Guest guest Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 i've been investigating delayed growth in childhood. a couple of posts have recommended lu jiao or lu jiao sheng which is specific for tx this disorder. as a vegan, i have avoided lu jiao as my understanding of the harvesting process causes a great deal of pain and suffering to the deer. the velvet is highly vascular, and my knowledge of the harvesting procedure involves a bloody process, painful and stressful to the animals. does anyone know something different about the harvesting procedure of lu jiao? -- Kath Bartlett, LAc, MS, BA UCLA Oriental Medicine Experienced, Dedicated, Effective Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & joints Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist Available at Asheville Center for , or web order at: https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1 Asheville Center For 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 kbartlett www.AcupunctureAsheville.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 Hi Kath, I am surprised to hear that there is actually a vegan TCM practitioner out there. I was vegan for 10+ years-- I went back to vegetarian a few months ago. I still have a strong belief in animal rights though. I don't have any more information on Lu Jiao for you. If you get any though, I am interested. I have generally avoided the use of animal products up to this point, but I imagine sometime in the future I may be in a similar situation. Thanks, Ariel Solomon alumni CC: Chinese Traditional Medicine acukath Fri, 1 Feb 2008 10:55:32 -0500 harvesting lu jiao: animal rights issues? i've been investigating delayed growth in childhood. a couple of posts have recommended lu jiao or lu jiao sheng which is specific for tx this disorder. as a vegan, i have avoided lu jiao as my understanding of the harvesting process causes a great deal of pain and suffering to the deer. the velvet is highly vascular, and my knowledge of the harvesting procedure involves a bloody process, painful and stressful to the animals. does anyone know something different about the harvesting procedure of lu jiao? -- Kath Bartlett, LAc, MS, BA UCLA Oriental Medicine Experienced, Dedicated, Effective Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & joints Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist Available at Asheville Center for , or web order at: https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1 Asheville Center For 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 kbartlett www.AcupunctureAsheville.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2008 Report Share Posted February 2, 2008 i imagine there's more than a few of us vegans out here, more than you'ld realize. we just keep a low profile within the tcm community do to the prejudice against our dietary priorities. i did get a post sent off list (so i won't quote the source without permission) who said that in china, the deer are slaughtered for venison, and that collecting of the horns is like recycling a bi-product, such as gathering oyster shells or turtle shells, after the animals have been killed and eaten. kb On Feb 1, 2008 5:12 PM, Ariel Solomon <dragonferie wrote: > > Hi Kath, > > I am surprised to hear that there is actually a vegan TCM practitioner out > there. I was vegan for 10+ years-- I went back to vegetarian a few months > ago. I still have a strong belief in animal rights though. > > I don't have any more information on Lu Jiao for you. If you get any > though, I am interested. I have generally avoided the use of animal products > up to this point, but I imagine sometime in the future I may be in a similar > situation. > > Thanks, > Ariel Solomon > alumni <alumni%40pacificcollege.edu> > CC: Chinese Traditional Medicine <Chinese Traditional Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > acukath <acukath%40gmail.com> > Fri, 1 Feb 2008 10:55:32 -0500 > harvesting lu jiao: animal rights issues? > > i've been investigating delayed growth in childhood. a couple of posts > have > > recommended lu jiao or lu jiao sheng which is specific for tx this > > disorder. as a vegan, i have avoided lu jiao as my understanding of the > > harvesting process causes a great deal of pain and suffering to the deer. > > the velvet is highly vascular, and my knowledge of the harvesting > procedure > > involves a bloody process, painful and stressful to the animals. > > does anyone know something different about the harvesting procedure of lu > > jiao? > > -- > > > > Oriental Medicine > > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective > > Flying Dragon Liniment: > > Effective pain relief for muscles & joints > > Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist > > Available at Asheville Center for , or web order at: > > https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1 > > Asheville Center For > > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two > > Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 > > kbartlett <kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com> > > www.AcupunctureAsheville.com <http://www.acupunctureasheville.com/> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2008 Report Share Posted February 2, 2008 Greetings Kath, Thanks for bringing up the vegan/animal rights issue. Since I was the who suggested lu jiao for 'failure to develop appropriately' issues - I also am not completely comfortable with the idea of using deer antler. I have also been a lacto-vegetarian for some 37 years (the yogis have used dairy products but no meat, fish or eggs for centuries). I do not even use oyster shell calcium in formulas. I have been, perhaps naively, under the assumption that deer antler was 'harvested' at certain times of the year from herds that were cared for, something like a herd of milk cows. Of course the harvesting does hurt, but I was under the impression that the animal was not killed. The harvesting technique would also depend on the source doing it. Michael Tierra also posts to this group. His Planetary Herbal formulas include Deer Antler with a handout explanation that the product is gathered humanely. But, I will stop using it if it is the case lu jiao from Chinese herb companies includes product from animals that were killed. I would appreciate anyone enlightening me on this subject. At this end, Patrick Patrick D. Holiman http://web.mac.com/pholitao http://www.acu-polarity.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2008 Report Share Posted February 2, 2008 As far as i am concerned, if it takes all of the deer losing their antlers in velvet to help children with developmental issues, so be it. Even monks will use animal products as medicine. The point is that it is medicine, and the patient is what comes first. There are certain times where animal products are necessary. Deer are not endangered. They are grown for this purpose. As far as i am concerned, there is no issue. Douglas Knapp Doctoral Fellow, L.Ac. Full Moon Acupuncture 1600 York Avenue New York, NY 10028 212-734-1459 Patrick D. Holiman <patrick Chinese Medicine Saturday, February 2, 2008 10:38:31 AM Re: harvesting lu jiao: animal rights issues? Greetings Kath, Thanks for bringing up the vegan/animal rights issue. Since I was the who suggested lu jiao for 'failure to develop appropriately' issues - I also am not completely comfortable with the idea of using deer antler. I have also been a lacto-vegetarian for some 37 years (the yogis have used dairy products but no meat, fish or eggs for centuries). I do not even use oyster shell calcium in formulas. I have been, perhaps naively, under the assumption that deer antler was 'harvested' at certain times of the year from herds that were cared for, something like a herd of milk cows. Of course the harvesting does hurt, but I was under the impression that the animal was not killed. The harvesting technique would also depend on the source doing it. Michael Tierra also posts to this group. His Planetary Herbal formulas include Deer Antler with a handout explanation that the product is gathered humanely. But, I will stop using it if it is the case lu jiao from Chinese herb companies includes product from animals that were killed. I would appreciate anyone enlightening me on this subject. At this end, Patrick Patrick D. Holiman http://web.mac. com/pholitao http://www.acu- polarity. com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2008 Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 I think that the vegans among us need to stop being defensive against the dogma of 'eating meat for blood deficiency'. While I am not totally vegan (I've practiced macrobiotics for 38 years and do eat some fish), I think in the present ecological circumstances and modern lifestyle that meat eating can and should be kept to a minimum. For a great book on the relationship between meat eating and serious illnesses such as cancer, heart disease and other autoimmune diseases, see " The China Study " by T. Colin Campbell, based on studies comparing rural Chinese diets high in vegetables and low in animal foods to urban diets higher in refined foods and animal products. It makes quite a strong argument for modest meat eating. On Feb 1, 2008, at 6:27 PM, wrote: > i imagine there's more than a few of us vegans out here, more than > you'ld > realize. we just keep a low profile within the tcm community do to the > prejudice against our dietary priorities. > > i did get a post sent off list (so i won't quote the source without > permission) who said that in china, the deer are slaughtered for > venison, > and that collecting of the horns is like recycling a bi-product, > such as > gathering oyster shells or turtle shells, after the animals have > been killed > and eaten. > > kb > > On Feb 1, 2008 5:12 PM, Ariel Solomon <dragonferie wrote: > > > > > Hi