Professor title?, revisited

January 18, 2008

Kath has eluded to what is quite common in US TCM programs, that we often

fail to follow the norm. This continues to get us into trouble. A simple name

tag is one recent and important issue that speaks to integrity. Please see

Marnae's wonderful and thoughtful response to this issue. Maybe your new

employer needs some education on what is correct. I do applaud you

for openly asking and listening to our responses. Since this appears up

to you, look at what others in similar positions have mentioned, that

we all remember having clinical supervisor or similar statement on the

name tags. No where on these is there any professor wording.

Please choose wisely as you will be representing all of us. Mike W. Bowser, L

Ac

_______________

Climb to the top of the charts! Play the word scramble challenge with star

power.

http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_jan

January 18, 2008

SCUSOMA also has a PhD program with the Liaonang Univ in China. They used to

say you could do part of your program in LA and part in China. Not sure

what it stands at now. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

:

chineseherbs: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 00:33:45 -0800Re: TCM -

Professor title?, revisited

at the moment, the exception is Five Branches DAOM, where there is option

topursue add'l year for a research PhD via sister schools in China. ~eOn Jan 17,

2008 9:15 PM, establishment_man <establishment_manwrote:> The

doctorate programs that exist in American TCM are hardly Ph.D's.> They are more

akin to advance clinical training but since they> require no original research

or dissertation, I do not think they> should be considered Ph.D degrees. And, in

fact they are not. They> are DAOM degrees.>> EM>>[Non-text portions of this

message have been removed]

_______________

Helping your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging. You IM, we give.

http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Home/?source=text_hotmail_join

January 18, 2008

I would be happy to respond. Yes, I do believe the program is worth it although

it is expensive and not necessary to practice our wonderful medicine. You are

absolutely right, the DAOM is not a PhD, it is a professional doctorate. The MD

is also not a Ph.D, it, too, is a professional doctorate.

Our program was much more than just a Capstone research project. In the

doctorate we delved MUCh more deeply into the various classics than do the

Master's programs. My particular program was 3 years of seat time every Friday,

Saturday, and Sunday. Nowadays, the program has changed for the worse I fear.

It is not just one weekend or so a month and a lot of consistancy is lost in the

process. However, this is how I know the program was good. Our clinical

outcomes were far superior to the Master's level clinicians. We succeeded where

others had failed. For myself, I have a 90% or better success rate of all that

I treat. Before the DAOM I got 70-80% efficacy. Not may not sound like much,

but many clinicians would give an arm for those kinds of results. My patients

are definitely happy and they refer a lot of work to me.

Hope this helps.

Don Snow

:

naturaldoc1: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 20:18:33 +0000RE: TCM -

Professor title?, revisited

Don is right in that there is a research project involved but these arenot meant

to be a PhD (research doctorate) but more advanced clinicaltraining. The DAOM is

to provide the difference in clinical training and experience to be a doctor. As

most of these come from the west coastit might be hard for others to understand

what the driving force is andwhy it is being pursued so rapidly by many. Maybe

Don could addresshis experience at PCOM's DAOM and what he thinks are reasons

relatingto its popularity. Just an FYI, there is one PhD program in CCM offered

at AUCM if anyonewants to chime in about their experience with that one. Mike W.

Bowser, L Ac:

don83407: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 11:46:56 -0600RE: TCM -

Professor title?, revisitedI beg to differ, all DAOM students at PCOM had

original capstone publishable research projects to complete and then sit before

a board. I don't suppose you have a DAOM? Don Snow DAOM, MPH, LAc.To:

Chinese Medicine:

establishment_man: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 05:15:47 +0000Re: TCM

- Professor title?, revisitedThe doctorate programs that exist in American TCM

are hardly Ph.D's. They are more akin to advance clinical training but since

they require no original research or dissertation, I do not think they should be

considered Ph.D degrees. And, in fact they are not. They are DAOM degrees.EM---

In Chinese Medicine , Donald Snow <don83407

wrote:>> > We do, indeed, now have a Doctoral degree and title. It is the DAOM.

It is a doctorate degree and thus, one may " ethically " use the title once

earned. > > Don Snow> DAOM, MPH, LAc> > > :

dr_namnguyen58: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 12:43:34 -0800Re: Professor

title?, revisited> > > > > Thanks to your agreement to your tittle, Kath.Another

of my concern, I am not a Ph.D in Oriental Medicine. However, I believe some or

all acupuncturists are entitled to the title " Dr. " if they have finished their

Ph.D and earned their degree from our schools.I think they should be allowed to

bear that title in which our states prohibited them to. If they are not to be

called or entitled to with the title " Dr. " , then there is no one else in any

schools without MD or any practitioners should be addressed so. If they (

professors or clinical supervisors ) are allowed to be addressed as such, then

they ( other practitioners ) must have the same honor.If our states prohibit

this title. this is not our problems. Our states must stop individual schools to

advertise such a scam business and also to all others who are practicing or

teaching us to be called " Dr..... " Otherwise, this unethical practice is still

fooling the public.We , acupuncturists, have done everything legally, accepted

and followed our legal procedures to get a degree which we believed in to. It is

the problem of our school structures who are fooling all of their students and

the public. They must be punished and must be closed if they are continued to do

so. This is a grand fraud , a misleading to all. It is not our problems, but it

is the school's and our states'........ What is everybody's opinion????????? If

OMD schools are still fishing us to get a degree, we should be entitled to what

we invest into ( time and money ).Nam NguyenBe

a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. Try it

now.

January 21, 2008

impressive results, Don.

k

On Jan 18, 2008 4:26 PM, Donald Snow <don83407 wrote:

>

> I would be happy to respond. Yes, I do believe the program is worth it

> although it is expensive and not necessary to practice our wonderful

> medicine. You are absolutely right, the DAOM is not a PhD, it is a

> professional doctorate. The MD is also not a Ph.D, it, too, is a

> professional doctorate.

>

> Our program was much more than just a Capstone research project. In the

> doctorate we delved MUCh more deeply into the various classics than do the

> Master's programs. My particular program was 3 years of seat time every

> Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. Nowadays, the program has changed for the

> worse I fear. It is not just one weekend or so a month and a lot of

> consistancy is lost in the process. However, this is how I know the program

> was good. Our clinical outcomes were far superior to the Master's level

> clinicians. We succeeded where others had failed. For myself, I have a 90%

> or better success rate of all that I treat. Before the DAOM I got 70-80%

> efficacy. Not may not sound like much, but many clinicians would give an arm

> for those kinds of results. My patients are definitely happy and they refer

> a lot of work to me.

>

> Hope this helps.

>

> Don Snow

>

> To:

Chinese Traditional Medicine<Chinese Traditional Medicine%40\

From>:

> naturaldoc1 <naturaldoc1%40hotmail.comDate>: Fri, 18 Jan

> 2008 20:18:33 +0000RE: Professor title?, revisited

>

> Don is right in that there is a research project involved but these arenot

> meant to be a PhD (research doctorate) but more advanced clinicaltraining.

> The DAOM is to provide the difference in clinical training and experience to

> be a doctor. As most of these come from the west coastit might be hard for

> others to understand what the driving force is andwhy it is being pursued so

> rapidly by many. Maybe Don could addresshis experience at PCOM's DAOM and

> what he thinks are reasons relatingto its popularity. Just an FYI, there is

> one PhD program in CCM offered at AUCM if anyonewants to chime in about

> their experience with that one. Mike W. Bowser, L AcTo:

>

Chinese Traditional Medicine<Chinese Traditional Medicine%40\

From>:

> don83407 <don83407%40msn.comDate>: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 11:46:56

> -0600RE: Professor title?, revisitedI beg to differ, all DAOM

> students at PCOM had original capstone publishable research projects to

> complete and then sit before a board. I don't suppose you have a DAOM? Don

> Snow DAOM, MPH, LAc.To:

Chinese Medicine<Chinese Medicine%40\

From>:

> establishment_man <establishment_man%40Date>: Fri,

> 18 Jan 2008 05:15:47 +0000Re: Professor title?, revisitedThe

> doctorate programs that exist in American TCM are hardly Ph.D's. They are

> more akin to advance clinical training but since they require no original

> research or dissertation, I do not think they should be considered

Ph.Ddegrees. And, in fact they are not. They are DAOM

> degrees.EM--- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>,

> Donald Snow <don83407 wrote:>> > We do, indeed, now have a Doctoral

> degree and title. It is the DAOM. It is a doctorate degree and thus, one may

> " ethically " use the title once earned. > > Don Snow> DAOM, MPH, LAc> > > To:

> Chinese Medicine: dr_namnguyen58: Wed, 9 Jan 2008

> 12:43:34 -0800Re: Professor title?, revisited> > > > > Thanks

> to your agreement to your tittle, Kath.Another of my concern, I am not a

> Ph.D in Oriental Medicine. However, I believe some or all acupuncturists

> are entitled to the title " Dr. " if they have finished their Ph.D and

> earned their degree from our schools.I think they should be allowed to

> bear that title in which our states prohibited them to. If they are not to

> be called or entitled to with the title " Dr. " , then there is no one else

> in any schools without MD or any practitioners should be addressed so. If

> they ( professors or clinical supervisors ) are allowed to be addressed as

> such, then they ( other practitioners ) must have the same honor.If our

> states prohibit this title. this is not our problems. Our states must stop

> individual schools to advertise such a scam business and also to all others

> who are practicing or teaching us to be called " Dr..... " Otherwise, this

> unethical practice is still fooling the public.We , acupuncturists, have

> done everything legally, accepted and followed our legal procedures to get a

> degree which we believed in to. It is the problem of our school structures

> who are fooling all of their students and the public. They must be punished

> and must be closed if they are continued to do so. This is a grand fraud , a

> misleading to all. It is not our problems, but it is the school's and our

> states'........ What is everybody's opinion????????? If OMD schools are

> still fishing us to get a degree, we should be entitled to what we invest

> into ( time and money ).Nam NguyenBe a

> better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. Try it

> now.

January 21, 2008

I am also doing the DAOM, but I must respectively disagree with Don on one

point. He points out the significant difference in results between the DAOM and

the MS students clinically. One must remember that the participants in the DAOM

are all clinicians that have been in practice for a number of years, and, as

such, it would be remiss if the results weren't better than those just starting

to apply their theoretical knowledge. The students in the program that i attend

have been in private practice for an average of six years. If our results

weren't better, there would be a big problem.

Douglas Knapp

Doctoral Fellow, L.Ac.

Full Moon Acupuncture

1600 York Avenue

New York, NY 10028

212-734-1459

" "

Chinese Medicine

Monday, January 21, 2008 9:54:09 AM

Re: Professor title?, revisited

impressive results, Don.

k

On Jan 18, 2008 4:26 PM, Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com> wrote: