DAOM clinic results, was Professor title?, revisited

[Guest guest]

i agree with douglas here. a 90% success rate in tx outcome is impressive,

and i congratulate don on his well earned achievement. however, in

contemplating the matter, i got to thinking that i get a 90% success rate in

my clinical practice. i have an mstom. so i would argue that the daom is

not required to achieve a high success rate in clinic.

 

kath

 

On Jan 21, 2008 11:14 AM, Douglas Knapp <knappneedleman wrote:

 

> I am also doing the DAOM, but I must respectively disagree with Don on

> one point. He points out the significant difference in results between the

> DAOM and the MS students clinically. One must remember that the participants

> in the DAOM are all clinicians that have been in practice for a number of

> years, and, as such, it would be remiss if the results weren't better than

> those just starting to apply their theoretical knowledge. The students in

> the program that i attend have been in private practice for an average of

> six years. If our results weren't better, there would be a big problem.

>

> Douglas Knapp

> Doctoral Fellow, L.Ac.

> Full Moon Acupuncture

> 1600 York Avenue

> New York, NY 10028

> 212-734-1459

>

>

>

> " " <acukath <acukath%40gmail.com>>

> To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> Monday, January 21, 2008 9:54:09 AM

> Re: Professor title?, revisited

>

> impressive results, Don.

>

> k

>

> On Jan 18, 2008 4:26 PM, Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com> wrote:

>

> >

>

> > I would be happy to respond. Yes, I do believe the program is worth it

>

> > although it is expensive and not necessary to practice our wonderful

>

> > medicine. You are absolutely right, the DAOM is not a PhD, it is a

>

> > professional doctorate. The MD is also not a Ph.D, it, too, is a

>

> > professional doctorate.

>

> >

>

> > Our program was much more than just a Capstone research project. In the

>

> > doctorate we delved MUCh more deeply into the various classics than do

> the

>

> > Master's programs. My particular program was 3 years of seat time every

>

> > Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. Nowadays, the program has changed for the

>

> > worse I fear. It is not just one weekend or so a month and a lot of

>

> > consistancy is lost in the process. However, this is how I know the

> program

>

> > was good. Our clinical outcomes were far superior to the Master's level

>

> > clinicians. We succeeded where others had failed. For myself, I have a

> 90%

>

> > or better success rate of all that I treat. Before the DAOM I got 70-80%

>

> > efficacy. Not may not sound like much, but many clinicians would give an

> arm

>

> > for those kinds of results. My patients are definitely happy and they

> refer

>

> > a lot of work to me.

>

> >

>

> > Hope this helps.

>

> >

>

> > Don Snow

>

> >

>

> > traditional_ chinese_medicine From<traditional_

> chinese_medicine %40. comFrom>:

>

> > naturaldoc1@ hotmail.comDate <naturaldoc1% 40hotmail. comDate>: Fri, 18

> Jan

>

> > 2008 20:18:33 +0000RE: Professor title?, revisited

>

> >

>

> > Don is right in that there is a research project involved but these

> arenot

>

> > meant to be a PhD (research doctorate) but more advanced

> clinicaltraining.

>

> > The DAOM is to provide the difference in clinical training and

> experience to

>

> > be a doctor. As most of these come from the west coastit might be hard

> for

>

> > others to understand what the driving force is andwhy it is being

> pursued so

>

> > rapidly by many. Maybe Don could addresshis experience at PCOM's DAOM

> and

>

> > what he thinks are reasons relatingto its popularity. Just an FYI, there

> is

>

> > one PhD program in CCM offered at AUCM if anyonewants to chime in about

>

> > their experience with that one. Mike W. Bowser, L AcTo:

>

> > traditional_ chinese_medicine From<traditional_

> chinese_medicine %40. comFrom>:

>

> > don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) comDate <don83407%40msn. comDate>: Fri, 18 Jan 2008

> 11:46:56

>

> > -0600RE: Professor title?, revisitedI beg to differ, all

> DAOM

>

> > students at PCOM had original capstone publishable research projects to

>

> > complete and then sit before a board. I don't suppose you have a DAOM?

> Don

>

> > Snow DAOM, MPH, LAc.Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine @.

> comFrom<Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine %40. comFrom>:

>

> > establishment_ man Date <establishment_ man%40. comDate>:

> Fri,

>

> > 18 Jan 2008 05:15:47 +0000Re: Professor title?,

> revisitedThe

>

> > doctorate programs that exist in American TCM are hardly Ph.D's. They

> are

>

> > more akin to advance clinical training but since they require no

> original

>

> > research or dissertation, I do not think they should be considered

> Ph.Ddegrees. And, in fact they are not. They are DAOM

>

> > degrees.EM-- - In Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine @.

> com<Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine %40. com>,

>

>

> > Donald Snow <don83407@.. .> wrote:>> > We do, indeed, now have a

> Doctoral

>

> > degree and title. It is the DAOM. It is a doctorate degree and thus, one

> may

>

> > " ethically " use the title once earned. > > Don Snow> DAOM, MPH, LAc> > >

> To:

>

> > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine : dr_namnguyen58@ ...: Wed, 9 Jan 2008

>

> > 12:43:34 -0800Re: Professor title?, revisited> > > > >

> Thanks

>

> > to your agreement to your tittle, Kath.Another of my concern, I am not a

>

> > Ph.D in Oriental Medicine. However, I believe some or all acupuncturists

>

> > are entitled to the title " Dr. " if they have finished their Ph.D and

>

> > earned their degree from our schools.I think they should be allowed to

>

> > bear that title in which our states prohibited them to. If they are not

> to

>

> > be called or entitled to with the title " Dr. " , then there is no one

> else

>

> > in any schools without MD or any practitioners should be addressed so.

