Guest guest Posted November 14, 2007 Report Share Posted November 14, 2007 Hi. I'm wondering if any of you have experience treating phantom pain. I have a patient who fell into a corn picker 30 years ago in November. He lost his left arm just above the elbow and 4 fingers on right hand, leaving only the thumb. Ever since the accident, especially this time of year, (coinciding with the anniversary and shorter, darker days), patient's left arm repeatedly cycles the pain experienced during the accident. He reports intense escalating pressure at the site, followed by the ripping/pulling action of being severed. (The patient was alone, it was dark before he was found, no " jaws of life " in those days, etc) Researching this phenomenon shows phantom pain is not at all uncommon in amputees. It is very real pain. I'm thinking of treating him with the 12 spirit points to free the missing limb, which to me is stuck in a loop of shock. I am also considering treating the left foot as a surrogate limb (similar to Korean hand acupuncture) to free the flow, while using breathing exercises (patient and practitioner) to release the bi. I would appreciate any input,comments and/or suggestions. Best regards, Janis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 14, 2007 Report Share Posted November 14, 2007 Hi Janis, I have never treated that condition myself but i know if one Shiatsu therapist whoe was successful by working on the phantom limb as if it was still a part of the body. I am not sure how you would do something similar with needling, but Tuina could work if you pactice that too? Artemis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 15, 2007 Report Share Posted November 15, 2007 Janis, Well, a new thought may not hurt, wouldn't it, Janis ? May I air my view ? " There are many amputees have lost their parts of their bodies and their fantom pain are still there, Why ? " I often asked myself. According to TCM, anywhere there is a Qi there is a life ( a sensation , a moving, an action, a motion ... ). Qi is invisible, but it exists, doesn't it? If Qi still exists , there is pain, I think. If there is no Qi, there is no feeling. We have lnown 12 main meridians, 15 lou channels, 8 extra channels and others... 12 main collaterals exist on the surface and connected by lou " connecting " channels travel deeper into the body connecting to tissues and organs. There are times when channels begin and end. Each channel is in connection with another in rhytmic time " cycling " in continuing flow without ceasing. Now the sensation is still there " real " , does it mean that its Qi still there? Probably, I think. And I think that Qi is somehow still leaking out from the pre-meridians " in flux " and cause the pain. If we do know the flow of the channels and the time its Qi will flow into the exact " fantom " channels, we may needle it to bypass or divert its flow, or against its flow into the fantom channel. If there is no more Qi flow into the fantom limbs, I guess, there is no more pain. What we want to know " the fantom pain is deep inside the bone, muscle or at surface " the main meridians or lou meridians. If the fantom pain is the left, we might needle the right limb, or we may needle the reverse- opposite limb ( such as the fantom left arm, we may choose the right arm or right leg ). The reason we borrow its neighbor energy Qi, not from the source, the fantom, because it is not there or if it is in shortage. The neighbor have more supply. I think this is how TCM use opposite side to treat the diseases and illnesses. How do we bypass or divert its Qi ? I do not think that we, TCM we sedate its Qi , thinking of this as an excess or of heat or phlegm or damp case. The lost is not excess for sure. The pain is the vibration same as in the neuropathy, the neurotransmitters stills transmit its messages and still get responses and these abnormal responses are interpreted as pain. The faster responses the more intense of pain are indicated. In this case I think we must find out the most time of pain and the most time of severe pain plus the time of no pain. This tells us when the Qi is at max flows out and cause severe pain, and the time when its Qi leaves ( empty Qi ) the fantom limb. I would think it would be best for us to concentrate on connecting points aiming at Qi ( its direction, its flow, its strength ). If we bleed its channel, I think the pain diminished temporary and may get worse " this is not a good trick " , but DIVERT , DIVERT , DIVERT!!! Any more ideas , please help ! P.S Qi flows out is expanding !!! Expanding Qi are in Fire and Wood elements ................. Other Earth ( neutral ) , Metal( descending and weakening ), Water ( contracting, centralizing , condensing )... Are these offering any help ??????????????? Nam Nguyen Good luck ! This is just a thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 15, 2007 Report Share Posted November 15, 2007 Hi Nam, Thank you for your thoughtful response. Intention and attention will help me treat this patient tomorrow. I will also have a chance to interview him more specifically about the accident. So far I suspect this trauma was inflicted over many hours where the limb was utterly assaulted: blood, bone, flesh - the whole tomato. The residual energy of the trauma has been imprinted in the cellular memory as terror and shock. How is shock treated - bleed the jing well points, DU 26,... maybe that will wake the limb back to consciousness to realize the event is history. He's hinted that the phantom pain is in a continuous loop of reliving the incident. The only remedy is keeping himself constantly active - which is difficult during the cold winter months in Wisconsin. I appreciate any thoughts or commentary - all lead to a purpose-filled intention. Janis --- dr_namnguyen58 <dr_namnguyen58 wrote: > Janis, > Well, a new thought may not hurt, wouldn't it, > Janis ? May I air my > view ? > " There are many amputees have lost their parts > of their bodies and > their fantom pain are still there, Why ? " I often > asked myself. > According to TCM, anywhere there is a Qi there is > a life ( a > sensation , a moving, an action, a motion ... ). Qi > is invisible, but > it exists, doesn't it? If Qi still exists , there > is pain, I think. > If there is no Qi, there is no feeling. > We have lnown 12 main meridians, 15 lou channels, > 8 extra channels > and others... > 12 main collaterals exist on the surface and > connected by lou " > connecting " channels travel deeper into the body > connecting to > tissues and organs. There are times when channels > begin and end. Each > channel is in connection with another in rhytmic > time " cycling " in > continuing flow without ceasing. Now the sensation > is still there " > real " , does it mean that its Qi still there? > Probably, I think. And > I think that Qi is somehow still leaking out from > the pre-meridians " > in flux " and cause the pain. If we do know the flow > of the channels > and the time its Qi will flow into the exact " > fantom " channels, we > may needle it to bypass or divert its flow, or > against its flow into > the fantom channel. If there is no more Qi flow into > the fantom limbs, > I guess, there is no more pain. > What we want to know " the fantom pain is deep > inside the bone, > muscle or at surface " the main meridians or lou > meridians. If the > fantom pain is the left, we might needle the right > limb, or we may > needle the reverse- opposite limb ( such as the > fantom left arm, we > may choose the right arm or right leg ). The reason > we borrow its > neighbor energy Qi, not from the source, the fantom, > because it is not > there or if it is in shortage. The neighbor have > more supply. I think > this is how TCM use opposite side to treat the > diseases and illnesses. > How do we bypass or divert its Qi ? I do not > think that we, TCM we > sedate its Qi , thinking of this as an excess or of > heat or phlegm or > damp case. The lost is not excess for sure. The pain > is the vibration > same as in the neuropathy, the neurotransmitters > stills transmit its > messages and still get responses and these abnormal > responses are > interpreted as pain. The faster responses the more > intense of pain are > indicated. > In this case I think we must find out the most > time of pain and the > most time of severe pain plus the time of no pain. > This tells us when > the Qi is at max flows out and cause severe pain, > and the time when > its Qi leaves ( empty Qi ) the fantom limb. > I would think it would be best for us to > concentrate on connecting > points aiming at Qi ( its direction, its flow, its > strength ). If we > bleed its channel, I think the pain diminished > temporary and may get > worse " this is not a good trick " , but DIVERT , > DIVERT , DIVERT!!! > > Any more ideas , please help ! > > P.S Qi flows out is expanding !!! Expanding Qi are > in Fire and Wood > elements ................. Other Earth ( neutral ) , > Metal( descending > and weakening ), Water ( contracting, centralizing , > condensing )... > Are these offering any help ??????????????? > > Nam Nguyen > > Good luck ! This is just a thought. > > > > > > Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at > Times > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia > for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia > > > > and adjust accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any > duplication outside the group requires prior > permission from the author. > > Please consider the environment and only print this > message if absolutely necessary. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 15, 2007 Report Share Posted November 15, 2007 Hi Janis, There has been some fascinating work done with mirrors to 'trick' the brain into thinking that the phantom limb is actually there. The brain does its best to incorporate the visual image into its field of awareness and as such the undelivered pain message abates. I need to go back and find this reference. The point being that there are ways to work with this condition to alleviate the phantom pain. D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 15, 2007 Report Share Posted November 15, 2007 A very good source on this subject is the work of V.S. Ramachandran, a neuroscientist here at UC San Diego. He has done extensive research on the phenomenon of phantom limbs. On Nov 15, 2007, at 6:43 AM, don himmelman wrote: > Hi Janis, > > There has been some fascinating work done with mirrors to 'trick' the > brain into thinking that the phantom limb is actually there. The > brain does its best to incorporate the visual image into its field of > awareness and as such the undelivered pain message abates. I need to > go back and find this reference. The point being that there are ways > to work with this condition to alleviate the phantom pain. > > D. > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 15, 2007 Report Share Posted November 15, 2007 Artemis, Don, Petra, Phil, Nam, Z'ev, etc [aka A-Z] Wonderful information! Very much appreciated. Patient just left. His accident (30 years ago) was most intense from 5pm - 8 pm. This is how I applied the first tx: 1, found a left shoulder ahshi point that stimulated the absent left forearm/hand (years ago surgery was performed to snip the stump nerve endings back to the shoulder)- did surround the dragon for 10 min. 2, concurrent with step 1, moxa'd both arms, including absent parts, plus KD1. 3. Needled bilateral KD23,KD25, LV4, SP5, ST41, and GB40 from Dennis Willmont's text on the 12 Spirit Points - 10 min. 4. Needled KD1 and DU20 as the strongest connection between earth and heaven - 15 min. Patient reported he felt energy draining from left shoulder, through stump, into and out of phantom hand - leaving a pain similar to his missing right hand (which is much less intense). He also said being still for that length of time would have been impossible for him at home because of the intensity of pain. We agreed on weekly visits and a phone report between. So what a wealth of information! I will be looking into all the suggestions including scalp acupuncture, (which I do on a couple other patients with paralysis issues). This is a great forum. Thank you very much. Janis --- <zrosenbe wrote: > A very good source on this subject is the work of > V.S. Ramachandran, a > neuroscientist here at UC San Diego. He has done > extensive research > on the phenomenon of phantom limbs. > > > On Nov 15, 2007, at 6:43 AM, don himmelman wrote: > > > Hi Janis, > > > > There has been some fascinating work done with > mirrors to 'trick' the > > brain into thinking that the phantom limb is > actually there. The > > brain does its best to incorporate the visual > image into its field of > > awareness and as such the undelivered pain message > abates. I need to > > go back and find this reference. The point being > that there are ways > > to work with this condition to alleviate the > phantom pain. > > > > D. > > > > > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine > San Diego, Ca. 92122 [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at > Times > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia > for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia > > > > and adjust accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any > duplication outside the group requires prior > permission from the author. > > Please consider the environment and only print this > message if absolutely necessary. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 16, 2007 Report Share Posted November 16, 2007 Janis, Thanks for your feedback. I hope you will succeed in this project. As you said the most intense pain was 5 - 8:00PM , it is the transitional TCM time between the UB , KID ( the water element ) and PERI( fire element ). It would be nice if we also know the time of no pain which may help us know more precisely which organ channels will calm the pain. We may know what best Qi can subdue this pain in this patient. Does it means Water and Fire elements are in disharmony ??? If it is , a well formular " Tian Wang Bu Xin Dan " would be a perfect balance… This will calm the mind and also calm the pain………….. Any idea ???? UB( taiyang foot , 3 - 5:00PM ) starts from the face and ends to the toe ( From upper down to foot, descending ). When the UB channel is empty ( at 5:00PM ), the pain is worse. This tells me that empty UB ( deficiency ) is worse. REMEMEMBER : This channel UB enters the brain, the empty UB Qi means no Qi entering the brain. This is a Fu channel and Yang ( expanding , outgoing, discharging ... but this channel going down not outgoing ) function. The going down function is the Qi of Lung, not UB itself. However, this Channels connects to SI channel. SI channel starts from little finger ( going up ) and ends at the face and connects to Du channel and from there it enters the brain. IF our hands are raised above the head, it means that this channel comes from the upper ( outer ) and enters the body, meaning that Yang descends or coming in…….. This channel starts from 1 – 3:00PM. I wish to know if the pain relates to this time ( how is it at this time ? ). KI ( Shaoyin foot, 5 - 7:00PM ) starts from the foot and enters the chest. Its Qi ascends , requires a lot of energy to fight the gravity. This Qi and Jing nourish the marrow also nourish the brain. This channel connects to the Heart channel ( the Fire element affect the mind, the brain )………. But the Heart channel starts from ( 11- 1:00PM ), does it relate to pain? ( how is it at this time ? ) PERICARDIUM ( Jueyin hand , 7- 9:00PM ) starts from the chest and ends at the finger ( its Qi coming out ). This channel connects with the Liver channel ( 1- 3:00AM )… How is the pain at this time???? CONCLUSION : Base on the time of pain is not exact because there was no time of no pain indicated. All the pain gets worst from Taiyang foot channels and Jueyin hand channels. Taiyang foot UB exhausts it Qi, pain getting worse, Shaoyin foot KID receives Qi, pain getting worse, and Jueyin hand PERI receives Qi getting worse. Can we replenish UB Qi ? Probably not ! UB does not store Qi, it borrows its Qi from the Lung ( in this case, tonify Lu Qi and makes sure it descends ). When Kid Qi is excess, there is more pain ( this does not mean Qi excess and pain exists, but more blood received and not flowing??? Does it make sense ). In this case, I warm up the KID and activate Blood and Jing make sure they are nourishing the marrow, the brain, calming the pain. PERI receives Qi and more pain exhibits meaning too much Qi ascends to the brain and disturbs the mind ( I think we need more blood to the Heart to calm the PERI ). This is all for now according to the time cycle……….. But more info would help more……… Any suggestions ???????????? Anybody ??? Good Luck, Janis ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 16, 2007 Report Share Posted November 16, 2007 Nam, the accident happened at 5 pm and he didn't get to the emergency room until 8 pm - this was 30 years ago. I will get more specific info regarding timing of current pain symptoms - However, what I was hearing him say is that the current phantom pain came on real intensly this past Sunday - and has been continuous ever since (he says he passes out eventually and thank fully sleeps from exhaustion). Am I missing something that you are trying to communicate? As far as time of no pain - I don't think it exists - ever since Nov 21, 1977 - except when he fixates his attention on something else - but the minute he lets go of that focus the pain is right back. He said at first he also had head pain (30 yrs ago)(opposite side) and a Dr in Calif told him he could relieve the pain and would instruct a WI doc what to do. No doc in WI would do the surgery - so he flew back out to Calif where the surgeon cut the nerves in the arm at the shoulder. After the surgery he had no more head pain, but the arm pain remained. He said he's tried everything, including hypnosis. Summers are better because he is a gardener with greenhouse - he grows and sells plants at Farmers Market - but now the sun goes down sooner and the winter chill is blistering, no more farmers market - all you get here is Packer fans and deerhunters, ice fishing and beer - they've