6 Levels

January 31, 2008

One area of TCM that I never received much training in is the " 6

Levels of disease progression " . Pathogens enter the wei qi and go

through several levels including yang ming, shao yang, tai yang, etc?

I was wondering if anyone can offer me a brief description and better

yet references or books that would go into this idea more. For some

people with chronic diseases I wonder if knowing about this would help

get better results.

Thank you.

Brian

January 31, 2008

You need to read the Shang Han Lun. It is the basis of six levels.

Douglas Knapp

Doctoral Fellow, L.Ac.

Full Moon Acupuncture

1600 York Avenue

New York, NY 10028

212-734-1459

" bharasha " <bharasha

Chinese Medicine

Thursday, January 31, 2008 9:33:30 AM

6 Levels

One area of TCM that I never received much training in is the " 6

Levels of disease progression " . Pathogens enter the wei qi and go

through several levels including yang ming, shao yang, tai yang, etc?

I was wondering if anyone can offer me a brief description and better

yet references or books that would go into this idea more. For some

people with chronic diseases I wonder if knowing about this would help

get better results.

Thank you.

Brian

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January 31, 2008

Brian,

Get a copy of the Shang Han Lun, Wiseman/Mitchell/Ye version from

Paradigm Press, which will give you in-depth analysis of six channel

theory.

Again, I am amazed at the lacunae in many Chinese medical schools in

the West. Many of the questions fielded by this group should never

have had to be asked, they almost always point to a deficiency in the

depth of training in our colleges. Shang Han Lun is part of all

training in China, Japan and Korea, and to leave it out here is

inexcusable.

By the way, 'six levels' is an incorrect translation of 'liu jing',

jing meaning channel. It is being confused here with 'si fen', often

translated as four levels or aspects.

On Jan 31, 2008, at 6:33 AM, bharasha wrote:

> One area of TCM that I never received much training in is the " 6

> Levels of disease progression " . Pathogens enter the wei qi and go

> through several levels including yang ming, shao yang, tai yang, etc?

> I was wondering if anyone can offer me a brief description and better

> yet references or books that would go into this idea more. For some

> people with chronic diseases I wonder if knowing about this would help

> get better results.

>

> Thank you.

> Brian

>

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

February 1, 2008

I guess you TCM students just simply does not have time to explore

more in Chinese classical texts.I wonder if many can name the Big

Four classical texts.

You are not alone.I was told that some students from Middle East

have around 20 hours of Shung Han Lun lessons and even the Chinese

TCM students (some) are alienated tothe classics. When i was in

Chengdu U of TCM, a joke about the doctoral student was they would

rather study molecular biology than on Shung Han Lun.

Unfortunately, it is indispensable to master the classical text if

you want to prescribe and have clinical success.In ancient time,

doctors are judged according to their knowledge of classical texts.

Back to Brian's issue,six channel pattern identification is to

trace the stage of the pathogenis (the evil) but it mainly deals

with the external evils. Since he mentions the chronic disease, I

guess the focus may rest upon the miscellaneous disease part of

ZHANG, Zhong-jing ork. Once you identify the revelant organ(viscera)

and pathomechanism, you can tackle the problems with focus.

Besides Shung Han Lun, the book you can study is Jin Gui Yao Lue

(Sypnosis of Golden Chamber) which is the company copy of Shung Han

Lun (orignated from the same book and was separated into two). If

you or any practitioners are interested to improve clinical

efficacy, I am more than happy to lecture you on a one-to-one basis.

I am a major in Jin Gui during my graduate study in Chengdu (master

& acu phD), has ample teaching & clinical experiences and speaks

excellent American. I am also willing to share with you my clinical

success and effective formulas. My expertise is more on gyno and

dermo.

February 1, 2008

It's pretty important that we practitioners of Chinese

medicine learn our numbers. Jarrett (2003) p. 711

provides a model of numbers.

#1 To look and know

2 Yin-Yang Theory

3 Three heater diagnosis

4 Four divisions

5 Five elements

6 Six stages

7 Seven pathogens

8 Eight principles

9 Nine stars/divisions of the pulse

10 Ten Stems

11 Eleven zang

12 Twelve branches.

I still don't count so well.

Miki Shima is someone who's taken interest in the Six

stages (channels, ahem) through some novel

applications of homeopathics. He has presented some

of his own findings regarding the 6 stages and

" fu-xie " (lurking " crouching " pathogen). The company

Heel has based their whole detox approach on the 6

stages. They even combine homeopathic prescriptions

and use some Chinese herbs.

ciao,

y.c.

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February 1, 2008

Yangchu,

I just wanted to point out that the BHI homeopathic people

developed their 'six stage' pathogens theory independently many years

ago. I have a book called " Homeotoxicology " , written decades ago by

the BHI founder Dr. Reckeweg, where he delineates six stages of

toxicity in disease states. He knew nothing about Chinese medicine,

which makes it even more interesting. Miki adapted their approach to

his own mastery of Shang Han Lun and started using this system with

his clients. Miki, I should point out however, is a medical polymath

who has as wide a range of knowledge of different medical systems as

anyone I've encountered. However, he is grounded in deep scholarship

of Chinese and Japanese medicine, with a specialty in Shang Han Lun.

On Feb 1, 2008, at 3:41 PM, Yangchu Higgins wrote:

> Miki Shima is someone who's taken interest in the Six

> stages (channels, ahem) through some novel

> applications of homeopathics. He has presented some

> of his own findings regarding the 6 stages and

> " fu-xie " (lurking " crouching " pathogen). The company

> Heel has based their whole detox approach on the 6

> stages. They even combine homeopathic prescriptions

> and use some Chinese herbs.

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

February 2, 2008

Are there any other good books or resources in English to understand the

Shang Han Lun,

other than the one translated by Mitchell, Wiseman and Ye?

Looking for one which organizes the material and makes it easy to

understand.

Thanks.

J.Kokko

On Feb 1, 2008 3:55 PM, <zrosenbe wrote:

> Yangchu,

> I just wanted to point out that the BHI homeopathic people

> developed their 'six stage' pathogens theory independently many years

> ago. I have a book called " Homeotoxicology " , written decades ago by

> the BHI founder Dr. Reckeweg, where he delineates six stages of

> toxicity in disease states. He knew nothing about Chinese medicine,

> which makes it even more interesting. Miki adapted their approach to

> his own mastery of Shang Han Lun and started using this system with

> his clients. Miki, I should point out however, is a medical polymath

> who has as wide a range of knowledge of different medical systems as

> anyone I've encountered. However, he is grounded in deep scholarship

> of Chinese and Japanese medicine, with a specialty in Shang Han Lun.

>

> On Feb 1, 2008, at 3:41 PM, Yangchu Higgins wrote:

>

> > Miki Shima is someone who's taken interest in the Six

> > stages (channels, ahem) through some novel

> > applications of homeopathics. He has presented some

> > of his own findings regarding the 6 stages and

> > " fu-xie " (lurking " crouching " pathogen). The company

> > Heel has based their whole detox approach on the 6

> > stages. They even combine homeopathic prescriptions

> > and use some Chinese herbs.

>

> Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

> Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

> San Diego, Ca. 92122

>

February 2, 2008

Hi John

Unfortunately there is not much in the way of different translations

or commentaries on the Shang han lun in English, but if you are able

to go thru the entire book by Mitchell, you will learn many things

within their context and the commentaries alone are great

explanations not found any where in English, and if your having

difficulties understanding some of the terms then also you should

maybe get a copy of the practical dictionary of Chinese medicine by

Wiseman and Ye. It will definitely be the best investment in your

understanding of Chinese medicine besides learning Chinese.

Good luck

Gabe Fuentes

In Chinese Medicine , " "

<johnkokko wrote:

>

> Are there any other good books or resources in English to

understand the

> Shang Han Lun,

> other than the one translated by Mitchell, Wiseman and Ye?

> Looking for one which organizes the material and makes it easy to

> understand.

>

> Thanks.

>

> J.Kokko

>

> On Feb 1, 2008 3:55 PM, <zrosenbe wrote:

>

> > Yangchu,

> > I just wanted to point out that the BHI homeopathic people

> > developed their 'six stage' pathogens theory independently many

years

> > ago. I have a book called " Homeotoxicology " , written decades ago

by

> > the BHI founder Dr. Reckeweg, where he delineates six stages of

> > toxicity in disease states. He knew nothing about Chinese

medicine,

> > which makes it even more interesting. Miki adapted their

approach to

> > his own mastery of Shang Han Lun and started using this system

with

> > his clients. Miki, I should point out however, is a medical

polymath

> > who has as wide a range of knowledge of different medical

systems as

> > anyone I've encountered. However, he is grounded in deep

scholarship

> > of Chinese and Japanese medicine, with a specialty in Shang Han

Lun.

> >

> > On Feb 1, 2008, at 3:41 PM, Yangchu Higgins wrote:

> >

> > > Miki Shima is someone who's taken interest in the Six

> > > stages (channels, ahem) through some novel

> > > applications of homeopathics. He has presented some

> > > of his own findings regarding the 6 stages and

> > > " fu-xie " (lurking " crouching " pathogen). The company

> > > Heel has based their whole detox approach on the 6

> > > stages. They even combine homeopathic prescriptions

> > > and use some Chinese herbs.

> >

> > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

> > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

> > San Diego, Ca. 92122

> >

February 2, 2008

Heiner Fruehauf's website is dedicated to preserving and disseminating

experienced doctors experiences with classical Chinese medicine. This

includes Dr. Liu Lihong, who speaks and writes about the Shan Han Lun.

It costs a bit to become a 'member' of the forum, but there are hours

of videos and many translations that I think are well worth it.

Here is the link to the website:

http://www.classicalchinesemedicine.org/

Hope this helps,

Jennifer

Jennifer Tongren, MAOM, Lic.Ac

White Pine Healing Arts

86 Henry St.

Amherst, MA 01001

413-230-4400

http://www.axisacupuncture.com/

www.whitepinehealingarts.com

On Feb 2, 2008, at 6:02 AM, fuentes120 wrote:

>

> Hi John

> Unfortunately there is not much in the way of different translations

> or commentaries on the Shang han lun in English, but if you are able

> to go thru the entire book by Mitchell, you will learn many things

> within their context and the commentaries alone are great

> explanations not found any where in English, and if your having

> difficulties understanding some of the terms then also you should

> maybe get a copy of the practical dictionary of Chinese medicine by

> Wiseman and Ye. It will definitely be the best investment in your

> understanding of Chinese medicine besides learning Chinese.

> Good luck

> Gabe Fuentes

>

> In Chinese Medicine , " "

> <johnkokko wrote:

> >

> > Are there any other good books or resources in English to

> understand the

> > Shang Han Lun,

> > other than the one translated by Mitchell, Wiseman and Ye?

> > Looking for one which organizes the material and makes it easy to

> > understand.

> >

> > Thanks.

> >

> > J.Kokko

> >

> > On Feb 1, 2008 3:55 PM, <zrosenbe wrote:

> >

> > > Yangchu,

> > > I just wanted to point out that the BHI homeopathic people

> > > developed their 'six stage' pathogens theory independently many

> years

> > > ago. I have a book called " Homeotoxicology " , written decades ago

> by

> > > the BHI founder Dr. Reckeweg, where he delineates six stages of

> > > toxicity in disease states. He knew nothing about Chinese

> medicine,

> > > which makes it even more interesting. Miki adapted their

> approach to

> > > his own mastery of Shang Han Lun and started using this system

> with

> > > his clients. Miki, I should point out however, is a medical

> polymath

> > > who has as wide a range of knowledge of different medical

> systems as

> > > anyone I've encountered. However, he is grounded in deep

> scholarship

> > > of Chinese and Japanese medicine, with a specialty in Shang Han

> Lun.

> > >

> > > On Feb 1, 2008, at 3:41 PM, Yangchu Higgins wrote:

> > >

> > > > Miki Shima is someone who's taken interest in the Six

> > > > stages (channels, ahem) through some novel

> > > > applications of homeopathics. He has presented some

> > > > of his own findings regarding the 6 stages and

> > > > " fu-xie " (lurking " crouching " pathogen). The company

> > > > Heel has based their whole detox approach on the 6

> > > > stages. They even combine homeopathic prescriptions

> > > > and use some Chinese herbs.

> > >

> > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

> > > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

> > > San Diego, Ca. 92122

> > >

February 2, 2008

Thanks Gabe.

I do refer to the Practical Dictionary of ; was just looking

for something else

to make the concepts a bit clearer; I took two classes in the Shang han lun

in school,

have read through Mitchell et al.'s book and even had to memorize the

" important " phrases,

but it's still not cohesive enough to be able to practice or teach the

principles thoroughly;

Of course, the following representative formulas are ones we use often in

practice...

*tai yang j**ing wind* strike - gui zhi tang,

*tai yang jing cold* strike - ma huang tang

*tai yang fu* *water* accumulation - wu ling san

*tai yang fu blood *accumulation - tao he cheng qi tang

*shao yang* - xiao chai hu tang

*yang ming jing* - bai hu tang

*yang ming fu* - ...cheng qi tang

*tai yin* - li zhong tang

*shao yin heat* - huang lian e jiao tang

*shao yin cold *- si ni tang

*jue yin* - wu mei wan

Is there room for another book to be published about the Shang han lun in

English?

Mitchell et al 's book is surely comprehensive enough,

but what about a user manual with more charts and graphics to make the

software easier to use?

Just an idea.

Thanks.

Kokko

On Feb 2, 2008 3:02 AM, fuentes120 <fuentes120 wrote:

>

> Hi John

> Unfortunately there is not much in the way of different translations

> or commentaries on the Shang han lun in English, but if you are able

> to go thru the entire book by Mitchell, you will learn many things

> within their context and the commentaries alone are great

> explanations not found any where in English, and if your having

> difficulties understanding some of the terms then also you should

> maybe get a copy of the practical dictionary of Chinese medicine by

> Wiseman and Ye. It will definitely be the best investment in your

> understanding of Chinese medicine besides learning Chinese.

> Good luck

> Gabe Fuentes

>

> In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>,

> " "

>

> <johnkokko wrote:

> >

> > Are there any other good books or resources in English to

> understand the

> > Shang Han Lun,

> > other than the one translated by Mitchell, Wiseman and Ye?

> > Looking for one which organizes the material and makes it easy to

> > understand.

> >

> > Thanks.

> >

> > J.Kokko

> >

> > On Feb 1, 2008 3:55 PM, <zrosenbe wrote:

> >

> > > Yangchu,

> > > I just wanted to point out that the BHI homeopathic people

> > > developed their 'six stage' pathogens theory independently many

> years

> > > ago. I have a book called " Homeotoxicology " , written decades ago

> by

> > > the BHI founder Dr. Reckeweg, where he delineates six stages of

> > > toxicity in disease states. He knew nothing about Chinese

> medicine,

> > > which makes it even more interesting. Miki adapted their

> approach to

> > > his own mastery of Shang Han Lun and started using this system

> with

> > > his clients. Miki, I should point out however, is a medical

> polymath

> > > who has as wide a range of knowledge of different medical

> systems as

> > > anyone I've encountered. However, he is grounded in deep

> scholarship

> > > of Chinese and Japanese medicine, with a specialty in Shang Han

> Lun.

> > >

> > > On Feb 1, 2008, at 3:41 PM, Yangchu Higgins wrote:

> > >

> > > > Miki Shima is someone who's taken interest in the Six

> > > > stages (channels, ahem) through some novel

> > > > applications of homeopathics. He has presented some

> > > > of his own findings regarding the 6 stages and

> > > > " fu-xie " (lurking " crouching " pathogen). The company

> > > > Heel has based their whole detox approach on the 6

> > > > stages. They even combine homeopathic prescriptions

> > > > and use some Chinese herbs.

> > >

> > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

> > > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

> > > San Diego, Ca. 92122

> > >

February 3, 2008

Hi John

You may also want to check these two websites.

http://classicformulas.com/

http://arnaudversluys.com

These websites offer another approach to looking at the Shang han

lun.

Remember that the Mitchell translation is only one translation, but

there are dozens of differing opinions on the Shang han lun, as far

as approach and clinical relevance.

Gabe Fuentes

Chinese Medicine , " "

<johnkokko wrote:

>

> Thanks Gabe.

> I do refer to the Practical Dictionary of ; was

just looking

> for something else

> to make the concepts a bit clearer; I took two classes in the

Shang han lun

> in school,

> have read through Mitchell et al.'s book and even had to memorize

the

> " important " phrases,

> but it's still not cohesive enough to be able to practice or teach

the

> principles thoroughly;

>

> Of course, the following representative formulas are ones we use

often in

> practice...

> *tai yang j**ing wind* strike - gui zhi tang,

> *tai yang jing cold* strike - ma huang tang

> *tai yang fu* *water* accumulation - wu ling san

> *tai yang fu blood *accumulation - tao he cheng qi tang

> *shao yang* - xiao chai hu tang

> *yang ming jing* - bai hu tang

> *yang ming fu* - ...cheng qi tang

>

> *tai yin* - li zhong tang

> *shao yin heat* - huang lian e jiao tang

> *shao yin cold *- si ni tang

> *jue yin* - wu mei wan

>

> Is there room for another book to be published about the Shang han

lun in

> English?

> Mitchell et al 's book is surely comprehensive enough,

> but what about a user manual with more charts and graphics to make

the

> software easier to use?

> Just an idea.

>

> Thanks.

> Kokko

>

> On Feb 2, 2008 3:02 AM, fuentes120 <fuentes120 wrote:

>

> >

> > Hi John

> > Unfortunately there is not much in the way of different

translations

> > or commentaries on the Shang han lun in English, but if you are

able

> > to go thru the entire book by Mitchell, you will learn many

things

> > within their context and the commentaries alone are great

> > explanations not found any where in English, and if your having

> > difficulties understanding some of the terms then also you should

> > maybe get a copy of the practical dictionary of Chinese medicine

by

> > Wiseman and Ye. It will definitely be the best investment in your

> > understanding of Chinese medicine besides learning Chinese.

> > Good luck

> > Gabe Fuentes

> >

> > In

Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chinese_Medi

cine%40>,

> > " "

> >

> > <johnkokko@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Are there any other good books or resources in English to

> > understand the

> > > Shang Han Lun,

> > > other than the one translated by Mitchell, Wiseman and Ye?

> > > Looking for one which organizes the material and makes it easy

to

> > > understand.

> > >

> > > Thanks.

> > >

> > > J.Kokko

> > >

> > > On Feb 1, 2008 3:55 PM, <zrosenbe@> wrote:

> > >

> > > > Yangchu,

> > > > I just wanted to point out that the BHI homeopathic people

> > > > developed their 'six stage' pathogens theory independently

many

> > years

> > > > ago. I have a book called " Homeotoxicology " , written decades

ago

> > by

> > > > the BHI founder Dr. Reckeweg, where he delineates six stages

of

> > > > toxicity in disease states. He knew nothing about Chinese

> > medicine,

> > > > which makes it even more interesting. Miki adapted their

> > approach to

> > > > his own mastery of Shang Han Lun and started using this

system

> > with

> > > > his clients. Miki, I should point out however, is a medical

> > polymath

> > > > who has as wide a range of knowledge of different medical

> > systems as

> > > > anyone I've encountered. However, he is grounded in deep

> > scholarship

> > > > of Chinese and Japanese medicine, with a specialty in Shang

Han

> > Lun.

> > > >

> > > > On Feb 1, 2008, at 3:41 PM, Yangchu Higgins wrote:

> > > >

> > > > > Miki Shima is someone who's taken interest in the Six

> > > > > stages (channels, ahem) through some novel

> > > > > applications of homeopathics. He has presented some

> > > > > of his own findings regarding the 6 stages and

> > > > > " fu-xie " (lurking " crouching " pathogen). The company

> > > > > Heel has based their whole detox approach on the 6

> > > > > stages. They even combine homeopathic prescriptions

> > > > > and use some Chinese herbs.

> > > >

> > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

> > > > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

> > > > San Diego, Ca. 92122

> > > >

February 3, 2008

John,

" The Lantern " journal has run a series of articles on Huang

Huang's teachings of Shang Han Lun, translated by Michael Max.

Michael just took a group to China to study with Dr. Huang, and his

material is excellent, focused on clinical applications of

prescriptions. Check out these articles, I think you'll enjoy them.

On Feb 2, 2008, at 7:48 AM, wrote:

> Thanks Gabe.

> I do refer to the Practical Dictionary of ; was just

> looking

> for something else

> to make the concepts a bit clearer; I took two classes in the Shang

> han lun

> in school,

> have read through Mitchell et al.'s book and even had to memorize the

> " important " phrases,

> but it's still not cohesive enough to be able to practice or teach the

> principles thoroughly;

>

> Of course, the following representative formulas are ones we use

> often in

> practice...

> *tai yang j**ing wind* strike - gui zhi tang,

> *tai yang jing cold* strike - ma huang tang

> *tai yang fu* *water* accumulation - wu ling san

> *tai yang fu blood *accumulation - tao he cheng qi tang

> *shao yang* - xiao chai hu tang

> *yang ming jing* - bai hu tang

> *yang ming fu* - ...cheng qi tang

>

> *tai yin* - li zhong tang

> *shao yin heat* - huang lian e jiao tang

> *shao yin cold *- si ni tang

> *jue yin* - wu mei wan

>

> Is there room for another book to be published about the Shang han

> lun in

> English?

> Mitchell et al 's book is surely comprehensive enough,

> but what about a user manual with more charts and graphics to make the

> software easier to use?

> Just an idea.

>

> Thanks.

> Kokko

>

> On Feb 2, 2008 3:02 AM, fuentes120 <fuentes120 wrote:

>

> >

> > Hi John

> > Unfortunately there is not much in the way of different translations

> > or commentaries on the Shang han lun in English, but if you are able

> > to go thru the entire book by Mitchell, you will learn many things

> > within their context and the commentaries alone are great

> > explanations not found any where in English, and if your having

> > difficulties understanding some of the terms then also you should

> > maybe get a copy of the practical dictionary of Chinese medicine by

> > Wiseman and Ye. It will definitely be the best investment in your

> > understanding of Chinese medicine besides learning Chinese.

> > Good luck

> > Gabe Fuentes

> >

> > In

> Chinese Medicine

> @<Chinese Medicine%40>,

> > " "

> >

> > <johnkokko wrote:

> > >

> > > Are there any other good books or resources in English to

> > understand the

> > > Shang Han Lun,

> > > other than the one translated by Mitchell, Wiseman and Ye?

> > > Looking for one which organizes the material and makes it easy to

> > > understand.

> > >

> > > Thanks.

> > >

> > > J.Kokko

> > >

> > > On Feb 1, 2008 3:55 PM, <zrosenbe wrote:

> > >

> > > > Yangchu,

> > > > I just wanted to point out that the BHI homeopathic people

> > > > developed their 'six stage' pathogens theory independently many

> > years

> > > > ago. I have a book called " Homeotoxicology " , written decades ago

> > by

> > > > the BHI founder Dr. Reckeweg, where he delineates six stages of

> > > > toxicity in disease states. He knew nothing about Chinese

> > medicine,

> > > > which makes it even more interesting. Miki adapted their

> > approach to

> > > > his own mastery of Shang Han Lun and started using this system

> > with

> > > > his clients. Miki, I should point out however, is a medical

> > polymath

> > > > who has as wide a range of knowledge of different medical

> > systems as

> > > > anyone I've encountered. However, he is grounded in deep

> > scholarship

> > > > of Chinese and Japanese medicine, with a specialty in Shang Han

> > Lun.

> > > >

> > > > On Feb 1, 2008, at 3:41 PM, Yangchu Higgins wrote:

> > > >

> > > > > Miki Shima is someone who's taken interest in the Six

> > > > > stages (channels, ahem) through some novel

> > > > > applications of homeopathics. He has presented some

> > > > > of his own findings regarding the 6 stages and

> > > > > " fu-xie " (lurking " crouching " pathogen). The company

> > > > > Heel has based their whole detox approach on the 6

> > > > > stages. They even combine homeopathic prescriptions

> > > > > and use some Chinese herbs.

> > > >

> > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

> > > > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

> > > > San Diego, Ca. 92122

> > > >

February 3, 2008

Thanks for reminding me Z¡¦ev

Hi John

He is also translating one of Huang¡¦s books called the ten family

formulas. I invited Michael last year to come over and give a

lecture at China Medical for their annual English TCM lectures, and

I have to say it was very informative and it made me personally

aware of this trend of Classic formulas that deal with understanding

Chinese herbal medicine from a more classical perspective. Although

Huang gives one way of looking at the shang han lun classical

formulas, there are other approaches that are just as important.

Students here in Taiwan that really want to learn the Shang han lun

don¡¦t just read one interpretation of the shang han lun but dozens,

along with different commentaries. I heard Craig Mitchell along

with Arnaud Versluys, are giving a set of lectures regarding the

Shang han lun. It sure would be worth the money to attend, they not

only have studied the shang han lun but are able to convey it to a

western audience and that¡¦s what really counts, also their

different backgrounds will insure that you receive a wide range of

information.

Good luck

Gabe Fuentes

John,

> " The Lantern " journal has run a series of articles on Huang

> Huang's teachings of Shang Han Lun, translated by Michael Max.

> Michael just took a group to China to study with Dr. Huang, and

his

> material is excellent, focused on clinical applications of

> prescriptions. Check out these articles, I think you'll enjoy

them.

>

> On Feb 2, 2008, at 7:48 AM, wrote:

>

> > Thanks Gabe.

> > I do refer to the Practical Dictionary of ; was

just

> > looking

> > for something else

> > to make the concepts a bit clearer; I took two classes in the

Shang

> > han lun

> > in school,

> > have read through Mitchell et al.'s book and even had to

memorize the

> > " important " phrases,

> > but it's still not cohesive enough to be able to practice or

teach the

> > principles thoroughly;

> >

> > Of course, the following representative formulas are ones we

use

> > often in

> > practice...

> > *tai yang j**ing wind* strike - gui zhi tang,

> > *tai yang jing cold* strike - ma huang tang

> > *tai yang fu* *water* accumulation - wu ling san

> > *tai yang fu blood *accumulation - tao he cheng qi tang

> > *shao yang* - xiao chai hu tang

> > *yang ming jing* - bai hu tang

> > *yang ming fu* - ...cheng qi tang

> >

> > *tai yin* - li zhong tang

> > *shao yin heat* - huang lian e jiao tang

> > *shao yin cold *- si ni tang

> > *jue yin* - wu mei wan

> >

> > Is there room for another book to be published about the Shang

han

> > lun in

> > English?

> > Mitchell et al 's book is surely comprehensive enough,

> > but what about a user manual with more charts and graphics to

make the

> > software easier to use?

> > Just an idea.

> >

> > Thanks.

> > Kokko

> >

> > On Feb 2, 2008 3:02 AM, fuentes120 <fuentes120 wrote:

> >

> > >

> > > Hi John

> > > Unfortunately there is not much in the way of different

translations

> > > or commentaries on the Shang han lun in English, but if you

are able

> > > to go thru the entire book by Mitchell, you will learn many

things

> > > within their context and the commentaries alone are great

> > > explanations not found any where in English, and if your having

> > > difficulties understanding some of the terms then also you

should

> > > maybe get a copy of the practical dictionary of Chinese

medicine by

> > > Wiseman and Ye. It will definitely be the best investment in

your

> > > understanding of Chinese medicine besides learning Chinese.