> If

>

> > they ( professors or clinical supervisors ) are allowed to be addressed

> as

>

> > such, then they ( other practitioners ) must have the same honor.If our

>

> > states prohibit this title. this is not our problems. Our states must

> stop

>

> > individual schools to advertise such a scam business and also to all

> others

>

> > who are practicing or teaching us to be called " Dr..... " Otherwise,

> this

>

> > unethical practice is still fooling the public.We , acupuncturists, have

>

> > done everything legally, accepted and followed our legal procedures to

> get a

>

> > degree which we believed in to. It is the problem of our school

> structures

>

> > who are fooling all of their students and the public. They must be

> punished

>

> > and must be closed if they are continued to do so. This is a grand fraud

> , a

>

> > misleading to all. It is not our problems, but it is the school's and

> our

>

> > states'..... ... What is everybody's opinion????? ???? If OMD schools

> are

>

> > still fishing us to get a degree, we should be entitled to what we

> invest

>

> > into ( time and money ).Nam Nguyen------ --------- --------- ---------

> Be a

>

> > better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. Try it

>

> > now.

[Guest guest]

Douglas has made a point, however, in our class at PCOM about a third of us were

fresh out of the MSTOM programs. I had been out of the MSTOM program for 2

years and had been in private practice for about that long and some in the class

were fresh out of the MSTOM programs. We were the 1st cohort and therefore, at

that time, the schools were allowing new MSTOM graduates to apply. So you are

partially correct some of my classmates were " Oldies " but certainly not all.

Since I have graduated, I can say unequivocolly that our results were, indeed,

superior. They were even superior to some of the teachers of the program.

 

The sweetness of the program was the interaction of our peers within the

program. We learned a great deal from each other. Most of us were " open " to

new ideas. That is another secret to clinical success. When one thinks they

know it all, they can no longer learn.

 

Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc

 

 

: acukath:

Tue, 22 Jan 2008 10:50:53 -0500DAOM clinic results, was Professor

title?, revisited

 

 

 

 

i agree with douglas here. a 90% success rate in tx outcome is impressive,and i

congratulate don on his well earned achievement. however, incontemplating the

matter, i got to thinking that i get a 90% success rate inmy clinical practice.

i have an mstom. so i would argue that the daom isnot required to achieve a high

success rate in clinic.kathOn Jan 21, 2008 11:14 AM, Douglas Knapp

<knappneedleman wrote:> I am also doing the DAOM, but I must

respectively disagree with Don on> one point. He points out the significant

difference in results between the> DAOM and the MS students clinically. One must

remember that the participants> in the DAOM are all clinicians that have been in

practice for a number of> years, and, as such, it would be remiss if the results

weren't better than> those just starting to apply their theoretical knowledge.

The students in> the program that i attend have been in private practice for an

average of> six years. If our results weren't better, there would be a big

problem.>> Douglas Knapp> Doctoral Fellow, L.Ac.> Full Moon Acupuncture> 1600

York Avenue> New York, NY 10028> 212-734-1459>>> >

" " <acukath <acukath%40gmail.com>>> To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>> Monday, January 21, 2008 9:54:09 AM> Re: TCM -

Professor title?, revisited>> impressive results, Don.>> k>> On Jan 18, 2008

4:26 PM, Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com> wrote:>> >>> > I would be happy to

respond. Yes, I do believe the program is worth it>> > although it is expensive

and not necessary to practice our wonderful>> > medicine. You are absolutely

right, the DAOM is not a PhD, it is a>> > professional doctorate. The MD is also

not a Ph.D, it, too, is a>> > professional doctorate.>> >>> > Our program was

much more than just a Capstone research project. In the>> > doctorate we delved

MUCh more deeply into the various classics than do> the>> > Master's programs.

My particular program was 3 years of seat time every>> > Friday, Saturday, and

Sunday. Nowadays, the program has changed for the>> > worse I fear. It is not

just one weekend or so a month and a lot of>> > consistancy is lost in the

process. However, this is how I know the> program>> > was good. Our clinical

outcomes were far superior to the Master's level>> > clinicians. We succeeded

where others had failed. For myself, I have a> 90%>> > or better success rate of

all that I treat. Before the DAOM I got 70-80%>> > efficacy. Not may not sound

like much, but many clinicians would give an> arm>> > for those kinds of

results. My patients are definitely happy and they> refer>> > a lot of work to

me.>> >>> > Hope this helps.>> >>> > Don Snow>> >>> > traditional_

chinese_medicine From<traditional_> chinese_medicine

%40. comFrom>:>> > naturaldoc1@ hotmail.comDate <naturaldoc1%

40hotmail. comDate>: Fri, 18> Jan>> > 2008 20:18:33 +0000RE: TCM -

Professor title?, revisited>> >>> > Don is right in that there is a research

project involved but these> arenot>> > meant to be a PhD (research doctorate)

but more advanced> clinicaltraining.>> > The DAOM is to provide the difference

in clinical training and> experience to>> > be a doctor. As most of these come

from the west coastit might be hard> for>> > others to understand what the

driving force is andwhy it is being> pursued so>> > rapidly by many. Maybe Don

could addresshis experience at PCOM's DAOM> and>> > what he thinks are reasons

relatingto its popularity. Just an FYI, there> is>> > one PhD program in CCM

offered at AUCM if anyonewants to chime in about>> > their experience with that

one. Mike W. Bowser, L AcTo:>> > traditional_ chinese_medicine @.

comFrom<traditional_> chinese_medicine %40. comFrom>:>> >

don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) comDate <don83407%40msn. comDate>: Fri, 18 Jan 2008> 11:46:56>> >

-0600RE: Professor title?, revisitedI beg to differ, all> DAOM>>

> students at PCOM had original capstone publishable research projects to>> >

complete and then sit before a board. I don't suppose you have a DAOM?> Don>> >

Snow DAOM, MPH, LAc.Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine @.>

comFrom<Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine %40. comFrom>:>> >

establishment_ man Date <establishment_ man%40. comDate>:> Fri,>>

> 18 Jan 2008 05:15:47 +0000Re: Professor title?,> revisitedThe>>

> doctorate programs that exist in American TCM are hardly Ph.D's. They> are>> >

more akin to advance clinical training but since they require no> original>> >

research or dissertation, I do not think they should be considered> Ph.Ddegrees.

And, in fact they are not. They are DAOM>> > degrees.EM-- - In Traditional_

Chinese_Medicine @.> com<Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine

%40. com>,>>> > Donald Snow <don83407@.. .> wrote:>> > We do, indeed,

now have a> Doctoral>> > degree and title. It is the DAOM. It is a doctorate

degree and thus, one> may>> > " ethically " use the title once earned. > > Don

Snow> DAOM, MPH, LAc> > >> To:>> > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine :

dr_namnguyen58@ ...: Wed, 9 Jan 2008>> > 12:43:34 -0800Re: TCM -

Professor title?, revisited> > > > >> Thanks>> > to your agreement to your

tittle, Kath.Another of my concern, I am not a>> > Ph.D in Oriental Medicine.

However, I believe some or all acupuncturists>> > are entitled to the title "

Dr. " if they have finished their Ph.D and>> > earned their degree from our

schools.I think they should be allowed to>> > bear that title in which our

states prohibited them to. If they are not> to>> > be called or entitled to with

the title " Dr. " , then there is no one> else>> > in any schools without MD or

any practitioners should be addressed so.> If>> > they ( professors or clinical

supervisors ) are allowed to be addressed> as>> > such, then they ( other

practitioners ) must have the same honor.If our>> > states prohibit this title.

this is not our problems. Our states must> stop>> > individual schools to

advertise such a scam business and also to all> others>> > who are practicing or

teaching us to be called " Dr..... " Otherwise,> this>> > unethical practice is

still fooling the public.We , acupuncturists, have>> > done everything legally,

accepted and followed our legal procedures to> get a>> > degree which we

believed in to. It is the problem of our school> structures>> > who are fooling

all of their students and the public. They must be> punished>> > and must be

closed if they are continued to do so. This is a grand fraud> , a>> > misleading

to all. It is not our problems, but it is the school's and> our>> > states'.....

.... What is everybody's opinion????? ???? If OMD schools> are>> > still fishing

us to get a degree, we should be entitled to what we> invest>> > into ( time and

money ).Nam Nguyen------ --------- --------- ---------> Be a>> > better friend,

newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. Try it>> > now.[Non-text portions

of this message have been removed] > > > > > > >> >>> > [Non-text portions of

this message have been removed]> [Non-text> portions of>> > this message have

been removed]>> > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________

_Shed> those extra>> > pounds with MSN and The Biggest

Loser!!http://biggestloser.msn.com/[Non-text>> > portions of this message have

been removed]>> >>> >>> > [Non-text portions of this message have been

removed]>> >>> >>> >>> -->> >> Board Certified in

Oriental Medicine, NCCAOM>> Experienced, Dedicated, Effective>> Flying Dragon

Liniment:>> Effective pain relief for muscles & joints>> Formulated by Kath

Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist>> Available at Asheville Center for

, or web order at:>> https://www. kamwo.com/ shop/product.

php?productid= 17442 & cat= 0 & page=1>> Asheville Center For >> 70

Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two>> Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777>>

kbartlett@Acupunctu reAsheville. com>> www.AcupunctureAshe ville.com>> [Non-text

portions of this message have been removed]>> <!-->> #ygrp-mkp{> border:1px

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________> Never miss a thing.

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this message have been removed]>> >-- Board

Certified in Oriental Medicine, NCCAOMExperienced, Dedicated, EffectiveFlying

Dragon Liniment:Effective pain relief for muscles & jointsFormulated by Kath

Bartlett, Traditional Chinese HerbalistAvailable at Asheville Center for Chinese

Medicine, or web order

at:https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1Asheville

Center For 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing TwoAsheville, NC

28801

828.258.2777kbartlett[Non-t\

ext portions of this message have been removed]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

The interaction between myself and my colleagues has certainly been the most

helpful thing gained from the DTOM.

 

Douglas Knapp

Doctoral Fellow, L.Ac.