Kath, > > > > I am surprised to hear that there is actually a vegan TCM > practitioner out > > there. I was vegan for 10+ years-- I went back to vegetarian a few > months > > ago. I still have a strong belief in animal rights though. > > > > I don't have any more information on Lu Jiao for you. If you get any > > though, I am interested. I have generally avoided the use of > animal products > > up to this point, but I imagine sometime in the future I may be in > a similar > > situation. > > > > Thanks, > > Ariel Solomon > > alumni <alumni%40pacificcollege.edu> > > CC: > Chinese Traditional Medicine > @<Chinese Traditional Medicine%40> > > acukath <acukath%40gmail.com> > > Fri, 1 Feb 2008 10:55:32 -0500 > > harvesting lu jiao: animal rights issues? > > > > i've been investigating delayed growth in childhood. a couple of > posts > > have > > > > recommended lu jiao or lu jiao sheng which is specific for tx this > > > > disorder. as a vegan, i have avoided lu jiao as my understanding > of the > > > > harvesting process causes a great deal of pain and suffering to > the deer. > > > > the velvet is highly vascular, and my knowledge of the harvesting > > procedure > > > > involves a bloody process, painful and stressful to the animals. > > > > does anyone know something different about the harvesting > procedure of lu > > > > jiao? > > > > -- > > > > > > > > Oriental Medicine > > > > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective > > > > Flying Dragon Liniment: > > > > Effective pain relief for muscles & joints > > > > Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist > > > > Available at Asheville Center for , or web order at: > > > > https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1 > > > > Asheville Center For > > > > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two > > > > Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 > > > > kbartlett <kbartlett > %40AcupunctureAsheville.com> > > > > www.AcupunctureAsheville.com <http://www.acupunctureasheville.com/> > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2008 Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 Z'ev, Thanks for citing T. Colin Campbell at Cornell University. He's one of my own mentors and personal heroes. His work in China in the late 1980s and early 1990s is landmark work in nutritional biochemistry. I got to know him and connect with him in the early 1990s. His research shows very clear correlations between the modern American meat diet and [1] early puberty (10 years of age instead of 13), [2] elevated breast cancer, [3] elevated prostate cancer, [4] generally more difficult menopausal transitions, and [5] many correlations to what we now refer to in the last five years as metabolic syndrome, which also is related of course to hyperglycemia/refined carbs/insulin resistance. Respectfully and gratefully, Emmanuel Segmen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2008 Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 We have evolved to eat meat. We have a medium length digestive system, not a long on or an herbivore nor the short on of a carnivore. We have the dentition and the enzymes to digest it. I agree there are severe and substantial problems with the meat industry. Also the American consumption is way out of proportion. This does not mean that meat cannot be healthily consumed. I have not treated a vegan or vegetarian who was not blood deficient, cold, encumbered by phlegm, or a combination of them. This is not necessarily representative as these people obviously have come to see me for treatment. I don't want those who are vegan or vegetarian to be offended, what i write is not meant as an insult or attack in any manner. Douglas Knapp Doctoral Fellow, L.Ac. Full Moon Acupuncture 1600 York Avenue New York, NY 10028 212-734-1459 <zrosenbe Chinese Medicine Saturday, February 2, 2008 9:19:11 PM Re: harvesting lu jiao: animal rights issues? I think that the vegans among us need to stop being defensive against the dogma of 'eating meat for blood deficiency'. While I am not totally vegan (I've practiced macrobiotics for 38 years and do eat some fish), I think in the present ecological circumstances and modern lifestyle that meat eating can and should be kept to a minimum. For a great book on the relationship between meat eating and serious illnesses such as cancer, heart disease and other autoimmune diseases, see " The China Study " by T. Colin Campbell, based on studies comparing rural Chinese diets high in vegetables and low in animal foods to urban diets higher in refined foods and animal products. It makes quite a strong argument for modest meat eating. On Feb 1, 2008, at 6:27 PM, wrote: > i imagine there's more than a few of us vegans out here, more than > you'ld > realize. we just keep a low profile within the tcm community do to the > prejudice against our dietary priorities. > > i did get a post sent off list (so i won't quote the source without > permission) who said that in china, the deer are slaughtered for > venison, > and that collecting of the horns is like recycling a bi-product, > such as > gathering oyster shells or turtle shells, after the animals have > been killed > and eaten. > > kb > > On Feb 1, 2008 5:12 PM, Ariel Solomon <dragonferie@ hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > Hi Kath, > > > > I am surprised to hear that there is actually a vegan TCM > practitioner out > > there. I was vegan for 10+ years-- I went back to vegetarian a few > months > > ago. I still have a strong belief in animal rights though. > > > > I don't have any more information on Lu Jiao for you. If you get any > > though, I am interested. I have generally avoided the use of > animal products > > up to this point, but I imagine sometime in the future I may be in > a similar > > situation. > > > > Thanks, > > Ariel Solomon > > alumni@pacificcolle ge.edu <alumni%40pacificco llege.edu> > > CC: > traditional_ chinese_medicine > <traditional_ chinese_medicine %40. com> > > acukath (AT) gmail (DOT) com <acukath%40gmail. com> > > Fri, 1 Feb 2008 10:55:32 -0500 > > harvesting lu jiao: animal rights issues? > > > > i've been investigating delayed growth in childhood. a couple of > posts > > have > > > > recommended lu jiao or lu jiao sheng which is specific for tx this > > > > disorder. as a vegan, i have avoided lu jiao as my understanding > of the > > > > harvesting process causes a great deal of pain and suffering to > the deer. > > > > the velvet is highly vascular, and my knowledge of the harvesting > > procedure > > > > involves a bloody process, painful and stressful to the animals. > > > > does anyone know something different about the harvesting > procedure of lu > > > > jiao? > > > > -- > > > > > > > > Oriental Medicine > > > > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective > > > > Flying Dragon Liniment: > > > > Effective pain relief for muscles & joints > > > > Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist > > > > Available at Asheville Center for , or web order at: > > > > https://www. kamwo.com/ shop/product. php?productid= 17442 & cat= 0 & page=1 > > > > Asheville Center For > > > > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two > > > > Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 > > > > kbartlett@Acupunctu reAsheville. com <kbartlett > %40AcupunctureAshev ille.com> > > > > www.AcupunctureAshe ville.com <http://www.acupunct ureasheville. com/> > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2008 Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 Douglas, You are correct, and I agree with you, but the vegan spectrum is very wide, from the lacto vegetarians of India, cooked vegetarian diet, raw food, macrobiotic, with or without fish, etc., small amounts of organic chicken, etc. Again, maximum flexibility is always encouraged with these issues. Having said that, I've seen more than a few teachers of Chinese medicine who try to force vegan patients or students to eat meat no matter what their condition is, while they live on American junk food and KFC. That to me is intolerable. On Feb 3, 2008, at 7:08 AM, Douglas Knapp wrote: > We have evolved to eat meat. We have a medium length digestive > system, not a long on or an herbivore nor the short on of a > carnivore. We have the dentition and the enzymes to digest it. I > agree there are severe and substantial problems with the meat > industry. Also the American consumption is way out of proportion. > This does not mean that meat cannot be healthily consumed. I have > not treated a vegan or vegetarian who was not blood deficient, cold, > encumbered by phlegm, or a combination of them. This is not > necessarily representative as these people obviously have come to > see me for treatment. I don't want those who are vegan or vegetarian > to be offended, what i write is not meant as an insult or attack in > any manner. > > Douglas Knapp > Doctoral Fellow, L.Ac. > Full Moon Acupuncture > 1600 York Avenue > New York, NY 10028 > 212-734-1459 > > > <zrosenbe > Chinese Medicine > Saturday, February 2, 2008 9:19:11 PM > Re: harvesting lu jiao: animal rights issues? > > I think that the vegans among us need to stop being defensive against > > the dogma of 'eating meat for blood deficiency'. While I am not > > totally vegan (I've practiced macrobiotics for 38 years and do eat > > some fish), I think in the present ecological circumstances and modern > > lifestyle that meat eating can and should be kept to a minimum. > > For a great book on the relationship between meat eating and serious > > illnesses such as cancer, heart disease and other autoimmune diseases, > > see " The China Study " by T. Colin Campbell, based on studies comparing > > rural Chinese diets high in vegetables and low in animal foods to > > urban diets higher in refined foods and animal products. It makes > > quite a strong