harvesting lu jiao: animal rights issues?

[Guest guest]

i've been investigating delayed growth in childhood. a couple of posts have

recommended lu jiao or lu jiao sheng which is specific for tx this

disorder. as a vegan, i have avoided lu jiao as my understanding of the

harvesting process causes a great deal of pain and suffering to the deer.

the velvet is highly vascular, and my knowledge of the harvesting procedure

involves a bloody process, painful and stressful to the animals.

 

does anyone know something different about the harvesting procedure of lu

jiao?

 

--

Kath Bartlett, LAc, MS, BA UCLA

Oriental Medicine

Experienced, Dedicated, Effective

 

Flying Dragon Liniment:

Effective pain relief for muscles & joints

Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist

Available at Asheville Center for , or web order at:

https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1

 

 

Asheville Center For

70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two

Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777

kbartlett

www.AcupunctureAsheville.com

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Kath,

 

I am surprised to hear that there is actually a vegan TCM practitioner out

there. I was vegan for 10+ years-- I went back to vegetarian a few months ago.

I still have a strong belief in animal rights though.

 

I don't have any more information on Lu Jiao for you. If you get any though, I

am interested. I have generally avoided the use of animal products up to this

point, but I imagine sometime in the future I may be in a similar situation.

 

Thanks,

Ariel Solomon

alumni

CC: Chinese Traditional Medicine

acukath

Fri, 1 Feb 2008 10:55:32 -0500

harvesting lu jiao: animal rights issues?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

i've been investigating delayed growth in childhood. a couple of

posts have

 

recommended lu jiao or lu jiao sheng which is specific for tx this

 

disorder. as a vegan, i have avoided lu jiao as my understanding of the

 

harvesting process causes a great deal of pain and suffering to the deer.

 

the velvet is highly vascular, and my knowledge of the harvesting procedure

 

involves a bloody process, painful and stressful to the animals.

 

 

 

does anyone know something different about the harvesting procedure of lu

 

jiao?

 

 

 

--

 

Kath Bartlett, LAc, MS, BA UCLA

 

Oriental Medicine

 

Experienced, Dedicated, Effective

 

 

 

Flying Dragon Liniment:

 

Effective pain relief for muscles & joints

 

Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist

 

Available at Asheville Center for , or web order at:

 

https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1

 

 

 

Asheville Center For

 

70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two

 

Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777

 

kbartlett

 

www.AcupunctureAsheville.com

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

i imagine there's more than a few of us vegans out here, more than you'ld

realize. we just keep a low profile within the tcm community do to the

prejudice against our dietary priorities.

 

i did get a post sent off list (so i won't quote the source without

permission) who said that in china, the deer are slaughtered for venison,

and that collecting of the horns is like recycling a bi-product, such as

gathering oyster shells or turtle shells, after the animals have been killed

and eaten.

 

kb

 

On Feb 1, 2008 5:12 PM, Ariel Solomon <dragonferie wrote:

 

>

> Hi Kath,

>

> I am surprised to hear that there is actually a vegan TCM practitioner out

> there. I was vegan for 10+ years-- I went back to vegetarian a few months

> ago. I still have a strong belief in animal rights though.

>

> I don't have any more information on Lu Jiao for you. If you get any

> though, I am interested. I have generally avoided the use of animal products

> up to this point, but I imagine sometime in the future I may be in a similar

> situation.

>

> Thanks,

> Ariel Solomon

> alumni <alumni%40pacificcollege.edu>

> CC:

Chinese Traditional Medicine <Chinese Traditional Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> acukath <acukath%40gmail.com>

> Fri, 1 Feb 2008 10:55:32 -0500

> harvesting lu jiao: animal rights issues?

>

> i've been investigating delayed growth in childhood. a couple of posts

> have

>

> recommended lu jiao or lu jiao sheng which is specific for tx this

>

> disorder. as a vegan, i have avoided lu jiao as my understanding of the

>

> harvesting process causes a great deal of pain and suffering to the deer.

>

> the velvet is highly vascular, and my knowledge of the harvesting

> procedure

>

> involves a bloody process, painful and stressful to the animals.

>

> does anyone know something different about the harvesting procedure of lu

>

> jiao?

>

> --

>

>

>

> Oriental Medicine

>

> Experienced, Dedicated, Effective

>

> Flying Dragon Liniment:

>

> Effective pain relief for muscles & joints

>

> Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist

>

> Available at Asheville Center for , or web order at:

>

> https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1

>

> Asheville Center For

>

> 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two

>

> Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777

>

> kbartlett <kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com>

>

> www.AcupunctureAsheville.com <http://www.acupunctureasheville.com/>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Greetings Kath,

Thanks for bringing up the vegan/animal rights issue. Since I was the

who suggested lu jiao for 'failure to develop appropriately' issues - I also am

not completely comfortable with the idea of using deer antler. I have also been

a lacto-vegetarian for some 37 years (the yogis have used dairy products but no

meat, fish or eggs for centuries). I do not even use oyster shell calcium in

formulas.

I have been, perhaps naively, under the assumption that deer antler was

'harvested' at certain times of the year from herds that were cared for,

something like a herd of milk cows. Of course the harvesting does hurt, but I

was under the impression that the animal was not killed. The harvesting

technique would also depend on the source doing it.

Michael Tierra also posts to this group. His Planetary Herbal formulas

include Deer Antler with a handout explanation that the product is

gathered humanely. But, I will stop using it if it is the case lu jiao from

Chinese herb companies includes product from animals that were killed.

I would appreciate anyone enlightening me on this subject.

At this end, Patrick

 

 

Patrick D. Holiman

http://web.mac.com/pholitao

http://www.acu-polarity.com

 

 

[Guest guest]

As far as i am concerned, if it takes all of the deer losing their antlers in

velvet to help children with developmental issues, so be it. Even monks will use

animal products as medicine. The point is that it is medicine, and the patient

is what comes first. There are certain times where animal products are

necessary. Deer are not endangered. They are grown for this purpose. As far as i

am concerned, there is no issue.

 

Douglas Knapp

Doctoral Fellow, L.Ac.

Full Moon Acupuncture

1600 York Avenue

New York, NY 10028

212-734-1459

 

 

Patrick D. Holiman <patrick

Chinese Medicine

Saturday, February 2, 2008 10:38:31 AM

Re: harvesting lu jiao: animal rights issues?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Greetings Kath,

 

Thanks for bringing up the vegan/animal rights issue. Since I was the

who suggested lu jiao for 'failure to develop appropriately' issues - I also am

not completely comfortable with the idea of using deer antler. I have also been

a lacto-vegetarian for some 37 years (the yogis have used dairy products but no

meat, fish or eggs for centuries). I do not even use oyster shell calcium in

formulas.

 

I have been, perhaps naively, under the assumption that deer antler was

'harvested' at certain times of the year from herds that were cared for,

something like a herd of milk cows. Of course the harvesting does hurt, but I

was under the impression that the animal was not killed. The harvesting

technique would also depend on the source doing it.

 

Michael Tierra also posts to this group. His Planetary Herbal formulas

include Deer Antler with a handout explanation that the product is

gathered humanely. But, I will stop using it if it is the case lu jiao from

Chinese herb companies includes product from animals that were killed.

 

I would appreciate anyone enlightening me on this subject.

 

At this end, Patrick

 

 

 

 

 

Patrick D. Holiman

 

http://web.mac. com/pholitao

 

http://www.acu- polarity. com

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I think that the vegans among us need to stop being defensive against

the dogma of 'eating meat for blood deficiency'. While I am not

totally vegan (I've practiced macrobiotics for 38 years and do eat

some fish), I think in the present ecological circumstances and modern

lifestyle that meat eating can and should be kept to a minimum.

 

For a great book on the relationship between meat eating and serious

illnesses such as cancer, heart disease and other autoimmune diseases,

see " The China Study " by T. Colin Campbell, based on studies comparing

rural Chinese diets high in vegetables and low in animal foods to

urban diets higher in refined foods and animal products. It makes

quite a strong argument for modest meat eating.

 

 

On Feb 1, 2008, at 6:27 PM, wrote:

 

> i imagine there's more than a few of us vegans out here, more than

> you'ld

> realize. we just keep a low profile within the tcm community do to the

> prejudice against our dietary priorities.

>

> i did get a post sent off list (so i won't quote the source without

> permission) who said that in china, the deer are slaughtered for

> venison,

> and that collecting of the horns is like recycling a bi-product,

> such as

> gathering oyster shells or turtle shells, after the animals have

> been killed

> and eaten.

>

> kb

>

> On Feb 1, 2008 5:12 PM, Ariel Solomon <dragonferie wrote:

>

> >

> > Hi Kath,

> >

> > I am surprised to hear that there is actually a vegan TCM

> practitioner out

> > there. I was vegan for 10+ years-- I went back to vegetarian a few

> months

> > ago. I still have a strong belief in animal rights though.

> >

> > I don't have any more information on Lu Jiao for you. If you get any

> > though, I am interested. I have generally avoided the use of

> animal products

> > up to this point, but I imagine sometime in the future I may be in

> a similar

> > situation.