Full Moon Acupuncture

1600 York Avenue

New York, NY 10028

212-734-1459

 

 

Donald Snow <don83407

Chinese Traditional Medicine

Wednesday, January 23, 2008 11:03:03 AM

RE: DAOM clinic results, was Professor title?, revisited

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Douglas has made a point, however, in our class at PCOM about a third of us were

fresh out of the MSTOM programs. I had been out of the MSTOM program for 2

years and had been in private practice for about that long and some in the class

were fresh out of the MSTOM programs. We were the 1st cohort and therefore, at

that time, the schools were allowing new MSTOM graduates to apply. So you are

partially correct some of my classmates were " Oldies " but certainly not all.

Since I have graduated, I can say unequivocolly that our results were, indeed,

superior. They were even superior to some of the teachers of the program.

 

 

 

The sweetness of the program was the interaction of our peers within the

program. We learned a great deal from each other. Most of us were " open " to

new ideas. That is another secret to clinical success. When one thinks they

know it all, they can no longer learn.

 

 

 

Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc

 

 

 

acukath (AT) gmail (DOT) comDate:

Tue, 22 Jan 2008 10:50:53 -0500DAOM clinic results, was Professor

title?, revisited

 

 

 

i agree with douglas here. a 90% success rate in tx outcome is impressive,and i

congratulate don on his well earned achievement. however, incontemplating the

matter, i got to thinking that i get a 90% success rate inmy clinical practice.

i have an mstom. so i would argue that the daom isnot required to achieve a high

success rate in clinic.kathOn Jan 21, 2008 11:14 AM, Douglas Knapp

<knappneedleman@ > wrote:> I am also doing the DAOM, but I must

respectively disagree with Don on> one point. He points out the significant

difference in results between the> DAOM and the MS students clinically. One must

remember that the participants> in the DAOM are all clinicians that have been in

practice for a number of> years, and, as such, it would be remiss if the results

weren't better than> those just starting to apply their theoretical knowledge.

The students in> the program that i attend have been in private practice for an

average of> six years. If our

results weren't better, there would be a big problem.>> Douglas Knapp> Doctoral

Fellow, L.Ac.> Full Moon Acupuncture> 1600 York Avenue> New York, NY 10028>

212-734-1459> >> > " "

<acukath (AT) gmail (DOT) com <acukath%40gmail. com>>> Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine

<Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine %40. com>> Sent:

Monday, January 21, 2008 9:54:09 AM> Re: Professor title?,

revisited>> impressive results, Don.>> k>> On Jan 18, 2008 4:26 PM, Donald Snow

<don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com> wrote:>> >>> > I would be happy to respond. Yes, I do

believe the program is worth it>> > although it is expensive and not necessary

to practice our wonderful>> > medicine. You are absolutely right, the DAOM is

not a PhD, it is a>> > professional doctorate. The MD is also not a Ph.D, it,

too, is a>> > professional doctorate.>> >>> > Our program was much more than

just a Capstone research project. In

the>> > doctorate we delved MUCh more deeply into the various classics than do>

the>> > Master's programs. My particular program was 3 years of seat time

every>> > Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. Nowadays, the program has changed for

the>> > worse I fear. It is not just one weekend or so a month and a lot of>> >

consistancy is lost in the process. However, this is how I know the> program>> >

was good. Our clinical outcomes were far superior to the Master's level>> >

clinicians. We succeeded where others had failed. For myself, I have a> 90%>> >

or better success rate of all that I treat. Before the DAOM I got 70-80%>> >

efficacy. Not may not sound like much, but many clinicians would give an> arm>>

> for those kinds of results. My patients are definitely happy and they> refer>>

> a lot of work to me.>> >>> > Hope this helps.>> >>> > Don Snow>> >>> > To:

traditional_ chinese_medicine From<traditional _>

chinese_medicine %40.

comFrom>:>> > naturaldoc1@ hotmail.comDate <naturaldoc1% 40hotmail. comDate>:

Fri, 18> Jan>> > 2008 20:18:33 +0000RE: Professor title?,

revisited>> >>> > Don is right in that there is a research project involved but

these> arenot>> > meant to be a PhD (research doctorate) but more advanced>

clinicaltraining. >> > The DAOM is to provide the difference in clinical

training and> experience to>> > be a doctor. As most of these come from the west

coastit might be hard> for>> > others to understand what the driving force is

andwhy it is being> pursued so>> > rapidly by many. Maybe Don could addresshis

experience at PCOM's DAOM> and>> > what he thinks are reasons relatingto its

popularity. Just an FYI, there> is>> > one PhD program in CCM offered at AUCM if

anyonewants to chime in about>> > their experience with that one. Mike W.