earned the cheesehead name - but I digress.... Point being, it's hibernation time - you see yourself when you look into the mirror - (these must be my issues). Thanks for listening, Janis --- dr_namnguyen58 <dr_namnguyen58 wrote: > Janis, > Thanks for your feedback. I hope you will succeed > in this project. > As you said the most intense pain was 5 - 8:00PM , > it is the > transitional TCM time between the UB , KID ( the > water element ) and > PERI( fire element ). It would be nice if we also > know the time of no > pain which may help us know more precisely which > organ channels will > calm the pain. We may know what best Qi can subdue > this pain in this > patient. > Does it means Water and Fire elements are in > disharmony ??? If it > is , a well formular " Tian Wang Bu Xin Dan " would > be a perfect > balance… This will calm the mind and also calm the > pain………….. Any > idea ???? > > UB( taiyang foot , 3 - 5:00PM ) starts from the > face and ends to > the toe ( From upper down to foot, descending ). > When the UB channel > is empty ( at 5:00PM ), the pain is worse. This > tells me that empty > UB ( deficiency ) is worse. REMEMEMBER : This > channel UB enters the > brain, the empty UB Qi means no Qi entering the > brain. This is a Fu > channel and Yang ( expanding , outgoing, discharging > ... but this > channel going down not outgoing ) function. The > going down function > is the Qi of Lung, not UB itself. However, this > Channels connects to > SI channel. > SI channel starts from little finger ( going up ) > and ends at the > face and connects to Du channel and from there it > enters the brain. > IF our hands are raised above the head, it means > that this channel > comes from the upper ( outer ) and enters the body, > meaning that Yang > descends or coming in…….. This channel starts from 1 > – 3:00PM. I wish > to know if the pain relates to this time ( how is it > at this time ? ). > > KI ( Shaoyin foot, 5 - 7:00PM ) starts from the > foot and enters the > chest. Its Qi ascends , requires a lot of energy to > fight the > gravity. This Qi and Jing nourish the marrow also > nourish the brain. > This channel connects to the Heart channel ( the > Fire element affect > the mind, the brain )………. But the Heart channel > starts from ( 11- > 1:00PM ), does it relate to pain? ( how is it at > this time ? ) > > PERICARDIUM ( Jueyin hand , 7- 9:00PM ) starts from > the chest and > ends at the finger ( its Qi coming out ). This > channel connects with > the Liver channel ( 1- 3:00AM )… How is the pain at > this time???? > > CONCLUSION : Base on the time of pain is not exact > because there > was no time of no pain indicated. All the pain gets > worst from > Taiyang foot channels and Jueyin hand channels. > Taiyang foot UB > exhausts it Qi, pain getting worse, Shaoyin foot KID > receives Qi, > pain getting worse, and Jueyin hand PERI receives > Qi getting worse. > Can we replenish UB Qi ? Probably not ! UB does not > store Qi, it > borrows its Qi from the Lung ( in this case, tonify > Lu Qi and makes > sure it descends ). When Kid Qi is excess, there is > more pain ( this > does not mean Qi excess and pain exists, but more > blood received and > not flowing??? Does it make sense ). In this case, > I warm up the KID > and activate Blood and Jing make sure they are > nourishing the marrow, > the brain, calming the pain. PERI receives Qi and > more pain exhibits > meaning too much Qi ascends to the brain and > disturbs the mind ( I > think we need more blood to the Heart to calm the > PERI ). > This is all for now according to the time > cycle……….. But more > info would help more……… Any suggestions ???????????? > Anybody ??? > > Good Luck, Janis ! Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at > Times > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia > for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia > > > > and adjust accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any > duplication outside the group requires prior > permission from the author. > > Please consider the environment and only print this > message if absolutely necessary. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 16, 2007 Report Share Posted November 16, 2007 Janis, Probably I did not state clearly what we want to see, I am sorry about this. The accident happened 30 years ago ( the time of pain of that time may not be the same as of now ). Our best interest is to find out a way how to ease the pain now. In this case we may want to find out when the currently pain getting worse so we can diminish it. The most important is the time of the day ( time cycle ), then weeks or months or years ( seasoning ). If the pain is there all the time, I think this patient is in very bad shape, the mind, the shen is not clear. Too much in pain disturbing the mind, the shen, can throw you into a psycho, distress or suicide attempts... TIME OF CURRENT PAIN IS ESSENTIAL !!! the severity, the most comfortable time. If this patient is healthy and looks strong, check his or her pulses to see if they are matched. The actions and motions if they are incorporated. If they are contradicted, the case is more difficult but it does not mean there is no hope... WHY THEY ARE CONTRADICTED ? Because his Qi is not strong enough to adjust to the body responses. Strengthen and regulate Qi is a must, I do not care if the pain may seem worse at the time, but it will self-adjust minutes later. As I say , everything is manifested by Qi by the function of organs, tissues, Qi and blood. If we can redirect the abnormal Qi, not sending it out to the fantom limb, there will be no more pain. This is how I see. Our nerves can transmit signals and receive them and then interpret them as feeling. These signals ( in vibration ) are Qi. If a signal is sent out to the fantom limb and is absorbed in the atmosphere, not returning to the brain there is no pain either. Because signals are sending out and being distorted in return, it intepret them as pain... If a pain is happening, can we apply some ice ( to shrink the invisible meridians ) first to the fantom area, or apply a mirror ( to reflect the channels ) or a flame to burn the fantom meridians? We do not see them, but the patient is in real pain. If all are in vains , we might have to needle points in the opposite meridians... My approach is to needle Du 26 to calm or regulate the Shen and to reduce the pain for the mind has been affected by the pain. I think only the brain can alleviate the pain by not receiving distorted ( unhealthy ) signals... Du 16 enter the brain, G39 _ the marrow enter the brain. Those are the key points, but are at best when the pain signal is on. B62 ( taiyang channel ) connect to SI, to Du channel..... Choosing too many points is not advisable. Du26 is my best choice, needle with mild twists and observe your patient until the pain is going away, but this is just a symptomatic Rx. Find out about the time the pain exists and threatens the patient daily, and the time this patient feel most comfortable. Will this will give us a clue about Yin or Yang channels, excess or deficiency ???...... I think this case is a mixed ( a deficiency with ... ) Avoid too much minerals in calcium, magnesium, manganese and zinc, they provide too much stimulation in neurotransmitters which agitate more pain. Janis, I am just trying to see what is going on , not dare to teach you , but just a small view how I observe and treat my patients. Good luck to you , Janis ! Nam Nguyen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 16, 2007 Report Share Posted November 16, 2007 Nam, I know you're trying to help me and that's why I love this group. Don't take any of my responses in a negative way - I truly appreciate the forum where I can learn/improve/understand from listener's responses. My brain digests the information and my stomach (gut) processes the choice of action. Janis --- dr_namnguyen58 <dr_namnguyen58 wrote: > Janis, > Probably I did not state clearly what we want to > see, I am sorry > about this. The accident happened 30 years ago ( > the time of pain of > that time may not be the same as of now ). > Our best interest is to find out a way how to > ease the pain now. In > this case we may want to find out when the currently > pain getting > worse so we can diminish it. The most important is > the time of the day > ( time cycle ), then weeks or months or years ( > seasoning ). If the > pain is there all the time, I think this patient is > in very bad shape, > the mind, the shen is not clear. Too much in pain > disturbing the mind, > the shen, can throw you into a psycho, distress or > suicide attempts... > TIME OF CURRENT PAIN IS ESSENTIAL !!! the severity, > the most > comfortable time. > If this patient is healthy and looks strong, > check his or her > pulses to see if they are matched. The actions and > motions if they are > incorporated. If they are contradicted, the case is > more difficult but > it does not mean there is no hope... WHY THEY ARE > CONTRADICTED ? > Because his Qi is not strong enough to adjust to the > body responses. > Strengthen and regulate Qi is a must, I do not care > if the pain