argument for modest meat eating. > > > > On Feb 1, 2008, at 6:27 PM, wrote: > > > i imagine there's more than a few of us vegans out here, more than > > > you'ld > > > realize. we just keep a low profile within the tcm community do to > the > > > prejudice against our dietary priorities. > > > > > > i did get a post sent off list (so i won't quote the source without > > > permission) who said that in china, the deer are slaughtered for > > > venison, > > > and that collecting of the horns is like recycling a bi-product, > > > such as > > > gathering oyster shells or turtle shells, after the animals have > > > been killed > > > and eaten. > > > > > > kb > > > > > > On Feb 1, 2008 5:12 PM, Ariel Solomon <dragonferie@ hotmail.com> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Kath, > > > > > > > > I am surprised to hear that there is actually a vegan TCM > > > practitioner out > > > > there. I was vegan for 10+ years-- I went back to vegetarian a few > > > months > > > > ago. I still have a strong belief in animal rights though. > > > > > > > > I don't have any more information on Lu Jiao for you. If you get > any > > > > though, I am interested. I have generally avoided the use of > > > animal products > > > > up to this point, but I imagine sometime in the future I may be in > > > a similar > > > > situation. > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Ariel Solomon > > > > alumni@pacificcolle ge.edu <alumni%40pacificco llege.edu> > > > > CC: > > > traditional_ chinese_medicine > > > <traditional_ chinese_medicine %40. com> > > > > acukath (AT) gmail (DOT) com <acukath%40gmail. com> > > > > Fri, 1 Feb 2008 10:55:32 -0500 > > > > harvesting lu jiao: animal rights issues? > > > > > > > > i've been investigating delayed growth in childhood. a couple of > > > posts > > > > have > > > > > > > > recommended lu jiao or lu jiao sheng which is specific for tx this > > > > > > > > disorder. as a vegan, i have avoided lu jiao as my understanding > > > of the > > > > > > > > harvesting process causes a great deal of pain and suffering to > > > the deer. > > > > > > > > the velvet is highly vascular, and my knowledge of the harvesting > > > > procedure > > > > > > > > involves a bloody process, painful and stressful to the animals. > > > > > > > > does anyone know something different about the harvesting > > > procedure of lu > > > > > > > > jiao? > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oriental Medicine > > > > > > > > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective > > > > > > > > Flying Dragon Liniment: > > > > > > > > Effective pain relief for muscles & joints > > > > > > > > Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist > > > > > > > > Available at Asheville Center for , or web order > at: > > > > > > > > https://www. kamwo.com/ shop/product. php?productid= 17442 & cat= > 0 & page=1 > > > > > > > > Asheville Center For > > > > > > > > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two > > > > > > > > Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 > > > > > > > > kbartlett@Acupunctu reAsheville. com <kbartlett > > > %40AcupunctureAshev ille.com> > > > > > > > > www.AcupunctureAshe ville.com <http://www.acupunct ureasheville. com/ > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2008 Report Share Posted February 4, 2008 Z'ev, Thank you for your support. As i said, there are grievous problems with the meat industry. One can only counsel our patients to the benefits that a change in lifestyle may have upon their health, and guide them in the proper application of that change. We eat meat in our household, but it is always organic and it is in moderation. On another note: I wonder if you remember me. I was in one of your classes in PCOM in '98 i believe, along with my girlfriend, Jacqueline Luna, who, subsequently is my wife and mother of our three children. You treated her a couple of times in your home. Douglas Knapp Doctoral Fellow, L.Ac. Full Moon Acupuncture 1600 York Avenue New York, NY 10028 212-734-1459 <zrosenbe Chinese Medicine Sunday, February 3, 2008 4:07:04 PM Re: harvesting lu jiao: animal rights issues? Douglas, You are correct, and I agree with you, but the vegan spectrum is very wide, from the lacto vegetarians of India, cooked vegetarian diet, raw food, macrobiotic, with or without fish, etc., small amounts of organic chicken, etc. Again, maximum flexibility is always encouraged with these issues. Having said that, I've seen more than a few teachers of Chinese medicine who try to force vegan patients or students to eat meat no matter what their condition is, while they live on American junk food and KFC. That to me is intolerable. On Feb 3, 2008, at 7:08 AM, Douglas Knapp wrote: > We have evolved to eat meat. We have a medium length digestive > system, not a long on or an herbivore nor the short on of a > carnivore. We have the dentition and the enzymes to digest it. I > agree there are severe and substantial problems with the meat > industry. Also the American consumption is way out of proportion. > This does not mean that meat cannot be healthily consumed. I have > not treated a vegan or vegetarian who was not blood deficient, cold, > encumbered by phlegm, or a combination of them. This is not > necessarily representative as these people obviously have come to > see me for treatment. I don't want those who are vegan or vegetarian > to be offended, what i write is not meant as an insult or attack in > any manner. > > Douglas Knapp > Doctoral Fellow, L.Ac. > Full Moon Acupuncture > 1600 York Avenue > New York, NY 10028 > 212-734-1459 > > > <zrosenbe (AT) san (DOT) rr.com> > > Saturday, February 2, 2008 9:19:11 PM > Re: harvesting lu jiao: animal rights issues? > > I think that the vegans among us need to stop being defensive against > > the dogma of 'eating meat for blood deficiency'. While I am not > > totally vegan (I've practiced macrobiotics for 38 years and do eat > > some fish), I think in the present ecological circumstances and modern > > lifestyle that meat eating can and should be kept to a minimum. > > For a great book on the relationship between meat eating and serious > > illnesses such as cancer, heart disease and other autoimmune diseases, > > see " The China Study " by T. Colin Campbell, based on studies comparing > > rural Chinese diets high in vegetables and low in animal foods to > > urban diets higher in refined foods and animal products. It makes > > quite a strong argument for modest meat eating. > > > > On Feb 1, 2008, at 6:27 PM, wrote: > > > i imagine there's more than a few of us vegans out here, more than > > > you'ld > > > realize. we just keep a low profile within the tcm community do to > the > > > prejudice against our dietary priorities. > > > > > > i did get a post sent off list (so i won't quote the source without > > > permission) who said that in china, the deer are slaughtered for > > > venison, > > > and that collecting of the horns is like recycling a bi-product, > > > such as > > > gathering oyster shells or turtle shells, after the animals have > > > been killed > > > and eaten. > > > > > > kb > > > > > > On Feb 1, 2008 5:12 PM, Ariel Solomon <dragonferie@ hotmail.com> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Kath, > > > > > > > > I am surprised to hear that there is actually a vegan TCM > > > practitioner out > > > > there. I was vegan for 10+ years-- I went back to vegetarian a few > > > months > > > > ago. I still have a strong belief in animal rights though. > > > > > > > > I don't have any more information on Lu Jiao for you. If you get > any > > > > though, I am interested. I have generally avoided the use of > > > animal products > > > > up to this point, but I imagine sometime in the future I may be in > > > a similar > > > > situation. > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Ariel Solomon > > > > alumni@pacificcolle ge.edu <alumni%40pacificco llege.edu> > > > > CC: > > > traditional_ chinese_medicine > > > <traditional_ chinese_medicine %40. com> > > > > acukath (AT) gmail (DOT) com <acukath%40gmail. com> > > > > Fri, 1 Feb 2008 10:55:32 -0500 > > > > harvesting lu jiao: animal rights issues? > > > > > > > > i've been investigating delayed growth in childhood. a couple of > > > posts > > > > have > > > > > > > > recommended lu jiao or lu jiao sheng which is specific for tx this > > > > > > > > disorder. as a vegan, i have avoided lu jiao as my understanding > > > of the > > > > > > > > harvesting process causes a great deal of pain and suffering to > > > the deer. > > > > > > > > the velvet is highly vascular, and my knowledge of the harvesting > > > > procedure > > > > > > > > involves a bloody process, painful and stressful to the animals. > > > > > > > > does anyone know something different about the harvesting > > > procedure of lu > > > > > > > > jiao? > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oriental Medicine > > > > > > > > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective > > > > > > > > Flying Dragon Liniment: > > > > > > > > Effective pain relief for muscles & joints > > > > > > > > Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist > > > > > > > > Available at Asheville Center for , or web order > at: > > > > > > > > https://www. kamwo.com/ shop/product. php?productid= 17442 & cat= > 0 & page=1 > > > > > > > > Asheville Center For > > > > > > > > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two > > > > > > > > Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 > > > > > > > > kbartlett@Acupunctu reAsheville. com <kbartlett > > > %40AcupunctureAshev ille.com> > > > > > > > > www.AcupunctureAshe ville.com <http://www.acupunct ureasheville. com/ > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2008 Report Share Posted February 4, 2008 Doug, Yes, I remember both you and your wife. . . glad to hear of the positive