where my immediate success

> > with a patient is dwindling, and I fear that she might be about to

> > give up on TCM (or at least me) if we can't get her pain down soon.

> > Any advice you can give me will be deeply appreciated. Here's the

> scoop:

> >

> > 31 y.o. female, first time with acupuncture.

> > injured back by lifting 11 years ago while pregnant, off work for

> > several weeks - described as acute lumbar sprain with sharp shooting

> > pain down both legs at time of injury. symptoms relieved but

> > occasional sciatica symptoms since, esp left side, following UB line -

> > sometimes down thigh stopping at UB40, sometimes all the way down to

> > lateral ankle.

> >

> > March 2007, surgery on L foot due to " nerve pain " . Surgery botched,

> > redone successfully, but during healing from foot surgery, wearing

> > boot/cast for many months, back pain returned worse than before and

> > has not let up since. MRI report shows " bulging discs " at L5-S1,

> > " stenosis " and " degenerative " , etc. (Has not been open to seeing a

> > chiropractor, but I am working on her on this.)

> >

> > Prior to treatment, patient reported pain scale at 8, 9, and 10 on any

> > given day. Pn exacerbated by sitting, driving, stress - alleviated by

> > laying on R side, warmth

> >

> > M.D.s have her on the following meds: (!!!)

> > MScontin - 60mg

> > Dilautid - 8mg

> > Paxil - 10mg

> > Cymbalta - 60mg

> > Lyrica - 75 mg

> >

> > They simply keep giving her more meds since nothing seems to be

> > working. Needless to say, she is experiencing severe fatigue,

> > spontaneous sweats, esp at night, gas, bloating, constipation,

> > dizziness, etc. And, most troublesome, severe depression. Her mother

> > is the one who called me since, after 2 unsuccessful nerve blocks,

> > patient spoke of overdosing on meds and simply giving up since there

> > seemed to be no end in sight.

> >

> > Tongue: pale body, red sli swollen edges, Sticky white coat at root

> > and sides along deep center crack that does not reach tip, and thick,

> > dark sublingual veins.

> >

> > Pulses: Very thin, weak and deep at all positions, esp KID, both

> > sides, and sli wiry at LIV. The pulse is not rapid - if anything, a

> > bit on the slow side.

> >

> > Patient hasn't had a period for 4 years due to Depo Provera shots.

> >

> > What I have done so far:

> > Since this was her first time with acupuncture and she presented with

> > anxiety, deep depression and stress, my first goal was to calm her

> > shen, move stagnate qi and blood and tonify KID. She has been coming

> > to treatments 2x per week, but can only afford to come once a week

> > starting this week. I have seen her for 7 treatments so far. We were

> > able to bring her pain level down to level 5 or 6 for most of the

> > treatments, but due to some more family stress (she has 3 children and

> > is leaving her partner who is fed up with her being in pain), her pain

> > has, not surprisingly, shot back up to 7-8, with the shooting pains

> > returning (we had been able to get rid of those after the first

> > treatment).

> >

> > Besides typical sciatica protocols, including electro and warm needle,

> > I have given her Spring Wind Herbal Compresses (however, she hasn't

> > been able to find time to actually do them...). She is now open to

> > taking a formula, but with all her meds, she is understandably wary.

> > It is unlikely that I will be able to get her to prepare and take a

> > raw decoction. She runs warm due to the opiates, but prior to meds

> > she was always cold. Pain does not seem to be associated with recent

> > bouts of cold damp weather (I'm writing from California where it's 65'

> > today...).

> >

> > Any tricks up your sleeves you'd be willing to share with me? I fully

> > realize that under some circumstances, if a patient isn't willing to

> > do her part, there's not much more we can do. But since I am new and

> > have so far had great " beginner's luck " with our amazing medicine on

> > all my other patients, I am hoping it's just something obvious I'm

> > missing.

> >

> > Thank you for your time.

> >

> > wishing you health and abundance,

> > Julia Carpenter, LAc

> > Berkeley, CA

> >

>

>

>

 

 

 

--

Kath Bartlett, LAc, MS, BA UCLA

Oriental Medicine

Experienced, Dedicated, Effective

 

Flying Dragon Liniment:

Effective pain relief for muscles & joints

Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist

Available at Asheville Center for , or web order at:

https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1

 

 

Asheville Center For

70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two

Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777

kbartlett

www.AcupunctureAsheville.com

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

juliacarp wrote:

>

> Togan, I am not familiar with Akabane testing, but I am starting a

> little online research after reading your message. Can you please let

> us know how you use this technique?

 

Akabane test is basically counting the swings of the burning incense

stick that passes on the Jing well points on the hand and the foot. For

Kidney-1 use the medial aspect of the fifth toes' nail bed (similar to

the location of Bl67 just the opposite side ) Start with the left side

and measure bilaterally each point before moving to the next meridian

(ie. Lu11 left side then Lu11 right side before moving to the next). But

before doing the test one must make sure the central pulse ( at the

umbilicus)is aligned or corrected to be at the center else the tx may

not show its effect.

 

Any difference that is like the 30% between left and right needs to be

adjusted. (although Akabane used the difference of double). Then for the

excess side (that is with the lowest number) use the back shu of the

meridian on that side and quickly insert and withdraw the needle. Place

an intradermal needle on the backshu point of the same meridian on the

other side. (ie. in your readings it showed that LI on the left side is

6 and the right side is 10 then use the back shu of LI, BL25. Therefore

quickly insert and withdraw the needle to the left Bl25 and then apply

an intradermal needle at right BL25).

 

There are various other ways of interpretating the results of the test.