> > > Good luck

> > > Gabe Fuentes

> > >

> > > In

> > Chinese Medicine

> > @<Chinese Medicine%40>,

> > > " "

> > >

> > > <johnkokko@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Are there any other good books or resources in English to

> > > understand the

> > > > Shang Han Lun,

> > > > other than the one translated by Mitchell, Wiseman and Ye?

> > > > Looking for one which organizes the material and makes it

easy to

> > > > understand.

> > > >

> > > > Thanks.

> > > >

> > > > J.Kokko

> > > >

> > > > On Feb 1, 2008 3:55 PM, <zrosenbe@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > > Yangchu,

> > > > > I just wanted to point out that the BHI homeopathic people

> > > > > developed their 'six stage' pathogens theory independently

many

> > > years

> > > > > ago. I have a book called " Homeotoxicology " , written

decades ago

> > > by

> > > > > the BHI founder Dr. Reckeweg, where he delineates six

stages of

> > > > > toxicity in disease states. He knew nothing about Chinese

> > > medicine,

> > > > > which makes it even more interesting. Miki adapted their

> > > approach to

> > > > > his own mastery of Shang Han Lun and started using this

system

> > > with

> > > > > his clients. Miki, I should point out however, is a medical

> > > polymath

> > > > > who has as wide a range of knowledge of different medical

> > > systems as

> > > > > anyone I've encountered. However, he is grounded in deep

> > > scholarship

> > > > > of Chinese and Japanese medicine, with a specialty in

Shang Han

> > > Lun.

> > > > >

> > > > > On Feb 1, 2008, at 3:41 PM, Yangchu Higgins wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > > Miki Shima is someone who's taken interest in the Six

> > > > > > stages (channels, ahem) through some novel

> > > > > > applications of homeopathics. He has presented some

> > > > > > of his own findings regarding the 6 stages and

> > > > > > " fu-xie " (lurking " crouching " pathogen). The company

> > > > > > Heel has based their whole detox approach on the 6

> > > > > > stages. They even combine homeopathic prescriptions

> > > > > > and use some Chinese herbs.

> > > > >

> > > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

> > > > > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

> > > > > San Diego, Ca. 92122

> > > > >

February 3, 2008

Gabe,

I agree there are many approaches to Shang Han Lun. I have

Huang's book, I like his practicality but am disappointed that he

generally ignores six channel theory in his book and lectures. I

think the SHL seminar in Boulder will be great, but it is difficult to

fly three separate times to get there. . .

On Feb 2, 2008, at 7:31 PM, fuentes120 wrote:

>

> Thanks for reminding me Z¡¦ev

> Hi John

> He is also translating one of Huang¡¦s books called the ten family

> formulas. I invited Michael last year to come over and give a

> lecture at China Medical for their annual English TCM lectures, and

> I have to say it was very informative and it made me personally

> aware of this trend of Classic formulas that deal with understanding

> Chinese herbal medicine from a more classical perspective. Although

> Huang gives one way of looking at the shang han lun classical

> formulas, there are other approaches that are just as important.

> Students here in Taiwan that really want to learn the Shang han lun

> don¡¦t just read one interpretation of the shang han lun but dozens,

> along with different commentaries. I heard Craig Mitchell along

> with Arnaud Versluys, are giving a set of lectures regarding the

> Shang han lun. It sure would be worth the money to attend, they not

> only have studied the shang han lun but are able to convey it to a

> western audience and that¡¦s what really counts, also their

> different backgrounds will insure that you receive a wide range of

> information.

>

> Good luck

> Gabe Fuentes

>

> John,

> > " The Lantern " journal has run a series of articles on Huang

> > Huang's teachings of Shang Han Lun, translated by Michael Max.

> > Michael just took a group to China to study with Dr. Huang, and

> his

> > material is excellent, focused on clinical applications of

> > prescriptions. Check out these articles, I think you'll enjoy

> them.

> >

> > On Feb 2, 2008, at 7:48 AM, wrote:

> >

> > > Thanks Gabe.

> > > I do refer to the Practical Dictionary of ; was

> just

> > > looking

> > > for something else

> > > to make the concepts a bit clearer; I took two classes in the

> Shang

> > > han lun

> > > in school,

> > > have read through Mitchell et al.'s book and even had to

> memorize the

> > > " important " phrases,

> > > but it's still not cohesive enough to be able to practice or

> teach the

> > > principles thoroughly;

> > >

> > > Of course, the following representative formulas are ones we

> use

> > > often in

> > > practice...

> > > *tai yang j**ing wind* strike - gui zhi tang,

> > > *tai yang jing cold* strike - ma huang tang

> > > *tai yang fu* *water* accumulation - wu ling san

> > > *tai yang fu blood *accumulation - tao he cheng qi tang

> > > *shao yang* - xiao chai hu tang

> > > *yang ming jing* - bai hu tang

> > > *yang ming fu* - ...cheng qi tang

> > >

> > > *tai yin* - li zhong tang

> > > *shao yin heat* - huang lian e jiao tang

> > > *shao yin cold *- si ni tang

> > > *jue yin* - wu mei wan

> > >

> > > Is there room for another book to be published about the Shang

> han

> > > lun in

> > > English?

> > > Mitchell et al 's book is surely comprehensive enough,

> > > but what about a user manual with more charts and graphics to

> make the

> > > software easier to use?