> >

> > Thanks,

> > Ariel Solomon

> > alumni <alumni%40pacificcollege.edu>

> > CC:

> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> @<Chinese Traditional Medicine%40>

> > acukath <acukath%40gmail.com>

> > Fri, 1 Feb 2008 10:55:32 -0500

> > harvesting lu jiao: animal rights issues?

> >

> > i've been investigating delayed growth in childhood. a couple of

> posts

> > have

> >

> > recommended lu jiao or lu jiao sheng which is specific for tx this

> >

> > disorder. as a vegan, i have avoided lu jiao as my understanding

> of the

> >

> > harvesting process causes a great deal of pain and suffering to

> the deer.

> >

> > the velvet is highly vascular, and my knowledge of the harvesting

> > procedure

> >

> > involves a bloody process, painful and stressful to the animals.

> >

> > does anyone know something different about the harvesting

> procedure of lu

> >

> > jiao?

> >

> > --

> >

> >

> >

> > Oriental Medicine

> >

> > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective

> >

> > Flying Dragon Liniment:

> >

> > Effective pain relief for muscles & joints

> >

> > Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist

> >

> > Available at Asheville Center for , or web order at:

> >

> > https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1

> >

> > Asheville Center For

> >

> > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two

> >

> > Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777

> >

> > kbartlett <kbartlett

> %40AcupunctureAsheville.com>

> >

> > www.AcupunctureAsheville.com <http://www.acupunctureasheville.com/>

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Z'ev,

 

Thanks for citing T. Colin Campbell at Cornell University. He's one of my own

mentors and personal heroes. His work in China in the late 1980s and early

1990s is landmark work in nutritional biochemistry. I got to know him and

connect with him in the early 1990s.

 

His research shows very clear correlations between the modern American meat diet

and [1] early puberty (10 years of age instead of 13), [2] elevated breast

cancer, [3] elevated prostate cancer, [4] generally more difficult menopausal

transitions, and [5] many correlations to what we now refer to in the last five

years as metabolic syndrome, which also is related of course to

hyperglycemia/refined carbs/insulin resistance.

 

Respectfully and gratefully,

Emmanuel Segmen

 

 

[Guest guest]

We have evolved to eat meat. We have a medium length digestive system, not a

long on or an herbivore nor the short on of a carnivore. We have the dentition

and the enzymes to digest it. I agree there are severe and substantial problems

with the meat industry. Also the American consumption is way out of proportion.

This does not mean that meat cannot be healthily consumed. I have not treated a

vegan or vegetarian who was not blood deficient, cold, encumbered by phlegm, or

a combination of them. This is not necessarily representative as these people

obviously have come to see me for treatment. I don't want those who are vegan or

vegetarian to be offended, what i write is not meant as an insult or attack in

any manner.

 

Douglas Knapp

Doctoral Fellow, L.Ac.

Full Moon Acupuncture

1600 York Avenue

New York, NY 10028

212-734-1459

 

 

<zrosenbe

Chinese Medicine

Saturday, February 2, 2008 9:19:11 PM

Re: harvesting lu jiao: animal rights issues?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think that the vegans among us need to stop being defensive

against

 

the dogma of 'eating meat for blood deficiency'. While I am not

 

totally vegan (I've practiced macrobiotics for 38 years and do eat

 

some fish), I think in the present ecological circumstances and modern

 

lifestyle that meat eating can and should be kept to a minimum.

 

 

 

For a great book on the relationship between meat eating and serious

 

illnesses such as cancer, heart disease and other autoimmune diseases,

 

see " The China Study " by T. Colin Campbell, based on studies comparing

 

rural Chinese diets high in vegetables and low in animal foods to

 

urban diets higher in refined foods and animal products. It makes

 

quite a strong argument for modest meat eating.

 

 

 

 

 

On Feb 1, 2008, at 6:27 PM, wrote:

 

 

 

> i imagine there's more than a few of us vegans out here, more than

 

> you'ld

 

> realize. we just keep a low profile within the tcm community do to the

 

> prejudice against our dietary priorities.

 

>

 

> i did get a post sent off list (so i won't quote the source without

 

> permission) who said that in china, the deer are slaughtered for

 

> venison,

 

> and that collecting of the horns is like recycling a bi-product,

 

> such as

 

> gathering oyster shells or turtle shells, after the animals have

 

> been killed

 

> and eaten.

 

>

 

> kb

 

>

 

> On Feb 1, 2008 5:12 PM, Ariel Solomon <dragonferie@ hotmail.com> wrote:

 

>

 

> >

 

> > Hi Kath,

 

> >

 

> > I am surprised to hear that there is actually a vegan TCM

 

> practitioner out

 

> > there. I was vegan for 10+ years-- I went back to vegetarian a few

 

> months

 

> > ago. I still have a strong belief in animal rights though.

 

> >

 

> > I don't have any more information on Lu Jiao for you. If you get any

 

> > though, I am interested. I have generally avoided the use of

 

> animal products

 

> > up to this point, but I imagine sometime in the future I may be in

 

> a similar

 

> > situation.

 

> >

 

> > Thanks,

 

> > Ariel Solomon

 

> > alumni@pacificcolle ge.edu <alumni%40pacificco llege.edu>

 

> > CC:

 

> traditional_ chinese_medicine

 

> <traditional_ chinese_medicine %40. com>

 

> > acukath (AT) gmail (DOT) com <acukath%40gmail. com>

 

> > Fri, 1 Feb 2008 10:55:32 -0500

 

> > harvesting lu jiao: animal rights issues?

 

> >

 

> > i've been investigating delayed growth in childhood. a couple of

 

> posts

 

> > have

 

> >

 

> > recommended lu jiao or lu jiao sheng which is specific for tx this

 

> >

 

> > disorder. as a vegan, i have avoided lu jiao as my understanding

 

> of the

 

> >

 

> > harvesting process causes a great deal of pain and suffering to

 

> the deer.

 

> >

 

> > the velvet is highly vascular, and my knowledge of the harvesting

 

> > procedure

 

> >

 

> > involves a bloody process, painful and stressful to the animals.

 

> >

 

> > does anyone know something different about the harvesting

 

> procedure of lu

 

> >

 

> > jiao?

 

> >

 

> > --

 

> >

 

> >

 

> >

 

> > Oriental Medicine

 

> >

 

> > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective

 

> >

 

> > Flying Dragon Liniment:

 

> >

 

> > Effective pain relief for muscles & joints

 

> >

 

> > Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist

 

> >

 

> > Available at Asheville Center for , or web order at:

 

> >

 

> > https://www. kamwo.com/ shop/product. php?productid= 17442 & cat= 0 & page=1

 

> >

 

> > Asheville Center For

 

> >

 

> > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two

 

> >

 

> > Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777

 

> >

 

> > kbartlett@Acupunctu reAsheville. com <kbartlett

 

> %40AcupunctureAshev ille.com>

 

> >

 

> > www.AcupunctureAshe ville.com <http://www.acupunct ureasheville. com/>

 

> >

 

> >

[Guest guest]

Douglas,

You are correct, and I agree with you, but the vegan spectrum is

very wide, from the lacto vegetarians of India, cooked vegetarian

diet, raw food, macrobiotic, with or without fish, etc., small amounts

of organic chicken, etc. Again, maximum flexibility is always

encouraged with these issues.

 

Having said that, I've seen more than a few teachers of Chinese

medicine who try to force vegan patients or students to eat meat no

matter what their condition is, while they live on American junk food

and KFC. That to me is intolerable.

 

 

 

 

On Feb 3, 2008, at 7:08 AM, Douglas Knapp wrote:

 

> We have evolved to eat meat. We have a medium length digestive

> system, not a long on or an herbivore nor the short on of a

> carnivore. We have the dentition and the enzymes to digest it. I

> agree there are severe and substantial problems with the meat

> industry. Also the American consumption is way out of proportion.

> This does not mean that meat cannot be healthily consumed. I have

> not treated a vegan or vegetarian who was not blood deficient, cold,

> encumbered by phlegm, or a combination of them. This is not

> necessarily representative as these people obviously have come to

> see me for treatment. I don't want those who are vegan or vegetarian

> to be offended, what i write is not meant as an insult or attack in

> any manner.

>

> Douglas Knapp

> Doctoral Fellow, L.Ac.

> Full Moon Acupuncture

> 1600 York Avenue

> New York, NY 10028

> 212-734-1459

>

>

> <zrosenbe

> Chinese Medicine

> Saturday, February 2, 2008 9:19:11 PM

> Re: harvesting lu jiao: animal rights issues?

>

> I think that the vegans among us need to stop being defensive against

>

> the dogma of 'eating meat for blood deficiency'. While I am not

>

> totally vegan (I've practiced macrobiotics for 38 years and do eat

>

> some fish), I think in the present ecological circumstances and modern

>

> lifestyle that meat eating can and should be kept to a minimum.

>

> For a great book on the relationship between meat eating and serious

>

> illnesses such as cancer, heart disease and other autoimmune diseases,

>

> see " The China Study " by T. Colin Campbell, based on studies comparing

>

> rural Chinese diets high in vegetables and low in animal foods to

>

> urban diets higher in refined foods and animal products. It makes

>

> quite a strong argument for modest meat eating.

