Guest guest Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 I became an 'ethical' vegan last year when I learned about dairy 'farming.' About a year before that I read T. Colin Campbell's book, The China Study, which Zev referred to. In it, Dr. Campbell concludes that the ideal amount of animal-derived products in the human diet may be zero. He found particular harm in the dairy protein: casein. In his research, he started to see negative health effects when animal products accounted for just a few percent of total caloric intake. While his research is comprehensive, I think even Dr. Campbell said in an interview there are limitations to it. It's a great read, though. I just ordered Elizabeth Call's book: Mending the Web of Life which I understand is about endangered species in ... the website is www.mendingtheweb.com. There's a part on substitutions. Not exactly about avoiding animal products but probably some overlap, and I think an important topic, as well. I have been grappling with how to communicate with clients about diet now that I have extra motivation to steer them clear of animals. I would love to be able to talk with other practitioners about how they think about the interface between their ethics and their work. I'm thinking this is probably off topic so I'd like to invite anyone interested in such a conversation to email me offlist. I imagine when/where CM notions about diet developed, food may have been scarce, so meat was a welcome concentrated calorie-rich proteinaceous yang component. Also, the meat was not so full of the saturated fats but was grazed on grass, more nutritious, so it was a more healthful food. Anyone done the research on this? Thanks for this conversation, Marian mb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 Hi. An excellent book is " Paleolithic Prescription " to give a balanced view of the issues surrounding meat and our physical development as a species. Reenah " Marian Blum, L.Ac., DNBAO " <iaomb-dated-2116020421.8c68a0 wrote: I became an 'ethical' vegan last year when I learned about dairy 'farming.' About a year before that I read T. Colin Campbell's book, The China Study, which Zev referred to. In it, Dr. Campbell concludes that the ideal amount of animal-derived products in the human diet may be zero. He found particular harm in the dairy protein: casein. In his research, he started to see negative health effects when animal products accounted for just a few percent of total caloric intake. While his research is comprehensive, I think even Dr. Campbell said in an interview there are limitations to it. It's a great read, though. I just ordered Elizabeth Call's book: Mending the Web of Life which I understand is about endangered species in ... the website is www.mendingtheweb.com. There's a part on substitutions. Not exactly about avoiding animal products but probably some overlap, and I think an important topic, as well. I have been grappling with how to communicate with clients about diet now that I have extra motivation to steer them clear of animals. I would love to be able to talk with other practitioners about how they think about the interface between their ethics and their work. I'm thinking this is probably off topic so I'd like to invite anyone interested in such a conversation to email me offlist. I imagine when/where CM notions about diet developed, food may have been scarce, so meat was a welcome concentrated calorie-rich proteinaceous yang component. Also, the meat was not so full of the saturated fats but was grazed on grass, more nutritious, so it was a more healthful food. Anyone done the research on this? Thanks for this conversation, Marian mb Dr. Reenah McGill Licensed Acupuncturist & Biofeedback Specialist Healing Energy Center Modern Technology and Ancient Wisdom 323.668.0278 ph 323.668.2206 fax visit http://WWW.healingenergycenter.com and signup for your FREE ezine of health news and information to improve your life. Never miss a thing. Make your homepage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 The absence or presence of meat in a diet isn't the main issue. It always gets down to the simple fact of bad nutrition versus good nutrition. I think we have all seen examples of terrible vegan diets and terrible meat-based diets. The standard American diet is a good example of how not to eat meat. On the other hand, I have seen many vegans and vegetarians who really don't eat enough protein. Fruit for breakfast, chips and salsa for lunch, rice and veggies for dinner. No beans or nuts at all. If they are vegan and eat no dairy or eggs, that kind of diet is guaranteed to lead to deficiency. On the other hand, I have seen very healthy vegans. There is a mixed martial arts champion who is a vegan. So, it is certainly possible, but it requires diligence. It's more important for vegans to think about what they DO eat, not what they DON'T eat. I once had a raw vegan patient who looked 15 years younger than her age. She had a glow to her. She came to me because her teeth were falling out. Her diet had almost no protein. When she started eating beans and nuts, her teeth firmed up in the sockets. So, we shouldn't fall into the dogmatic trap that all vegans and vegetarians