> > > Just an idea.

> > >

> > > Thanks.

> > > Kokko

> > >

> > > On Feb 2, 2008 3:02 AM, fuentes120 <fuentes120 wrote:

> > >

> > > >

> > > > Hi John

> > > > Unfortunately there is not much in the way of different

> translations

> > > > or commentaries on the Shang han lun in English, but if you

> are able

> > > > to go thru the entire book by Mitchell, you will learn many

> things

> > > > within their context and the commentaries alone are great

> > > > explanations not found any where in English, and if your having

> > > > difficulties understanding some of the terms then also you

> should

> > > > maybe get a copy of the practical dictionary of Chinese

> medicine by

> > > > Wiseman and Ye. It will definitely be the best investment in

> your

> > > > understanding of Chinese medicine besides learning Chinese.

> > > > Good luck

> > > > Gabe Fuentes

> > > >

> > > > In

> > > Chinese Medicine

> > > @<Chinese Medicine%40>,

> > > > " "

> > > >

> > > > <johnkokko@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Are there any other good books or resources in English to

> > > > understand the

> > > > > Shang Han Lun,

> > > > > other than the one translated by Mitchell, Wiseman and Ye?

> > > > > Looking for one which organizes the material and makes it

> easy to

> > > > > understand.

> > > > >

> > > > > Thanks.

> > > > >

> > > > > J.Kokko

> > > > >

> > > > > On Feb 1, 2008 3:55 PM, <zrosenbe@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > > Yangchu,

> > > > > > I just wanted to point out that the BHI homeopathic people

> > > > > > developed their 'six stage' pathogens theory independently

> many

> > > > years

> > > > > > ago. I have a book called " Homeotoxicology " , written

> decades ago

> > > > by

> > > > > > the BHI founder Dr. Reckeweg, where he delineates six

> stages of

> > > > > > toxicity in disease states. He knew nothing about Chinese

> > > > medicine,

> > > > > > which makes it even more interesting. Miki adapted their

> > > > approach to

> > > > > > his own mastery of Shang Han Lun and started using this

> system

> > > > with

> > > > > > his clients. Miki, I should point out however, is a medical

> > > > polymath

> > > > > > who has as wide a range of knowledge of different medical

> > > > systems as

> > > > > > anyone I've encountered. However, he is grounded in deep

> > > > scholarship

> > > > > > of Chinese and Japanese medicine, with a specialty in

> Shang Han

> > > > Lun.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > On Feb 1, 2008, at 3:41 PM, Yangchu Higgins wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > Miki Shima is someone who's taken interest in the Six

> > > > > > > stages (channels, ahem) through some novel

> > > > > > > applications of homeopathics. He has presented some

> > > > > > > of his own findings regarding the 6 stages and

> > > > > > > " fu-xie " (lurking " crouching " pathogen). The company

> > > > > > > Heel has based their whole detox approach on the 6

> > > > > > > stages. They even combine homeopathic prescriptions

> > > > > > > and use some Chinese herbs.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

> > > > > > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

> > > > > > San Diego, Ca. 92122

> > > > > >

February 3, 2008

A Chinese friend of mine from Nanjing, who is also a close friend of Huang

Huang told me that Dr. Huang doesn't practice right now. He has taken up a

political title as a Party member.

I hope he'll get back to teaching soon- I am planning to go back to Nanjing

in a few years for a ph D program and Dr. Huang was one of the people I

thought of as my promotor.

Tom.

----

3/02/2008 3:29:35

Chinese Medicine

Re: Re: 6 Levels

John,

" The Lantern " journal has run a series of articles on Huang

Huang's teachings of Shang Han Lun, translated by Michael Max.

Michael just took a group to China to study with Dr. Huang, and his

material is excellent, focused on clinical applications of

prescriptions. Check out these articles, I think you'll enjoy them.

Recent Activity

3New Members

Visit Your Group

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identify them.

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to share and learn.

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Join the All-Bran

Day 10 Club..

February 3, 2008

Kokko ,

For further clarity in the SHL I highly recommend attending one of the Dan

Bensky, Craig Mitchell, and Arnaud Versluys seminars. We are sitting through

the 1st weekend here in Boulder right now. It is great! I would look for

further seminars from these three. I know they are doing one in Australia

soon.

As far as another SHL book. Of course there is room. In Chinese there are

100's of books on the SHL. Mitchell's translation is great. The commentary

is also nice, but there are many ways to look at this text and use it

clinically. However, until books arrive on the scene just try to study with

people that have figured stuff out and keep an open mind.

Finally, SHL can be a very deep system if you like. Many people devote

their life only to practicing this style. Therefore there is a lot learn.

Hope that helps,

-

_____

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of john

kokko

Saturday, February 02, 2008 8:49 AM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Re: 6 Levels

Thanks Gabe.

I do refer to the Practical Dictionary of ; was just looking

for something else

to make the concepts a bit clearer; I took two classes in the Shang han lun

in school,

have read through Mitchell et al.'s book and even had to memorize the

" important " phrases,

but it's still not cohesive enough to be able to practice or teach the

principles thoroughly;

Of course, the following representative formulas are ones we use often in

practice...

*tai yang j**ing wind* strike - gui zhi tang,

*tai yang jing cold* strike - ma huang tang

*tai yang fu* *water* accumulation - wu ling san

*tai yang fu blood *accumulation - tao he cheng qi tang

*shao yang* - xiao chai hu tang

*yang ming jing* - bai hu tang

*yang ming fu* - ...cheng qi tang

*tai yin* - li zhong tang

*shao yin heat* - huang lian e jiao tang

*shao yin cold *- si ni tang

*jue yin* - wu mei wan

Is there room for another book to be published about the Shang han lun in

English?