may > seem worse at the time, but it will self-adjust > minutes later. > As I say , everything is manifested by Qi by the > function of > organs, tissues, Qi and blood. If we can redirect > the abnormal Qi, not > sending it out to the fantom limb, there will be no > more pain. This is > how I see. Our nerves can transmit signals and > receive them and then > interpret them as feeling. These signals ( in > vibration ) are Qi. If a > signal is sent out to the fantom limb and is > absorbed in the > atmosphere, not returning to the brain there is no > pain either. > Because signals are sending out and being distorted > in return, it > intepret them as pain... > If a pain is happening, can we apply some ice ( > to shrink the > invisible meridians ) first to the fantom area, or > apply a mirror ( to > reflect the channels ) or a flame to burn the fantom > meridians? We do > not see them, but the patient is in real pain. If > all are in vains , > we might have to needle points in the opposite > meridians... My > approach is to needle Du 26 to calm or regulate the > Shen and to reduce > the pain for the mind has been affected by the pain. > I think only the > brain can alleviate the pain by not receiving > distorted ( unhealthy ) > signals... Du 16 enter the brain, G39 _ the marrow > enter the brain. > Those are the key points, but are at best when the > pain signal is on. > B62 ( taiyang channel ) connect to SI, to Du > channel..... > Choosing too many points is not advisable. Du26 > is my best choice, > needle with mild twists and observe your patient > until the pain is > going away, but this is just a symptomatic Rx. > Find out about the time the pain exists and > threatens the patient > daily, and the time this patient feel most > comfortable. Will this will > give us a clue about Yin or Yang channels, excess or > deficiency ???...... > I think this case is a mixed ( a deficiency with ... > ) > Avoid too much minerals in calcium, magnesium, > manganese and zinc, > they provide too much stimulation in > neurotransmitters which agitate > more pain. > Janis, I am just trying to see what is going on > , not dare to > teach you , but just a small view how I observe and > treat my patients. > > Good luck to you , Janis ! > > Nam Nguyen. > > > > > Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at > Times > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia > for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia > > > > and adjust accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any > duplication outside the group requires prior > permission from the author. > > Please consider the environment and only print this > message if absolutely necessary. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2008 Report Share Posted July 1, 2008 my experience included needling the limb as if it were there. work with the patient, get a good idea of hand placement and arm position (if it is their arm) (they usually have a sense), then with focus and intent, needle LI4, ashi points, etc. bodywork, craniosacral, shiatsu have all worked. working with ren, du and earth points for " re-centering " have helped. honor the experience and the pain. takes time usually, be patient. in peace... sydnie bryant, l.ac. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 6, 2008 Report Share Posted July 6, 2008 I was directed to this information because I also have an amputee patient. Watch this video clip of neurologist Vilayanur Ramacharan. His idea of using a mirror for the treatment of phantom limb pain is simple, beautiful, low-cost, and effective - not TCM, but certainly fascinating to those of us who appreciate those qualities in a medicine! http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/vilayanur_ramachandran_on_your_mind.h tml Also - I have been getting great results using imaging (needling opposite arm for missing leg in my case)and also auricular and scalp acu. Take care, Heidi Chinese Medicine , " acusyd " <Sydnieb wrote: > > my experience included needling the limb as if it were there. work > with the patient, get a good idea of hand placement and arm position > (if it is their arm) (they usually have a sense), then with focus and > intent, needle LI4, ashi points, etc. bodywork, craniosacral, shiatsu > have all worked. working with ren, du and earth points for > " re-centering " have helped. honor the experience and the pain. > takes time usually, be patient. > in peace... > sydnie bryant, l.ac. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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