>

>

>

> On Feb 1, 2008, at 6:27 PM, wrote:

>

> > i imagine there's more than a few of us vegans out here, more than

>

> > you'ld

>

> > realize. we just keep a low profile within the tcm community do to

> the

>

> > prejudice against our dietary priorities.

>

> >

>

> > i did get a post sent off list (so i won't quote the source without

>

> > permission) who said that in china, the deer are slaughtered for

>

> > venison,

>

> > and that collecting of the horns is like recycling a bi-product,

>

> > such as

>

> > gathering oyster shells or turtle shells, after the animals have

>

> > been killed

>

> > and eaten.

>

> >

>

> > kb

>

> >

>

> > On Feb 1, 2008 5:12 PM, Ariel Solomon <dragonferie@ hotmail.com>

> wrote:

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> > > Hi Kath,

>

> > >

>

> > > I am surprised to hear that there is actually a vegan TCM

>

> > practitioner out

>

> > > there. I was vegan for 10+ years-- I went back to vegetarian a few

>

> > months

>

> > > ago. I still have a strong belief in animal rights though.

>

> > >

>

> > > I don't have any more information on Lu Jiao for you. If you get

> any

>

> > > though, I am interested. I have generally avoided the use of

>

> > animal products

>

> > > up to this point, but I imagine sometime in the future I may be in

>

> > a similar

>

> > > situation.

>

> > >

>

> > > Thanks,

>

> > > Ariel Solomon

>

> > > alumni@pacificcolle ge.edu <alumni%40pacificco llege.edu>

>

> > > CC:

>

> > traditional_ chinese_medicine

>

> > <traditional_ chinese_medicine %40. com>

>

> > > acukath (AT) gmail (DOT) com <acukath%40gmail. com>

>

> > > Fri, 1 Feb 2008 10:55:32 -0500

>

> > > harvesting lu jiao: animal rights issues?

>

> > >

>

> > > i've been investigating delayed growth in childhood. a couple of

>

> > posts

>

> > > have

>

> > >

>

> > > recommended lu jiao or lu jiao sheng which is specific for tx this

>

> > >

>

> > > disorder. as a vegan, i have avoided lu jiao as my understanding

>

> > of the

>

> > >

>

> > > harvesting process causes a great deal of pain and suffering to

>

> > the deer.

>

> > >

>

> > > the velvet is highly vascular, and my knowledge of the harvesting

>

> > > procedure

>

> > >

>

> > > involves a bloody process, painful and stressful to the animals.

>

> > >

>

> > > does anyone know something different about the harvesting

>

> > procedure of lu

>

> > >

>

> > > jiao?

>

> > >

>

> > > --

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > > Oriental Medicine

>

> > >

>

> > > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective

>

> > >

>

> > > Flying Dragon Liniment:

>

> > >

>

> > > Effective pain relief for muscles & joints

>

> > >

>

> > > Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist

>

> > >

>

> > > Available at Asheville Center for , or web order

> at:

>

> > >

>

> > > https://www. kamwo.com/ shop/product. php?productid= 17442 & cat=

> 0 & page=1

>

> > >

>

> > > Asheville Center For

>

> > >

>

> > > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two

>

> > >

>

> > > Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777

>

> > >

>

> > > kbartlett@Acupunctu reAsheville. com <kbartlett

>

> > %40AcupunctureAshev ille.com>

>

> > >

>

> > > www.AcupunctureAshe ville.com <http://www.acupunct ureasheville. com/

> >

>

> > >

>

> > >

[Guest guest]

Z'ev,

Thank you for your support. As i said, there are grievous problems with the meat

industry. One can only counsel our patients to the benefits that a change in

lifestyle may have upon their health, and guide them in the proper application

of that change. We eat meat in our household, but it is always organic and it is

in moderation.

 

On another note: I wonder if you remember me. I was in one of your classes in

PCOM in '98 i believe, along with my girlfriend, Jacqueline Luna, who,

subsequently is my wife and mother of our three children. You treated her a

couple of times in your home.

 

Douglas Knapp

Doctoral Fellow, L.Ac.

Full Moon Acupuncture

1600 York Avenue

New York, NY 10028

212-734-1459

 

 

<zrosenbe

Chinese Medicine

Sunday, February 3, 2008 4:07:04 PM

Re: harvesting lu jiao: animal rights issues?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Douglas,

 

You are correct, and I agree with you, but the vegan spectrum is

 

very wide, from the lacto vegetarians of India, cooked vegetarian

 

diet, raw food, macrobiotic, with or without fish, etc., small amounts

 

of organic chicken, etc. Again, maximum flexibility is always

 

encouraged with these issues.

 

 

 

Having said that, I've seen more than a few teachers of Chinese

 

medicine who try to force vegan patients or students to eat meat no

 

matter what their condition is, while they live on American junk food

 

and KFC. That to me is intolerable.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Feb 3, 2008, at 7:08 AM, Douglas Knapp wrote:

 

 

 

> We have evolved to eat meat. We have a medium length digestive

 

> system, not a long on or an herbivore nor the short on of a

 

> carnivore. We have the dentition and the enzymes to digest it. I

 

> agree there are severe and substantial problems with the meat

 

> industry. Also the American consumption is way out of proportion.

 

> This does not mean that meat cannot be healthily consumed. I have

 

> not treated a vegan or vegetarian who was not blood deficient, cold,

 

> encumbered by phlegm, or a combination of them. This is not

 

> necessarily representative as these people obviously have come to

 

> see me for treatment. I don't want those who are vegan or vegetarian

 

> to be offended, what i write is not meant as an insult or attack in

 

> any manner.

 

>

 

> Douglas Knapp

 

> Doctoral Fellow, L.Ac.

 

> Full Moon Acupuncture

 

> 1600 York Avenue

 

> New York, NY 10028

 

> 212-734-1459

 

>

 

>

 

> <zrosenbe (AT) san (DOT) rr.com>

 

>

 

> Saturday, February 2, 2008 9:19:11 PM

 

> Re: harvesting lu jiao: animal rights issues?

 

>

 

> I think that the vegans among us need to stop being defensive against

 

>

 

> the dogma of 'eating meat for blood deficiency'. While I am not

 

>

 

> totally vegan (I've practiced macrobiotics for 38 years and do eat

 

>

 

> some fish), I think in the present ecological circumstances and modern

 

>

 

> lifestyle that meat eating can and should be kept to a minimum.

 

>

 

> For a great book on the relationship between meat eating and serious

 

>

 

> illnesses such as cancer, heart disease and other autoimmune diseases,

 

>

 

> see " The China Study " by T. Colin Campbell, based on studies comparing

 

>

 

> rural Chinese diets high in vegetables and low in animal foods to

 

>

 

> urban diets higher in refined foods and animal products. It makes

 

>

 

> quite a strong argument for modest meat eating.

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> On Feb 1, 2008, at 6:27 PM, wrote:

 

>

 

> > i imagine there's more than a few of us vegans out here, more than

 

>

 

> > you'ld

 

>

 

> > realize. we just keep a low profile within the tcm community do to

 

> the

 

>

 

> > prejudice against our dietary priorities.

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > i did get a post sent off list (so i won't quote the source without

 

>

 

> > permission) who said that in china, the deer are slaughtered for

 

>

 

> > venison,

 

>

 

> > and that collecting of the horns is like recycling a bi-product,

 

>

 

> > such as

 

>

 

> > gathering oyster shells or turtle shells, after the animals have

 

>

 

> > been killed

 

>

 

> > and eaten.

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > kb

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > On Feb 1, 2008 5:12 PM, Ariel Solomon <dragonferie@ hotmail.com>

 

> wrote:

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> > > Hi Kath,

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> > > I am surprised to hear that there is actually a vegan TCM

 

>

 

> > practitioner out

 

>

 

> > > there. I was vegan for 10+ years-- I went back to vegetarian a few

 

>

 

> > months

 

>

 

> > > ago. I still have a strong belief in animal rights though.

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> > > I don't have any more information on Lu Jiao for you. If you get

 

> any

 

>

 

> > > though, I am interested. I have generally avoided the use of

 

>

 

> > animal products

 

>

 

> > > up to this point, but I imagine sometime in the future I may be in

 

>

 

> > a similar

 

>

 

> > > situation.

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> > > Thanks,

 

>

 

> > > Ariel Solomon

 

>

 

> > > alumni@pacificcolle ge.edu <alumni%40pacificco llege.edu>

 

>

 

> > > CC:

 

>

 

> > traditional_ chinese_medicine

 

>

 

> > <traditional_ chinese_medicine %40. com>

 

>

 

> > > acukath (AT) gmail (DOT) com <acukath%40gmail. com>

 

>

 

> > > Fri, 1 Feb 2008 10:55:32 -0500

 

>

 

> > > harvesting lu jiao: animal rights issues?

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> > > i've been investigating delayed growth in childhood. a couple of

 

>

 

> > posts

 

>

 

> > > have

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> > > recommended lu jiao or lu jiao sheng which is specific for tx this

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> > > disorder. as a vegan, i have avoided lu jiao as my understanding

 

>

 

> > of the

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> > > harvesting process causes a great deal of pain and suffering to

 

>

 

> > the deer.

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> > > the velvet is highly vascular, and my knowledge of the harvesting

 

>

 

> > > procedure

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> > > involves a bloody process, painful and stressful to the animals.

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> > > does anyone know something different about the harvesting

 

>

 

> > procedure of lu

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> > > jiao?

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> > > --

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> > > Oriental Medicine

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> > > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> > > Flying Dragon Liniment:

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> > > Effective pain relief for muscles & joints

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> > > Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> > > Available at Asheville Center for , or web order

 

> at:

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> > > https://www. kamwo.com/ shop/product. php?productid= 17442 & cat=

 

> 0 & page=1

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> > > Asheville Center For

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> > > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> > > Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> > > kbartlett@Acupunctu reAsheville. com <kbartlett

 

>

 

> > %40AcupunctureAshev ille.com>

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> > > www.AcupunctureAshe ville.com <http://www.acupunct ureasheville. com/

 

> >

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> > >

[Guest guest]

Doug,

Yes, I remember both you and your wife. . . glad to hear of the

positive developments over the years. I wish you much success both in

your practice and raising a family. . . in Manhattan, no less!

 

Z'ev

On Feb 3, 2008, at 8:13 PM, Douglas Knapp wrote:

 

> Z'ev,

> Thank you for your support. As i said, there are grievous problems

> with the meat industry. One can only counsel our patients to the

> benefits that a change in lifestyle may have upon their health, and

> guide them in the proper application of that change. We eat meat in

> our household, but it is always organic and it is in moderation.

>

> On another note: I wonder if you remember me. I was in one of your

> classes in PCOM in '98 i believe, along with my girlfriend,

> Jacqueline Luna, who, subsequently is my wife and mother of our

> three children. You treated her a couple of times in your home.

>

> Douglas Knapp

> Doctoral Fellow, L.Ac.

> Full Moon Acupuncture

> 1600 York Avenue

> New York, NY 10028

> 212-734-1459

>

>

> <zrosenbe

> Chinese Medicine

> Sunday, February 3, 2008 4:07:04 PM

> Re: harvesting lu jiao: animal rights issues?

>

> Douglas,

>

> You are correct, and I agree with you, but the vegan spectrum is

>

> very wide, from the lacto vegetarians of India, cooked vegetarian

>

> diet, raw food, macrobiotic, with or without fish, etc., small amounts

>

> of organic chicken, etc. Again, maximum flexibility is always

>

> encouraged with these issues.

>

> Having said that, I've seen more than a few teachers of Chinese

>

> medicine who try to force vegan patients or students to eat meat no

>

> matter what their condition is, while they live on American junk food

>

> and KFC. That to me is intolerable.

>

>

>

> On Feb 3, 2008, at 7:08 AM, Douglas Knapp wrote:

>

> > We have evolved to eat meat. We have a medium length digestive

>

> > system, not a long on or an herbivore nor the short on of a

>

> > carnivore. We have the dentition and the enzymes to digest it. I

>

> > agree there are severe and substantial problems with the meat

>

> > industry. Also the American consumption is way out of proportion.

>

> > This does not mean that meat cannot be healthily consumed. I have

>

> > not treated a vegan or vegetarian who was not blood deficient, cold,

>

> > encumbered by phlegm, or a combination of them. This is not

>

> > necessarily representative as these people obviously have come to

>

> > see me for treatment. I don't want those who are vegan or vegetarian

>

> > to be offended, what i write is not meant as an insult or attack in

>

> > any manner.

>

> >

>

> > Douglas Knapp

>

> > Doctoral Fellow, L.Ac.

>

> > Full Moon Acupuncture

>

> > 1600 York Avenue

>

> > New York, NY 10028

>

> > 212-734-1459

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > <zrosenbe (AT) san (DOT) rr.com>

>

> >

>

> > Saturday, February 2, 2008 9:19:11 PM

>

> > Re: harvesting lu jiao: animal rights issues?

>

> >

>

> > I think that the vegans among us need to stop being defensive

> against

>

> >

>

> > the dogma of 'eating meat for blood deficiency'. While I am not

>

> >

>

> > totally vegan (I've practiced macrobiotics for 38 years and do eat

>

> >

>

> > some fish), I think in the present ecological circumstances and

> modern

>

> >

>

> > lifestyle that meat eating can and should be kept to a minimum.

>

> >

>

> > For a great book on the relationship between meat eating and serious

>

> >

>

> > illnesses such as cancer, heart disease and other autoimmune

> diseases,

>

> >

>

> > see " The China Study " by T. Colin Campbell, based on studies

> comparing

>

> >

>

> > rural Chinese diets high in vegetables and low in animal foods to

>

> >

>

> > urban diets higher in refined foods and animal products. It makes

>

> >

>

> > quite a strong argument for modest meat eating.

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > On Feb 1, 2008, at 6:27 PM, wrote:

>

> >

>

> > > i imagine there's more than a few of us vegans out here, more than

>

> >

>

> > > you'ld

>

> >

>

> > > realize. we just keep a low profile within the tcm community do to

>

> > the

>

> >

>

> > > prejudice against our dietary priorities.

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > i did get a post sent off list (so i won't quote the source

> without

>

> >

>

> > > permission) who said that in china, the deer are slaughtered for

>

> >

>

> > > venison,

>

> >

>

> > > and that collecting of the horns is like recycling a bi-product,

>

> >

>

> > > such as

>

> >

>

> > > gathering oyster shells or turtle shells, after the animals have

>

> >

>

> > > been killed

>

> >

>

> > > and eaten.

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > kb

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > On Feb 1, 2008 5:12 PM, Ariel Solomon <dragonferie@ hotmail.com>

>

> > wrote:

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > > Hi Kath,

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > > I am surprised to hear that there is actually a vegan TCM

>

> >

>

> > > practitioner out

>

> >

>

> > > > there. I was vegan for 10+ years-- I went back to vegetarian a

> few

>

> >

>

> > > months

>

> >

>

> > > > ago. I still have a strong belief in animal rights though.

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > > I don't have any more information on Lu Jiao for you. If you get

>

> > any

>

> >

>

> > > > though, I am interested. I have generally avoided the use of

>

> >

>

> > > animal products

>

> >

>

> > > > up to this point, but I imagine sometime in the future I may

> be in

>

> >

>

> > > a similar

>

> >

>

> > > > situation.

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > > Thanks,

>

> >

>

> > > > Ariel Solomon

>

> >

>

> > > > alumni@pacificcolle ge.edu <alumni%40pacificco llege.edu>

>

> >

>

> > > > CC:

>

> >

>

> > > traditional_ chinese_medicine

>

> >

>

> > > <traditional_ chinese_medicine %40.

> com>

>

> >

>

> > > > acukath (AT) gmail (DOT) com <acukath%40gmail. com>

>

> >

>

> > > > Fri, 1 Feb 2008 10:55:32 -0500

>

> >

>

> > > > harvesting lu jiao: animal rights issues?

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > > i've been investigating delayed growth in childhood. a couple of

>

> >

>

> > > posts

>

> >

>

> > > > have

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > > recommended lu jiao or lu jiao sheng which is specific for tx

> this

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > > disorder. as a vegan, i have avoided lu jiao as my understanding

>

> >

>

> > > of the

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > > harvesting process causes a great deal of pain and suffering to

>

> >

>

> > > the deer.

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > > the velvet is highly vascular, and my knowledge of the

> harvesting

>

> >

>

> > > > procedure

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > > involves a bloody process, painful and stressful to the animals.

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > > does anyone know something different about the harvesting

>

> >

>

> > > procedure of lu

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > > jiao?

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > > --

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > > Oriental Medicine

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > > Flying Dragon Liniment:

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > > Effective pain relief for muscles & joints

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > > Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > > Available at Asheville Center for , or web order

>

> > at:

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > > https://www. kamwo.com/ shop/product. php?productid= 17442 & cat=

>

> > 0 & page=1

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > > Asheville Center For

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > > Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > > kbartlett@Acupunctu reAsheville. com <kbartlett

>

> >

>

> > > %40AcupunctureAshev ille.com>

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > > www.AcupunctureAshe ville.com <http://www.acupunct

> ureasheville. com/

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > >

[Guest guest]

Hi Douglas,

 

My observation as a human anatomist-physiologist who also teaches

nutrition is that we have barely " evolved " to be an omnivore. In a

relaxed state our small intestine alone is 20 feet long, and in vivo

with muscle tone it's 13 feet long. I'd like to eat food with plant

fiber in every meal. Meat in very small amounts is okay for flavoring

food. Soluble fiber feeds our large intestinal flora while insoluble

fiber improves motility through what I view as a long intestinal tract.