Mitchell et al 's book is surely comprehensive enough,

but what about a user manual with more charts and graphics to make the

software easier to use?

Just an idea.

Thanks.

Kokko

On Feb 2, 2008 3:02 AM, fuentes120 <fuentes120 (AT) (DOT)

<fuentes120%40> com> wrote:

>

> Hi John

> Unfortunately there is not much in the way of different translations

> or commentaries on the Shang han lun in English, but if you are able

> to go thru the entire book by Mitchell, you will learn many things

> within their context and the commentaries alone are great

> explanations not found any where in English, and if your having

> difficulties understanding some of the terms then also you should

> maybe get a copy of the practical dictionary of Chinese medicine by

> Wiseman and Ye. It will definitely be the best investment in your

> understanding of Chinese medicine besides learning Chinese.

> Good luck

> Gabe Fuentes

>

> In Traditional_ <Chinese Medicine%40>

Chinese_Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40.

com>,

> " "

>

> <johnkokko wrote:

> >

> > Are there any other good books or resources in English to

> understand the

> > Shang Han Lun,

> > other than the one translated by Mitchell, Wiseman and Ye?

> > Looking for one which organizes the material and makes it easy to

> > understand.

> >

> > Thanks.

> >

> > J.Kokko

> >

> > On Feb 1, 2008 3:55 PM, <zrosenbe wrote:

> >

> > > Yangchu,

> > > I just wanted to point out that the BHI homeopathic people

> > > developed their 'six stage' pathogens theory independently many

> years

> > > ago. I have a book called " Homeotoxicology " , written decades ago

> by

> > > the BHI founder Dr. Reckeweg, where he delineates six stages of

> > > toxicity in disease states. He knew nothing about Chinese

> medicine,

> > > which makes it even more interesting. Miki adapted their

> approach to

> > > his own mastery of Shang Han Lun and started using this system

> with

> > > his clients. Miki, I should point out however, is a medical

> polymath

> > > who has as wide a range of knowledge of different medical

> systems as

> > > anyone I've encountered. However, he is grounded in deep

> scholarship

> > > of Chinese and Japanese medicine, with a specialty in Shang Han

> Lun.

> > >

> > > On Feb 1, 2008, at 3:41 PM, Yangchu Higgins wrote:

> > >

> > > > Miki Shima is someone who's taken interest in the Six

> > > > stages (channels, ahem) through some novel

> > > > applications of homeopathics. He has presented some

> > > > of his own findings regarding the 6 stages and

> > > > " fu-xie " (lurking " crouching " pathogen). The company

> > > > Heel has based their whole detox approach on the 6

> > > > stages. They even combine homeopathic prescriptions

> > > > and use some Chinese herbs.

> > >

> > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

> > > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

> > > San Diego, Ca. 92122

> > >

February 3, 2008

Thanks to all of you on the forum for the suggestions, leads and web links.

These seminars and Huang Huang's extensive herbal knowledge are eye-openers.

Glad to see that these opportunities are out there.

See you at one of the seminars soon.

Kokko

On Feb 3, 2008 6:30 AM,

wrote:

> Kokko ,

>

> For further clarity in the SHL I highly recommend attending one of the Dan

> Bensky, Craig Mitchell, and Arnaud Versluys seminars. We are sitting

> through

> the 1st weekend here in Boulder right now. It is great! I would look for

> further seminars from these three. I know they are doing one in Australia

> soon.

>

> As far as another SHL book. Of course there is room. In Chinese there are

> 100's of books on the SHL. Mitchell's translation is great. The commentary

> is also nice, but there are many ways to look at this text and use it

> clinically. However, until books arrive on the scene just try to study

> with

> people that have figured stuff out and keep an open mind.

>

> Finally, SHL can be a very deep system if you like. Many people devote

> their life only to practicing this style. Therefore there is a lot learn.

>

> Hope that helps,

>

> -

>

> _____

>

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

>

[Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chinese_Medicin\

e%40>]

> On Behalf Of john

> kokko

> Saturday, February 02, 2008 8:49 AM

> To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

>

> Re: Re: 6 Levels

>

> Thanks Gabe.

> I do refer to the Practical Dictionary of ; was just

> looking

> for something else

> to make the concepts a bit clearer; I took two classes in the Shang han

> lun

> in school,

> have read through Mitchell et al.'s book and even had to memorize the

> " important " phrases,

> but it's still not cohesive enough to be able to practice or teach the

> principles thoroughly;

>

> Of course, the following representative formulas are ones we use often in

> practice...

> *tai yang j**ing wind* strike - gui zhi tang,

> *tai yang jing cold* strike - ma huang tang

> *tai yang fu* *water* accumulation - wu ling san

> *tai yang fu blood *accumulation - tao he cheng qi tang

> *shao yang* - xiao chai hu tang

> *yang ming jing* - bai hu tang

> *yang ming fu* - ...cheng qi tang

>

> *tai yin* - li zhong tang

> *shao yin heat* - huang lian e jiao tang

> *shao yin cold *- si ni tang

> *jue yin* - wu mei wan

>

> Is there room for another book to be published about the Shang han lun in

> English?

> Mitchell et al 's book is surely comprehensive enough,

> but what about a user manual with more charts and graphics to make the

> software easier to use?

> Just an idea.

>

> Thanks.

> Kokko

>

> On Feb 2, 2008 3:02 AM, fuentes120 <fuentes120 (AT) (DOT)

> <fuentes120%40> com> wrote: