Guest guest Posted November 2, 2004 Report Share Posted November 2, 2004 > > ------ Forwarded Message >> " Ricardo Saldanha - Laser Clinic " >> <ricardosaldanha >> Thu, 2 Sep 2004 16:11:24 +0100 >> <support-sd >> chinese herbs >> Resent-<support-sd >> Resent-Thu, 02 Sep 2004 08:13:42 -0700 >> >> >> Dear Sir, >> >> I am currently running a chinese medicine clinic and have been >> planning to >> add " fitotherapy " to the list of therapies available in my clinic. >> However such is not possible since the price at which chinese herbs >> arrive >> in Portugal are prohibitive. So, I would like to ask you for a >> contact of a >> chinese company that exports these herbs so that I can buy them >> directly >> from China. >> Best regards, >> >> >> >> >> Ricardo Saldanha - Gerente >> >> >> >> Rua Santa Catarina, 375, sala 32 >> 4000-451 Porto >> Tel./Fax 222033095 >> <geral geral - >> www.laserclinic.pt >> > Chinese Herbs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2007 Report Share Posted December 31, 2007 So far, Andrea, I've heard nothing, or had any resistance to taking Chinese herbs. I think the trust in the practitioner is the key issue, and they trust that I will only give them the best quality medicine I can. .. Z'ev On Dec 31, 2007, at 7:13 AM, wrote: > So I am writing to you, my esteemed colleagues, to ask whether you > are also encountering this phenomenon in your part of the world, and > how you are responding to it. Are you also looking for a different > way to promote the herbal part of your practice? Are you doing > public education talks on the subject? Are you handling it one-on- > one with your clients? Or are you waiting for this storm to pass? > What do you find is working, and what is not? Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2007 Report Share Posted December 31, 2007 Dear Colleagues, Due to the information that has come to light this past year about herbal medicines and other products coming out of China that has been tainted in one way or another, I am finding more of my patients are increasingly resistant to taking " Chinese " herbs. They are concerned about purity and safety. I have received letters from several herbal manufacturers addressing this very issue in recent months, intended to assure me that they take the most stringent measures to use substances that are free of drugs, chemicals, toxins, organisms, and are the proper species. While that is well and good, I find sharing these articles with my patients does nothing to assuage their concern, and further, advertising that I offer Chinese Herbal Medicine is, at this point in time, viewed rather suspiciously - rather than as an attractive, healthy alternative to pharmaceutical drugs with their incipient host of side effects. So I find I am experimenting with the wording on my business cards and other advertising. Mainly, I find I am leaving out the word " Chinese " ! My most recent wordage attempts are " Acupuncture and Herbal Therapies " or " Acupuncture and Herbal Medicines " , or " Acupuncture and Asian Herbal Medicine " , but these sound wishy-washy to me. I am personally proud of the lineage of Chinese Herbal Medicine, yet I find I cannot reconcile it with the public fear that surrounds medicinal substances coming from China and all of Asia right now. They are suspect in the public eye - at least in the part of Arizona where I currently live and practice. So I am writing to you, my esteemed colleagues, to ask whether you are also encountering this phenomenon in your part of the world, and how you are responding to it. Are you also looking for a different way to promote the herbal part of your practice? Are you doing public education talks on the subject? Are you handling it one-on-one with your clients? Or are you waiting for this storm to pass? What do you find is working, and what is not? In a similar vein, I also find my NCCAOM designation, Dipl. OM, to be useless. People do not know what Oriental Medicine is, and further, to many people who don't know any better, " Oriental " , is identical with " Chinese " ... thus bringing up the suspicions and wariness I mentioned above. So before I go about trying to reinvent how I conceive of the work I do and how to present it to the public in a more " palatable " and less threatening way, I thought I'd ask your input. I know you're a fantastically creative bunch, and I imagine this issue is affecting you and your practice in one way or another. Perhaps we can find solutions together. You may contact me off-list or on. All blessings for a happy, healthy and abundant new year, Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Search. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 1, 2008 Report Share Posted January 1, 2008 Andrea: Let me attempt to address some of your concerns, and I apologize in advance if I am not hitting the nail on the head with the issue. My computer skills are limited, so it is hard for me to address every issue right under your email. The major problem I see is that you have to be confident in what you are offering. If you know in your heart that these are good manufacturers of Chinese herbs, then that is how you present it to your patients. I would not eliminate the word Chinese on your business cards if that is what it says now. Companies we use have inspectors in China guaranteeing the quality of the herbs. This is probably not true for Walmart and Toys R Us. Some patients will still be hesitant, even if you reassure them. And that is okay. Just let it go. I use a lot of nutraceuticals that I feel very confident about. I also use patent herbs where I trust the manufactures, and I express this to patients. Andrea, you are probably fine presenting yourself just as you do now. Just express your own confidence in your products and let the patient do as they will. Anne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 1, 2008 Report Share Posted January 1, 2008 Andrea, I have had similar experiences. My herbal sales have dropped considerably in the past year. People just don't want to take them. Perhaps I am not confident enough to persuade them. I just don't like pushing patients to do something they are not comfortable with and I don't seem to be the one to persuade them. I use Kan herbs and Golden Flower, both of which have the highest standards. Still, like you, I get resistance. The NCCAOM " OM " designation means nothing to most of the public. They want to know if you are licensed by the state, thats all. In Arizona, as you know, you don't need the " OM " to get licensed. Arizona is a pretty conservative state and Cottonwood is likely more conservative than Phoenix being mostly retirees. You need to meet your patients where they are at and then become the bridge to the beauty of Chinese medicine. You can't expect them to come to Chinese medicine without that bridge as it is likely just too strange for most of them. 99% of my patients I talk mostly in Western terms with as that is what they understand. Only if they seem interested will I get into Qi, Jing, meridians etc. I usually will always tease them with something like, " In Chinese medicine the Spleen energy is related to metabolism " .or " Depression is usually related to the blocked flow of Liver energy in Chinese medicine. " If they seem interested, I get into more detail, if not I just go about my treatment. You need to market to your target patient base. If that happens to be white retired Americans because of where your practice is, then that is the reality of where you are at and it may be appropriate to not mention " Chinese " or " Oriental " in your marketing. Most people connect acupuncture with Chinese however. Best of luck to you and Happy New Year! Chris Vedeler L.Ac. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 1, 2008 Report Share Posted January 1, 2008 > In a similar vein, I also find my NCCAOM designation, Dipl. OM, to be > useless. People do not know what Oriental Medicine is, This might be helpful, if you can pay the extra money: http://www.nccaom.org/diplomates_news_aaom.htm#OM%20Certificates%20Order or, if that doesn't come through correctly: http://tinyurl.com/ywagek " the NCCAOM Board of Commissioners has approved a new policy which allows Oriental Medicine Diplomates or Applicants to become recertified or certified respectively in overlapping certification programs (Acupuncture and/or Chinese Herbology) with no additional recertification or certification requirements. Applicants may submit the form and payment along with their application and will receive the additional Acupuncture and/or Chinese Herbology certification(s) once their Oriental Medicine certification has been completed. " HTH. Jeri Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 2, 2008 Report Share Posted January 2, 2008 Hi Jeri, Yes, I know about this. Rather than pay the additional $100 per certificate (I think I remember that's what the fee is), I keep my Dipl. Acupuncture and Dipl. Herbology certificates on my wall, even though they have expired. Thank you for the reminder. kurvenal <kurvenal wrote: > In a similar vein, I also find my NCCAOM designation, Dipl. OM, to be > useless. People do not know what Oriental Medicine is, This might be helpful, if you can pay the extra money: http://www.nccaom.org/diplomates_news_aaom.htm#OM%20Certificates%20Order or, if that doesn't come through correctly: http://tinyurl.com/ywagek " the NCCAOM Board of Commissioners has approved a new policy which allows Oriental Medicine Diplomates or Applicants to become recertified or certified respectively in overlapping certification programs (Acupuncture and/or Chinese Herbology) with no additional recertification or certification requirements. Applicants may submit the form and payment along with their application and will receive the additional Acupuncture and/or Chinese Herbology certification(s) once their Oriental Medicine certification has been completed. " HTH. Jeri Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia and adjust accordingly. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2008 Report Share Posted January 6, 2008 Thank you to all who replied to my earlier post on this topic. I believe there is truth in the importance of having confidence in the products I recommend, and I do. I also believe that what Chris says below, about understand my local patient base, is essential, and speaks to the issue of what I am experiencing locally. Although nearby Sedona is full of " alternative-minded " folks, the popular concern there these days is " cleansing " , and these folks are not the people who come to see me anyway. I see mainly older retired ranching folks and a smattering of 50-somethings who are, in my opinion, overly suspicious - but the client most vigilant in her refusal to take anything that comes from China is a 19 year-old woman who is rather extreme in her fear of toxins. I will continue to ponder how I want to be offering herbal medicines to my patients. Thanks again, Andrea Beth Christopher Vedeler <vedeler wrote: Andrea Beth, I have had similar experiences. My herbal sales have dropped considerably in the past year. People just don't want to take them. Perhaps I am not confident enough to persuade them. I just don't like pushing patients to do something they are not comfortable with and I don't seem to be the one to persuade them. I use Kan herbs and Golden Flower, both of which have the highest standards. Still, like you, I get resistance. The NCCAOM " OM " designation means nothing to most of the public. They want to know if you are licensed by the state, thats all. In Arizona, as you know, you don't need the " OM " to get licensed. Arizona is a pretty conservative state and Cottonwood is likely more conservative than Phoenix being mostly retirees. You need to meet your patients where they are at and then become the bridge to the beauty of Chinese medicine. You can't expect them to come to Chinese medicine without that bridge as it is likely just too strange for most of them. 99% of my patients I talk mostly in Western terms with as that is what they understand. Only if they seem interested will I get into Qi, Jing, meridians etc. I usually will always tease them with something like, " In Chinese medicine the Spleen energy is related to metabolism " .or " Depression is usually related to the blocked flow of Liver energy in Chinese medicine. " If they seem interested, I get into more detail, if not I just go about my treatment. You need to market to your target patient base. If that happens to be white retired Americans because of where your practice is, then that is the reality of where you are at and it may be appropriate to not mention " Chinese " or " Oriental " in your marketing. Most people connect acupuncture with Chinese however. Best of luck to you and Happy New Year! Chris Vedeler L.Ac. Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Search. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2008 Report Share Posted January 6, 2008 Andrea, I've experienced many more inquiries from my clients about product sourcing lately and I think there are a couple of issues that are driving the concerns that they have. Generally I think patients are more distrustful in general of prescriptions be they pharmaceutical or herbal. They have seen too many news reports in the past several years of wonder drugs gone bad or overdoses of " safe herbs " killing their local hometown baseball hero. I live in that baseball players home town and I get questions about herb safety all the time. I think this is a good trend. I want my clients asking questions about everything that is going in their mouth. They have learned that they can't trust the FDA and the agricultural agencies to protect them and their doctors can't predict the side effects so why should they trust us? Just because we say so? I'm being a bit extreme here just to illustrate the point but that is what it boils down to. The China question is coming up more frequently in my office. I find that if I draw the distinction between Taiwan sourcing and China most clients are reassured. Of course that is only good for powders and patents. Australian GMP means nothing to my clients, if anything it has made a few clients wonder why our standards are not as good creating more distrust and skepticism. I have found that products labeled by a US manufacturer engender more trust but I attribute that to a mild unexamined xenophobia rather than informed choice. Perhaps with your client base you might try some direct education through written material or lectures to inform them about the subject. As far as the 19y.o. Chinese woman it sounds as if a mental health referral and evaluation might be useful. Good luck with this ongoing issue. Happy New Year, Michael Chinese Medicine , Andrea Beth Damsky < wrote: > > Thank you to all who replied to my earlier post on this topic. I believe there is truth in the importance of having confidence in the products I recommend, and I do. I also believe that what Chris says below, about understand my local patient base, is essential, and speaks to the issue of what I am experiencing locally. Although nearby