have deficiency, but we need to be aware that errors in those diets can easily lead to deficiency. The dogmatic approach is to tell them to eat meat or die. A better approach is to look at their intake of vegetable proteins and dark greens. If they don't have the determination to eat enough of those, they may eventually end up eating meat anyway. - Bill Schoenbart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 I agree, Bill, on all counts. . . On Feb 7, 2008, at 11:00 AM, bill_schoenbart wrote: > The absence or presence of meat in a diet isn't the main issue. It > always gets down to the simple fact of bad nutrition versus good > nutrition. I think we have all seen examples of terrible vegan diets > and terrible meat-based diets. The standard American diet is a good > example of how not to eat meat. On the other hand, I have seen many > vegans and vegetarians who really don't eat enough protein. Fruit for > breakfast, chips and salsa for lunch, rice and veggies for dinner. No > beans or nuts at all. If they are vegan and eat no dairy or eggs, that > kind of diet is guaranteed to lead to deficiency. > > On the other hand, I have seen very healthy vegans. There is a mixed > martial arts champion who is a vegan. So, it is certainly possible, > but it requires diligence. It's more important for vegans to think > about what they DO eat, not what they DON'T eat. I once had a raw > vegan patient who looked 15 years younger than her age. She had a glow > to her. She came to me because her teeth were falling out. Her diet > had almost no protein. When she started eating beans and nuts, her > teeth firmed up in the sockets. > > So, we shouldn't fall into the dogmatic trap that all vegans and > vegetarians have deficiency, but we need to be aware that errors in > those diets can easily lead to deficiency. The dogmatic approach is to > tell them to eat meat or die. A better approach is to look at their > intake of vegetable proteins and dark greens. If they don't have the > determination to eat enough of those, they may eventually end up > eating meat anyway. > > - Bill Schoenbart > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2008 Report Share Posted February 8, 2008 bill: thank you very much for this post. you really hit the nail on the head. esp. working with vegans to eat healthy, rather than trying to convert them to a meat based diet. appreciatively, kath On Feb 7, 2008 2:00 PM, bill_schoenbart <plantmed wrote: > The absence or presence of meat in a diet isn't the main issue. It > always gets down to the simple fact of bad nutrition versus good > nutrition. I think we have all seen examples of terrible vegan diets > and terrible meat-based diets. The standard American diet is a good > example of how not to eat meat. On the other hand, I have seen many > vegans and vegetarians who really don't eat enough protein. Fruit for > breakfast, chips and salsa for lunch, rice and veggies for dinner. No > beans or nuts at all. If they are vegan and eat no dairy or eggs, that > kind of diet is guaranteed to lead to deficiency. > > On the other hand, I have seen very healthy vegans. There is a mixed > martial arts champion who is a vegan. So, it is certainly possible, > but it requires diligence. It's more important for vegans to think > about what they DO eat, not what they DON'T eat. I once had a raw > vegan patient who looked 15 years younger than her age. She had a glow > to her. She came to me because her teeth were falling out. Her diet > had almost no protein. When she started eating beans and nuts, her > teeth firmed up in the sockets. > > So, we shouldn't fall into the dogmatic trap that all vegans and > vegetarians have deficiency, but we need to be aware that errors in > those diets can easily lead to deficiency. The dogmatic approach is to > tell them to eat meat or die. A better approach is to look at their > intake of vegetable proteins and dark greens. If they don't have the > determination to eat enough of those, they may eventually end up > eating meat anyway. > > - Bill Schoenbart > > > -- Kath Bartlett, LAc, MS, BA UCLA Oriental Medicine Experienced, Dedicated, Effective Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & joints Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist Available at Asheville Center for , or web order at: https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1 Asheville Center For 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 kbartlett www.AcupunctureAsheville.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2008 Report Share Posted February 8, 2008 Bill, Ditto. One roommate's good friend was a self-proclaimed 'junk-food vegetarian' and decidedly obese. Getting enough produce, and fiber - a common deficiency among meat-eaters, is more important than whether or not meat is present. I am omnivoruous now; however, I was lacto-ovo veggie while in school. I loathed feeling like it was fine that I'm lesbian but I needed to keep my vegetarianism in the closet! I am SO glad that this discussion is happening, and to know that other practitioners are also more open about this subject than I might have thought. Maybe we're just not getting comments from the anti-veggies, I don't know. I definitely like the open tone of this discussion. Thanks to all for rational thinking and common sense! Lynn --- bill_schoenbart <plantmed wrote: > The absence or presence of meat in a diet isn't the > main issue. It always gets down to the simple fact of bad nutrition versus good nutrition. I think we have all seen examples of terrible vegan diets and terrible meat-based diets.... ~ Doing Better Than I Deserve ~ Pain is Normal - Be Weird! Lynn Detamore, MS, L.Ac., Dipl.Ac. Licensed and Board Certified Acupuncturist PO Box 14, Sheridan, OR 97378 503.474.8876 lynndetamore ______________________________\ ____ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile./;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2008 Report Share Posted February 8, 2008 Bill, While I agree that there are people eating poorly as vegans, and you seem to have seen more than your share of them, on the whole, vegan diets are more healthful than omnivorous diets. Consumption of animal products (and smoking) is largely responsible for the top killer diseases in the US. Animal products add nothing beneficial to the human diet that can't be found in plant foods (except vitamin B-12 which is made by bacteria). That said, I imagine there are some people, not many, who may do better consuming a small amount of animal products. Perhaps TCM helps us determine who they are. Adding meat to someone's poor vegan diet doesn't made a good diet. We take heart disease, colon cancer, diabetes (etc.) for granted because they're so prevalent but they're largely preventable. Of course, refined carbs play a part, too. Researchers like Ornish and Esselstyn have found that adding just a small percentage of animal food to the diet increases heart disease risk. So I agree with your points, Bill, but with a different emphasis: we should recommend nutritious foods to everyone, whether omni or vegan, and nutritious foods are overwhelmingly plant foods. Living in accordance with one's values, as an ethical vegan does, is in itself a good boost for well being. It's not difficult to be supportive of their choice without recommending animal consumption. For more about vegan nutrition: www.veganhealth.org Marian --- In Chinese Medicine , " bill_schoenbart " <plantmed wrote: > > The absence or presence of meat in a diet isn't the main issue. It > always gets down to the simple fact of bad nutrition versus good > nutrition. I think we have all seen examples of terrible vegan diets > and terrible meat-based diets. The standard American diet is a good > example of how not to eat meat. On the other hand, I have seen many > vegans and vegetarians who really don't eat enough protein. Fruit for > breakfast, chips and salsa for lunch, rice and veggies for dinner. No > beans or nuts at all. If they are vegan and eat no dairy or eggs, that > kind of diet is guaranteed to lead to deficiency. > > On the other hand, I have seen very healthy vegans. There is a mixed > martial arts champion who is a vegan. So, it is certainly possible, > but it requires diligence. It's more important for vegans to think > about what they DO eat, not what they DON'T eat. I once had a raw > vegan patient who looked 15 years younger than her age. She had a glow > to her. She came to me because her teeth were falling out. Her diet > had almost no protein. When she started eating beans and nuts, her > teeth firmed up in the sockets. > > So, we shouldn't fall into the dogmatic trap that all vegans and > vegetarians have deficiency, but we need to be aware that errors in > those diets can easily lead to deficiency. The dogmatic approach is to > tell them to eat meat or die. A better approach is to look at their > intake of vegetable proteins and dark greens. If they don't have the > determination to eat enough of those, they may eventually end up > eating meat anyway. > > - Bill Schoenbart > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2008 Report Share Posted February 9, 2008 > on the whole, vegan > diets are more healthful than omnivorous diets. Consumption of animal > products (and smoking) is largely responsible for the top killer > diseases in the US. Animal products add nothing beneficial to the > human diet that can't be found in plant foods (except vitamin B-12 > which is made by bacteria). That said, I imagine there are some > people, not many, who may do better consuming a small amount of > animal products. Perhaps TCM helps us determine who they are. I think you may be over-generalizing due to your strong feelings on the topic. I have seen plenty of unhealthy vegans. Vegan just means you don't eat animal products. What they DO eat will determine if they are healthy or not. Regarding omnivores, do you really think that a diet of organic whole grains, vegetables, beans, and small amounts of organic meat or fish is unhealthy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2008 Report Share Posted February 9, 2008 Bill, No, I don't think that's unhealthy, at all. I meant to say that animal product consumption is responsible for a whole lot more disease than veganism. I did say that there's quite a bit of research, like Campbell and Esselstyn's, that seems to show a negative impact of small amounts of animal products but I don't think we can say anything conclusive as yet. I'm trying NOT to recommend veg*n at all on the basis of ethics but I recognize that it has to be influencing me just as we are all influenced by our values whether we are aware of it or not. Being vegan makes me 'different' so that value showed more easily than the more common values. I'm on vacation so I haven't the time to compose more thoughtful responses at the moment. thanks for the discussion, Marian --- In Chinese Medicine , " bill_schoenbart " <plantmed wrote: > > > on the whole, vegan > > diets are more healthful than omnivorous diets. Consumption of animal > > products (and smoking) is largely responsible for the top killer > > diseases in the US. Animal products add nothing beneficial to the > > human diet that can't be found in plant foods (except vitamin B- 12 > > which is made by bacteria). That said, I imagine there are some > > people, not many, who may do better consuming a small amount of > > animal products. Perhaps TCM helps us determine who they are. > > > I think you may be over-generalizing due to your strong feelings on > the topic. I have seen plenty of unhealthy vegans. Vegan just means > you don't eat animal products. What they DO eat will determine if they > are healthy or not. Regarding omnivores, do you really think that a > diet of organic whole grains, vegetables, beans, and small amounts of > organic meat or fish is unhealthy? > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2008 Report Share Posted February 10, 2008 David Toone <david Chinese Medicine Friday, February 8, 2008 11:32:39 AM Re: eating meat Thanks everyone for the very beneficial discussion. In light of several comments like Marian's that " animal products add nothing beneficial to the human diet " , I was wondering what folks think of the observations of Weston A. Price (www.westonaprice. org) and how that squares with CM, if at all? David Toone, L.Ac. David, I have been a member of w price's milk club for two years or so, and i have seen the difference between raw milk and processed milk first hand. I have three kids and my mother in law is our primary baby sitter, so my wife, also an TCM doctor, are able to work. She used to get stomach pain that disappeared after the introduction of the raw milk to her diet. One day, when we ran out of the raw milk, i picked up some Horizon organic milk to substitute until the delivery the next week. She drank a small amount and was wracked with abdominal pain. The homogenization process chops up the long chains of the fatty acids allowing the fat to remain evenly distributed through out the milk. But this causes digestive problems because milk is supposed to curdle in the stomach, but, the fat from the homogenized milk doesn't allow this to happen and it dumps too quickly into the small intestine. We don't drink milk in our house, it is used mainly for cooking (and the very rare bowel of cereal for the kids), but we are staunch advocates of raw milk. Douglas Knapp Doctoral Fellow, L.Ac. Full Moon Acupuncture 1600 York Avenue New York, NY 10028 212-734-1459 ______________________________\ ____ Never miss a thing. Make your home page. http://www./r/hs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2008 Report Share Posted February 10, 2008 I think you touched on the point I was trying to make. We need to distinguish between our ethics and our medical knowledge. A vegan TCM practitioner needs to be impartial when making dietary recommendations, including info on the energetics of meat. I'm not a vegan, but I haven't eaten meat in over 40 years for ethical reasons. However, if a blood deficient patient asks if red meat will help, I'm obligated by my physician's ethics to say yes. I don't have a problem with preparing a dietary plan for the patient that includes meat, even though I don't eat it. If the patient is vegetarian, I make recommendations for vegetarian sources of blood nourishing foods. Unfortunately, many vegans seem to find it impossible to eat those foods and continue on a mostly carbohydrate diet. In that case, I warn them that they will eventually need to eat meat if they continue on that path. That motivates a certain proportion of them. - Bill Chinese Medicine , " Marian Blum, L.Ac., DNBAO " <iaomb-dated-2116020421.8c68a0 wrote: > > Bill, > > No, I don't think that's unhealthy, at all. I meant to say that > animal product consumption is responsible for a whole lot more > disease than veganism. I did say that there's quite a bit of > research, like Campbell and Esselstyn's, that seems to show a > negative impact of small amounts of animal products but I don't think > we can say anything conclusive as yet. I'm trying NOT to recommend > veg*n at all on the basis of ethics but I recognize that it has to be > influencing me just as we are all influenced by our values whether we > are aware of it or not. Being vegan makes me 'different' so that > value showed more easily than the more common values. I'm on vacation > so I haven't the time to compose more thoughtful responses at the > moment. > > thanks for the discussion, > Marian > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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