Guest guest Posted November 13, 2007 Report Share Posted November 13, 2007 Need ideas for acu prescription for a woman with Marfan's disease. She is in hospice care at this point, meaning there's nothing else Western med can do for her. She has 'noise' in her head which interferes with her hearing. I'm getting most of this second-hand, through the hospice nurse, but apparently the MD's have said it has nothing to do with ears/hearing -- more like bleeding in the brain and iron deposits from the blood causing this noise. I think this means they don't know what is causing it. Pulse: very big and wiry and rapid. Tongue red, no coat. I therefore treated for internal Liver wind and heat. Any ideas on treatment? Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 13, 2007 Report Share Posted November 13, 2007 Hi Nancy! From the few signs you give: by the " big " pulse, what do you mean? on the surface or is it generally big in all positions? the pulse shows at least Liver involvement of some kind, and heat. Is it only floating on the surface it is Yin-deficiency. The noice in the head?is it tinnituslike noice. What is the quality of the noice, like cicadas or more like chattering machine. The former shoult point to Spleen and Kidney deficiency, the latter to Liver Yang. The ears are controlled by the kidneys. By the tounge you could think of Yin-deficiency (no coating) and empty heat (red). Since Marfans seams to affect the bones (Kidney), eyes (Liver/possibly Heart) and heart I would see what symptoms there are, and see which organs are more affected. Kind Regards Peter Johansson Chinese Medicine , " Nancy Corsaro " <eastwestacup wrote: > > Need ideas for acu prescription for a woman with Marfan's disease. She > is in hospice care at this point, meaning there's nothing else Western > med can do for her. She has 'noise' in her head which interferes with > her hearing. I'm getting most of this second-hand, through the hospice > nurse, but apparently the MD's have said it has nothing to do with > ears/hearing -- more like bleeding in the brain and iron deposits from > the blood causing this noise. I think this means they don't know what > is causing it. Pulse: very big and wiry and rapid. Tongue red, no > coat. I therefore treated for internal Liver wind and heat. Any ideas > on treatment? Thanks. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 14, 2007 Report Share Posted November 14, 2007 Hi Nancy, Guess what... your diagnosis is right on. There's more than just that, most important is Kidney yin and jing deficiency, but you should be reducing Liver Wind and Heat, as you are. Because I know you are treating hospice patients, (for those unaware, hospice means terminal... in months...) I don't think it's critical to gather text-book information. For those not familiar, a big pulse would correspond to excess, or full, possibly, overflowing. Non-the- less at issue here is making the patient more comfortable, improving the patient's symptoms, and if luck is on your side, maybe improving the patient's health and prognosis. In this case, strong stimulation is not an option. Do you have the option of leaving needles, or interdermal needles in for extended periods of time? If you do, I recommend a very simple treatmengt, with few needles, but left in for a very long time...hours at a time. The older the patient, the more I would use GB20 for it's effects on the brain... again, for a very long time if possible. I would use 3 or 4 points each treatment. Kid 3 and Liv 3, Gb 20, and take your choice.... Good luck Nancy and let everyone know how things turn out. David T. --- Nancy Corsaro <eastwestacup wrote: > Need ideas for acu prescription for a woman with > Marfan's disease. She > is in hospice care at this point, meaning there's > nothing else Western > med can do for her. She has 'noise' in her head > which interferes with > her hearing. I'm getting most of this second-hand, > through the hospice > nurse, but apparently the MD's have said it has > nothing to do with > ears/hearing -- more like bleeding in the brain and > iron deposits from > the blood causing this noise. I think this means > they don't know what > is causing it. Pulse: very big and wiry and rapid. > Tongue red, no > coat. I therefore treated for internal Liver wind > and heat. Any ideas > on treatment? Thanks. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 14, 2007 Report Share Posted November 14, 2007 Hi Nancy, David, Big pulse does not always indicate excess. Jin Gui Yao Lue's chapter on Xu Lao/Taxation Deficiency says, " mai da wei lao, ji xu yi wei lao " , which roughly translates as " big pulse indicates taxation, and extremely deficient pulse is also taxation. " Without having seen this patient, given that she is terminally ill I would guess she is extremely deficient. The tongue has no coat, indicating deficiency, and the " noise in her head " can either be tinnitus, or " nao ming " /brain ringing, both of which in the case of someone terminally ill I would guess to be related to liver and kidney deficiency leading to liver yang rising. I would not use any kind of strong stimulus (ie xie/reducing) with this kind of patient, just very mild and very few needles. I doubt there's any need to clear excess heat- any heat is more likely deficient heat. Of course, without seeing the patient I'm just fathoming a guess and putting some ideas out there for you to consider. Also, regarding the pulse. You say the pulse is wiry, but are you sure it's not ge/drumskin or kou/scallion pulse? These would both indicate a severe deficiency of liver yin and kidney jing, the kind of syndrome likely to be found in this type of patient. I've spent a lot of time in in-patient wards in China and seen a lot of terminally ill people. Very often they have these types of pulses. Also, my favorite teacher, a student of Qin Bowei, says not to use acupuncture on these patients because with acupuncture " xie yi, bu nan " / " reduction is easy, tonification is difficult " , so he feels that with acupuncture it's too easy to inadvertantly reduce even if one intends to tonify. Therefor he would either not use needles, or use very few and very mild stimulation, and most definitely use herbs. For tinnitus or naoming due to extreme liver yin and kidney jing deficiency he likes to use Da Bu Yin Wan plus salt fried zhi mu, salt fried huang bai, and ci shi. Anyway, just some thoughts. Best, Greg Chinese Medicine , David Tarlo <d1tarlo wrote: > > Hi Nancy, > Guess what... your diagnosis is right on. There's > more than just that, most important is Kidney yin and > jing deficiency, but you should be reducing Liver Wind > and Heat, as you are. > Because I know you are treating hospice patients, (for > those unaware, hospice means terminal... in months...) > I don't think it's critical to gather text-book > information. > For those not familiar, a big pulse would correspond > to excess, or full, possibly, overflowing. Non-the- > less at issue here is making the patient more > comfortable, improving the patient's symptoms, and if > luck is on your side, maybe improving the patient's > health and prognosis. > In this case, strong stimulation is not an option. Do > you have the option of leaving needles, or interdermal > needles in for extended periods of time? > If you do, I recommend a very simple treatmengt, with > few needles, but left in for a very long time...hours > at a time. The older the patient, the more I would > use GB20 for it's effects on the brain... again, for a > very long time if possible. I would use 3 or 4 points > each treatment. Kid 3 and Liv 3, Gb 20, and take your > choice.... > Good luck Nancy and let everyone know how things turn > out. > David T. > > --- Nancy Corsaro <eastwestacup wrote: > > > Need ideas for acu prescription for a woman with > > Marfan's disease. She > > is in hospice care at this point, meaning there's > > nothing else Western > > med can do for her. She has 'noise' in her head > > which interferes with > > her hearing. I'm getting most of this second-hand, > > through the hospice > > nurse, but apparently the MD's have said it has > > nothing to do with > > ears/hearing -- more like bleeding in the brain and > > iron deposits from > > the blood causing this noise. I think this means > > they don't know what > > is causing it. Pulse: very big and wiry and rapid. > > Tongue red, no > > coat. I therefore treated for internal Liver wind > > and heat. Any ideas > > on treatment? Thanks. > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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