seeking advice -- keeping kosher w/ TCM herbs

[Guest guest]

Hi all,

I have a lovely 63y.o. orthodox jewish patient with a long list of chronic

illnesses, which have been managed unsatisfactorily by an even longer list

of drugs. So far, we have used weekly acupuncture, some ear balls, and

diet/nutrition to support her healing and help her decrease the reliance on

the drugs. We were hesitant to introduce herbs because 1) she was on 13

different drugs, and 2) she was concerned about observing kosher regulations

with the herbs.

 

We've been working together for 2 months, and she's seen major improvements

in her symptoms and has decreased or eliminated 1/2 of her meds. She is

extremely encouraged by the results, and we've have begun to discuss the

possibility of using herbs to help transition her off the remaining drugs.

But keeping kosher is a #1 priority. Those of you with expertise in this

area, could you pls advise? I believe she's willing to try raw, granules,

or pills. She's quite motivated to get better and to make extra efforts in

order to keep kosher.

 

Thanks in advance!

~edith

 

--

Edith Chan, L.Ac.

Phone: 415.298.5324

www.EdithChanAcupuncture.com

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Edith,

13 drugs is a lot of drugs!

 

Kashrut (kosher status) is not an issue with herbal medicines. Like

drugs, one doesn't say a blessing over herbs or eat them as part of

the daily diet. It is a refuah, or healing. I am backed on this

issue by the local authority in Los Angeles on kosher certification. .

 

 

On Dec 4, 2007, at 3:05 PM, Edith Chan, L.Ac. wrote:

 

> Hi all,

> I have a lovely 63y.o. orthodox jewish patient with a long list of

> chronic

> illnesses, which have been managed unsatisfactorily by an even

> longer list

> of drugs. So far, we have used weekly acupuncture, some ear balls, and

> diet/nutrition to support her healing and help her decrease the

> reliance on

> the drugs. We were hesitant to introduce herbs because 1) she was on

> 13

> different drugs, and 2) she was concerned about observing kosher

> regulations

> with the herbs.

>

> We've been working together for 2 months, and she's seen major

> improvements

> in her symptoms and has decreased or eliminated 1/2 of her meds. She

> is

> extremely encouraged by the results, and we've have begun to discuss

> the

> possibility of using herbs to help transition her off the remaining

> drugs.

> But keeping kosher is a #1 priority. Those of you with expertise in

> this

> area, could you pls advise? I believe she's willing to try raw,

> granules,

> or pills. She's quite motivated to get better and to make extra

> efforts in

> order to keep kosher.

>

> Thanks in advance!

> ~edith

>

> --

> Edith Chan, L.Ac.

> Phone: 415.298.5324

> www.EdithChanAcupuncture.com

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Edith,

 

Though Z'ev is absolutely correct, and according to Halacha (Jewish Law) there

is no prohibition against using non-kosher medicinal substances, and in fact, in

the Shulchan Aruch (Code of Jewish Law) it legislates that if a forbidden

medicinal substance has a pleasant taste, one even makes a blessing over it,

the Orthodox Jew, always weighs the spiritual impact that a food has on the

soul, as well. Jewish tradition teaches that what one ingests affects the

well-being of one's soul, and that non-kosher substances can have an injurious

effect on one's moral health, spiritually clogging the heart, and deadening its

finer qualities. That is particularly true of insects and crawling things such

as reptiles, which the Torah explicitly singles out as damaging one's soul, and

even spiritually affects one's offspring. This then brings us to the question

of Chinese medicinals. As an orthodox Jew, I am constantly confronted with this

dichotomy, being concerned with the

physical well being of my patients as well as their spiritual well being. Yet

indeed the Torah tells us explicitly to " Live by them " (the commandments), which

our sages tell us means that one needs to safeguard one's health and one's life,

even if it means in an exceptional case, doing something which would be

ordinarily forbidden, such as eating a non-kosher ingredient, in order to

sustain one's life. So practically, here are the guidelines that I use: 1.

If I write a formula for an observant Jew, I preferably exclude any animal

products or byproducts. 2. If I must use non-kosher products, the least of all

evils would be to use inedible parts, such as shells. 3. The next least evil

would be edible animal products or byproducts, 4. The next least would be

byproducts of creeping things such as the moulting of the cicada (Chan Tui), or

snake skin (She Tui), and finally if no other choice were acceptable I would use

insects and reptiles themselves. In any and all

cases, though, I present the options to my patients, and let them decide,

specifically suggesting that if unsure they should consult a competent rabbinic

authority, who I also encourage to have my patient call me. By taking this

approach, I feel that we are empowering and educating our Orthodox Jewish

patients as best as we can.

 

Hope that I have been helpful. If either you or your patient have any

specific questions, feel free to contact me (323)481-5187

 

All the best,

 

 

Yehuda

 

 

 

<zrosenbe wrote:

Edith,

13 drugs is a lot of drugs!