I tend to use the test in four consecutive tx to see how the channels

are reacting to the treatment. A good book that describes the protocol

is by Miki Shima and Charles Chace " The Channel Divergences: Deeper

Pathways of the Web " . Chapter 3 is especially good as it has a nice form

to record the readings.

 

Hope this helps

Togan

[Guest guest]

Yes I can see that, The picture is not the best, but it looks like

ST-2 more than ST3. I don't know if you should go by what is written

or what the picture says.

 

/Peter

 

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " Kath Bartlett,

MS, LAc " wrote:

>

> peter:

>

> john amaro mentions st3, but by the location discribed and diagramed, it

> looks like he means st2. i can find no mention of either of the

point for

> lumbar pain. any thoughts on this?

>

> kath

>

> On Feb 13, 2008 5:02 AM, pejo_mstd <pejo_mstd wrote:

>

> > Hi Julia.

> >

> > What I see, there is some things that contribute to pain. Someone

> > mentioned Kidney Yang deficiency, sever fatigue,spontaneous sweating,

> > but since you also have night sweat and constipation you could

> > consider also Kidney Yin deficiency, the wire pulse can be from pain,

> > but since you also mention depression the Liver is possibly involved.

> > the tongue also points to internal cold with the thick white cover in

> > the back part. And the deep crack points to Kidney Yin deficiency or a

> > congenital propensity to Kidney problems. The deep pulse can be from

> > Cold and Yang deficiency.

> >

> > John Amaro have a treatment " if everything else fails " for lowe back

> > problem, you might try that.

> > http://www.iama.edu/Articles/Lumbar_Spine.htm

> >

> > Also consider Gua Sha if there is blood stagnated in the lower back.

> >

> > Also consider the HuaTou points as someone else mentioned.

> >

> > /Regards

> > Peter

> >

> > --- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>,

> > " juliacarp "

> > <julia.carpenter@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Greetings friends:

> > >

> > > I am a new practitioner facing that moment where my immediate

success

> > > with a patient is dwindling, and I fear that she might be about to

> > > give up on TCM (or at least me) if we can't get her pain down soon.

> > > Any advice you can give me will be deeply appreciated. Here's the

> > scoop:

> > >

> > > 31 y.o. female, first time with acupuncture.

> > > injured back by lifting 11 years ago while pregnant, off work for

> > > several weeks - described as acute lumbar sprain with sharp shooting

> > > pain down both legs at time of injury. symptoms relieved but

> > > occasional sciatica symptoms since, esp left side, following UB

line -

> > > sometimes down thigh stopping at UB40, sometimes all the way down to

> > > lateral ankle.

> > >

> > > March 2007, surgery on L foot due to " nerve pain " . Surgery botched,

> > > redone successfully, but during healing from foot surgery, wearing

> > > boot/cast for many months, back pain returned worse than before and

> > > has not let up since. MRI report shows " bulging discs " at L5-S1,

> > > " stenosis " and " degenerative " , etc. (Has not been open to seeing a

> > > chiropractor, but I am working on her on this.)

> > >

> > > Prior to treatment, patient reported pain scale at 8, 9, and 10

on any

> > > given day. Pn exacerbated by sitting, driving, stress -

alleviated by

> > > laying on R side, warmth

> > >

> > > M.D.s have her on the following meds: (!!!)

> > > MScontin - 60mg

> > > Dilautid - 8mg

> > > Paxil - 10mg

> > > Cymbalta - 60mg

> > > Lyrica - 75 mg

> > >

> > > They simply keep giving her more meds since nothing seems to be

> > > working. Needless to say, she is experiencing severe fatigue,

> > > spontaneous sweats, esp at night, gas, bloating, constipation,

> > > dizziness, etc. And, most troublesome, severe depression. Her mother

> > > is the one who called me since, after 2 unsuccessful nerve blocks,

> > > patient spoke of overdosing on meds and simply giving up since there

> > > seemed to be no end in sight.

> > >

> > > Tongue: pale body, red sli swollen edges, Sticky white coat at root

> > > and sides along deep center crack that does not reach tip, and

thick,

> > > dark sublingual veins.

> > >

> > > Pulses: Very thin, weak and deep at all positions, esp KID, both

> > > sides, and sli wiry at LIV. The pulse is not rapid - if anything, a

> > > bit on the slow side.

> > >

> > > Patient hasn't had a period for 4 years due to Depo Provera shots.

> > >

> > > What I have done so far:

> > > Since this was her first time with acupuncture and she presented

with

> > > anxiety, deep depression and stress, my first goal was to calm her

> > > shen, move stagnate qi and blood and tonify KID. She has been coming

> > > to treatments 2x per week, but can only afford to come once a week

> > > starting this week. I have seen her for 7 treatments so far. We were

> > > able to bring her pain level down to level 5 or 6 for most of the

> > > treatments, but due to some more family stress (she has 3

children and

> > > is leaving her partner who is fed up with her being in pain),

her pain

> > > has, not surprisingly, shot back up to 7-8, with the shooting pains

> > > returning (we had been able to get rid of those after the first

> > > treatment).

> > >

> > > Besides typical sciatica protocols, including electro and warm

needle,

> > > I have given her Spring Wind Herbal Compresses (however, she hasn't

> > > been able to find time to actually do them...). She is now open to

> > > taking a formula, but with all her meds, she is understandably wary.

> > > It is unlikely that I will be able to get her to prepare and take a

> > > raw decoction. She runs warm due to the opiates, but prior to meds

> > > she was always cold. Pain does not seem to be associated with recent

> > > bouts of cold damp weather (I'm writing from California where

it's 65'

> > > today...).

> > >

> > > Any tricks up your sleeves you'd be willing to share with me? I

fully

> > > realize that under some circumstances, if a patient isn't willing to

> > > do her part, there's not much more we can do. But since I am new and

> > > have so far had great " beginner's luck " with our amazing medicine on

> > > all my other patients, I am hoping it's just something obvious I'm

> > > missing.

> > >

> > > Thank you for your time.

> > >

> > > wishing you health and abundance,

> > > Julia Carpenter, LAc

> > > Berkeley, CA

> > >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

> --

> Kath Bartlett, LAc, MS, BA UCLA

> Oriental Medicine

> Experienced, Dedicated, Effective

>

> Flying Dragon Liniment:

> Effective pain relief for muscles & joints

> Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist

> Available at Asheville Center for , or web order at:

> https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1

>

>

> Asheville Center For

> 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two

> Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777

> kbartlett

> www.AcupunctureAsheville.com

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

From my experience (and my background in movement and somatics before studying

TCM) I have found that acupoints that " lift " the senses of the face, such as

St-3 or SI-18, can have the effect of decreasing back pain if the pain is coming

from habitual compression of the spine and poor alignment.  It's not just

structural/mechanical, but also entails shifting how one is looking out and

moving into the world.

 

 

 

--roseanne

 

 

pejo_mstd <pejo_mstd

Chinese Medicine

Thu, 14 Feb 2008 3:31 am

Re: difficult case: chronic low back pain

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes I can see that, The picture is not the best, but it looks like

ST-2 more than ST3. I don't know if you should go by what is written

or what the picture says.

 

/Peter

 

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " Kath Bartlett,

MS, LAc " wrote:

>

> peter:

>

> john amaro mentions st3, but by the location discribed and diagramed, it

> looks like he means st2. i can find no mention of either of the

point for

> lumbar pain. any thoughts on this?

>

> kath

>

> On Feb 13, 2008 5:02 AM, pejo_mstd <pejo_mstd wrote:

>

> > Hi Julia.

> >

> > What I see, there is some things that contribute to pain. Someone

> > mentioned Kidney Yang deficiency, sever fatigue,spontaneous sweating,

> > but since you also have night sweat and constipation you could

> > consider also Kidney Yin deficiency, the wire pulse can be from pain,

> > but since you also mention depression the Liver is possibly involved.

> > the tongue also points to internal cold with the thick white cover in

> > the back part. And the deep crack points to Kidney Yin deficiency or a

> > congenital propensity to Kidney problems. The deep pulse can be from

> > Cold and Yang deficiency.

> >

> > John Amaro have a treatment " if everything else fails " for lowe back

> > problem, you might try that.

> > http://www.iama.edu/Articles/Lumbar_Spine.htm

> >

> > Also consider Gua Sha if there is blood stagnated in the lower back.

> >

> > Also consider the HuaTou points as someone else mentioned.

> >

> > /Regards

> > Peter

> >

> > --- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>,

> > " juliacarp "

> > <julia.carpenter@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Greetings friends:

> > >

> > > I am a new practitioner facing that moment where my immediate

success

> > > with a patient is dwindling, and I fear that she might be about to

> > > give up on TCM (or at least me) if we can't get her pain down soon.

> > > Any advice you can give me will be deeply appreciated. Here's the

> > scoop:

> > >

> > > 31 y.o. female, first time with acupuncture.

> > > injured back by lifting 11 years ago while pregnant, off work for

> > > several weeks - described as acute lumbar sprain with sharp shooting

> > > pain down both legs at time of injury. symptoms relieved but

> > > occasional sciatica symptoms since, esp left side, following UB

line -

> > > sometimes down thigh stopping at UB40, sometimes all the way down to

> > > lateral ankle.

> > >

> > > March 2007, surgery on L foot due to " nerve pain " . Surgery botched,

> > > redone successfully, but during healing from foot surgery, wearing

> > > boot/cast for many months, back pain returned worse than before and

> > > has not let up since. MRI report shows " bulging discs " at L5-S1,

> > > " stenosis " and " degenerative " , etc. (Has not been open to seeing a

> > > chiropractor, but I am working on her on this.)

> > >

> > > Prior to treatment, patient reported pain scale at 8, 9, and 10

on any

> > > given day. Pn exacerbated by sitting, driving, stress -

alleviated by

> > > laying on R side, warmth

> > >

> > > M.D.s have her on the following meds: (!!!)

> > > MScontin - 60mg

> > > Dilautid - 8mg

> > > Paxil - 10mg

> > > Cymbalta - 60mg

> > > Lyrica - 75 mg

> > >

> > > They simply keep giving her more meds since nothing seems to be

> > > working. Needless to say, she is experiencing severe fatigue,

> > > spontaneous sweats, esp at night, gas, bloating, constipation,

> > > dizziness, etc. And, most troublesome, severe depression. Her mother

> > > is the one who called me since, after 2 unsuccessful nerve blocks,

> > > patient spoke of overdosing on meds and simply giving up since there

> > > seemed to be no end in sight.

> > >

> > > Tongue: pale body, red sli swollen edges, Sticky white coat at root

> > > and sides along deep center crack that does not reach tip, and

thick,

> > > dark sublingual veins.

> > >

> > > Pulses: Very thin, weak and deep at all positions, esp KID, both

> > > sides, and sli wiry at LIV. The pulse is not rapid - if anything, a

> > > bit on the slow side.

> > >

> > > Patient hasn't had a period for 4 years due to Depo Provera shots.