 

I'll leave it to someone else to rationalize treating " cold " or " blood

deficiency " by adding meat to the diet. My sense of balance and well

being is predicated on a diet of 75% or more complex carbohydrates

(vegetables and fruit) along with at least an hour per day of fun

under-the-sky aerobic exercise. The latter gives me a good bmr, a

lucid mind and a good night's sleep.

 

The practitioners of merit that I study also insist (like you)that we

eat meat. When I look closely at their diet, I see about 2 or 3

ounces of meat per day and not every day. I'd call that " medicinal "

amounts, or basically enough to flavor their vegetables. Maybe this is

what you also had in mind. Cornell Professor T. Colin Campbell whom I

previously referenced would consider this level of meat eating a

" maximum " and probably restorative for most American diets that he's

studied.

 

Respectfully,

Emmanuel Segmen

 

Chinese Medicine , Douglas Knapp

<knappneedleman wrote:

>

> We have evolved to eat meat. We have a medium length digestive

system, not a long on or an herbivore nor the short on of a carnivore.

We have the dentition and the enzymes to digest it. I agree there are

severe and substantial problems with the meat industry. Also the

American consumption is way out of proportion. This does not mean that

meat cannot be healthily consumed. I have not treated a vegan or

vegetarian who was not blood deficient, cold, encumbered by phlegm, or

a combination of them. This is not necessarily representative as these

people obviously have come to see me for treatment. I don't want those

who are vegan or vegetarian to be offended, what i write is not meant

as an insult or attack in any manner.

>

> Douglas Knapp

> Doctoral Fellow, L.Ac.

> Full Moon Acupuncture

> 1600 York Avenue

> New York, NY 10028

> 212-734-1459

>

>

> <zrosenbe

> Chinese Medicine

> Saturday, February 2, 2008 9:19:11 PM

> Re: harvesting lu jiao: animal rights issues?

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

I think that the vegans among us need to stop being

defensive against

>

> the dogma of 'eating meat for blood deficiency'. While I am not

>

> totally vegan (I've practiced macrobiotics for 38 years and do eat

>

> some fish), I think in the present ecological circumstances and modern

>

> lifestyle that meat eating can and should be kept to a minimum.

>

>

>

> For a great book on the relationship between meat eating and serious

>

> illnesses such as cancer, heart disease and other autoimmune diseases,

>

> see " The China Study " by T. Colin Campbell, based on studies comparing

>

> rural Chinese diets high in vegetables and low in animal foods to

>

> urban diets higher in refined foods and animal products. It makes

>

> quite a strong argument for modest meat eating.

>

>

>

>

>

> On Feb 1, 2008, at 6:27 PM, wrote:

>

>

>

> > i imagine there's more than a few of us vegans out here, more than

>

> > you'ld

>

> > realize. we just keep a low profile within the tcm community do to the

>

> > prejudice against our dietary priorities.

>

> >

>

> > i did get a post sent off list (so i won't quote the source without

>

> > permission) who said that in china, the deer are slaughtered for

>

> > venison,

>

> > and that collecting of the horns is like recycling a bi-product,

>

> > such as

>

> > gathering oyster shells or turtle shells, after the animals have

>

> > been killed

>

> > and eaten.

>

> >

>

> > kb

>

> >

>

> > On Feb 1, 2008 5:12 PM, Ariel Solomon <dragonferie@ hotmail.com>

wrote:

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> > > Hi Kath,

>

> > >

>

> > > I am surprised to hear that there is actually a vegan TCM

>

> > practitioner out

>

> > > there. I was vegan for 10+ years-- I went back to vegetarian a few

>

> > months

>

> > > ago. I still have a strong belief in animal rights though.

>

> > >

>

> > > I don't have any more information on Lu Jiao for you. If you get any

>

> > > though, I am interested. I have generally avoided the use of

>

> > animal products

>

> > > up to this point, but I imagine sometime in the future I may be in

>

> > a similar

>

> > > situation.

>

> > >

>

> > > Thanks,

>

> > > Ariel Solomon

>

> > > alumni@pacificcolle ge.edu <alumni%40pacificco llege.edu>

>

> > > CC:

>

> > traditional_ chinese_medicine

>

> > <traditional_ chinese_medicine %40. com>

>

> > > acukath (AT) gmail (DOT) com <acukath%40gmail. com>

>

> > > Fri, 1 Feb 2008 10:55:32 -0500

>

> > > harvesting lu jiao: animal rights issues?

>

> > >

>

> > > i've been investigating delayed growth in childhood. a couple of

>

> > posts

>

> > > have

>

> > >

>

> > > recommended lu jiao or lu jiao sheng which is specific for tx this

>

> > >

>

> > > disorder. as a vegan, i have avoided lu jiao as my understanding

>

> > of the

>

> > >

>

> > > harvesting process causes a great deal of pain and suffering to

>

> > the deer.

>

> > >

>

> > > the velvet is highly vascular, and my knowledge of the harvesting

>

> > > procedure

>

> > >

>

> > > involves a bloody process, painful and stressful to the animals.

>

> > >

>

> > > does anyone know something different about the harvesting

>

> > procedure of lu

>

> > >

>

> > > jiao?

>

> > >

>

> > > --

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > > Oriental Medicine

>

> > >

>

> > > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective

>

> > >

>

> > > Flying Dragon Liniment:

>

> > >

>

> > > Effective pain relief for muscles & joints

>

> > >

>

> > > Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist

>

> > >

>

> > > Available at Asheville Center for , or web order at:

>

> > >

>

> > > https://www. kamwo.com/ shop/product. php?productid= 17442 & cat=

0 & page=1

>

> > >

>

> > > Asheville Center For

>

> > >

>

> > > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two

>

> > >

>

> > > Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777

>

> > >

>

> > > kbartlett@Acupunctu reAsheville. com <kbartlett

>

> > %40AcupunctureAshev ille.com>

>

> > >

>

> > > www.AcupunctureAshe ville.com <http://www.acupunct ureasheville.

com/>

>

> > >

>

> > >

[Guest guest]

Z'ev,

I am honored by the memory. The family is in Brooklyn and the practice in

Manhattan. Going on nine years, and busier every year.

 

Douglas Knapp

Doctoral Fellow, L.Ac.

Full Moon Acupuncture

1600 York Avenue

New York, NY 10028

212-734-1459

 

 

<zrosenbe

Chinese Medicine

Monday, February 4, 2008 12:09:33 AM

Re: harvesting lu jiao: animal rights issues?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Doug,

 

Yes, I remember both you and your wife. . . glad to hear of the

 

positive developments over the years. I wish you much success both in

 

your practice and raising a family. . . in Manhattan, no less!

 

 

 

Z'ev

 

On Feb 3, 2008, at 8:13 PM, Douglas Knapp wrote:

 

 

 

> Z'ev,

 

> Thank you for your support. As i said, there are grievous problems

 

> with the meat industry. One can only counsel our patients to the

 

> benefits that a change in lifestyle may have upon their health, and

 

> guide them in the proper application of that change. We eat meat in

 

> our household, but it is always organic and it is in moderation.

 

>

 

> On another note: I wonder if you remember me. I was in one of your

 

> classes in PCOM in '98 i believe, along with my girlfriend,

 

> Jacqueline Luna, who, subsequently is my wife and mother of our

 

> three children. You treated her a couple of times in your home.

 

>

 

> Douglas Knapp

 

> Doctoral Fellow, L.Ac.

 

> Full Moon Acupuncture

 

> 1600 York Avenue

 

> New York, NY 10028

 

> 212-734-1459

 

>

 

>

 

> <zrosenbe (AT) san (DOT) rr.com>

 

>

 

> Sunday, February 3, 2008 4:07:04 PM

 

> Re: harvesting lu jiao: animal rights issues?

 

>

 

> Douglas,

 

>

 

> You are correct, and I agree with you, but the vegan spectrum is

 

>

 

> very wide, from the lacto vegetarians of India, cooked vegetarian

 

>

 

> diet, raw food, macrobiotic, with or without fish, etc., small amounts

 

>

 

> of organic chicken, etc. Again, maximum flexibility is always

 

>

 

> encouraged with these issues.

 

>

 

> Having said that, I've seen more than a few teachers of Chinese

 

>

 

> medicine who try to force vegan patients or students to eat meat no

 

>

 

> matter what their condition is, while they live on American junk food

 

>

 

> and KFC. That to me is intolerable.

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> On Feb 3, 2008, at 7:08 AM, Douglas Knapp wrote:

 

>

 

> > We have evolved to eat meat. We have a medium length digestive

 

>

 

> > system, not a long on or an herbivore nor the short on of a

 

>

 

> > carnivore. We have the dentition and the enzymes to digest it. I

 

>

 

> > agree there are severe and substantial problems with the meat

 

>

 

> > industry. Also the American consumption is way out of proportion.

 

>

 

> > This does not mean that meat cannot be healthily consumed. I have

 

>

 

> > not treated a vegan or vegetarian who was not blood deficient, cold,

 

>

 

> > encumbered by phlegm, or a combination of them. This is not

 

>

 

> > necessarily representative as these people obviously have come to

 

>

 

> > see me for treatment. I don't want those who are vegan or vegetarian

 

>

 

> > to be offended, what i write is not meant as an insult or attack in

 

>

 

> > any manner.