 

Kashrut (kosher status) is not an issue with herbal medicines. Like

drugs, one doesn't say a blessing over herbs or eat them as part of

the daily diet. It is a refuah, or healing. I am backed on this

issue by the local authority in Los Angeles on kosher certification. .

 

 

On Dec 4, 2007, at 3:05 PM, Edith Chan, L.Ac. wrote:

 

> Hi all,

> I have a lovely 63y.o. orthodox jewish patient with a long list of

> chronic

> illnesses, which have been managed unsatisfactorily by an even

> longer list

> of drugs. So far, we have used weekly acupuncture, some ear balls, and

> diet/nutrition to support her healing and help her decrease the

> reliance on

> the drugs. We were hesitant to introduce herbs because 1) she was on

> 13

> different drugs, and 2) she was concerned about observing kosher

> regulations

> with the herbs.

>

> We've been working together for 2 months, and she's seen major

> improvements

> in her symptoms and has decreased or eliminated 1/2 of her meds. She

> is

> extremely encouraged by the results, and we've have begun to discuss

> the

> possibility of using herbs to help transition her off the remaining

> drugs.

> But keeping kosher is a #1 priority. Those of you with expertise in

> this

> area, could you pls advise? I believe she's willing to try raw,

> granules,

> or pills. She's quite motivated to get better and to make extra

> efforts in

> order to keep kosher.

>

> Thanks in advance!

> ~edith

>

> --

> Edith Chan, L.Ac.

> Phone: 415.298.5324

> www.EdithChanAcupuncture.com

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you so much Z'ev & Yehuda for the thoughtful responses. My patient

just emailed requesting that i speak with her Rabbi, who coincidentally

happens to oversee the restaurant kosher certification process here in San

Francisco. Patient's condition is not life-threatening, which puts things

in a somewhat grey area where she feels a consultation with the rabbi is

needed.

 

Your responses are extremely helpful. Now I can speak with the Rabbi about

specifics. Thanks so much!!!

~edith

 

--

Edith Chan, L.Ac.

Phone: 415.298.5324

www.EdithChanAcupuncture.com

 

On Dec 4, 2007 11:24 PM, wrote:

 

> Dear Edith,

>

> Though Z'ev is absolutely correct, and according to Halacha (Jewish Law)

> there is no prohibition against using non-kosher medicinal substances, and

> in fact, in the Shulchan Aruch (Code of Jewish Law) it legislates that if a

> forbidden medicinal substance has a pleasant taste, one even makes a

> blessing over it, the Orthodox Jew, always weighs the spiritual impact that

> a food has on the soul, as well. Jewish tradition teaches that what one

> ingests affects the well-being of one's soul, and that non-kosher substances

> can have an injurious effect on one's moral health, spiritually clogging the

> heart, and deadening its finer qualities. That is particularly true of

> insects and crawling things such as reptiles, which the Torah explicitly

> singles out as damaging one's soul, and even spiritually affects one's

> offspring. This then brings us to the question of Chinese medicinals. As an

> orthodox Jew, I am constantly confronted with this dichotomy, being

> concerned with the

> physical well being of my patients as well as their spiritual well being.

> Yet indeed the Torah tells us explicitly to " Live by them " (the

> commandments), which our sages tell us means that one needs to safeguard

> one's health and one's life, even if it means in an exceptional case, doing

> something which would be ordinarily forbidden, such as eating a non-kosher

> ingredient, in order to sustain one's life. So practically, here are the

> guidelines that I use: 1. If I write a formula for an observant Jew, I

> preferably exclude any animal products or byproducts. 2. If I must use

> non-kosher products, the least of all evils would be to use inedible parts,

> such as shells. 3. The next least evil would be edible animal products or

> byproducts, 4. The next least would be byproducts of creeping things such as

> the moulting of the cicada (Chan Tui), or snake skin (She Tui), and finally

> if no other choice were acceptable I would use insects and reptiles

> themselves. In any and all

> cases, though, I present the options to my patients, and let them decide,

> specifically suggesting that if unsure they should consult a competent

> rabbinic authority, who I also encourage to have my patient call me. By

> taking this approach, I feel that we are empowering and educating our

> Orthodox Jewish patients as best as we can.

>

> Hope that I have been helpful. If either you or your patient have any

> specific questions, feel free to contact me (323)481-5187

>

> All the best,

>

>

> Yehuda

>

>

> <zrosenbe <zrosenbe%40san.rr.com>> wrote:

> Edith,

> 13 drugs is a lot of drugs!

>

> Kashrut (kosher status) is not an issue with herbal medicines. Like

> drugs, one doesn't say a blessing over herbs or eat them as part of

> the daily diet. It is a refuah, or healing. I am backed on this

> issue by the local authority in Los Angeles on kosher certification. .