developments over the years. I wish you much success both in your practice and raising a family. . . in Manhattan, no less! Z'ev On Feb 3, 2008, at 8:13 PM, Douglas Knapp wrote: > Z'ev, > Thank you for your support. As i said, there are grievous problems > with the meat industry. One can only counsel our patients to the > benefits that a change in lifestyle may have upon their health, and > guide them in the proper application of that change. We eat meat in > our household, but it is always organic and it is in moderation. > > On another note: I wonder if you remember me. I was in one of your > classes in PCOM in '98 i believe, along with my girlfriend, > Jacqueline Luna, who, subsequently is my wife and mother of our > three children. You treated her a couple of times in your home. > > Douglas Knapp > Doctoral Fellow, L.Ac. > Full Moon Acupuncture > 1600 York Avenue > New York, NY 10028 > 212-734-1459 > > > <zrosenbe > Chinese Medicine > Sunday, February 3, 2008 4:07:04 PM > Re: harvesting lu jiao: animal rights issues? > > Douglas, > > You are correct, and I agree with you, but the vegan spectrum is > > very wide, from the lacto vegetarians of India, cooked vegetarian > > diet, raw food, macrobiotic, with or without fish, etc., small amounts > > of organic chicken, etc. Again, maximum flexibility is always > > encouraged with these issues. > > Having said that, I've seen more than a few teachers of Chinese > > medicine who try to force vegan patients or students to eat meat no > > matter what their condition is, while they live on American junk food > > and KFC. That to me is intolerable. > > > > On Feb 3, 2008, at 7:08 AM, Douglas Knapp wrote: > > > We have evolved to eat meat. We have a medium length digestive > > > system, not a long on or an herbivore nor the short on of a > > > carnivore. We have the dentition and the enzymes to digest it. I > > > agree there are severe and substantial problems with the meat > > > industry. Also the American consumption is way out of proportion. > > > This does not mean that meat cannot be healthily consumed. I have > > > not treated a vegan or vegetarian who was not blood deficient, cold, > > > encumbered by phlegm, or a combination of them. This is not > > > necessarily representative as these people obviously have come to > > > see me for treatment. I don't want those who are vegan or vegetarian > > > to be offended, what i write is not meant as an insult or attack in > > > any manner. > > > > > > Douglas Knapp > > > Doctoral Fellow, L.Ac. > > > Full Moon Acupuncture > > > 1600 York Avenue > > > New York, NY 10028 > > > 212-734-1459 > > > > > > > > > <zrosenbe (AT) san (DOT) rr.com> > > > > > > Saturday, February 2, 2008 9:19:11 PM > > > Re: harvesting lu jiao: animal rights issues? > > > > > > I think that the vegans among us need to stop being defensive > against > > > > > > the dogma of 'eating meat for blood deficiency'. While I am not > > > > > > totally vegan (I've practiced macrobiotics for 38 years and do eat > > > > > > some fish), I think in the present ecological circumstances and > modern > > > > > > lifestyle that meat eating can and should be kept to a minimum. > > > > > > For a great book on the relationship between meat eating and serious > > > > > > illnesses such as cancer, heart disease and other autoimmune > diseases, > > > > > > see " The China Study " by T. Colin Campbell, based on studies > comparing > > > > > > rural Chinese diets high in vegetables and low in animal foods to > > > > > > urban diets higher in refined foods and animal products. It makes > > > > > > quite a strong argument for modest meat eating. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Feb 1, 2008, at 6:27 PM, wrote: > > > > > > > i imagine there's more than a few of us vegans out here, more than > > > > > > > you'ld > > > > > > > realize. we just keep a low profile within the tcm community do to > > > the > > > > > > > prejudice against our dietary priorities. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i did get a post sent off list (so i won't quote the source > without > > > > > > > permission) who said that in china, the deer are slaughtered for > > > > > > > venison, > > > > > > > and that collecting of the horns is like recycling a bi-product, > > > > > > > such as > > > > > > > gathering oyster shells or turtle shells, after the animals have > > > > > > > been killed > > > > > > > and eaten. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > kb > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Feb 1, 2008 5:12 PM, Ariel Solomon <dragonferie@ hotmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Kath, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am surprised to hear that there is actually a vegan TCM > > > > > > > practitioner out > > > > > > > > there. I was vegan for 10+ years-- I went back to vegetarian a > few > > > > > > > months > > > > > > > > ago. I still have a strong belief in animal rights though. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't have any more information on Lu Jiao for you. If you get > > > any > > > > > > > > though, I am interested. I have generally avoided the use of > > > > > > > animal products > > > > > > > > up to this point, but I imagine sometime in the future I may > be in > > > > > > > a similar > > > > > > > > situation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > Ariel Solomon > > > > > > > > alumni@pacificcolle ge.edu <alumni%40pacificco llege.edu> > > > > > > > > CC: > > > > > > > traditional_ chinese_medicine > > > > > > > <traditional_ chinese_medicine %40. > com> > > > > > > > > acukath (AT) gmail (DOT) com <acukath%40gmail. com> > > > > > > > > Fri, 1 Feb 2008 10:55:32 -0500 > > > > > > > > harvesting lu jiao: animal rights issues? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i've been investigating delayed growth in childhood. a couple of > > > > > > > posts > > > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > recommended lu jiao or lu jiao sheng which is specific for tx > this > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > disorder. as a vegan, i have avoided lu jiao as my understanding > > > > > > > of the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > harvesting process causes a great deal of pain and suffering to > > > > > > > the deer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the velvet is highly vascular, and my knowledge of the > harvesting > > > > > > > > procedure > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > involves a bloody process, painful and stressful to the animals. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > does anyone know something different about the harvesting > > > > > > > procedure of lu > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > jiao? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oriental Medicine > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Flying Dragon Liniment: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Effective pain relief for muscles & joints > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Available at Asheville Center for , or web order > > > at: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www. kamwo.com/ shop/product. php?productid= 17442 & cat= > > > 0 & page=1 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Asheville Center For > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > kbartlett@Acupunctu reAsheville. com <kbartlett > > > > > > > %40AcupunctureAshev ille.com> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www.AcupunctureAshe ville.com <http://www.acupunct > ureasheville. com/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2008 Report Share Posted February 4, 2008 Hi Douglas, My observation as a human anatomist-physiologist who also teaches nutrition is that we have barely " evolved " to be an omnivore. In a relaxed state our small intestine alone is 20 feet long, and in vivo with muscle tone it's 13 feet long. I'd like to eat food with plant fiber in every meal. Meat in very small amounts is okay for flavoring food. Soluble fiber feeds our large intestinal flora while insoluble fiber improves motility through what I view as a long intestinal tract. I'll leave it to someone else to rationalize treating " cold " or " blood deficiency " by adding meat to the diet. My sense of balance and well being is predicated on a diet of 75% or more complex carbohydrates (vegetables and fruit) along with at least an hour per day of fun under-the-sky aerobic exercise. The latter gives me a good bmr, a lucid mind and a good night's sleep. The practitioners of merit that I study also insist (like you)that we eat meat. When I look closely at their diet, I see about 2 or 3 ounces of meat per day and not every day. I'd call that " medicinal " amounts, or basically enough to flavor their vegetables. Maybe this is what you also had in mind. Cornell Professor T. Colin Campbell whom I previously referenced would consider this level of meat eating a " maximum " and probably restorative for most American diets that he's studied. Respectfully, Emmanuel Segmen Chinese Medicine , Douglas Knapp <knappneedleman wrote: > > We have evolved to eat meat. We have a medium length digestive system, not a long on or an herbivore nor the short on of a carnivore. We have the dentition and the enzymes to digest it. I agree there are severe and substantial problems with the meat industry. Also the American consumption is way out of proportion. This does not mean that meat cannot be healthily consumed. I have not treated a vegan or vegetarian who was not blood deficient, cold, encumbered by phlegm, or a combination of them. This is not necessarily representative as these people obviously have come to see me for treatment. I don't want those who are vegan or vegetarian to be offended, what i write is not meant as an insult or attack in any manner. > > Douglas Knapp > Doctoral Fellow, L.Ac. > Full Moon Acupuncture > 1600 York Avenue > New York, NY 10028 > 212-734-1459 > > > <zrosenbe > Chinese Medicine > Saturday, February 2, 2008 9:19:11 PM > Re: harvesting lu jiao: animal rights issues? > > > > > > > > I think that the vegans among us need to stop being defensive against > > the dogma of 'eating meat for blood deficiency'. While I am not > > totally vegan (I've practiced macrobiotics for 38 years and do eat > > some fish), I think in the present ecological circumstances and modern > > lifestyle that meat eating can and should be kept to a minimum. > > > > For a great book on the relationship between meat eating and serious > > illnesses such as cancer, heart disease and other autoimmune diseases, > > see " The China Study " by T. Colin Campbell, based on studies comparing > > rural Chinese diets high in vegetables and low in animal foods to > > urban diets higher in refined foods and animal products. It makes > > quite a strong argument for modest meat eating. > > > > > > On Feb 1, 2008, at 6:27 PM, wrote: > > > > > i imagine there's more than a few of us vegans out here, more than > > > you'ld > > > realize. we just keep a low profile within the tcm community do to the > > > prejudice against our dietary priorities. > > > > > > i did get a post sent off list (so i won't quote the source without > > > permission) who said that in china, the deer are slaughtered for > > > venison, > > > and that collecting of the horns is like recycling a bi-product, > > > such as > > > gathering oyster shells or turtle shells, after the animals have > > > been killed > > > and eaten. > > > > > > kb > > > > > > On Feb 1, 2008 5:12 PM, Ariel Solomon <dragonferie@ hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Kath, > > > > > > > > I am surprised to hear that there is actually a vegan TCM > > > practitioner out > > > > there. I was vegan for 10+ years-- I went back to vegetarian a few > > > months > > > > ago. I still have a strong belief in animal rights though. > > > > > > > > I don't have any more information on Lu Jiao for you. If you get any > > > > though, I am interested. I have generally avoided the use of > > > animal products > > > > up to this point, but I imagine sometime in the future I may be in > > > a similar > > > > situation. > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Ariel Solomon > > > > alumni@pacificcolle ge.edu <alumni%40pacificco llege.edu> > > > > CC: > > > traditional_ chinese_medicine > > > <traditional_ chinese_medicine %40. com> > > > > acukath (AT) gmail (DOT) com <acukath%40gmail. com> > > > > Fri, 1 Feb 2008 10:55:32 -0500 > > > > harvesting lu jiao: animal rights issues? > > > > > > > > i've been investigating delayed growth in childhood. a couple of > > > posts > > > > have > > > > > > > > recommended lu jiao or lu jiao sheng which is specific for tx this > > > > > > > > disorder. as a vegan, i have avoided lu jiao as my understanding > > > of the > > > > > > > > harvesting process causes a great deal of pain and suffering to > > > the deer. > > > > > > > > the velvet is highly vascular, and my knowledge of the harvesting > > > > procedure > > > > > > > > involves a bloody process, painful and stressful to the animals. > > > > > > > > does anyone know something different about the harvesting > > > procedure of lu > > > > > > > > jiao? > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oriental Medicine > > > > > > > > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective > > > > > > > > Flying Dragon Liniment: > > > > > > > > Effective pain relief for muscles & joints > > > > > > > > Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist > > > > > > > > Available at Asheville Center for , or web order at: > > > > > > > > https://www. kamwo.com/ shop/product. php?productid= 17442 & cat= 0 & page=1 > > > > > > > > Asheville Center For > > > > > > > > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two > > > > > > > > Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 > > > > > > > > kbartlett@Acupunctu reAsheville. com <kbartlett > > > %40AcupunctureAshev ille.com> > > > > > > > > www.AcupunctureAshe ville.com <http://www.acupunct ureasheville. com/> > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2008 Report Share Posted February 4, 2008 Z'ev, I am honored by the memory. The family is in Brooklyn and the practice in Manhattan. Going on nine years, and busier every year. Douglas Knapp Doctoral Fellow, L.Ac. Full Moon Acupuncture 1600 York Avenue New York, NY 10028 212-734-1459 <zrosenbe Chinese Medicine Monday, February 4, 2008 12:09:33 AM Re: harvesting lu jiao: animal rights issues? Doug, Yes, I remember both you and your wife. . . glad to hear of the positive developments over the years. I wish you much success both in your practice and raising a family. . . in Manhattan, no less! Z'ev On Feb 3, 2008, at 8:13 PM, Douglas Knapp wrote: > Z'ev, > Thank you for your support. As i said, there are grievous problems > with the meat industry. One can only counsel our patients to the > benefits that a change in lifestyle may have upon their health, and > guide them in the proper application of that change. We eat meat in > our household, but it is always organic and it is in moderation. > > On another note: I wonder if you remember me. I was in one of your > classes in PCOM in '98 i believe, along with my girlfriend, > Jacqueline Luna, who, subsequently is my wife and mother of our > three children. You treated her a couple of times in your home. > > Douglas Knapp > Doctoral Fellow, L.Ac. > Full Moon Acupuncture > 1600 York Avenue > New York, NY 10028 > 212-734-1459 > > > <zrosenbe (AT) san (DOT) rr.com> > > Sunday, February 3, 2008 4:07:04 PM > Re: harvesting lu jiao: animal rights issues? > > Douglas, > > You are correct, and I agree with you, but the vegan spectrum is > > very wide, from the lacto vegetarians of India, cooked vegetarian > > diet, raw food, macrobiotic, with or without fish, etc., small amounts > > of organic chicken, etc. Again, maximum flexibility is always > > encouraged with these issues. > > Having said that, I've seen more than a few teachers of Chinese > > medicine who try to force vegan patients or students to eat meat no > > matter what their condition is, while they live on American junk food > > and KFC. That to me is intolerable. > > > > On Feb 3, 2008, at 7:08 AM, Douglas Knapp wrote: > > > We have evolved to eat meat. We have a medium length digestive > > > system, not a long on or an herbivore nor the short on of a > > > carnivore. We have the dentition and the enzymes to digest it. I > > > agree there are severe and substantial problems with the meat > > > industry. Also the American consumption is way out of proportion. > > > This does not mean that meat cannot be healthily consumed. I have > > > not treated a vegan or vegetarian who was not blood deficient, cold, > > > encumbered by phlegm, or a combination of them. This is not > > > necessarily representative as these people obviously have come to > > > see me for treatment. I don't want those who are vegan or vegetarian > > > to be offended, what i write is not meant as an insult or attack in > > > any manner. > > > > > > Douglas Knapp > > > Doctoral Fellow, L.Ac. > > > Full Moon Acupuncture > > > 1600 York Avenue > > > New York, NY 10028 > > > 212-734-1459 > > > > > > > > > <zrosenbe (AT) san (DOT) rr.com> > > > > > > Saturday, February 2, 2008 9:19:11 PM > > > Re: harvesting lu jiao: animal rights issues? > > > > > > I think that the vegans among us need to stop being defensive > against > > > > > > the dogma of 'eating meat for blood deficiency'. While I am not > > > > > > totally vegan (I've practiced macrobiotics for 38 years and do eat > > > > > > some fish), I think in the present ecological circumstances and > modern > > > > > > lifestyle that meat eating can and should be kept to a minimum. > > > > > > For a great book on the relationship between meat eating and serious > > > > > > illnesses such as cancer, heart disease and other autoimmune > diseases, > > > > > > see " The China Study " by T. Colin Campbell, based on studies > comparing > > > > > > rural Chinese diets high in vegetables and low in animal foods to > > > > > > urban diets higher in refined foods and animal products. It makes > > > > > > quite a strong argument for modest meat eating. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Feb 1, 2008, at 6:27 PM, wrote: > > > > > > > i imagine there's more than a few of us vegans out here, more than > > > > > > > you'ld > > > > > > > realize. we just keep a low profile within the tcm community do to > > > the > > > > > > > prejudice against our dietary priorities. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i did get a post sent off list (so i won't quote the source > without > > > > > > > permission) who said that in china, the deer are slaughtered for > > > > > > > venison, > > > > > > > and that collecting of the horns is like recycling a bi-product, > > > > > > > such as > > > > > > > gathering oyster shells or turtle shells, after the animals have > > > > > > > been killed > > > > > > > and eaten. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > kb > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Feb 1, 2008 5:12 PM, Ariel Solomon <dragonferie@ hotmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Kath, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am surprised to hear that there is actually a vegan TCM > > > > > > > practitioner out > > > > > > > > there. I was vegan for 10+ years-- I went back to vegetarian a > few > > > > > > > months > > > > > > > > ago. I still have a strong belief in animal rights though. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't have any more information on Lu Jiao for you. If you get > > > any > > > > > > > > though, I am interested. I have generally avoided the use of > > > > > > > animal products > > > > > > > > up to this point, but I imagine sometime in the future I may > be in > > > > > > > a similar > > > > > > > > situation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > Ariel Solomon > > > > > > > > alumni@pacificcolle ge.edu <alumni%40pacificco llege.edu> > > > > > > > > CC: > > > > > > > traditional_ chinese_medicine > > > > > > > <traditional_ chinese_medicine %40. > com> > > > > > > > > acukath (AT) gmail (DOT) com <acukath%40gmail. com> > > > > > > > > Fri, 1 Feb 2008 10:55:32 -0500 > > > > > > > > harvesting lu jiao: animal rights issues? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i've been investigating delayed growth in childhood. a couple of > > > > > > > posts > > > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > recommended lu jiao or lu jiao sheng which is specific for tx > this > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > disorder. as a vegan, i have avoided lu jiao as my understanding > > > > > > > of the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > harvesting process causes a great deal of pain and suffering to > > > > > > > the deer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the velvet is highly vascular, and my knowledge of the > harvesting > > > > > > > > procedure > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > involves a bloody process, painful and stressful to the animals. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > does anyone know something different about the harvesting > > > > > > > procedure of lu > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > jiao? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oriental Medicine > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Flying Dragon Liniment: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Effective pain relief for muscles & joints > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Available at Asheville Center for , or web order > > > at: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www. kamwo.com/ shop/product. php?productid= 17442 & cat= > > > 0 & page=1 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Asheville Center For > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > kbartlett@Acupunctu reAsheville. com <kbartlett > > > > > > > %40AcupunctureAshev ille.com> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www.AcupunctureAshe ville.com <http://www.acupunct > ureasheville. com/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2008 Report Share Posted February 4, 2008 Emmanuel, I do not hold the view that meat must be eaten all the time, or at every meal, but i do believe that it is an important part of maintaining a healthy diet. Of course it is best that the meat is of the most natural source possible, wild game being the best, as it has grown by the strictures that nature has placed upon it. I also agree that we spend way too much time indoors, and running around, swinging from trees (which i try to do every chance i get with my kids, albeit way to infrequently) is an integral part of being healthy. Sleep is also underrated in our American society, which i should probably be doing instead of writing this. :-) Douglas Knapp Doctoral Fellow, L.Ac. Full Moon Acupuncture 1600 York Avenue New York, NY 10028 212-734-1459 Emmanuel Segmen <mrsegmen Chinese Medicine Monday, February 4, 2008 12:24:32 AM Re: harvesting lu jiao: animal rights issues? Hi Douglas, My observation as a human anatomist-physiolog ist who also teaches nutrition is that we have barely " evolved " to be an omnivore. In a relaxed state our small intestine alone is 20 feet long, and in vivo with muscle tone it's 13 feet long. I'd like to eat food with plant fiber in every meal. Meat in very small amounts is okay for flavoring food. Soluble fiber feeds our large intestinal flora while insoluble fiber improves motility through what I view as a long intestinal tract. I'll leave it to someone else to rationalize treating " cold " or " blood deficiency " by adding meat to the diet. My sense of balance and well being is predicated on a diet of 75% or more complex carbohydrates (vegetables and fruit) along with at least an hour per day of fun under-the-sky aerobic exercise. The latter gives me a good bmr, a lucid mind and a good night's sleep. The practitioners of merit that I study also insist (like you)that we eat meat. When I look closely at their diet, I see about 2 or 3 ounces of meat per day and not every day. I'd call that " medicinal " amounts, or basically enough to flavor their vegetables. Maybe this is what you also had in mind. Cornell Professor T. Colin Campbell whom I previously referenced would consider this level of meat eating a " maximum " and probably restorative for most American diets that he's studied. Respectfully, Emmanuel Segmen Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , Douglas Knapp <knappneedleman@ ...> wrote: > > We have evolved to eat meat. We have a medium length digestive system, not a long on or an herbivore nor the short on of a carnivore. We have the dentition and the enzymes to digest it. I agree there are severe and substantial problems with the meat industry. Also the American consumption is way out of proportion. This does not mean that meat cannot be healthily consumed. I have not treated a vegan or vegetarian who was not blood deficient, cold, encumbered by phlegm, or a combination of them. This is not necessarily representative as these people obviously have come to see me for treatment. I don't want those who are vegan or vegetarian to be offended, what i write is not meant as an insult or attack in any manner. > > Douglas Knapp > Doctoral Fellow, L.Ac. > Full Moon Acupuncture > 1600 York Avenue > New York, NY 10028 > 212-734-1459 > > > <zrosenbe@.. .> > > Saturday, February 2, 2008 9:19:11 PM > Re: harvesting lu jiao: animal rights issues? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think that the vegans among us need to stop being defensive against > > the dogma of 'eating meat for blood deficiency'. While I am not > > totally vegan (I've practiced macrobiotics for 38 years and do eat > > some fish), I think in the present ecological circumstances and modern > > lifestyle that meat eating can and should be kept to a minimum. > > > > For a great book on the relationship between meat eating and serious > > illnesses such as cancer, heart disease and other autoimmune diseases, > > see " The China Study " by T. Colin Campbell, based on studies comparing > > rural Chinese diets high in vegetables and low in animal foods to > > urban diets higher in refined foods and animal products. It makes > > quite a strong argument for modest meat eating. > > > > > > On Feb 1, 2008, at 6:27 PM, wrote: > > > > > i imagine there's more than a few of us vegans out here, more than > > > you'ld > > > realize. we just keep a low profile within the tcm community do to the > > > prejudice against our dietary priorities. > > > > > > i did get a post sent off list (so i won't quote the source without > > > permission) who said that in china, the deer are slaughtered for > > > venison, > > > and that collecting of the horns is like recycling a bi-product, > > > such as > > > gathering oyster shells or turtle shells, after the animals have > > > been killed > > > and eaten. > > > > > > kb > > > > > > On Feb 1, 2008 5:12 PM, Ariel Solomon <dragonferie@ hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Kath, > > > > > > > > I am surprised to hear that there is actually a vegan TCM > > > practitioner out > > > > there. I was vegan for 10+ years-- I went back to vegetarian a few > > > months > > > > ago. I still have a strong belief in animal rights though. > > > > > > > > I don't have any more information on Lu Jiao for you. If you get any > > > > though, I am interested. I have generally avoided the use of > > > animal products > > > > up to this point, but I imagine sometime in the future I may be in > > > a similar > > > > situation. > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Ariel Solomon > > > > alumni@pacificcolle ge.edu <alumni%40pacificco llege.edu> > > > > CC: > > > traditional_ chinese_medicine > > > <traditional_ chinese_medicine %40. com> > > > > acukath (AT) gmail (DOT) com <acukath%40gmail. com> > > > > Fri, 1 Feb 2008 10:55:32 -0500 > > > > harvesting lu jiao: animal rights issues? > > > > > > > > i've been investigating delayed growth in childhood. a couple of > > > posts > > > > have > > > > > > > > recommended lu jiao or lu jiao sheng which is specific for tx this > > > > > > > > disorder. as a vegan, i have avoided lu jiao as my understanding > > > of the > > > > > > > > harvesting process causes a great deal of pain and suffering to > > > the deer. > > > > > > > > the velvet is highly vascular, and my knowledge of the harvesting > > > > procedure > > > > > > > > involves a bloody process, painful and stressful to the animals. > > > > > > > > does anyone know something different about the harvesting > > > procedure of lu > > > > > > > > jiao? > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oriental Medicine > > > > > > > > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective > > > > > > > > Flying Dragon Liniment: > > > > > > > > Effective pain relief for muscles & joints > > > > > > > > Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist > > > > > > > > Available at Asheville Center for , or web order at: > > > > > > > > https://www. kamwo.com/ shop/product. php?productid= 17442 & cat= 0 & page=1 > > > > > > > > Asheville Center For > > > > > > > > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two > > > > > > > > Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 > > > > > > > > kbartlett@Acupunctu reAsheville. com <kbartlett > > > %40AcupunctureAshev ille.com> > > > > > > > > www.AcupunctureAshe ville.com <http://www.acupunct ureasheville. com/> > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2008 Report Share Posted February 4, 2008 Chinese Medicine , " Patrick D. Holiman " <patrick wrote: > I have been, perhaps naively, under the assumption that deer antler was 'harvested' at certain times of the year from herds that were cared for, something like a herd of milk cows. Of course the harvesting does hurt, but I was under the impression that the animal was not killed. The harvesting technique would also depend on the source doing it. There are several deer antler products used in TCM. Lu jiao, the mature antler, is the least commonly used- it is much weaker in terms of its supplementing action, though it possesses the additional ability to quicken the blood and is sometimes used for injuries. Lu jiao jiao is the gelatin derived from boiling the antlers, and it is commonly used (distinguished by its tendency to nourish blood and essence, with the additional action of stopping bleeding). Lu jiao shuang is the de-gelatinated antler, the dregs left over after the gelatin is removed to make lu jiao jiao. It is used less commonly than lu rong or lu jiao jiao, but it is more commonly used than lu jiao- lu jiao shuang is most commonly used in gynecology (its supplementing effect is weak but it possesses an astringent action that is used to treat uterine bleeding or vaginal discharge). By far the most famous deer antler product is lu rong, the highly vascular young velvet antler. Velvet antler is harvested from live deer under anesthesia. The deer are raised in captivity, and are ultimately used for meat as well as their antlers, though the antlers are collected for a few years before the deer is consumed. All farmed deer require the antlers to be removed, otherwise the male deer will injure each other by using their antlers to fight. Regardless of whether or not the antlers are used in medicine, captive deer need to have their antlers removed or else all the males must be separated or killed so that they don't injure each other. The basic process is to have the deer run freely so that the antlers get engorged with blood, then they are anesthetized so that the antlers can be harvested. I've met a number of Chinese deer farmers, and all of the farmers I have met are closely concerned with the health and livelihood of their deer. They don't want the deer to be injured or harmed unnecessarily. After harvesting, lu rong is divided into xue rong (blood antlers) and pai xue rong (antlers where the blood has been drained out). The former is much stronger, the latter's claim to fame is that it can be used to supplement very weak patients who cannot stand strong supplementation. Eric Brand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2008 Report Share Posted February 4, 2008 Eric, Thank you for this information. It makes the harvesting seem more " humane " than I had previously thought. Eric Brand <smilinglotus wrote: Velvet antler is harvested from live deer under anesthesia. The deer are raised in captivity, and are ultimately used for meat as well as their antlers, though the antlers are collected for a few years before the deer is consumed. All farmed deer require the antlers to be removed, otherwise the male deer will injure each other by using their antlers to fight. Regardless of whether or not the antlers are used in medicine, captive deer need to have their antlers removed or else all the males must be separated or killed so that they don't injure each other... I've met a number of Chinese deer farmers, and all of the farmers I have met are closely concerned with the health and livelihood of their deer. They don't want the deer to be injured or harmed unnecessarily. Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. Try it now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2008 Report Share Posted February 4, 2008 eric: ditto. i really appreciate your thorough clarification of this thorny issue. i few LAcs on the PCOM alumni list asked me to pass on any info i gather on the issue. may i have your permission to forward your explanation out? thanks, kath On Feb 4, 2008 12:19 PM, < wrote: > Eric, > > Thank you for this information. It makes the harvesting seem more " humane " > than I had previously thought. > > > > Eric Brand <smilinglotus <smilinglotus%40>> wrote: > Velvet antler is harvested from live deer under anesthesia. The deer are > raised in captivity, and are ultimately used for meat as well as their > antlers, though the antlers are collected for a few years before the deer is > consumed. All farmed deer require the antlers to be removed, otherwise the > male deer will injure each other by using their antlers to fight. Regardless > of whether or not the antlers are used in medicine, captive deer need to > have their antlers removed or else all the males must be separated or killed > so that they don't injure each other... I've > met a number of Chinese deer farmers, and all of the farmers I have > met are closely concerned with the health and livelihood of their > deer. They don't want the deer to be injured or harmed unnecessarily. > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. Try it > now. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2008 Report Share Posted February 5, 2008 I am enjoying following this thread on meat eating and veganism, etc. As a naturopath and acupuncturist/chinese herbalist, I use the Blood Type diet with patients in my practice. I was a vegetarian for 15 years in a former life (I was a chemist back then). After naturopathic school, I reluctantly started working with others to use the blood type diet. I saw positive changes and benefit. As a blood type O, I added meat back into my diet. I definitely feel better with animal protein in my diet. I realize this is far afield of TCM. However, I feel there is not a " one size fits all " meal plan. What works for one of us may not work for another and part of that IMHO, can be explained by blood type. The other parts can come from TCM diagnoses of pulse, tongue and taking symptoms into account (which can also manifest from lifestyle, trauma, etc) I agree with much of what has been said here. Being Blood Type O does not mean eating excessive amounts of meat, only the 2-3 oz per sitting suggested earlier and probably not needed even daily. And Type A tends to feel better and body works better with a more vegetarian diet. Blood Type B is mixed and Type AB, the most modern has the good and bad of A and B. It was very hard for me, spiritually and ethically to go back to eating meat. It appears, however, to have been the right thing, for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2008 Report Share Posted February 5, 2008 Great to hear. Z'ev On Feb 3, 2008, at 10:46 PM, Douglas Knapp wrote: > Z'ev, > I am honored by the memory. The family is in Brooklyn and the > practice in Manhattan. Going on nine years, and busier every year. > > Douglas Knapp > Doctoral Fellow, L.Ac. > Full Moon Acupuncture > 1600 York Avenue > New York, NY 10028 > 212-734-1459 > > > <zrosenbe > Chinese Medicine > Monday, February 4, 2008 12:09:33 AM > Re: harvesting lu jiao: animal rights issues? > > Doug, > > Yes, I remember both you and your wife. . . glad to hear of the > > positive developments over the years. I wish you much success both in > > your practice and raising a family. . . in Manhattan, no less! > > Z'ev > > On Feb 3, 2008, at 8:13 PM, Douglas Knapp wrote: > > > Z'ev, > > > Thank you for your support. As i said, there are grievous problems > > > with the meat industry. One can only counsel our patients to the > > > benefits that a change in lifestyle may have upon their health, and > > > guide them in the proper application of that change. We eat meat in > > > our household, but it is always organic and it is in moderation. > > > > > > On another note: I wonder if you remember me. I was in one of your > > > classes in PCOM in '98 i believe, along with my girlfriend, > > > Jacqueline Luna, who, subsequently is my wife and mother of our > > > three children. You treated her a couple of times in your home. > > > > > > Douglas Knapp > > > Doctoral Fellow, L.Ac. > > > Full Moon Acupuncture > > > 1600 York Avenue > > > New York, NY 10028 > > > 212-734-1459 > > > > > > > > > <zrosenbe (AT) san (DOT) rr.com> > > > > > > Sunday, February 3, 2008 4:07:04 PM > > > Re: harvesting lu jiao: animal rights issues? > > > > > > Douglas, > > > > > > You are correct, and I agree with you, but the vegan spectrum is > > > > > > very wide, from the lacto vegetarians of India, cooked vegetarian > > > > > > diet, raw food, macrobiotic, with or without fish, etc., small > amounts > > > > > > of organic chicken, etc. Again, maximum flexibility is always > > > > > > encouraged with these issues. > > > > > > Having said that, I've seen more than a few teachers of Chinese > > > > > > medicine who try to force vegan patients or students to eat meat no > > > > > > matter what their condition is, while they live on American junk > food > > > > > > and KFC. That to me is intolerable. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Feb 3, 2008, at 7:08 AM, Douglas Knapp wrote: > > > > > > > We have evolved to eat meat. We have a medium length digestive > > > > > > > system, not a long on or an herbivore nor the short on of a > > > > > > > carnivore. We have the dentition and the enzymes to digest it. I > > > > > > > agree there are severe and substantial problems with the meat > > > > > > > industry. Also the American consumption is way out of proportion. > > > > > > > This does not mean that meat cannot be healthily consumed. I have > > > > > > > not treated a vegan or vegetarian who was not blood deficient, > cold, > > > > > > > encumbered by phlegm, or a combination of them. This is not > > > > > > > necessarily representative as these people obviously have come to > > > > > > > see me for treatment. I don't want those who are vegan or > vegetarian > > > > > > > to be offended, what i write is not meant as an insult or attack > in > > > > > > > any manner. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Douglas Knapp > > > > > > > Doctoral Fellow, L.Ac. > > > > > > > Full Moon Acupuncture > > > > > > > 1600 York Avenue > > > > > > > New York, NY 10028 > > > > > > > 212-734-1459 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <zrosenbe (AT) san (DOT) rr.com> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Saturday, February 2, 2008 9:19:11 PM > > > > > > > Re: harvesting lu jiao: animal rights issues? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think that the vegans among us need to stop being defensive > > > against > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the dogma of 'eating meat for blood deficiency'. While I am not > > > > > > > > > > > > > > totally vegan (I've practiced macrobiotics for 38 years and do eat > > > > > > > > > > > > > > some fish), I think in the present ecological circumstances and > > > modern > > > > > > > > > > > > > > lifestyle that meat eating can and should be kept to a minimum. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For a great book on the relationship between meat eating and > serious > > > > > > > > > > > > > > illnesses such as cancer, heart disease and other autoimmune > > > diseases, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > see " The China Study " by T. Colin Campbell, based on studies > > > comparing > > > > > > > > > > > > > > rural Chinese diets high in vegetables and low in animal foods to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > urban diets higher in refined foods and animal products. It makes > > > > > > > > > > > > > > quite a strong argument for modest meat eating. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Feb 1, 2008, at 6:27 PM, wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i imagine there's more than a few of us vegans out here, more > than > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you'ld > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > realize. we just keep a low profile within the tcm community > do to > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > prejudice against our dietary priorities. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i did get a post sent off list (so i won't quote the source > > > without > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > permission) who said that in china, the deer are slaughtered for > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > venison, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and that collecting of the horns is like recycling a bi-product, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > such as > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > gathering oyster shells or turtle shells, after the animals have > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > been killed > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and eaten. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > kb > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Feb 1, 2008 5:12 PM, Ariel Solomon <dragonferie@ hotmail.com> > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Kath, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am surprised to hear that there is actually a vegan TCM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > practitioner out > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > there. I was vegan for 10+ years-- I went back to vegetarian a > > > few > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > months > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ago. I still have a strong belief in animal rights though. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't have any more information on Lu Jiao for you. If you > get > > > > > > > any > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > though, I am interested. I have generally avoided the use of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > animal products > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > up to this point, but I imagine sometime in the future I may > > > be in > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > a similar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > situation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ariel Solomon > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > alumni@pacificcolle ge.edu <alumni%40pacificco llege.edu> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > CC: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > traditional_ chinese_medicine > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <traditional_ chinese_medicine %40. > > > com> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > acukath (AT) gmail (DOT) com <acukath%40gmail. com> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fri, 1 Feb 2008 10:55:32 -0500 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > harvesting lu jiao: animal rights issues? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i've been investigating delayed growth in childhood. a > couple of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > posts > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > recommended lu jiao or lu jiao sheng which is specific for tx > > > this > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > disorder. as a vegan, i have avoided lu jiao as my > understanding > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > of the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > harvesting process causes a great deal of pain and suffering > to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the deer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the velvet is highly vascular, and my knowledge of the > > > harvesting > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > procedure > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > involves a bloody process, painful and stressful to the > animals. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > does anyone know something different about the harvesting > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > procedure of lu > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > jiao? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oriental Medicine > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Flying Dragon Liniment: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Effective pain relief for muscles & joints > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Available at Asheville Center for , or web > order > > > > > > > at: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www. kamwo.com/ shop/product. php?productid= > 17442 & cat= > > > > > > > 0 & page=1 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Asheville Center For > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > kbartlett@Acupunctu reAsheville. com <kbartlett > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > %40AcupunctureAshev ille.com> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www.AcupunctureAshe ville.com <http://www.acupunct > > > ureasheville. com/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2008 Report Share Posted February 6, 2008 yes, the vegan diet/lifestyle is definately not for everyone. interestingly, i am type A. i'ld like to correct something that was said earlier on this thread: vegan means no animal products whatsoever, including honey. a very strick vegan will not wear leather. of course most (99.9%) of vegans/vegetarians will not wear fur for obvious reasons. 'nothing with a face'. lacto-ovo vegetarians eat milk and eggs, or dairy products, but animals are not killed. fish or poultry eaters who do not eat red meat or pork are not vegetarians. they just restrict red meat. kath On Feb 4, 2008 10:14 PM, natdoc48 <natdoc48 wrote: > I am enjoying following this thread on meat eating and veganism, etc. > As a naturopath and acupuncturist/chinese herbalist, I use the Blood > Type diet with patients in my practice. > > I was a vegetarian for 15 years in a former life (I was a chemist back > then). After naturopathic school, I reluctantly started working with > others to use the blood type diet. I saw positive changes and > benefit. As a blood type O, I added meat back into my diet. I > definitely feel better with animal protein in my diet. > > I realize this is far afield of TCM. However, I feel there is not a > " one size fits all " meal plan. What works for one of us may not work > for another and part of that IMHO, can be explained by blood type. > The other parts can come from TCM diagnoses of pulse, tongue and > taking symptoms into account (which can also manifest from lifestyle, > trauma, etc) > > I agree with much of what has been said here. Being Blood Type O does > not mean eating excessive amounts of meat, only the 2-3 oz per sitting > suggested earlier and probably not needed even daily. And Type A tends > to feel better and body works better with a more vegetarian diet. > Blood Type B is mixed and Type AB, the most modern has the good and > bad of A and B. > > It was very hard for me, spiritually and ethically to go back to > eating meat. It appears, however, to have been the right thing, for me. > > > -- Kath Bartlett, LAc, MS, BA UCLA Oriental Medicine Experienced, Dedicated, Effective Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & joints Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist Available at Asheville Center for , or web order at: https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1 Asheville Center For 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 kbartlett www.AcupunctureAsheville.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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