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > Douglas Knapp

 

>

 

> > Doctoral Fellow, L.Ac.

 

>

 

> > Full Moon Acupuncture

 

>

 

> > 1600 York Avenue

 

>

 

> > New York, NY 10028

 

>

 

> > 212-734-1459

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > <zrosenbe (AT) san (DOT) rr.com>

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > Saturday, February 2, 2008 9:19:11 PM

 

>

 

> > Re: harvesting lu jiao: animal rights issues?

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > I think that the vegans among us need to stop being defensive

 

> against

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > the dogma of 'eating meat for blood deficiency'. While I am not

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > totally vegan (I've practiced macrobiotics for 38 years and do eat

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > some fish), I think in the present ecological circumstances and

 

> modern

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > lifestyle that meat eating can and should be kept to a minimum.

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > For a great book on the relationship between meat eating and serious

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > illnesses such as cancer, heart disease and other autoimmune

 

> diseases,

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > see " The China Study " by T. Colin Campbell, based on studies

 

> comparing

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > rural Chinese diets high in vegetables and low in animal foods to

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > urban diets higher in refined foods and animal products. It makes

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > quite a strong argument for modest meat eating.

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > On Feb 1, 2008, at 6:27 PM, wrote:

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > i imagine there's more than a few of us vegans out here, more than

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > you'ld

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > realize. we just keep a low profile within the tcm community do to

 

>

 

> > the

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > prejudice against our dietary priorities.

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > i did get a post sent off list (so i won't quote the source

 

> without

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > permission) who said that in china, the deer are slaughtered for

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > venison,

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > and that collecting of the horns is like recycling a bi-product,

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > such as

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > gathering oyster shells or turtle shells, after the animals have

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > been killed

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > and eaten.

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > kb

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > On Feb 1, 2008 5:12 PM, Ariel Solomon <dragonferie@ hotmail.com>

 

>

 

> > wrote:

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > > Hi Kath,

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > > I am surprised to hear that there is actually a vegan TCM

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > practitioner out

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > > there. I was vegan for 10+ years-- I went back to vegetarian a

 

> few

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > months

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > > ago. I still have a strong belief in animal rights though.

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > > I don't have any more information on Lu Jiao for you. If you get

 

>

 

> > any

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > > though, I am interested. I have generally avoided the use of

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > animal products

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > > up to this point, but I imagine sometime in the future I may

 

> be in

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > a similar

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > > situation.

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > > Thanks,

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > > Ariel Solomon

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > > alumni@pacificcolle ge.edu <alumni%40pacificco llege.edu>

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > > CC:

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > traditional_ chinese_medicine

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > <traditional_ chinese_medicine %40.

 

> com>

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > > acukath (AT) gmail (DOT) com <acukath%40gmail. com>

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > > Fri, 1 Feb 2008 10:55:32 -0500

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > > harvesting lu jiao: animal rights issues?

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > > i've been investigating delayed growth in childhood. a couple of

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > posts

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > > have

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > > recommended lu jiao or lu jiao sheng which is specific for tx

 

> this

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > > disorder. as a vegan, i have avoided lu jiao as my understanding

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > of the

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > > harvesting process causes a great deal of pain and suffering to

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > the deer.

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > > the velvet is highly vascular, and my knowledge of the

 

> harvesting

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > > procedure

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > > involves a bloody process, painful and stressful to the animals.

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > > does anyone know something different about the harvesting

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > procedure of lu

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > > jiao?

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > > --

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > > Oriental Medicine

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > > Flying Dragon Liniment:

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > > Effective pain relief for muscles & joints

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > > Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > > Available at Asheville Center for , or web order

 

>

 

> > at:

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > > https://www. kamwo.com/ shop/product. php?productid= 17442 & cat=

 

>

 

> > 0 & page=1

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > > Asheville Center For

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > > Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > > kbartlett@Acupunctu reAsheville. com <kbartlett

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > %40AcupunctureAshev ille.com>

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > > www.AcupunctureAshe ville.com <http://www.acupunct

 

> ureasheville. com/

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > >

[Guest guest]

Emmanuel,

I do not hold the view that meat must be eaten all the time, or at every meal,

but i do believe that it is an important part of maintaining a healthy diet. Of

course it is best that the meat is of the most natural source possible, wild

game being the best, as it has grown by the strictures that nature has placed

upon it. I also agree that we spend way too much time indoors, and running

around, swinging from trees (which i try to do every chance i get with my kids,

albeit way to infrequently) is an integral part of being healthy. Sleep is also

underrated in our American society, which i should probably be doing instead of

writing this. :-)

 

Douglas Knapp

Doctoral Fellow, L.Ac.

Full Moon Acupuncture

1600 York Avenue

New York, NY 10028

212-734-1459

 

 

Emmanuel Segmen <mrsegmen

Chinese Medicine

Monday, February 4, 2008 12:24:32 AM

Re: harvesting lu jiao: animal rights issues?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Douglas,

 

 

 

My observation as a human anatomist-physiolog ist who also teaches

 

nutrition is that we have barely " evolved " to be an omnivore. In a

 

relaxed state our small intestine alone is 20 feet long, and in vivo

 

with muscle tone it's 13 feet long. I'd like to eat food with plant

 

fiber in every meal. Meat in very small amounts is okay for flavoring

 

food. Soluble fiber feeds our large intestinal flora while insoluble

 

fiber improves motility through what I view as a long intestinal tract.

 

 

 

I'll leave it to someone else to rationalize treating " cold " or " blood

 

deficiency " by adding meat to the diet. My sense of balance and well

 

being is predicated on a diet of 75% or more complex carbohydrates

 

(vegetables and fruit) along with at least an hour per day of fun

 

under-the-sky aerobic exercise. The latter gives me a good bmr, a

 

lucid mind and a good night's sleep.

 

 

 

The practitioners of merit that I study also insist (like you)that we

 

eat meat. When I look closely at their diet, I see about 2 or 3

 

ounces of meat per day and not every day. I'd call that " medicinal "

 

amounts, or basically enough to flavor their vegetables. Maybe this is

 

what you also had in mind. Cornell Professor T. Colin Campbell whom I

 

previously referenced would consider this level of meat eating a

 

" maximum " and probably restorative for most American diets that he's

 

studied.

 

 

 

Respectfully,

 

Emmanuel Segmen

 

 

 

Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , Douglas Knapp

 

<knappneedleman@ ...> wrote:

 

>

 

> We have evolved to eat meat. We have a medium length digestive

 

system, not a long on or an herbivore nor the short on of a carnivore.

 

We have the dentition and the enzymes to digest it. I agree there are

 

severe and substantial problems with the meat industry. Also the

 

American consumption is way out of proportion. This does not mean that

 

meat cannot be healthily consumed. I have not treated a vegan or

 

vegetarian who was not blood deficient, cold, encumbered by phlegm, or

 

a combination of them. This is not necessarily representative as these

 

people obviously have come to see me for treatment. I don't want those

 

who are vegan or vegetarian to be offended, what i write is not meant

 

as an insult or attack in any manner.

 

>

 

> Douglas Knapp

 

> Doctoral Fellow, L.Ac.

 

> Full Moon Acupuncture

 

> 1600 York Avenue

 

> New York, NY 10028

 

> 212-734-1459

 

>

 

>

 

> <zrosenbe@.. .>

 

>

 

> Saturday, February 2, 2008 9:19:11 PM

 

> Re: harvesting lu jiao: animal rights issues?

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> I think that the vegans among us need to stop being

 

defensive against

 

>

 

> the dogma of 'eating meat for blood deficiency'. While I am not

 

>

 

> totally vegan (I've practiced macrobiotics for 38 years and do eat

 

>

 

> some fish), I think in the present ecological circumstances and modern

 

>

 

> lifestyle that meat eating can and should be kept to a minimum.

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> For a great book on the relationship between meat eating and serious

 

>

 

> illnesses such as cancer, heart disease and other autoimmune diseases,

 

>

 

> see " The China Study " by T. Colin Campbell, based on studies comparing

 

>

 

> rural Chinese diets high in vegetables and low in animal foods to

 

>

 

> urban diets higher in refined foods and animal products. It makes

 

>

 

> quite a strong argument for modest meat eating.

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> On Feb 1, 2008, at 6:27 PM, wrote:

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> > i imagine there's more than a few of us vegans out here, more than

 

>

 

> > you'ld

 

>

 

> > realize. we just keep a low profile within the tcm community do to the

 

>

 

> > prejudice against our dietary priorities.

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > i did get a post sent off list (so i won't quote the source without

 

>

 

> > permission) who said that in china, the deer are slaughtered for

 

>

 

> > venison,

 

>

 

> > and that collecting of the horns is like recycling a bi-product,

 

>

 

> > such as

 

>

 

> > gathering oyster shells or turtle shells, after the animals have

 

>

 

> > been killed

 

>

 

> > and eaten.