>

>

> On Dec 4, 2007, at 3:05 PM, Edith Chan, L.Ac. wrote:

>

> > Hi all,

> > I have a lovely 63y.o. orthodox jewish patient with a long list of

> > chronic

> > illnesses, which have been managed unsatisfactorily by an even

> > longer list

> > of drugs. So far, we have used weekly acupuncture, some ear balls, and

> > diet/nutrition to support her healing and help her decrease the

> > reliance on

> > the drugs. We were hesitant to introduce herbs because 1) she was on

> > 13

> > different drugs, and 2) she was concerned about observing kosher

> > regulations

> > with the herbs.

> >

> > We've been working together for 2 months, and she's seen major

> > improvements

> > in her symptoms and has decreased or eliminated 1/2 of her meds. She

> > is

> > extremely encouraged by the results, and we've have begun to discuss

> > the

> > possibility of using herbs to help transition her off the remaining

> > drugs.

> > But keeping kosher is a #1 priority. Those of you with expertise in

> > this

> > area, could you pls advise? I believe she's willing to try raw,

> > granules,

> > or pills. She's quite motivated to get better and to make extra

> > efforts in

> > order to keep kosher.

> >

> > Thanks in advance!

> > ~edith

> >

> > --

> > Edith Chan, L.Ac.

> > Phone: 415.298.5324

> > www.EdithChanAcupuncture.com

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Yehuda,

 

I appreciate your thorough thoughtfulness on this topic. Though I myself do not

keep kosher, I have family members who do and may someday have patients who do

also. I think these are excellent and sensible guidelines. Thank you.

 

 

 

wrote: Dear Edith,

 

Though Z'ev is absolutely correct, and according to Halacha (Jewish Law) there

is no prohibition against using non-kosher medicinal substances, and in fact, in

the Shulchan Aruch (Code of Jewish Law) it legislates that if a forbidden

medicinal substance has a pleasant taste, one even makes a blessing over it,

the Orthodox Jew, always weighs the spiritual impact that a food has on the

soul, as well. Jewish tradition teaches that what one ingests affects the

well-being of one's soul, and that non-kosher substances can have an injurious

effect on one's moral health, spiritually clogging the heart, and deadening its

finer qualities. That is particularly true of insects and crawling things such

as reptiles, which the Torah explicitly singles out as damaging one's soul, and

even spiritually affects one's offspring. This then brings us to the question

of Chinese medicinals. As an orthodox Jew, I am constantly confronted with this

dichotomy, being concerned with the

physical well being of my patients as well as their spiritual well being. Yet

indeed the Torah tells us explicitly to " Live by them " (the commandments), which

our sages tell us means that one needs to safeguard one's health and one's life,

even if it means in an exceptional case, doing something which would be

ordinarily forbidden, such as eating a non-kosher ingredient, in order to

sustain one's life. So practically, here are the guidelines that I use: 1.

If I write a formula for an observant Jew, I preferably exclude any animal

products or byproducts. 2. If I must use non-kosher products, the least of all

evils would be to use inedible parts, such as shells. 3. The next least evil

would be edible animal products or byproducts, 4. The next least would be

byproducts of creeping things such as the moulting of the cicada (Chan Tui), or

snake skin (She Tui), and finally if no other choice were acceptable I would use

insects and reptiles themselves. In any and all

cases, though, I present the options to my patients, and let them decide,

specifically suggesting that if unsure they should consult a competent rabbinic

authority, who I also encourage to have my patient call me. By taking this

approach, I feel that we are empowering and educating our Orthodox Jewish

patients as best as we can.

 

Hope that I have been helpful. If either you or your patient have any

specific questions, feel free to contact me (323)481-5187

 

All the best,

 

 

Yehuda

 

 

 

wrote:

Edith,

13 drugs is a lot of drugs!

 

Kashrut (kosher status) is not an issue with herbal medicines. Like

drugs, one doesn't say a blessing over herbs or eat them as part of

the daily diet. It is a refuah, or healing. I am backed on this

issue by the local authority in Los Angeles on kosher certification. .

 

 

On Dec 4, 2007, at 3:05 PM, Edith Chan, L.Ac. wrote:

 

> Hi all,

> I have a lovely 63y.o. orthodox jewish patient with a long list of

> chronic

> illnesses, which have been managed unsatisfactorily by an even

> longer list

> of drugs. So far, we have used weekly acupuncture, some ear balls, and

> diet/nutrition to support her healing and help her decrease the

> reliance on

> the drugs. We were hesitant to introduce herbs because 1) she was on

> 13

> different drugs, and 2) she was concerned about observing kosher

> regulations

> with the herbs.

>

> We've been working together for 2 months, and she's seen major

> improvements

> in her symptoms and has decreased or eliminated 1/2 of her meds. She

> is

> extremely encouraged by the results, and we've have begun to discuss

> the

> possibility of using herbs to help transition her off the remaining

> drugs.

> But keeping kosher is a #1 priority. Those of you with expertise in

> this

> area, could you pls advise? I believe she's willing to try raw,

> granules,

> or pills. She's quite motivated to get better and to make extra

> efforts in

> order to keep kosher.

>

> Thanks in advance!

> ~edith

>

> --

> Edith Chan, L.Ac.

> Phone: 415.298.5324

> www.EdithChanAcupuncture.com

>

>

[Guest guest]

Yehuda,

I agree with you. Thank you for taking on the issue more in depth

past my quick e-mail. My point was aimed primarily at plant

substances, which I try to limit myself to in my own practice,

generally avoiding insects and animal parts. However, I did get a

ruling from a major Rabbi in Denver that animal parts that are not

used primarily as food, such as oyster shells or 'dragon bones' are

permissible as medicine. And, yes, sometimes a halachic authority is

required on specific sensitive issues. For example, sometimes yin

yang huo/hb. epimidium is fried in goat fat.

 

My main point is that sometimes one gets observant Jewish clients

who refuse to take any herbs because of kosher issues. Even though

most pharmaceuticals are chemically based, some do have coatings or

ingredients that have questionable kashrut, and yet there is more

willingness to take them or find ways to make them permissible.

 

 

On Dec 4, 2007, at 11:24 PM, yehuda frischman wrote:

 

> Dear Edith,

>

> Though Z'ev is absolutely correct, and according to Halacha (Jewish

> Law) there is no prohibition against using non-kosher medicinal

> substances, and in fact, in the Shulchan Aruch (Code of Jewish Law)

> it legislates that if a forbidden medicinal substance has a pleasant

> taste, one even makes a blessing over it, the Orthodox Jew, always

> weighs the spiritual impact that a food has on the soul, as well.

> Jewish tradition teaches that what one ingests affects the well-

> being of one's soul, and that non-kosher substances can have an

> injurious effect on one's moral health, spiritually clogging the

> heart, and deadening its finer qualities. That is particularly true

> of insects and crawling things such as reptiles, which the Torah

> explicitly singles out as damaging one's soul, and even spiritually

> affects one's offspring. This then brings us to the question of

> Chinese medicinals. As an orthodox Jew, I am constantly confronted

> with this dichotomy, being concerned with the

> physical well being of my patients as well as their spiritual well

> being. Yet indeed the Torah tells us explicitly to " Live by

> them " (the commandments), which our sages tell us means that one

> needs to safeguard one's health and one's life, even if it means in

> an exceptional case, doing something which would be ordinarily

> forbidden, such as eating a non-kosher ingredient, in order to

> sustain one's life. So practically, here are the guidelines that I

> use: 1. If I write a formula for an observant Jew, I preferably

> exclude any animal products or byproducts. 2. If I must use non-

> kosher products, the least of all evils would be to use inedible

> parts, such as shells. 3. The next least evil would be edible animal

> products or byproducts, 4. The next least would be byproducts of

> creeping things such as the moulting of the cicada (Chan Tui), or

> snake skin (She Tui), and finally if no other choice were acceptable

> I would use insects and reptiles themselves. In any and all

> cases, though, I present the options to my patients, and let them

> decide, specifically suggesting that if unsure they should consult a

> competent rabbinic authority, who I also encourage to have my

> patient call me. By taking this approach, I feel that we are

> empowering and educating our Orthodox Jewish patients as best as we

> can.

>

> Hope that I have been helpful. If either you or your patient have

> any specific questions, feel free to contact me (323)481-5187

>

> All the best,

>

>

> Yehuda

>

> <zrosenbe wrote:

> Edith,

> 13 drugs is a lot of drugs!

>

> Kashrut (kosher status) is not an issue with herbal medicines. Like

> drugs, one doesn't say a blessing over herbs or eat them as part of

> the daily diet. It is a refuah, or healing. I am backed on this

> issue by the local authority in Los Angeles on kosher certification. .

>

>

> On Dec 4, 2007, at 3:05 PM, Edith Chan, L.Ac. wrote:

>

> > Hi all,

> > I have a lovely 63y.o. orthodox jewish patient with a long list of

> > chronic

> > illnesses, which have been managed unsatisfactorily by an even

> > longer list

> > of drugs. So far, we have used weekly acupuncture, some ear balls,

> and

> > diet/nutrition to support her healing and help her decrease the

> > reliance on

> > the drugs. We were hesitant to introduce herbs because 1) she was on

> > 13

> > different drugs, and 2) she was concerned about observing kosher

> > regulations

> > with the herbs.

> >

> > We've been working together for 2 months, and she's seen major

> > improvements

> > in her symptoms and has decreased or eliminated 1/2 of her meds. She

> > is

> > extremely encouraged by the results, and we've have begun to discuss

> > the

> > possibility of using herbs to help transition her off the remaining

> > drugs.

> > But keeping kosher is a #1 priority. Those of you with expertise in

> > this

> > area, could you pls advise? I believe she's willing to try raw,

> > granules,

> > or pills. She's quite motivated to get better and to make extra

> > efforts in

> > order to keep kosher.