> > >

> > > What I have done so far:

> > > Since this was her first time with acupuncture and she presented

with

> > > anxiety, deep depression and stress, my first goal was to calm her

> > > shen, move stagnate qi and blood and tonify KID. She has been coming

> > > to treatments 2x per week, but can only afford to come once a week

> > > starting this week. I have seen her for 7 treatments so far. We were

> > > able to bring her pain level down to level 5 or 6 for most of the

> > > treatments, but due to some more family stress (she has 3

children and

> > > is leaving her partner who is fed up with her being in pain),

her pain

> > > has, not surprisingly, shot back up to 7-8, with the shooting pains

> > > returning (we had been able to get rid of those after the first

> > > treatment).

> > >

> > > Besides typical sciatica protocols, including electro and warm

needle,

> > > I have given her Spring Wind Herbal Compresses (however, she hasn't

> > > been able to find time to actually do them...). She is now open to

> > > taking a formula, but with all her meds, she is understandably wary.

> > > It is unlikely that I will be able to get her to prepare and take a

> > > raw decoction. She runs warm due to the opiates, but prior to meds

> > > she was always cold. Pain does not seem to be associated with recent

> > > bouts of cold damp weather (I'm writing from California where

it's 65'

> > > today...).

> > >

> > > Any tricks up your sleeves you'd be willing to share with me? I

fully

> > > realize that under some circumstances, if a patient isn't willing to

> > > do her part, there's not much more we can do. But since I am new and

> > > have so far had great " beginner's luck " with our amazing medicine on

> > > all my other patients, I am hoping it's just something obvious I'm

> > > missing.

> > >

> > > Thank you for your time.

> > >

> > > wishing you health and abundance,

> > > Julia Carpenter, LAc

> > > Berkeley, CA

> > >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

> --

> Kath Bartlett, LAc, MS, BA UCLA

> Oriental Medicine

> Experienced, Dedicated, Effective

>

> Flying Dragon Liniment:

> Effective pain relief for muscles & joints

> Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist

> Available at Asheville Center for , or web order at:

> https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1

>

>

> Asheville Center For

> 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two

> Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777

> kbartlett

> www.AcupunctureAsheville.com

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi All, & Kimberley,

 

Kimberly Marin wrote:

> ... My patient even had the identical patterns with LV/Ki as your

> patient. The depression, the feeling cold, the nerve pain. It sounds

> like they could be twins. The flower remedies may not be the total

> answer for your patient but it couldn't do any harm to try. If at the

> very least it will help with the depression and help her cope with the

> separation of her and her partner. It may also make her more open and

> likely to follow treatment plans with any herbal formulas you would

> like for her to use. I hope it works for her as well as it did for my

> patient.

 

Kimberley raised a most important point here - the role of the emotions /

stress / loss of the will to be happy - in chronic pain or complex disease

patterns.

 

IMO it is very difficult for us to help a patient who consciously or

subconsciously feels that he/she " NEEDS to be ill " to escape from realities

that overwhelm him/her, UNLESS we can help to reorient his/her thoughts /

emotions to a loving and positive view of his/her life.

 

It is possible for people to be happy regardless of stressors and negative

environmental and emotional issues.

 

I find the " Serenity Prayer " useful in my life:

" G_d grant me the serenity

to accept the things I cannot change;

the courage to change the things I can

and the wisdom to know the difference. "

 

Best regards,

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

From my experience (and my background in movement and somatics before

studying TCM) I have found that acupoints that " lift " the senses of the

face, such as St-3 or SI-18, can have the effect of decreasing back pain . .

..but also entails shifting how one is looking out and moving into the world.

 

ok. that's an interesting take on it. it sounds a little like jeffrey

yuen.

 

kath

 

On Thu, Feb 14, 2008 at 1:23 PM, <ra6151 wrote:

 

From my experience (and my background in movement and somatics before

studying TCM) I have found that acupoints that " lift " the senses of the

face, such as St-3 or SI-18, can have the effect of decreasing back pain if

the pain is coming from habitual compression of the spine and poor

alignment. It's not just structural/mechanical, but also entails shifting

how one is looking out and moving into the world.

 

--roseanne

 

 

 

pejo_mstd <pejo_mstd <pejo_mstd%40.se>>

To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

Thu, 14 Feb 2008 3:31 am

Re: difficult case: chronic low back pain

 

Yes I can see that, The picture is not the best, but it looks like

ST-2 more than ST3. I don't know if you should go by what is written

or what the picture says.

 

/Peter

 

--- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>,

" Kath Bartlett,

MS, LAc " wrote:

>

> peter:

>

> john amaro mentions st3, but by the location discribed and diagramed, it

> looks like he means st2. i can find no mention of either of the

point for

> lumbar pain. any thoughts on this?

>

> kath

>

> On Feb 13, 2008 5:02 AM, pejo_mstd <pejo_mstd wrote:

>

> > Hi Julia.

> >

> > What I see, there is some things that contribute to pain. Someone

> > mentioned Kidney Yang deficiency, sever fatigue,spontaneous sweating,

> > but since you also have night sweat and constipation you could

> > consider also Kidney Yin deficiency, the wire pulse can be from pain,

> > but since you also mention depression the Liver is possibly involved.

> > the tongue also points to internal cold with the thick white cover in

> > the back part. And the deep crack points to Kidney Yin deficiency or a

> > congenital propensity to Kidney problems. The deep pulse can be from

> > Cold and Yang deficiency.

> >

> > John Amaro have a treatment " if everything else fails " for lowe back

> > problem, you might try that.

> > http://www.iama.edu/Articles/Lumbar_Spine.htm

> >

> > Also consider Gua Sha if there is blood stagnated in the lower back.

> >

> > Also consider the HuaTou points as someone else mentioned.

> >

> > /Regards

> > Peter

> >

> > --- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

<Chinese Medicine%40>,

> > " juliacarp "

> > <julia.carpenter@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Greetings friends:

> > >

> > > I am a new practitioner facing that moment where my immediate

success

> > > with a patient is dwindling, and I fear that she might be about to

> > > give up on TCM (or at least me) if we can't get her pain down soon.

> > > Any advice you can give me will be deeply appreciated. Here's the

> > scoop:

> > >

> > > 31 y.o. female, first time with acupuncture.

> > > injured back by lifting 11 years ago while pregnant, off work for

> > > several weeks - described as acute lumbar sprain with sharp shooting

> > > pain down both legs at time of injury. symptoms relieved but

> > > occasional sciatica symptoms since, esp left side, following UB

line -

> > > sometimes down thigh stopping at UB40, sometimes all the way down to

> > > lateral ankle.

> > >

> > > March 2007, surgery on L foot due to " nerve pain " . Surgery botched,

> > > redone successfully, but during healing from foot surgery, wearing

> > > boot/cast for many months, back pain returned worse than before and

> > > has not let up since. MRI report shows " bulging discs " at L5-S1,

> > > " stenosis " and " degenerative " , etc. (Has not been open to seeing a

> > > chiropractor, but I am working on her on this.)

> > >

> > > Prior to treatment, patient reported pain scale at 8, 9, and 10

on any

> > > given day. Pn exacerbated by sitting, driving, stress -

alleviated by

> > > laying on R side, warmth

> > >

> > > M.D.s have her on the following meds: (!!!)

> > > MScontin - 60mg

> > > Dilautid - 8mg

> > > Paxil - 10mg

> > > Cymbalta - 60mg

> > > Lyrica - 75 mg

> > >

> > > They simply keep giving her more meds since nothing seems to be

> > > working. Needless to say, she is experiencing severe fatigue,

> > > spontaneous sweats, esp at night, gas, bloating, constipation,

> > > dizziness, etc. And, most troublesome, severe depression. Her mother

> > > is the one who called me since, after 2 unsuccessful nerve blocks,

> > > patient spoke of overdosing on meds and simply giving up since there

> > > seemed to be no end in sight.

> > >

> > > Tongue: pale body, red sli swollen edges, Sticky white coat at root

> > > and sides along deep center crack that does not reach tip, and

thick,

> > > dark sublingual veins.

> > >

> > > Pulses: Very thin, weak and deep at all positions, esp KID, both

> > > sides, and sli wiry at LIV. The pulse is not rapid - if anything, a

> > > bit on the slow side.

> > >

> > > Patient hasn't had a period for 4 years due to Depo Provera shots.

> > >

> > > What I have done so far:

> > > Since this was her first time with acupuncture and she presented

with

> > > anxiety, deep depression and stress, my first goal was to calm her

> > > shen, move stagnate qi and blood and tonify KID. She has been coming

> > > to treatments 2x per week, but can only afford to come once a week

> > > starting this week. I have seen her for 7 treatments so far. We were

> > > able to bring her pain level down to level 5 or 6 for most of the

> > > treatments, but due to some more family stress (she has 3

children and

> > > is leaving her partner who is fed up with her being in pain),

her pain

> > > has, not surprisingly, shot back up to 7-8, with the shooting pains

> > > returning (we had been able to get rid of those after the first

> > > treatment).

> > >

> > > Besides typical sciatica protocols, including electro and warm

needle,

> > > I have given her Spring Wind Herbal Compresses (however, she hasn't

> > > been able to find time to actually do them...). She is now open to

> > > taking a formula, but with all her meds, she is understandably wary.

> > > It is unlikely that I will be able to get her to prepare and take a

> > > raw decoction. She runs warm due to the opiates, but prior to meds

> > > she was always cold. Pain does not seem to be associated with recent

> > > bouts of cold damp weather (I'm writing from California where

it's 65'

> > > today...).

> > >

> > > Any tricks up your sleeves you'd be willing to share with me? I

fully

> > > realize that under some circumstances, if a patient isn't willing to

> > > do her part, there's not much more we can do. But since I am new and

> > > have so far had great " beginner's luck " with our amazing medicine on

> > > all my other patients, I am hoping it's just something obvious I'm

> > > missing.

> > >

> > > Thank you for your time.

> > >

> > > wishing you health and abundance,

> > > Julia Carpenter, LAc

> > > Berkeley, CA

> > >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

> --

>

> Oriental Medicine

> Experienced, Dedicated, Effective

>

> Flying Dragon Liniment:

> Effective pain relief for muscles & joints

> Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist

> Available at Asheville Center for , or web order at:

> https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1

>

>

> Asheville Center For

> 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two

> Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777

> kbartlett

> www.AcupunctureAsheville.com <http://www.acupunctureasheville.com/>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

That is Master Tongs acupuncture and works nicely

 

Don

 

 

: acukath:

Fri, 15 Feb 2008 11:22:00 -0500Re: Re: difficult case: chronic

low back pain

 

 

 

 

From my experience (and my background in movement and somatics beforestudying

TCM) I have found that acupoints that " lift " the senses of theface, such as St-3

or SI-18, can have the effect of decreasing back pain . ..but also entails

shifting how one is looking out and moving into the world.ok. that's an

interesting take on it. it sounds a little like jeffreyyuen.kathOn Thu, Feb 14,

2008 at 1:23 PM, <ra6151 wrote:From my experience (and my background in

movement and somatics beforestudying TCM) I have found that acupoints that

" lift " the senses of theface, such as St-3 or SI-18, can have the effect of

decreasing back pain ifthe pain is coming from habitual compression of the spine

and pooralignment. It's not just structural/mechanical, but also entails

shiftinghow one is looking out and moving into the world.--roseanne-----Original

Message-----pejo_mstd <pejo_mstd <pejo_mstd%40.se>>To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>Thu, 14 Feb 2008 3:31 amRe: difficult case:

chronic low back painYes I can see that, The picture is not the best, but it

looks likeST-2 more than ST3. I don't know if you should go by what is writtenor

what the picture says./Peter--- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>, " Kath Bartlett,MS, LAc " wrote:>> peter:>> john amaro

mentions st3, but by the location discribed and diagramed, it> looks like he

means st2. i can find no mention of either of thepoint for> lumbar pain. any

thoughts on this?>> kath>> On Feb 13, 2008 5:02 AM, pejo_mstd <pejo_mstd

wrote:>> > Hi Julia.> >> > What I see, there is some things that contribute to

pain. Someone> > mentioned Kidney Yang deficiency, sever fatigue,spontaneous

sweating,> > but since you also have night sweat and constipation you could> >

consider also Kidney Yin deficiency, the wire pulse can be from pain,> > but

since you also mention depression the Liver is possibly involved.> > the tongue

also points to internal cold with the thick white cover in> > the back part. And

the deep crack points to Kidney Yin deficiency or a> > congenital propensity to

Kidney problems. The deep pulse can be from> > Cold and Yang deficiency.> >> >

John Amaro have a treatment " if everything else fails " for lowe back> > problem,

you might try that.> > http://www.iama.edu/Articles/Lumbar_Spine.htm> >> > Also

consider Gua Sha if there is blood stagnated in the lower back.> >> > Also

consider the HuaTou points as someone else mentioned.> >> > /Regards> > Peter>

>> > ---

InChinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40ya\

hoogroups.com><Chinese Medicine%40>,> > " juliacarp " >

> <julia.carpenter@> wrote:> > >> > > Greetings friends:> > >> > > I am a new

practitioner facing that moment where my immediatesuccess> > > with a patient is

dwindling, and I fear that she might be about to> > > give up on TCM (or at

least me) if we can't get her pain down soon.> > > Any advice you can give me

will be deeply appreciated. Here's the> > scoop:> > >> > > 31 y.o. female, first

time with acupuncture.> > > injured back by lifting 11 years ago while pregnant,

off work for> > > several weeks - described as acute lumbar sprain with sharp

shooting> > > pain down both legs at time of injury. symptoms relieved but> > >

occasional sciatica symptoms since, esp left side, following UBline -> > >

sometimes down thigh stopping at UB40, sometimes all the way down to> > >

lateral ankle.> > >> > > March 2007, surgery on L foot due to " nerve pain " .

Surgery botched,> > > redone successfully, but during healing from foot surgery,

wearing> > > boot/cast for many months, back pain returned worse than before

and> > > has not let up since. MRI report shows " bulging discs " at L5-S1,> > >

" stenosis " and " degenerative " , etc. (Has not been open to seeing a> > >

chiropractor, but I am working on her on this.)> > >> > > Prior to treatment,

patient reported pain scale at 8, 9, and 10on any> > > given day. Pn exacerbated

by sitting, driving, stress -alleviated by> > > laying on R side, warmth> > >> >

> M.D.s have her on the following meds: (!!!)> > > MScontin - 60mg> > > Dilautid

- 8mg> > > Paxil - 10mg> > > Cymbalta - 60mg> > > Lyrica - 75 mg> > >> > > They

simply keep giving her more meds since nothing seems to be> > > working.

Needless to say, she is experiencing severe fatigue,> > > spontaneous sweats,

esp at night, gas, bloating, constipation,> > > dizziness, etc. And, most

troublesome, severe depression. Her mother> > > is the one who called me since,

after 2 unsuccessful nerve blocks,> > > patient spoke of overdosing on meds and

simply giving up since there> > > seemed to be no end in sight.> > >> > >

Tongue: pale body, red sli swollen edges, Sticky white coat at root> > > and

sides along deep center crack that does not reach tip, andthick,> > > dark

sublingual veins.> > >> > > Pulses: Very thin, weak and deep at all positions,

esp KID, both> > > sides, and sli wiry at LIV. The pulse is not rapid - if

anything, a> > > bit on the slow side.> > >> > > Patient hasn't had a period for

4 years due to Depo Provera shots.> > >> > > What I have done so far:> > > Since

this was her first time with acupuncture and she presentedwith> > > anxiety,

deep depression and stress, my first goal was to calm her> > > shen, move

stagnate qi and blood and tonify KID. She has been coming> > > to treatments 2x

per week, but can only afford to come once a week> > > starting this week. I

have seen her for 7 treatments so far. We were> > > able to bring her pain level

down to level 5 or 6 for most of the> > > treatments, but due to some more

family stress (she has 3children and> > > is leaving her partner who is fed up

with her being in pain),her pain> > > has, not surprisingly, shot back up to

7-8, with the shooting pains> > > returning (we had been able to get rid of

those after the first> > > treatment).> > >> > > Besides typical sciatica

protocols, including electro and warmneedle,> > > I have given her Spring Wind

Herbal Compresses (however, she hasn't> > > been able to find time to actually

do them...). She is now open to> > > taking a formula, but with all her meds,

she is understandably wary.> > > It is unlikely that I will be able to get her

to prepare and take a> > > raw decoction. She runs warm due to the opiates, but

prior to meds> > > she was always cold. Pain does not seem to be associated with

recent> > > bouts of cold damp weather (I'm writing from California whereit's

65'> > > today...).> > >> > > Any tricks up your sleeves you'd be willing to

share with me? Ifully> > > realize that under some circumstances, if a patient

isn't willing to> > > do her part, there's not much more we can do. But since I

am new and> > > have so far had great " beginner's luck " with our amazing

medicine on> > > all my other patients, I am hoping it's just something obvious

I'm> > > missing.> > >> > > Thank you for your time.> > >> > > wishing you

health and abundance,> > > Julia Carpenter, LAc> > > Berkeley, CA> > >> >> >>

>>>>> --> > Board Certified in Oriental Medicine,

NCCAOM> Experienced, Dedicated, Effective>> Flying Dragon Liniment:> Effective

pain relief for muscles & joints> Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional

Chinese Herbalist> Available at Asheville Center for , or web

order at:>

https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1>>> Asheville

Center For > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two> Asheville,

NC 28801 828.258.2777> kbartlett www.AcupunctureAsheville.com

<http://www.acupunctureasheville.com/>>>> [Non-text portions of this message

have been removed]>Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Chinese

Medicine Timeshttp://www.chinesemedicinetimes.comHelp build the world's largest

online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine andacupuncture, click,

http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpediaTo change your email delivery

settings,

click,and adjust

accordingly.Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the

grouprequires prior permission from the author.Please consider the environment

and only print this message if absolutelynecessary.

Links________More new features

than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -http://webmail.aol.com[Non-text

portions of this message have been removed]>-- Kath Bartlett, LAc, MS, BA

UCLAOriental MedicineExperienced, Dedicated,

EffectiveFlying Dragon Liniment:Effective pain relief for muscles &

jointsFormulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese HerbalistAvailable at

Asheville Center for , or web order

at:https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1Asheville

Center For 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing TwoAsheville, NC

28801

828.258.2777kbartlett[Non-t\

ext portions of this message have been removed]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

donald:

 

is john amaro referring to st2 or 3 here? he names the point st3, but from

the diagram in the article and location description it looks as though he's

indicating st2. can you shed some light on this?

 

kath

 

On Feb 15, 2008 12:02 PM, Donald Snow <don83407 wrote:

 

>

> That is Master Tongs acupuncture and works nicely

>

> Don

>

> To:

Chinese Medicine<Chinese Medicine%40\

From>:

> acukath <acukath%40gmail.comDate>: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 11:22:00

> -0500Re: Re: difficult case: chronic low back pain

>

> From my experience (and my background in movement and somatics

> beforestudying TCM) I have found that acupoints that " lift " the senses of

> theface, such as St-3 or SI-18, can have the effect of decreasing back pain

> . ..but also entails shifting how one is looking out and moving into the

> world.ok. that's an interesting take on it. it sounds a little like

> jeffreyyuen.kathOn Thu, Feb 14, 2008 at 1:23 PM,

<ra6151<ra6151%40aol.com>>

> wrote:From my experience (and my background in movement and somatics

> beforestudying TCM) I have found that acupoints that " lift " the senses of

> theface, such as St-3 or SI-18, can have the effect of decreasing back pain

> ifthe pain is coming from habitual compression of the spine and

> pooralignment. It's not just structural/mechanical, but also entails

> shiftinghow one is looking out and moving into the

> world.--roseannepejo_mstd <

> pejo_mstd <pejo_mstd%40.se> <pejo_mstd%40.se>>To:

>

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com><Chinese Medicine%40>Sent:

> Thu, 14 Feb 2008 3:31 amRe: difficult case: chronic low back

> painYes I can see that, The picture is not the best, but it looks likeST-2

> more than ST3. I don't know if you should go by what is writtenor what the

> picture says./Peter--- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com><Chinese Medicine%40>, " Kath

> Bartlett,MS, LAc " wrote:>> peter:>> john amaro mentions st3,

> but by the location discribed and diagramed, it> looks like he means st2. i

> can find no mention of either of thepoint for> lumbar pain. any thoughts on

> this?>> kath>> On Feb 13, 2008 5:02 AM, pejo_mstd <pejo_mstd wrote:>> >

> Hi Julia.> >> > What I see, there is some things that contribute to pain.

> Someone> > mentioned Kidney Yang deficiency, sever fatigue,spontaneous

> sweating,> > but since you also have night sweat and constipation you could>

> > consider also Kidney Yin deficiency, the wire pulse can be from pain,> >

> but since you also mention depression the Liver is possibly involved.> > the

> tongue also points to internal cold with the thick white cover in> > the

> back part. And the deep crack points to Kidney Yin deficiency or a> >

> congenital propensity to Kidney problems. The deep pulse can be from> > Cold

> and Yang deficiency.> >> > John Amaro have a treatment " if everything else

> fails " for lowe back> > problem, you might try that.> >

> http://www.iama.edu/Articles/Lumbar_Spine.htm> >> > Also consider Gua Sha

> if there is blood stagnated in the lower back.> >> > Also consider the

> HuaTou points as someone else mentioned.> >> > /Regards> > Peter> >> > ---

>

InChinese Medicine <InChinese Medicine%40\

><Chinese Medicine%40><Traditional_Chi\

nese_Medicine%40>,>

> > " juliacarp " > > <julia.carpenter@> wrote:> > >> > > Greetings friends:> >

> >> > > I am a new practitioner facing that moment where my immediatesuccess>

> > > with a patient is dwindling, and I fear that she might be about to> > >

> give up on TCM (or at least me) if we can't get her pain down soon.> > > Any

> advice you can give me will be deeply appreciated. Here's the> > scoop:> >

> >> > > 31 y.o. female, first time with acupuncture.> > > injured back by

> lifting 11 years ago while pregnant, off work for> > > several weeks -

> described as acute lumbar sprain with sharp shooting> > > pain down both

> legs at time of injury. symptoms relieved but> > > occasional sciatica

> symptoms since, esp left side, following UBline -> > > sometimes down thigh

> stopping at UB40, sometimes all the way down to> > > lateral ankle.> > >> >

> > March 2007, surgery on L foot due to " nerve pain " . Surgery botched,> > >

> redone successfully, but during healing from foot surgery, wearing> > >

> boot/cast for many months, back pain returned worse than before and> > > has

> not let up since. MRI report shows " bulging discs " at L5-S1,> > > " stenosis "

> and " degenerative " , etc. (Has not been open to seeing a> > > chiropractor,

> but I am working on her on this.)> > >> > > Prior to treatment, patient

> reported pain scale at 8, 9, and 10on any> > > given day. Pn exacerbated by

> sitting, driving, stress -alleviated by> > > laying on R side, warmth> > >>

> > > M.D.s have her on the following meds: (!!!)> > > MScontin - 60mg> > >

> Dilautid - 8mg> > > Paxil - 10mg> > > Cymbalta - 60mg> > > Lyrica - 75 mg> >

> >> > > They simply keep giving her more meds since nothing seems to be> > >

> working. Needless to say, she is experiencing severe fatigue,> > >

> spontaneous sweats, esp at night, gas, bloating, constipation,> > >

> dizziness, etc. And, most troublesome, severe depression. Her mother> > > is

> the one who called me since, after 2 unsuccessful nerve blocks,> > > patient

> spoke of overdosing on meds and simply giving up since there> > > seemed to

> be no end in sight.> > >> > > Tongue: pale body, red sli swollen edges,

> Sticky white coat at root> > > and sides along deep center crack that does

> not reach tip, andthick,> > > dark sublingual veins.> > >> > > Pulses: Very

> thin, weak and deep at all positions, esp KID, both> > > sides, and sli wiry

> at LIV. The pulse is not rapid - if anything, a> > > bit on the slow side.>

> > >> > > Patient hasn't had a period for 4 years due to Depo Provera shots.>

> > >> > > What I have done so far:> > > Since this was her first time with

> acupuncture and she presentedwith> > > anxiety, deep depression and stress,

> my first goal was to calm her> > > shen, move stagnate qi and blood and

> tonify KID. She has been coming> > > to treatments 2x per week, but can only

> afford to come once a week> > > starting this week. I have seen her for 7

> treatments so far. We were> > > able to bring her pain level down to level 5

> or 6 for most of the> > > treatments, but due to some more family stress

> (she has 3children and> > > is leaving her partner who is fed up with her

> being in pain),her pain> > > has, not surprisingly, shot back up to 7-8,

> with the shooting pains> > > returning (we had been able to get rid of those

> after the first> > > treatment).> > >> > > Besides typical sciatica

> protocols, including electro and warmneedle,> > > I have given her Spring

> Wind Herbal Compresses (however, she hasn't> > > been able to find time to

> actually do them...). She is now open to> > > taking a formula, but with all

> her meds, she is understandably wary.> > > It is unlikely that I will be

> able to get her to prepare and take a> > > raw decoction. She runs warm due

> to the opiates, but prior to meds> > > she was always cold. Pain does not

> seem to be associated with recent> > > bouts of cold damp weather (I'm

> writing from California whereit's 65'> > > today...).> > >> > > Any tricks

> up your sleeves you'd be willing to share with me? Ifully> > > realize that

> under some circumstances, if a patient isn't willing to> > > do her part,

> there's not much more we can do. But since I am new and> > > have so far had

> great " beginner's luck " with our amazing medicine on> > > all my other

> patients, I am hoping it's just something obvious I'm> > > missing.> > >> >

> > Thank you for your time.> > >> > > wishing you health and abundance,> > >

> Julia Carpenter, LAc> > > Berkeley, CA> > >> >> >> >>>>> --> Kath Bartlett,

> LAc, MS, BA UCLA> Oriental Medicine> Experienced,

> Dedicated, Effective>> Flying Dragon Liniment:> Effective pain relief for

> muscles & joints> Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese

> Herbalist> Available at Asheville Center for , or web order

> at:> https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1>>>

> Asheville Center For > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing

> Two> Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777> kbartlett

> www.AcupunctureAsheville.com <http://www.acupunctureasheville.com/> <

> http://www.acupunctureasheville.com/>>>> [Non-text portions of this

> message have been removed]>Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at

> Timeshttp://www.chinesemedicinetimes.comHelp build the

> world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine andacupuncture,

> click, http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpediaTo change your

> email delivery settings, click,

> and adjust

> accordingly.Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication

> outside the grouprequires prior permission from the author.Please consider

> the environment and only print this message if absolutelynecessary.

> Groups Links________More

> new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -

> http://webmail.aol.com[Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]>-- Board Certified in Oriental

> Medicine, NCCAOMExperienced, Dedicated, EffectiveFlying Dragon

> Liniment:Effective pain relief for muscles & jointsFormulated by Kath

> Bartlett, Traditional Chinese HerbalistAvailable at Asheville Center for

> , or web order at:

>

https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1AshevilleCent\

er For 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing TwoAsheville,

> NC 28801

>

828.258.2777kbartlett<828.2\

58.2777kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.comwww.AcupunctureAsheville.com>[Non-tex\

t

> portions of this message have been removed]

>

>