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > kb

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > On Feb 1, 2008 5:12 PM, Ariel Solomon <dragonferie@ hotmail.com>

 

wrote:

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> > > Hi Kath,

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> > > I am surprised to hear that there is actually a vegan TCM

 

>

 

> > practitioner out

 

>

 

> > > there. I was vegan for 10+ years-- I went back to vegetarian a few

 

>

 

> > months

 

>

 

> > > ago. I still have a strong belief in animal rights though.

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> > > I don't have any more information on Lu Jiao for you. If you get any

 

>

 

> > > though, I am interested. I have generally avoided the use of

 

>

 

> > animal products

 

>

 

> > > up to this point, but I imagine sometime in the future I may be in

 

>

 

> > a similar

 

>

 

> > > situation.

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> > > Thanks,

 

>

 

> > > Ariel Solomon

 

>

 

> > > alumni@pacificcolle ge.edu <alumni%40pacificco llege.edu>

 

>

 

> > > CC:

 

>

 

> > traditional_ chinese_medicine

 

>

 

> > <traditional_ chinese_medicine %40. com>

 

>

 

> > > acukath (AT) gmail (DOT) com <acukath%40gmail. com>

 

>

 

> > > Fri, 1 Feb 2008 10:55:32 -0500

 

>

 

> > > harvesting lu jiao: animal rights issues?

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> > > i've been investigating delayed growth in childhood. a couple of

 

>

 

> > posts

 

>

 

> > > have

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> > > recommended lu jiao or lu jiao sheng which is specific for tx this

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> > > disorder. as a vegan, i have avoided lu jiao as my understanding

 

>

 

> > of the

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> > > harvesting process causes a great deal of pain and suffering to

 

>

 

> > the deer.

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> > > the velvet is highly vascular, and my knowledge of the harvesting

 

>

 

> > > procedure

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> > > involves a bloody process, painful and stressful to the animals.

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> > > does anyone know something different about the harvesting

 

>

 

> > procedure of lu

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> > > jiao?

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> > > --

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> > > Oriental Medicine

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> > > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> > > Flying Dragon Liniment:

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> > > Effective pain relief for muscles & joints

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> > > Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> > > Available at Asheville Center for , or web order at:

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> > > https://www. kamwo.com/ shop/product. php?productid= 17442 & cat=

 

0 & page=1

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> > > Asheville Center For

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> > > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> > > Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> > > kbartlett@Acupunctu reAsheville. com <kbartlett

 

>

 

> > %40AcupunctureAshev ille.com>

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> > > www.AcupunctureAshe ville.com <http://www.acupunct ureasheville.

 

com/>

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> > >

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , " Patrick D.

Holiman " <patrick wrote:

> I have been, perhaps naively, under the assumption that deer

antler was 'harvested' at certain times of the year from herds that

were cared for, something like a herd of milk cows. Of course the

harvesting does hurt, but I was under the impression that the animal

was not killed. The harvesting technique would also depend on the

source doing it.

 

There are several deer antler products used in TCM. Lu jiao, the

mature antler, is the least commonly used- it is much weaker in terms

of its supplementing action, though it possesses the additional

ability to quicken the blood and is sometimes used for injuries. Lu

jiao jiao is the gelatin derived from boiling the antlers, and it is

commonly used (distinguished by its tendency to nourish blood and

essence, with the additional action of stopping bleeding). Lu jiao

shuang is the de-gelatinated antler, the dregs left over after the

gelatin is removed to make lu jiao jiao. It is used less commonly

than lu rong or lu jiao jiao, but it is more commonly used than lu

jiao- lu jiao shuang is most commonly used in gynecology (its

supplementing effect is weak but it possesses an astringent action

that is used to treat uterine bleeding or vaginal discharge).

 

By far the most famous deer antler product is lu rong, the highly

vascular young velvet antler. Velvet antler is harvested from live

deer under anesthesia. The deer are raised in captivity, and are

ultimately used for meat as well as their antlers, though the antlers

are collected for a few years before the deer is consumed. All farmed

deer require the antlers to be removed, otherwise the male deer will

injure each other by using their antlers to fight. Regardless of

whether or not the antlers are used in medicine, captive deer need to

have their antlers removed or else all the males must be separated or

killed so that they don't injure each other. The basic process is to

have the deer run freely so that the antlers get engorged with blood,

then they are anesthetized so that the antlers can be harvested. I've

met a number of Chinese deer farmers, and all of the farmers I have

met are closely concerned with the health and livelihood of their

deer. They don't want the deer to be injured or harmed unnecessarily.

 

After harvesting, lu rong is divided into xue rong (blood antlers) and

pai xue rong (antlers where the blood has been drained out). The

former is much stronger, the latter's claim to fame is that it can be

used to supplement very weak patients who cannot stand strong

supplementation.

 

Eric Brand

[Guest guest]

Eric,

 

Thank you for this information. It makes the harvesting seem more " humane " than

I had previously thought.

 

 

 

Eric Brand <smilinglotus wrote:

Velvet antler is harvested from live deer under anesthesia. The deer are raised

in captivity, and are ultimately used for meat as well as their antlers, though

the antlers are collected for a few years before the deer is consumed. All

farmed deer require the antlers to be removed, otherwise the male deer will

injure each other by using their antlers to fight. Regardless of whether or not

the antlers are used in medicine, captive deer need to have their antlers

removed or else all the males must be separated or killed so that they don't

injure each other... I've

met a number of Chinese deer farmers, and all of the farmers I have

met are closely concerned with the health and livelihood of their

deer. They don't want the deer to be injured or harmed unnecessarily.

 

 

 

 

 

Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. Try it now.

 

 

[Guest guest]

eric:

 

ditto. i really appreciate your thorough clarification of this thorny

issue. i few LAcs on the PCOM alumni list asked me to pass on any info i

gather on the issue. may i have your permission to forward your explanation

out?

 

thanks,

 

kath

 

On Feb 4, 2008 12:19 PM, < wrote:

 

> Eric,

>

> Thank you for this information. It makes the harvesting seem more " humane "

> than I had previously thought.

>

>

>

> Eric Brand <smilinglotus <smilinglotus%40>> wrote:

> Velvet antler is harvested from live deer under anesthesia. The deer are

> raised in captivity, and are ultimately used for meat as well as their

> antlers, though the antlers are collected for a few years before the deer is

> consumed. All farmed deer require the antlers to be removed, otherwise the

> male deer will injure each other by using their antlers to fight. Regardless

> of whether or not the antlers are used in medicine, captive deer need to

> have their antlers removed or else all the males must be separated or killed

> so that they don't injure each other... I've

> met a number of Chinese deer farmers, and all of the farmers I have

> met are closely concerned with the health and livelihood of their

> deer. They don't want the deer to be injured or harmed unnecessarily.

>

>

> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. Try it

> now.

>

>

[Guest guest]

I am enjoying following this thread on meat eating and veganism, etc.

As a naturopath and acupuncturist/chinese herbalist, I use the Blood

Type diet with patients in my practice.

 

I was a vegetarian for 15 years in a former life (I was a chemist back

then). After naturopathic school, I reluctantly started working with

others to use the blood type diet. I saw positive changes and

benefit. As a blood type O, I added meat back into my diet. I

definitely feel better with animal protein in my diet.

 

I realize this is far afield of TCM. However, I feel there is not a

" one size fits all " meal plan. What works for one of us may not work

for another and part of that IMHO, can be explained by blood type.

The other parts can come from TCM diagnoses of pulse, tongue and

taking symptoms into account (which can also manifest from lifestyle,

trauma, etc)

 

I agree with much of what has been said here. Being Blood Type O does

not mean eating excessive amounts of meat, only the 2-3 oz per sitting

suggested earlier and probably not needed even daily. And Type A tends

to feel better and body works better with a more vegetarian diet.

Blood Type B is mixed and Type AB, the most modern has the good and

bad of A and B.

 

It was very hard for me, spiritually and ethically to go back to

eating meat. It appears, however, to have been the right thing, for me.

[Guest guest]

Great to hear.

 

Z'ev

On Feb 3, 2008, at 10:46 PM, Douglas Knapp wrote:

 

> Z'ev,

> I am honored by the memory. The family is in Brooklyn and the

> practice in Manhattan. Going on nine years, and busier every year.

>

> Douglas Knapp

> Doctoral Fellow, L.Ac.

> Full Moon Acupuncture

> 1600 York Avenue

> New York, NY 10028

> 212-734-1459

>

>

> <zrosenbe

> Chinese Medicine

> Monday, February 4, 2008 12:09:33 AM

> Re: harvesting lu jiao: animal rights issues?

>

> Doug,

>

> Yes, I remember both you and your wife. . . glad to hear of the

>

> positive developments over the years. I wish you much success both in

>

> your practice and raising a family. . . in Manhattan, no less!

>

> Z'ev

>

> On Feb 3, 2008, at 8:13 PM, Douglas Knapp wrote:

>

> > Z'ev,

>

> > Thank you for your support. As i said, there are grievous problems

>

> > with the meat industry. One can only counsel our patients to the

>

> > benefits that a change in lifestyle may have upon their health, and

>

> > guide them in the proper application of that change. We eat meat in

>

> > our household, but it is always organic and it is in moderation.

>

> >

>

> > On another note: I wonder if you remember me. I was in one of your

>

> > classes in PCOM in '98 i believe, along with my girlfriend,

>

> > Jacqueline Luna, who, subsequently is my wife and mother of our

>

> > three children. You treated her a couple of times in your home.

>

> >

>

> > Douglas Knapp

>

> > Doctoral Fellow, L.Ac.

>

> > Full Moon Acupuncture

>

> > 1600 York Avenue

>

> > New York, NY 10028

>

> > 212-734-1459

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > <zrosenbe (AT) san (DOT) rr.com>

>

> >

>

> > Sunday, February 3, 2008 4:07:04 PM

>

> > Re: harvesting lu jiao: animal rights issues?

>

> >

>

> > Douglas,

>

> >

>

> > You are correct, and I agree with you, but the vegan spectrum is

>

> >

>

> > very wide, from the lacto vegetarians of India, cooked vegetarian

>

> >

>

> > diet, raw food, macrobiotic, with or without fish, etc., small

> amounts

>

> >

>

> > of organic chicken, etc. Again, maximum flexibility is always

>

> >

>

> > encouraged with these issues.

>

> >

>

> > Having said that, I've seen more than a few teachers of Chinese

>

> >

>

> > medicine who try to force vegan patients or students to eat meat no

>

> >

>

> > matter what their condition is, while they live on American junk

> food

>

> >

>

> > and KFC. That to me is intolerable.

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > On Feb 3, 2008, at 7:08 AM, Douglas Knapp wrote:

>

> >

>

> > > We have evolved to eat meat. We have a medium length digestive

>

> >

>

> > > system, not a long on or an herbivore nor the short on of a

>

> >

>

> > > carnivore. We have the dentition and the enzymes to digest it. I

>

> >

>

> > > agree there are severe and substantial problems with the meat

>

> >

>

> > > industry. Also the American consumption is way out of proportion.

>

> >

>

> > > This does not mean that meat cannot be healthily consumed. I have

>

> >

>

> > > not treated a vegan or vegetarian who was not blood deficient,

> cold,

>

> >

>

> > > encumbered by phlegm, or a combination of them. This is not

>

> >

>

> > > necessarily representative as these people obviously have come to

>

> >

>

> > > see me for treatment. I don't want those who are vegan or

> vegetarian

>

> >

>

> > > to be offended, what i write is not meant as an insult or attack

> in

>

> >

>

> > > any manner.

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > Douglas Knapp

>

> >

>

> > > Doctoral Fellow, L.Ac.

>

> >

>

> > > Full Moon Acupuncture

>

> >

>

> > > 1600 York Avenue

>

> >

>

> > > New York, NY 10028

>

> >

>

> > > 212-734-1459

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > <zrosenbe (AT) san (DOT) rr.com>

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > Saturday, February 2, 2008 9:19:11 PM

>

> >

>

> > > Re: harvesting lu jiao: animal rights issues?

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > I think that the vegans among us need to stop being defensive

>

> > against

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > the dogma of 'eating meat for blood deficiency'. While I am not

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > totally vegan (I've practiced macrobiotics for 38 years and do eat

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > some fish), I think in the present ecological circumstances and

>

> > modern

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > lifestyle that meat eating can and should be kept to a minimum.

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > For a great book on the relationship between meat eating and

> serious

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > illnesses such as cancer, heart disease and other autoimmune

>

> > diseases,

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > see " The China Study " by T. Colin Campbell, based on studies

>

> > comparing

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > rural Chinese diets high in vegetables and low in animal foods to

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > urban diets higher in refined foods and animal products. It makes

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > quite a strong argument for modest meat eating.

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > On Feb 1, 2008, at 6:27 PM, wrote:

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > i imagine there's more than a few of us vegans out here, more

> than

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > you'ld

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > realize. we just keep a low profile within the tcm community

> do to

>

> >

>

> > > the

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > prejudice against our dietary priorities.

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > i did get a post sent off list (so i won't quote the source

>

> > without

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > permission) who said that in china, the deer are slaughtered for

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > venison,

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > and that collecting of the horns is like recycling a bi-product,

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > such as

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > gathering oyster shells or turtle shells, after the animals have

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > been killed

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > and eaten.

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > kb

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > On Feb 1, 2008 5:12 PM, Ariel Solomon <dragonferie@ hotmail.com>

>

> >

>

> > > wrote:

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > >

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > > Hi Kath,

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > >

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > > I am surprised to hear that there is actually a vegan TCM

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > practitioner out

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > > there. I was vegan for 10+ years-- I went back to vegetarian a

>

> > few

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > months

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > > ago. I still have a strong belief in animal rights though.

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > >

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > > I don't have any more information on Lu Jiao for you. If you

> get

>

> >

>

> > > any

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > > though, I am interested. I have generally avoided the use of

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > animal products

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > > up to this point, but I imagine sometime in the future I may

>

> > be in

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > a similar

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > > situation.

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > >

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > > Thanks,

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > > Ariel Solomon

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > > alumni@pacificcolle ge.edu <alumni%40pacificco llege.edu>

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > > CC:

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > traditional_ chinese_medicine

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > <traditional_ chinese_medicine %40.

>

> > com>

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > > acukath (AT) gmail (DOT) com <acukath%40gmail. com>

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > > Fri, 1 Feb 2008 10:55:32 -0500

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > > harvesting lu jiao: animal rights issues?

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > >

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > > i've been investigating delayed growth in childhood. a

> couple of

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > posts

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > > have

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > >

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > > recommended lu jiao or lu jiao sheng which is specific for tx

>

> > this

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > >

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > > disorder. as a vegan, i have avoided lu jiao as my

> understanding

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > of the

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > >

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > > harvesting process causes a great deal of pain and suffering

> to

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > the deer.

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > >

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > > the velvet is highly vascular, and my knowledge of the

>

> > harvesting

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > > procedure

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > >

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > > involves a bloody process, painful and stressful to the

> animals.

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > >

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > > does anyone know something different about the harvesting

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > procedure of lu

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > >

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > > jiao?

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > >

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > > --

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > >

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > >

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > >

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > > Oriental Medicine

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > >

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > >

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > > Flying Dragon Liniment:

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > >

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > > Effective pain relief for muscles & joints

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > >

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > > Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > >

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > > Available at Asheville Center for , or web

> order

>

> >

>

> > > at:

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > >

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > > https://www. kamwo.com/ shop/product. php?productid=

> 17442 & cat=

>

> >

>

> > > 0 & page=1

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > >

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > > Asheville Center For

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > >

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > >

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > > Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > >

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > > kbartlett@Acupunctu reAsheville. com <kbartlett

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > %40AcupunctureAshev ille.com>

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > >

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > > www.AcupunctureAshe ville.com <http://www.acupunct

>

> > ureasheville. com/

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > >

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > >

[Guest guest]

yes, the vegan diet/lifestyle is definately not for everyone.

interestingly, i am type A.

 

i'ld like to correct something that was said earlier on this thread:

 

vegan means no animal products whatsoever, including honey. a very strick

vegan will not wear leather. of course most (99.9%) of vegans/vegetarians

will not wear fur for obvious reasons. 'nothing with a face'.

 

lacto-ovo vegetarians eat milk and eggs, or dairy products, but animals are

not killed.

 

fish or poultry eaters who do not eat red meat or pork are not vegetarians.

they just restrict red meat.

 

kath

On Feb 4, 2008 10:14 PM, natdoc48 <natdoc48 wrote:

 

> I am enjoying following this thread on meat eating and veganism, etc.

> As a naturopath and acupuncturist/chinese herbalist, I use the Blood

> Type diet with patients in my practice.

>

> I was a vegetarian for 15 years in a former life (I was a chemist back

> then). After naturopathic school, I reluctantly started working with

> others to use the blood type diet. I saw positive changes and

> benefit. As a blood type O, I added meat back into my diet. I

> definitely feel better with animal protein in my diet.

>

> I realize this is far afield of TCM. However, I feel there is not a

> " one size fits all " meal plan. What works for one of us may not work

> for another and part of that IMHO, can be explained by blood type.

> The other parts can come from TCM diagnoses of pulse, tongue and

> taking symptoms into account (which can also manifest from lifestyle,

> trauma, etc)

>

> I agree with much of what has been said here. Being Blood Type O does

> not mean eating excessive amounts of meat, only the 2-3 oz per sitting

> suggested earlier and probably not needed even daily. And Type A tends

> to feel better and body works better with a more vegetarian diet.

> Blood Type B is mixed and Type AB, the most modern has the good and

> bad of A and B.

>

> It was very hard for me, spiritually and ethically to go back to

> eating meat. It appears, however, to have been the right thing, for me.

>

>

>

 

 

 

--

Kath Bartlett, LAc, MS, BA UCLA

Oriental Medicine

Experienced, Dedicated, Effective

 

Flying Dragon Liniment:

Effective pain relief for muscles & joints

Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist

Available at Asheville Center for , or web order at:

https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1

 

 

Asheville Center For

70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two

Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777

kbartlett

www.AcupunctureAsheville.com