> >

> > Thanks in advance!

> > ~edith

> >

> > --

> > Edith Chan, L.Ac.

> > Phone: 415.298.5324

> > www.EdithChanAcupuncture.com

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I would add one more important point that you allude to, Z'ev. We need to

change the mindset of many of our patients who consider the medicines we

prescribe in pill form to be equivalent to vitamins, minerals, remedies and

other nutriceuticals. We prescribe REAL medicine and the halachas (Jewish laws)

applying to medicine need to apply to Chinese medicine as well. For, indeed,

the halacha does differentiate between medicine and vitamins.

 

Respectfully,

 

Yehuda

 

PS. BTW, I had never heard before that Yin Yang Huo is prepared with goat's

fat. It is not mentioned in either Bensky or Chen and Chen.

 

<zrosenbe wrote:

Yehuda,

I agree with you. Thank you for taking on the issue more in depth

past my quick e-mail. My point was aimed primarily at plant

substances, which I try to limit myself to in my own practice,

generally avoiding insects and animal parts. However, I did get a

ruling from a major Rabbi in Denver that animal parts that are not

used primarily as food, such as oyster shells or 'dragon bones' are

permissible as medicine. And, yes, sometimes a halachic authority is

required on specific sensitive issues. For example, sometimes yin

yang huo/hb. epimidium is fried in goat fat.

 

My main point is that sometimes one gets observant Jewish clients

who refuse to take any herbs because of kosher issues. Even though

most pharmaceuticals are chemically based, some do have coatings or

ingredients that have questionable kashrut, and yet there is more

willingness to take them or find ways to make them permissible.

 

 

On Dec 4, 2007, at 11:24 PM, yehuda frischman wrote:

 

> Dear Edith,

>

> Though Z'ev is absolutely correct, and according to Halacha (Jewish

> Law) there is no prohibition against using non-kosher medicinal

> substances, and in fact, in the Shulchan Aruch (Code of Jewish Law)

> it legislates that if a forbidden medicinal substance has a pleasant

> taste, one even makes a blessing over it, the Orthodox Jew, always

> weighs the spiritual impact that a food has on the soul, as well.

> Jewish tradition teaches that what one ingests affects the well-

> being of one's soul, and that non-kosher substances can have an

> injurious effect on one's moral health, spiritually clogging the

> heart, and deadening its finer qualities. That is particularly true

> of insects and crawling things such as reptiles, which the Torah

> explicitly singles out as damaging one's soul, and even spiritually

> affects one's offspring. This then brings us to the question of

> Chinese medicinals. As an orthodox Jew, I am constantly confronted

> with this dichotomy, being concerned with the

> physical well being of my patients as well as their spiritual well

> being. Yet indeed the Torah tells us explicitly to " Live by

> them " (the commandments), which our sages tell us means that one

> needs to safeguard one's health and one's life, even if it means in

> an exceptional case, doing something which would be ordinarily

> forbidden, such as eating a non-kosher ingredient, in order to

> sustain one's life. So practically, here are the guidelines that I

> use: 1. If I write a formula for an observant Jew, I preferably

> exclude any animal products or byproducts. 2. If I must use non-

> kosher products, the least of all evils would be to use inedible

> parts, such as shells. 3. The next least evil would be edible animal

> products or byproducts, 4. The next least would be byproducts of

> creeping things such as the moulting of the cicada (Chan Tui), or

> snake skin (She Tui), and finally if no other choice were acceptable

> I would use insects and reptiles themselves. In any and all

> cases, though, I present the options to my patients, and let them

> decide, specifically suggesting that if unsure they should consult a

> competent rabbinic authority, who I also encourage to have my

> patient call me. By taking this approach, I feel that we are

> empowering and educating our Orthodox Jewish patients as best as we

> can.

>

> Hope that I have been helpful. If either you or your patient have

> any specific questions, feel free to contact me (323)481-5187

>

> All the best,

>

>

> Yehuda

>

> <zrosenbe wrote:

> Edith,

> 13 drugs is a lot of drugs!

>

> Kashrut (kosher status) is not an issue with herbal medicines. Like

> drugs, one doesn't say a blessing over herbs or eat them as part of

> the daily diet. It is a refuah, or healing. I am backed on this

> issue by the local authority in Los Angeles on kosher certification. .

>

>

> On Dec 4, 2007, at 3:05 PM, Edith Chan, L.Ac. wrote:

>

> > Hi all,

> > I have a lovely 63y.o. orthodox jewish patient with a long list of

> > chronic

> > illnesses, which have been managed unsatisfactorily by an even

> > longer list

> > of drugs. So far, we have used weekly acupuncture, some ear balls,

> and

> > diet/nutrition to support her healing and help her decrease the

> > reliance on

> > the drugs. We were hesitant to introduce herbs because 1) she was on

> > 13

> > different drugs, and 2) she was concerned about observing kosher

> > regulations

> > with the herbs.