Bowser, L AcTo:>> > traditional_ chinese_medicine @.

comFrom<traditional _> chinese_medicine

%40. comFrom>:>> > don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) comDate <don83407%40msn. comDate>:

Fri, 18 Jan 2008> 11:46:56>> > -0600RE: Professor title?,

revisitedI beg to differ, all> DAOM>> > students at PCOM had original capstone

publishable research projects to>> > complete and then sit before a board. I

don't suppose you have a DAOM?> Don>> > Snow DAOM, MPH, LAc.Traditional_

Chinese_Medicine @. > comFrom<Traditional _ Chinese_Medicine

%40. comFrom>:>> > establishment_ man Date <establishment_

man%40. comDate>:> Fri,>> > 18 Jan 2008 05:15:47 +0000Re: TCM -

Professor title?,> revisitedThe> > > doctorate programs that exist in American

TCM are hardly Ph.D's. They> are>> > more akin to advance clinical training but

since they require no> original>> > research or dissertation, I do not think

they should be considered> Ph.Ddegrees. And, in fact they are not. They are

DAOM>> > degrees.EM-- - In Traditional_

Chinese_Medicine @. > com<Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine

%40. com>,>>> > Donald Snow <don83407@.. .> wrote:>> > We do, indeed,

now have a> Doctoral>> > degree and title. It is the DAOM. It is a doctorate

degree and thus, one> may>> > " ethically " use the title once earned. > > Don

Snow> DAOM, MPH, LAc> > >> To:>> > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine :

dr_namnguyen58@ ...: Wed, 9 Jan 2008>> > 12:43:34 -0800Re: TCM -

Professor title?, revisited> > > > >> Thanks>> > to your agreement to your

tittle, Kath.Another of my concern, I am not a>> > Ph.D in Oriental Medicine.

However, I believe some or all acupuncturists> > > are entitled to the title "

Dr. " if they have finished their Ph.D and>> > earned their degree from our

schools.I think they should be allowed to>> > bear that title in which our

states prohibited them to. If they are not> to>> > be called or entitled to with

the title " Dr. " , then there is no one> else>> > in

any schools without MD or any practitioners should be addressed so.> If>> >

they ( professors or clinical supervisors ) are allowed to be addressed> as>> >

such, then they ( other practitioners ) must have the same honor.If our>> >

states prohibit this title. this is not our problems. Our states must> stop>> >

individual schools to advertise such a scam business and also to all> others>> >

who are practicing or teaching us to be called " Dr..... " Otherwise,> this>> >

unethical practice is still fooling the public.We , acupuncturists, have>> >

done everything legally, accepted and followed our legal procedures to> get a>>

> degree which we believed in to. It is the problem of our school> structures>>

> who are fooling all of their students and the public. They must be> punished>>

> and must be closed if they are continued to do so. This is a grand fraud> ,

a>> > misleading to all. It is not our problems, but it is the school's and>

our>> > states'.....

... What is everybody's opinion????? ???? If OMD schools> are>> > still fishing

us to get a degree, we should be entitled to what we> invest>> > into ( time and

money ).Nam Nguyen------ --------- --------- ---------> Be a>> > better friend,

newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. Try it>> > now.[Non-text portions

of this message have been removed] > > > > > > >> >>> > [Non-text portions of

this message have been removed]> [Non-text> portions of>> > this message have

been removed]>> > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________

_Shed> those extra>> > pounds with MSN and The Biggest

Loser!!http://biggestloser .msn.com/[Non-text>> > portions of this message have

been removed]>> >>> >>> > [Non-text portions of this message have been

removed]>> >>> >>> >>> -->> >> Board Certified in

Oriental Medicine, NCCAOM>> Experienced, Dedicated, Effective>> Flying Dragon

Liniment:>> Effective pain relief for

muscles & joints>> Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist>>

Available at Asheville Center for , or web order at:>>

https://www. kamwo.com/ shop/product. php?productid= 17442 & cat= 0 & page=1>>

Asheville Center For >> 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two>>

Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777> > kbartlett@Acupunctu reAsheville. com>>

www.AcupunctureAshe ville.com>> [Non-text portions of this message have been

removed]>> <!-->> #ygrp-mkp{> border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font- family:Arial;

margin:14px 0px;padding: 0px> 14px;}> #ygrp-mkp hr{> border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}>

#ygrp-mkp #hd{> color:#628c2a; font-size: 85%;font- weight:bold; line-height:

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..ad{> padding:0 0;}> #ygrp-mkp .ad a{> color:#0000ff; text-decoration: none;}>

-->>> <!-->> #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc{> font-family: Arial;}> #ygrp-sponsor

#ygrp-lc #hd{> margin:10px 0px;font-weight:

bold;font- size:78%; line-height: 122%;}> #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc .ad{>

margin-bottom: 10px;padding: 0 0;}> -->>> <!-->> #ygrp-mlmsg {font-size:13px;

font-family: arial, helvetica, clean,> sans-serif;} > #ygrp-mlmsg table

{font-size:inherit; font:100% ;}> #ygrp-mlmsg select, input, textarea {font:99%

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Georgia;> }> #ygrp-text p{> margin:0 0 1em 0;}> #ygrp-tpmsgs{ > font-family:

Arial;> clear:both;} > #ygrp-vitnav{ > padding-top: 10px;font- family:Verdana;

font-size: 77%;margin: 0;}> #ygrp-vitnav a{> padding:0 1px;}> #ygrp-actbar{ >

clear:both;margin: 25px 0;white-space: nowrap;color: #666;text- align:right; }>

#ygrp-actbar .left{> float:left;white- space:nowrap; }> .bld{font-weight:

bold;}> #ygrp-grft{> font-family: Verdana;font- size:77%; padding:15px 0;}>

#ygrp-ft{> font-family: verdana;font- size:77%;

border-top: 1px solid #666;> padding:5px 0;> }> #ygrp-mlmsg #logo{>

padding-bottom: 10px;}>> #ygrp-vital{ > background-color: #e0ecee;margin-

bottom:20px; padding:2px 0 8px 8px;}> #ygrp-vital #vithd{>> font-size:77%

;font-family: Verdana;font- weight:bold; color:#333; text-transform: uppercase;

}> #ygrp-vital ul{> padding:0;margin: 2px 0;}> #ygrp-vital ul li{>

list-style-type: none;clear: both;border: 1px solid #e0ecee;> }> #ygrp-vital ul

li .ct{>> font-weight: bold;color: #ff7900;float: right;width: 2em;text-

align:right; padding-right: .5em;}> #ygrp-vital ul li .cat{> font-weight:

bold;}> #ygrp-vital a{> text-decoration: none;}>> #ygrp-vital a:hover{>

text-decoration: underline; }>> #ygrp-sponsor #hd{> color:#999;font- size:77%;

}> #ygrp-sponsor #ov{> padding:6px 13px;background- color:#e0ecee;

margin-bottom: 20px;}> #ygrp-sponsor #ov ul{> padding:0 0 0 8px;margin:0; }>

#ygrp-sponsor #ov li{> list-style-type: square;padding: 6px 0;font-size: 77%;}>

#ygrp-sponsor #ov li a{> text-decoration: none;font- size:130% ;}>

#ygrp-sponsor #nc{> background-color: #eee;margin- bottom:20px; padding:0 8px;}>

#ygrp-sponsor .ad{> padding:8px 0;}> #ygrp-sponsor .ad #hd1{>> font-family:

Arial;font- weight:bold; color:#628c2a; font-size: 100%;line- height:122% ;}>

#ygrp-sponsor .ad a{> text-decoration: none;}> #ygrp-sponsor .ad a:hover{>

text-decoration: underline; }> #ygrp-sponsor .ad p{> margin:0;}> o{font-size:

0;}> .MsoNormal{> margin:0 0 0 0;}> #ygrp-text tt{> font-size:120% ;}>

blockquote{margin: 0 0 0 4px;}> .replbq{margin: 4;}> -->>> ____________

_________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _> Never miss a thing. Make

your home page.> http://www.. com/r/hs>> [Non-text portions of this

message have been removed]>> >-- Board Certified

in Oriental Medicine, NCCAOMExperienced, Dedicated, EffectiveFlying Dragon

Liniment:Effective pain relief for muscles &

jointsFormulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese HerbalistAvailable at

Asheville Center for , or web order at:https://www. kamwo.com/

shop/product. php?productid= 17442 & cat= 0 & page=1Ashevill e Center For Chinese

Medicine70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing TwoAsheville, NC 28801

828.258.2777kbartle tt@AcupunctureAs heville.comwww. AcupunctureAshev

ille.com

[Guest guest]

I have mixed thoughts about this DAOM program.

 

However, I do know the value of education and experience. Clinically, you

should learn from someone who can impart their clinical pearls and teach you

new methods to apply your acupuncture and herbs. For example, I read

classical literature, educate myself in Chinese, new books on Shang Han Lun

and herbs and keep up with trends in acupuncture in English and Chinese are

always popping up. I regularly discuss difficult cases with my peers and

benefit from their suggestions as well. I also look at exceptional teachers

and frequent seminars for Continuing Ed. I always seek best practices and I

regularly do marketing and lectures.

 

Moving away from Acupuncture and Herbology as a cookbook procedure was the

biggest change for me. I had to change my original thinking of a cookbook

style of acupuncture to thinking based on channel diagnosis and imaging.

This helped me to understand how to think in . Studying

the classics where one has exposure to various treatises, and studying

insights of previous generations, then applying them in the clinic daily,

then reviewing more and more as a way of life is what leads to clinical

success. This is the roadmap that led to my personal clinical success.

 

I would also say, learning a practical acupuncture system like Tung's

Acupuncture or Chen Chao's I Ching Balance Method, learning from exceptional

herbalists, and finding a great pulse master is probably of utmost

importance for people starting out. Then going on to learn specialties like

OB/Gyn, Traumatology, Internal Medicine, Facial rejuvenation, etc., might be

secondary. I also think natural healing methods, soaks, liniments, foot

baths, exercises, alternative healing methods like homeopathy and western

herbals, and bodywork also add to the mix to be well rounded.

A DAOM program doesn't give you that, but perhaps some people need structure

to help them cross over from ignorance to wisdom.

 

Best regards,

On Jan 23, 2008 10:12 AM, Douglas Knapp <knappneedleman wrote:

 

> The interaction between myself and my colleagues has certainly been the

> most helpful thing gained from the DTOM.

>

> Douglas Knapp

> Doctoral Fellow, L.Ac.

> Full Moon Acupuncture

> 1600 York Avenue

> New York, NY 10028

> 212-734-1459

>

>

> Donald Snow <don83407 <don83407%40msn.com>>

> To:

Chinese Traditional Medicine <Chinese Traditional Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> Wednesday, January 23, 2008 11:03:03 AM

> RE: DAOM clinic results, was Professor title?, revisited

>

> Douglas has made a point, however, in our class at PCOM about a third of

> us were fresh out of the MSTOM programs. I had been out of the MSTOM program

> for 2 years and had been in private practice for about that long and some in

> the class were fresh out of the MSTOM programs. We were the 1st cohort and

> therefore, at that time, the schools were allowing new MSTOM graduates to

> apply. So you are partially correct some of my classmates were " Oldies " but

> certainly not all. Since I have graduated, I can say unequivocolly that our

> results were, indeed, superior. They were even superior to some of the

> teachers of the program.

>

> The sweetness of the program was the interaction of our peers within the

> program. We learned a great deal from each other. Most of us were " open " to

> new ideas. That is another secret to clinical success. When one thinks they

> know it all, they can no longer learn.

>

> Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc

>

> acukath (AT) gmail (DOT)

> comTue, 22 Jan 2008 10:50:53 -0500DAOM clinic results,

> was Professor title?, revisited

>

> i agree with douglas here. a 90% success rate in tx outcome is

> impressive,and i congratulate don on his well earned achievement. however,

> incontemplating the matter, i got to thinking that i get a 90% success rate

> inmy clinical practice. i have an mstom. so i would argue that the daom

> isnot required to achieve a high success rate in clinic.kathOn Jan 21,

> 2008 11:14 AM, Douglas Knapp <knappneedleman@ > wrote:> I am also

> doing the DAOM, but I must respectively disagree with Don on> one point. He

> points out the significant difference in results between the> DAOM and the

> MS students clinically. One must remember that the participants> in the DAOM

> are all clinicians that have been in practice for a number of> years, and,

> as such, it would be remiss if the results weren't better than> those just

> starting to apply their theoretical knowledge. The students in> the program

> that i attend have been in private practice for an average of> six years. If

> our

> results weren't better, there would be a big problem.>> Douglas Knapp>

> Doctoral Fellow, L.Ac.> Full Moon Acupuncture> 1600 York Avenue> New York,

> NY 10028> 212-734-1459> >> > " Kath

> Bartlett, MS, LAc " <acukath (AT) gmail (DOT) com <acukath%40gmail. com>>> To:

> Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine <Traditional_

> Chinese_Medicine %40. com>> Monday, January 21, 2008

> 9:54:09 AM> Re: Professor title?, revisited>> impressive

> results, Don.>> k>> On Jan 18, 2008 4:26 PM, Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT)

> com> wrote:>> >>> > I would be happy to respond. Yes, I do believe the

> program is worth it>> > although it is expensive and not necessary to

> practice our wonderful>> > medicine. You are absolutely right, the DAOM is

> not a PhD, it is a>> > professional doctorate. The MD is also not a Ph.D,

> it, too, is a>> > professional doctorate.>> >>> > Our program was much more

> than just a Capstone research project. In

> the>> > doctorate we delved MUCh more deeply into the various classics

> than do> the>> > Master's programs. My particular program was 3 years of

> seat time every>> > Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. Nowadays, the program has

> changed for the>> > worse I fear. It is not just one weekend or so a month

> and a lot of>> > consistancy is lost in the process. However, this is how I

> know the> program>> > was good. Our clinical outcomes were far superior to

> the Master's level>> > clinicians. We succeeded where others had failed. For

> myself, I have a> 90%>> > or better success rate of all that I treat. Before

> the DAOM I got 70-80%>> > efficacy. Not may not sound like much, but many

> clinicians would give an> arm>> > for those kinds of results. My patients

> are definitely happy and they> refer>> > a lot of work to me.>> >>> > Hope

> this helps.>> >>> > Don Snow>> >>> > traditional_ chinese_medicine

> From<traditional _> chinese_medicine %40.

> comFrom>:>> > naturaldoc1@ hotmail.comDate <naturaldoc1% 40hotmail.

> comDate>: Fri, 18> Jan>> > 2008 20:18:33 +0000RE: Professor

> title?, revisited>> >>> > Don is right in that there is a research project

> involved but these> arenot>> > meant to be a PhD (research doctorate) but

> more advanced> clinicaltraining. >> > The DAOM is to provide the difference

> in clinical training and> experience to>> > be a doctor. As most of these

> come from the west coastit might be hard> for>> > others to understand what

> the driving force is andwhy it is being> pursued so>> > rapidly by many.

> Maybe Don could addresshis experience at PCOM's DAOM> and>> > what he thinks

> are reasons relatingto its popularity. Just an FYI, there> is>> > one PhD

> program in CCM offered at AUCM if anyonewants to chime in about>> > their

> experience with that one. Mike W. Bowser, L AcTo:>> > traditional_

> chinese_medicine From<traditional _> chinese_medicine

> %40. comFrom>:>> > don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) comDate <don83407%40msn.

> comDate>: Fri, 18 Jan 2008> 11:46:56>> > -0600RE: Professor

> title?, revisitedI beg to differ, all> DAOM>> > students at PCOM had

> original capstone publishable research projects to>> > complete and then sit

> before a board. I don't suppose you have a DAOM?> Don>> > Snow DAOM, MPH,

> LAc.Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine @. > comFrom<Traditional

> _ Chinese_Medicine %40. comFrom>:>> > establishment_ man (AT) (DOT)

> comDate <establishment_ man%40. comDate>:> Fri,>> > 18 Jan 2008

> 05:15:47 +0000Re: Professor title?,> revisitedThe> > >

> doctorate programs that exist in American TCM are hardly Ph.D's. They>

> are>> > more akin to advance clinical training but since they require no>

> original>> > research or dissertation, I do not think they should be

> considered> Ph.Ddegrees. And, in fact they are not. They are DAOM>> >

> degrees.EM-- - In Traditional_

> Chinese_Medicine @. > com<Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine

> %40. com>,>>> > Donald Snow <don83407@.. .> wrote:>> > We do,

> indeed, now have a> Doctoral>> > degree and title. It is the DAOM. It is a

> doctorate degree and thus, one> may>> > " ethically " use the title once

> earned. > > Don Snow> DAOM, MPH, LAc> > >> To:>> > Traditional_

> Chinese_Medicine : dr_namnguyen58@ ...: Wed, 9 Jan 2008>> > 12:43:34

> -0800Re: Professor title?, revisited> > > > >> Thanks>> > to

> your agreement to your tittle, Kath.Another of my concern, I am not a>> >

> Ph.D in Oriental Medicine. However, I believe some or all acupuncturists>

> > > are entitled to the title " Dr. " if they have finished their Ph.Dand>> >

earned their degree from our

> schools.I think they should be allowed to>> > bear that title in which our

> states prohibited them to. If they are not> to>> > be called or entitled to

> with the title " Dr. " , then there is no one> else>> > in

> any schools without MD or any practitioners should be addressed so.> If>>

> > they ( professors or clinical supervisors ) are allowed to be addressed>

> as>> > such, then they ( other practitioners ) must have the same

honor.Ifour>> > states prohibit this title. this is not our problems. Our states

> must> stop>> > individual schools to advertise such a scam business and also

> to all> others>> > who are practicing or teaching us to be called " Dr.....

> " Otherwise,> this>> > unethical practice is still fooling the public.We ,

> acupuncturists, have>> > done everything legally, accepted and followed our

> legal procedures to> get a>> > degree which we believed in to. It is the

> problem of our school> structures>> > who are fooling all of their students

> and the public. They must be> punished>> > and must be closed if they are

> continued to do so. This is a grand fraud> , a>> > misleading to all. It is

> not our problems, but it is the school's and> our>> > states'.....

> ... What is everybody's opinion????? ???? If OMD schools> are>> > still

> fishing us to get a degree, we should be entitled to what we> invest>> >

> into ( time and money ).Nam Nguyen------ --------- --------- ---------> Be

> a>> > better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. Try it>>

> > now.

[Guest guest]

Robert,

 

It would seem to me that what you are describing may actually be part of

the DAOM experience, at least the one mentioned by several on this list. I

agree with you about learning from more experienced practitioners and also

working on cases, which is what happens a lot in various Japanese style

needling groups. I think we should try to create more groups like these.

 

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

 

________________________________

> Chinese Medicine

> chusauli

> Thu, 24 Jan 2008 12:00:23 -0800

> Re: DAOM clinic results, was Professor title?, revisited

>

>

> I have mixed thoughts about this DAOM program.

>

> However, I do know the value of education and experience. Clinically, you

> should learn from someone who can impart their clinical pearls and teach you

> new methods to apply your acupuncture and herbs. For example, I read

> classical literature, educate myself in Chinese, new books on Shang Han Lun

> and herbs and keep up with trends in acupuncture in English and Chinese are

> always popping up. I regularly discuss difficult cases with my peers and

> benefit from their suggestions as well. I also look at exceptional teachers

> and frequent seminars for Continuing Ed. I always seek best practices and I

> regularly do marketing and lectures.

>

> Moving away from Acupuncture and Herbology as a cookbook procedure was the

> biggest change for me. I had to change my original thinking of a cookbook

> style of acupuncture to thinking based on channel diagnosis and imaging.

> This helped me to understand how to think in . Studying

> the classics where one has exposure to various treatises, and studying

> insights of previous generations, then applying them in the clinic daily,

> then reviewing more and more as a way of life is what leads to clinical

> success. This is the roadmap that led to my personal clinical success.

>

> I would also say, learning a practical acupuncture system like Tung's

> Acupuncture or Chen Chao's I Ching Balance Method, learning from exceptional

> herbalists, and finding a great pulse master is probably of utmost

> importance for people starting out. Then going on to learn specialties like

> OB/Gyn, Traumatology, Internal Medicine, Facial rejuvenation, etc., might be

> secondary. I also think natural healing methods, soaks, liniments, foot

> baths, exercises, alternative healing methods like homeopathy and western

> herbals, and bodywork also add to the mix to be well rounded.

> A DAOM program doesn't give you that, but perhaps some people need structure

> to help them cross over from ignorance to wisdom.

>

> Best regards,

> On Jan 23, 2008 10:12 AM, Douglas Knapp

_______________

Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live.

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[Guest guest]

" Priceless ! "

 

We need more ideas that bring us together. I am glad this is happening.

 

 

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

 

________________________________

> Chinese Medicine

> knappneedleman

> Wed, 23 Jan 2008 10:12:39 -0800

> Re: DAOM clinic results, was Professor title?, revisited

>

>

> The interaction between myself and my colleagues has certainly been the most

helpful thing gained from the DTOM.

>

> Douglas Knapp

> Doctoral Fellow, L.Ac.

> Full Moon Acupuncture

> 1600 York Avenue

> New York, NY 10028

> 212-734-1459

>

>

> Donald Snow

_______________

Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live.

http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_012008