Sedona is full of " alternative-minded " folks, the popular concern there these days is " cleansing " , and these folks are not the people who come to see me anyway. I see mainly older retired ranching folks and a smattering of 50-somethings who are, in my opinion, overly suspicious - but the client most vigilant in her refusal to take anything that comes from China is a 19 year-old woman who is rather extreme in her fear of toxins. I will continue to ponder how I want to be offering herbal medicines to my patients. > > Thanks again, > Andrea Beth > > > Christopher Vedeler <vedeler wrote: Andrea Beth, > > I have had similar experiences. My herbal sales have dropped > considerably in the past year. People just don't want to take them. > Perhaps I am not confident enough to persuade them. I just don't like > pushing patients to do something they are not comfortable with and I > don't seem to be the one to persuade them. I use Kan herbs and Golden Flower, both of which have the highest standards. Still, like you, I > get resistance. > > The NCCAOM " OM " designation means nothing to most of the public. They > want to know if you are licensed by the state, thats all. In Arizona, > as you know, you don't need the " OM " to get licensed. > > Arizona is a pretty conservative state and Cottonwood is likely more > conservative than Phoenix being mostly retirees. You need to meet your patients where they are at and then become the bridge to the beauty of > Chinese medicine. You can't expect them to come to Chinese medicine without that bridge as it is likely just too strange for most of them. > 99% of my patients I talk mostly in Western terms with as that is what > they understand. Only if they seem interested will I get into Qi, Jing, > meridians etc. I usually will always tease them with something like, > " In Chinese medicine the Spleen energy is related to metabolism " .or > " Depression is usually related to the blocked flow of Liver energy in > Chinese medicine. " If they seem interested, I get into more detail, if > not I just go about my treatment. > > You need to market to your target patient base. If that happens to be > white retired Americans because of where your practice is, then that is > the reality of where you are at and it may be appropriate to not mention > " Chinese " or " Oriental " in your marketing. Most people connect > acupuncture with Chinese however. > > Best of luck to you and Happy New Year! > > Chris Vedeler L.Ac. > > > > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Search. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2008 Report Share Posted January 7, 2008 Thank you, Michael. I think you are right on all counts. Andrea Beth mpplac <inquiry wrote: Andrea, I've experienced many more inquiries from my clients about product sourcing lately and I think there are a couple of issues that are driving the concerns that they have. Generally I think patients are more distrustful in general of prescriptions be they pharmaceutical or herbal. They have seen too many news reports in the past several years of wonder drugs gone bad or overdoses of " safe herbs " killing their local hometown baseball hero. I live in that baseball players home town and I get questions about herb safety all the time. I think this is a good trend. I want my clients asking questions about everything that is going in their mouth. They have learned that they can't trust the FDA and the agricultural agencies to protect them and their doctors can't predict the side effects so why should they trust us? Just because we say so? I'm being a bit extreme here just to illustrate the point but that is what it boils down to. The China question is coming up more frequently in my office. I find that if I draw the distinction between Taiwan sourcing and China most clients are reassured. Of course that is only good for powders and patents. Australian GMP means nothing to my clients, if anything it has made a few clients wonder why our standards are not as good creating more distrust and skepticism. I have found that products labeled by a US manufacturer engender more trust but I attribute that to a mild unexamined xenophobia rather than informed choice. Perhaps with your client base you might try some direct education through written material or lectures to inform them about the subject. As far as the 19y.o. Chinese woman it sounds as if a mental health referral and evaluation might be useful. Good luck with this ongoing issue. Happy New Year, Michael Chinese Medicine , Andrea Beth Damsky wrote: > > Thank you to all who replied to my earlier post on this topic. I believe there is truth in the importance of having confidence in the products I recommend, and I do. I also believe that what Chris says below, about understand my local patient base, is essential, and speaks to the issue of what I am experiencing locally. Although nearby Sedona is full of " alternative-minded " folks, the popular concern there these days is " cleansing " , and these folks are not the people who come to see me anyway. I see mainly older retired ranching folks and a smattering of 50-somethings who are, in my opinion, overly suspicious - but the client most vigilant in her refusal to take anything that comes from China is a 19 year-old woman who is rather extreme in her fear of toxins. I will continue to ponder how I want to be offering herbal medicines to my patients. > > Thanks again, > Andrea Beth > > > Christopher Vedeler wrote: Andrea Beth, > > I have had similar experiences. My herbal sales have dropped > considerably in the past year. People just don't want to take them. > Perhaps I am not confident enough to persuade them. I just don't like > pushing patients to do something they are not comfortable with and I > don't seem to be the one to persuade them. I use Kan herbs and Golden Flower, both of which have the highest standards. Still, like you, I > get resistance. > > The NCCAOM " OM " designation means nothing to most of the public. They > want to know if you are licensed by the state, thats all. In Arizona, > as you know, you don't need the " OM " to get licensed. > > Arizona is a pretty conservative state and Cottonwood is likely more > conservative than Phoenix being mostly retirees. You need to meet your patients where they are at and then become the bridge to the beauty of > Chinese medicine. You can't expect them to come to Chinese medicine without that bridge as it is likely just too strange for most of them. > 99% of my patients I talk mostly in Western terms with as that is what > they understand. Only if they seem interested will I get into Qi, Jing, > meridians etc. I usually will always tease them with something like, > " In Chinese medicine the Spleen energy is related to metabolism " .or > " Depression is usually related to the blocked flow of Liver energy in > Chinese medicine. " If they seem interested, I get into more detail, if > not I just go about my treatment. > > You need to market to your target patient base. If that happens to be > white retired Americans because of where your practice is, then that is > the reality of where you are at and it may be appropriate to not mention > " Chinese " or " Oriental " in your marketing. Most people connect > acupuncture with Chinese however. > > Best of luck to you and Happy New Year! > > Chris Vedeler L.Ac. > > > > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Search. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2008 Report Share Posted January 7, 2008 Just thought people should know that TGA only requires recertification every three years and only skip batch testing. You still play Russian roulette Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2008 Report Share Posted January 7, 2008 Alon, What is TGA? (Here cmes that acronym problem of mine again - I'm sure it must be a form of dyslexia! LOL) Andrea Beth Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote: Just thought people should know that TGA only requires recertification every three years and only skip batch testing. You still play Russian roulette Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2008 Report Share Posted January 7, 2008 Alon, Thanks for the info. I think we are all playing " Chinese roulette " to a certain extent. It is instructive to peruse the web sites of some of the major suppliers of herbal products in the US. Some have very strong statements on testing and purity clearly aimed at professionals while others have short paragraphs with no substitutive information and others no easily found information at all for the professional or the consuming public. My personal inquiries have resulted in very thorough responses to " that is proprietary information we don't share " . Needless to say I dropped the latter supplier. One interesting response worth reading is Subhuti's paper on labeling issues in California which creates some perspective. These issues are huge in the natural products industry in general and they aren't going to go away any time soon. I'm getting to the point of only using products that I can produce product data for if requested. The risk/liability issues are rising and it's these kind of issues that the FDA will use to exercise their now restrained right to close small herbal dispensaries. It would be nice to see some of the product suppliers produce patient handouts for us to distribute addressing these issues. Regards, Michael > Just thought people should know that TGA only requires recertification every three years and only skip batch testing. You still play Russian roulette > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2008 Report Share Posted January 8, 2008 TGA is the australian certification alon 400 29th St. Suite 419 Oakland Ca 94609 alonmarcus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 if the pharmaceutical companies in china been found to have contaminants why do you think the herbal manufactures are doing any better? alon 400 29th St. Suite 419 Oakland Ca 94609 alonmarcus i Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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