> >

> > We've been working together for 2 months, and she's seen major

> > improvements

> > in her symptoms and has decreased or eliminated 1/2 of her meds. She

> > is

> > extremely encouraged by the results, and we've have begun to discuss

> > the

> > possibility of using herbs to help transition her off the remaining

> > drugs.

> > But keeping kosher is a #1 priority. Those of you with expertise in

> > this

> > area, could you pls advise? I believe she's willing to try raw,

> > granules,

> > or pills. She's quite motivated to get better and to make extra

> > efforts in

> > order to keep kosher.

> >

> > Thanks in advance!

> > ~edith

> >

> > --

> > Edith Chan, L.Ac.

> > Phone: 415.298.5324

> > www.EdithChanAcupuncture.com

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Very important indeed. I think the public is conditioned to see

Chinese herbal medicine as supplements, as many herbs are available in

the health food stores in the vitamin section, or given mixed with

vitamins and minerals. I am basically against this mixing, as it is

usually done in a haphazard manner with no historical precedent.

Also, most national and state laws treat herbal medicines as

supplements.

 

 

 

P.S. I'll try to find the source for the goat fat preparation of

epimidium. I don't think it is done commonly, but it is something we

need to be aware of as a potential problem.

 

 

On Dec 5, 2007, at 11:24 AM, yehuda frischman wrote:

 

> I would add one more important point that you allude to, Z'ev. We

> need to change the mindset of many of our patients who consider the

> medicines we prescribe in pill form to be equivalent to vitamins,

> minerals, remedies and other nutriceuticals. We prescribe REAL

> medicine and the halachas (Jewish laws) applying to medicine need to

> apply to Chinese medicine as well. For, indeed, the halacha does

> differentiate between medicine and vitamins.

>

> Respectfully,

>

> Yehuda

>

> PS. BTW, I had never heard before that Yin Yang Huo is prepared with

> goat's fat. It is not mentioned in either Bensky or Chen and Chen.

>

> <zrosenbe wrote:

> Yehuda,

> I agree with you. Thank you for taking on the issue more in depth

> past my quick e-mail. My point was aimed primarily at plant

> substances, which I try to limit myself to in my own practice,

> generally avoiding insects and animal parts. However, I did get a

> ruling from a major Rabbi in Denver that animal parts that are not

> used primarily as food, such as oyster shells or 'dragon bones' are

> permissible as medicine. And, yes, sometimes a halachic authority is

> required on specific sensitive issues. For example, sometimes yin

> yang huo/hb. epimidium is fried in goat fat.

>

> My main point is that sometimes one gets observant Jewish clients

> who refuse to take any herbs because of kosher issues. Even though

> most pharmaceuticals are chemically based, some do have coatings or

> ingredients that have questionable kashrut, and yet there is more

> willingness to take them or find ways to make them permissible.

>

>

> On Dec 4, 2007, at 11:24 PM, yehuda frischman wrote:

>

> > Dear Edith,

> >

> > Though Z'ev is absolutely correct, and according to Halacha (Jewish

> > Law) there is no prohibition against using non-kosher medicinal

> > substances, and in fact, in the Shulchan Aruch (Code of Jewish Law)

> > it legislates that if a forbidden medicinal substance has a pleasant

> > taste, one even makes a blessing over it, the Orthodox Jew, always

> > weighs the spiritual impact that a food has on the soul, as well.

> > Jewish tradition teaches that what one ingests affects the well-

> > being of one's soul, and that non-kosher substances can have an

> > injurious effect on one's moral health, spiritually clogging the

> > heart, and deadening its finer qualities. That is particularly true

> > of insects and crawling things such as reptiles, which the Torah

> > explicitly singles out as damaging one's soul, and even spiritually

> > affects one's offspring. This then brings us to the question of

> > Chinese medicinals. As an orthodox Jew, I am constantly confronted

> > with this dichotomy, being concerned with the

> > physical well being of my patients as well as their spiritual well

> > being. Yet indeed the Torah tells us explicitly to " Live by

> > them " (the commandments), which our sages tell us means that one

> > needs to safeguard one's health and one's life, even if it means in

> > an exceptional case, doing something which would be ordinarily

> > forbidden, such as eating a non-kosher ingredient, in order to

> > sustain one's life. So practically, here are the guidelines that I

> > use: 1. If I write a formula for an observant Jew, I preferably

> > exclude any animal products or byproducts. 2. If I must use non-

> > kosher products, the least of all evils would be to use inedible

> > parts, such as shells. 3. The next least evil would be edible animal

> > products or byproducts, 4. The next least would be byproducts of

> > creeping things such as the moulting of the cicada (Chan Tui), or

> > snake skin (She Tui), and finally if no other choice were acceptable

> > I would use insects and reptiles themselves. In any and all

> > cases, though, I present the options to my patients, and let them

> > decide, specifically suggesting that if unsure they should consult a

> > competent rabbinic authority, who I also encourage to have my

> > patient call me. By taking this approach, I feel that we are

> > empowering and educating our Orthodox Jewish patients as best as we

> > can.

> >

> > Hope that I have been helpful. If either you or your patient have

> > any specific questions, feel free to contact me (323)481-5187

> >

> > All the best,

> >

> >

> > Yehuda

> >

> > <zrosenbe wrote:

> > Edith,

> > 13 drugs is a lot of drugs!

> >

> > Kashrut (kosher status) is not an issue with herbal medicines. Like

> > drugs, one doesn't say a blessing over herbs or eat them as part of

> > the daily diet. It is a refuah, or healing. I am backed on this

> > issue by the local authority in Los Angeles on kosher

> certification. .

> >

> >

> > On Dec 4, 2007, at 3:05 PM, Edith Chan, L.Ac. wrote:

> >

> > > Hi all,

> > > I have a lovely 63y.o. orthodox jewish patient with a long list of

> > > chronic

> > > illnesses, which have been managed unsatisfactorily by an even

> > > longer list

> > > of drugs. So far, we have used weekly acupuncture, some ear balls,

> > and

> > > diet/nutrition to support her healing and help her decrease the

> > > reliance on

> > > the drugs. We were hesitant to introduce herbs because 1) she

> was on

> > > 13

> > > different drugs, and 2) she was concerned about observing kosher

> > > regulations

> > > with the herbs.

> > >

> > > We've been working together for 2 months, and she's seen major

> > > improvements

> > > in her symptoms and has decreased or eliminated 1/2 of her meds.

> She

> > > is

> > > extremely encouraged by the results, and we've have begun to

> discuss

> > > the

> > > possibility of using herbs to help transition her off the

> remaining

> > > drugs.

> > > But keeping kosher is a #1 priority. Those of you with expertise

> in

> > > this

> > > area, could you pls advise? I believe she's willing to try raw,

> > > granules,

> > > or pills. She's quite motivated to get better and to make extra

> > > efforts in

> > > order to keep kosher.

> > >

> > > Thanks in advance!

> > > ~edith

> > >

> > > --

> > > Edith Chan, L.Ac.

> > > Phone: 415.298.5324

> > > www.EdithChanAcupuncture.com

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Absolutely. Furthermore the whole health food/naturopathic mentality of

supplementing just because something is essential or is an antioxidant is

patently fallacious. Why supplement to treat a " deficiency " just in case? The

reality is that often from diet a patient may actually have repletion mixed with

vacuity, in which case they are putting themselves further out of balance. And

then there's the constant question of bio-availability. Taking something that

is poorly absorbed definitely puts a burden on the eliminative systems, which

are probably already taxed! As far as utilizing complementarily, though, I take

a slightly different approach. Often, I suspect that herbs alone cannot be

effective if there is an underlying nutritional deficiency Just to give you a

simple example: Take the B complex which is so necessary for numerous

neurological functions. Anyone knows that taking a B complex pill, even

sublingually will make the urine VERY yellow. I consider

that a sign that the eliminative organs are being over-burdened. So what I

recommend when indicated is micro doses of B Complex powder, which is highly

absorbed. And you know what? By taking 1/16th of a teaspoon 2-3 times daily,

the urine does not change colors as qualitatively much more is absorbed. But to

take all in one supplements that include medicinal herbs I consider primitive

and potentially harmful.

 

Respectfully,

 

Yehuda

<zrosenbe wrote:

Very important indeed. I think the public is conditioned to see

Chinese herbal medicine as supplements, as many herbs are available in

the health food stores in the vitamin section, or given mixed with

vitamins and minerals. I am basically against this mixing, as it is

usually done in a haphazard manner with no historical precedent.

Also, most national and state laws treat herbal medicines as

supplements.

 

 

 

P.S. I'll try to find the source for the goat fat preparation of

epimidium. I don't think it is done commonly, but it is something we

need to be aware of as a potential problem.

 

On Dec 5, 2007, at 11:24 AM, yehuda frischman wrote:

 

> I would add one more important point that you allude to, Z'ev. We

> need to change the mindset of many of our patients who consider the

> medicines we prescribe in pill form to be equivalent to vitamins,

> minerals, remedies and other nutriceuticals. We prescribe REAL

> medicine and the halachas (Jewish laws) applying to medicine need to

> apply to Chinese medicine as well. For, indeed, the halacha does

> differentiate between medicine and vitamins.

>

> Respectfully,

>

> Yehuda

>

> PS. BTW, I had never heard before that Yin Yang Huo is prepared with

> goat's fat. It is not mentioned in either Bensky or Chen and Chen.

>

> <zrosenbe wrote:

> Yehuda,

> I agree with you. Thank you for taking on the issue more in depth

> past my quick e-mail. My point was aimed primarily at plant

> substances, which I try to limit myself to in my own practice,

> generally avoiding insects and animal parts. However, I did get a

> ruling from a major Rabbi in Denver that animal parts that are not

> used primarily as food, such as oyster shells or 'dragon bones' are

> permissible as medicine. And, yes, sometimes a halachic authority is

> required on specific sensitive issues. For example, sometimes yin

> yang huo/hb. epimidium is fried in goat fat.

>

> My main point is that sometimes one gets observant Jewish clients

> who refuse to take any herbs because of kosher issues. Even though

> most pharmaceuticals are chemically based, some do have coatings or

> ingredients that have questionable kashrut, and yet there is more

> willingness to take them or find ways to make them permissible.

>

>

> On Dec 4, 2007, at 11:24 PM, yehuda frischman wrote:

>

> > Dear Edith,

> >

> > Though Z'ev is absolutely correct, and according to Halacha (Jewish

> > Law) there is no prohibition against using non-kosher medicinal

> > substances, and in fact, in the Shulchan Aruch (Code of Jewish Law)

> > it legislates that if a forbidden medicinal substance has a pleasant

> > taste, one even makes a blessing over it, the Orthodox Jew, always

> > weighs the spiritual impact that a food has on the soul, as well.

> > Jewish tradition teaches that what one ingests affects the well-

> > being of one's soul, and that non-kosher substances can have an

> > injurious effect on one's moral health, spiritually clogging the

> > heart, and deadening its finer qualities. That is particularly true

> > of insects and crawling things such as reptiles, which the Torah

> > explicitly singles out as damaging one's soul, and even spiritually

> > affects one's offspring. This then brings us to the question of

> > Chinese medicinals. As an orthodox Jew, I am constantly confronted

> > with this dichotomy, being concerned with the

> > physical well being of my patients as well as their spiritual well

> > being. Yet indeed the Torah tells us explicitly to " Live by

> > them " (the commandments), which our sages tell us means that one

> > needs to safeguard one's health and one's life, even if it means in

> > an exceptional case, doing something which would be ordinarily

> > forbidden, such as eating a non-kosher ingredient, in order to

> > sustain one's life. So practically, here are the guidelines that I

> > use: 1. If I write a formula for an observant Jew, I preferably

> > exclude any animal products or byproducts. 2. If I must use non-

> > kosher products, the least of all evils would be to use inedible

> > parts, such as shells. 3. The next least evil would be edible animal

> > products or byproducts, 4. The next least would be byproducts of

> > creeping things such as the moulting of the cicada (Chan Tui), or

> > snake skin (She Tui), and finally if no other choice were acceptable

> > I would use insects and reptiles themselves. In any and all

> > cases, though, I present the options to my patients, and let them

> > decide, specifically suggesting that if unsure they should consult a

> > competent rabbinic authority, who I also encourage to have my

> > patient call me. By taking this approach, I feel that we are

> > empowering and educating our Orthodox Jewish patients as best as we

> > can.

> >

> > Hope that I have been helpful. If either you or your patient have

> > any specific questions, feel free to contact me (323)481-5187

> >

> > All the best,

> >

> >

> > Yehuda

> >

> > <zrosenbe wrote:

> > Edith,

> > 13 drugs is a lot of drugs!

> >

> > Kashrut (kosher status) is not an issue with herbal medicines. Like

> > drugs, one doesn't say a blessing over herbs or eat them as part of

> > the daily diet. It is a refuah, or healing. I am backed on this

> > issue by the local authority in Los Angeles on kosher

> certification. .

> >

> >

> > On Dec 4, 2007, at 3:05 PM, Edith Chan, L.Ac. wrote:

> >

> > > Hi all,

> > > I have a lovely 63y.o. orthodox jewish patient with a long list of

> > > chronic

> > > illnesses, which have been managed unsatisfactorily by an even

> > > longer list

> > > of drugs. So far, we have used weekly acupuncture, some ear balls,

> > and

> > > diet/nutrition to support her healing and help her decrease the

> > > reliance on

> > > the drugs. We were hesitant to introduce herbs because 1) she

> was on

> > > 13

> > > different drugs, and 2) she was concerned about observing kosher

> > > regulations

> > > with the herbs.

> > >

> > > We've been working together for 2 months, and she's seen major

> > > improvements

> > > in her symptoms and has decreased or eliminated 1/2 of her meds.

> She

> > > is

> > > extremely encouraged by the results, and we've have begun to

> discuss

> > > the

> > > possibility of using herbs to help transition her off the

> remaining

> > > drugs.

> > > But keeping kosher is a #1 priority. Those of you with expertise

> in

> > > this

> > > area, could you pls advise? I believe she's willing to try raw,

> > > granules,

> > > or pills. She's quite motivated to get better and to make extra

> > > efforts in

> > > order to keep kosher.

> > >

> > > Thanks in advance!

> > > ~edith

> > >

> > > --

> > > Edith Chan, L.Ac.

> > > Phone: 415.298.5324

> > > www.EdithChanAcupuncture.com

> > >

> > >