sources and translation (was: Help with shinanye Location or Substitution)

[Guest guest]

Hi Greg,

 

Please don't apologize for your incomplete notes about the ZYDCD

entry. After the initial question about shinanye, I looked it up

and decided not to spend too much time on it myself. You actually

encouraged me to look into this and have facilitated an interesting

discussion. Well, I also and most importantly delved into it

because of Maciocia's claim that the herb has warming properties

(thanks to Dr. Nam as well, who has rightfully questioned this

claim).

 

So, thank you (and others) for getting me involved. I do not

regularly contribute to mailing lists because it takes an awful lot

of time. But I am enjoying this discussion, and think it is

important.

 

I have thought about this issue a bit more tonight. What, actually,

does it mean that the information in Maciocia's book is not

confirmed by the best sources we can find? In Phil's informative

mail about shinan, 'warming the kidney, warming the uterus' is

mentioned as a quality of shinanye (and, with a question mark, the

possible substitutes). Phil has sent this to two lists and a couple

of thousand practitioners will be able to read it. This has

implications for clinicians prescribing medicinals: Can't find

shinanye on the market? Well I'll look for another med that warms

the kidney etc. I find this disturbing and I think we should take

this as a warning about the reliability of sources. Of course,

Chinese sources are controversial about many things as well, but

here we have an example of simplification/ distortion of info due to

lack of research (if Maciocia's editorial team had checked the

sources, they should have rung a bell).

 

Of course, the medicinal in question is not an important one.

Apparently, (almost) nobody on this list had heard of it before.

People might think: Why the fuss?

 

Well, I think it is worth a fuss. English language books on CM are

not cheap (as opposed to Chinese language books). Maciocia and

others are earning great money by selling their books. So how do

they get away with things like this? Of course, I'll be prepared to

revise my evaluation of this specific issue if anyone comes up with

a reliable source that says shinanye has warming properties.

However, I'd like to tell you that this is one of the reasons I've

stopped buying Maciocia books (gynaecology has been the last I

bought, but unfortunately I don't have it in my library here - it's

in a box somewhere else -- I'd like to see the complete quotation

about shinanye). Other reasons for me to stop buying his books:

complete lack of consistent terminology; shameless (and completely

unscholarly) promotion of his herbal product line; repetition of

information -- to mention the most important.

 

If English language sources continue to use one or two words

(tonification, augmentation) for the variety of Chinese concepts

used all over the vast literature, what good will it do to the

understanding of this great medicine by the Western audience who

can't read Chinese? If English language sources continue to tell us

things that are not based on good research, how will our profession

be able to advance?

 

The issue of translation and terminology has been debated quite

intensely for over a decade now. The Paradigm site

(http://www.paradigm-pubs.com/resources/reference - in particular

the section on the Term Debate) has a great collection of writings

pertaining to it.

 

Greg, about the Shennong bencao jing quotation, I have to

apologize: It was Hugo who quoted the translation, not you (Greg).

Sorry, it was in the heat of the moment that I've made this slip.

 

Phil, I don't know what you think of this all, but you seem to be

keen on getting info to our community. Since you've posted to CHA

as well, I leave it up to you to decide whether the readers there

should be aware of the warming thing and the rest of this discussion.

 

Best wishes from the Low Countries,

 

Herman

 

>

> Thanks for the lengthy and interesting reply. It is much

appreciated. I think we agree far

> more than disagree. I absolutely concur that accurate and

consistant translation of terms

> is important and without it valuable nuance can at times be lost.

You also make important

> points about the nature of Shinanye, which I failed to make in my

original posts. It was

> purely for time-related reasons that I didn't translate more of

the ZYDCD entry, and I

> suppose my incomplete translation was more a dis-service and will

be more cautious in

> the future.

>

> Not that it's a big deal but to clarify, regarding your statement

below in referrence to me, I

> made no comment on this, I think it was someone else. I don't

believe I have any

> " translations " (do you mean into modern Chinese?) of Shen Nong Ben

Cao Jing, unless the

> SNBCJ in the " Zhong Hua Yi Dian " CD-Rom on my computer is a

translantion, which I am

> highly doubtful of.

>

> > Greg, the `translation' of Shennong bencao jing you have on your

> > desk has added things that are not in the source text (this was

not

> > clear from your post). Actually, the original entry is shinan

> > (without cao or ye). A Chinese commentator states that shinan

> > includes the leaves and the seeds. The statement that the seeds

are

> > good at dispelling wind comes from a commentary on the source

text,

> > and the warning against lust-inducing effects are from another

text

> > (I've seen it somewhere, forgot where).

>

> Thanks again for your valuable comments. Most appreciated!

>

> Best wishes,

>

> Greg

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Herman,

 

Once again, thanks for your thoughtful and interesting reply. You make me

realize the

importance of proper translation not just for books and other publications, but

for

postings to sites such as this. The audience on these sites is large, and our

posts do have

implications. I, for one, shall be more cautious in the future.

 

Best wishes from the Middle Kingdom :-)

 

Greg

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " Herman Oving "

<aowenherman wrote:

>

> Hi Greg,

>

> Please don't apologize for your incomplete notes about the ZYDCD

> entry. After the initial question about shinanye, I looked it up

> and decided not to spend too much time on it myself. You actually

> encouraged me to look into this and have facilitated an interesting

> discussion. Well, I also and most importantly delved into it

> because of Maciocia's claim that the herb has warming properties

> (thanks to Dr. Nam as well, who has rightfully questioned this

> claim).

>

> So, thank you (and others) for getting me involved. I do not

> regularly contribute to mailing lists because it takes an awful lot

> of time. But I am enjoying this discussion, and think it is

> important.

>

> I have thought about this issue a bit more tonight. What, actually,

> does it mean that the information in Maciocia's book is not

> confirmed by the best sources we can find? In Phil's informative

> mail about shinan, 'warming the kidney, warming the uterus' is

> mentioned as a quality of shinanye (and, with a question mark, the

> possible substitutes). Phil has sent this to two lists and a couple

> of thousand practitioners will be able to read it. This has

> implications for clinicians prescribing medicinals: Can't find

> shinanye on the market? Well I'll look for another med that warms

> the kidney etc. I find this disturbing and I think we should take

> this as a warning about the reliability of sources. Of course,

> Chinese sources are controversial about many things as well, but

> here we have an example of simplification/ distortion of info due to

> lack of research (if Maciocia's editorial team had checked the

> sources, they should have rung a bell).

>

> Of course, the medicinal in question is not an important one.

> Apparently, (almost) nobody on this list had heard of it before.

> People might think: Why the fuss?

>

> Well, I think it is worth a fuss. English language books on CM are

> not cheap (as opposed to Chinese language books). Maciocia and

> others are earning great money by selling their books. So how do

> they get away with things like this? Of course, I'll be prepared to

> revise my evaluation of this specific issue if anyone comes up with

> a reliable source that says shinanye has warming properties.

> However, I'd like to tell you that this is one of the reasons I've

> stopped buying Maciocia books (gynaecology has been the last I

> bought, but unfortunately I don't have it in my library here - it's

> in a box somewhere else -- I'd like to see the complete quotation

> about shinanye). Other reasons for me to stop buying his books:

> complete lack of consistent terminology; shameless (and completely

> unscholarly) promotion of his herbal product line; repetition of

> information -- to mention the most important.

>

> If English language sources continue to use one or two words

> (tonification, augmentation) for the variety of Chinese concepts

> used all over the vast literature, what good will it do to the

> understanding of this great medicine by the Western audience who

> can't read Chinese? If English language sources continue to tell us

> things that are not based on good research, how will our profession

> be able to advance?

>

> The issue of translation and terminology has been debated quite

> intensely for over a decade now. The Paradigm site

> (http://www.paradigm-pubs.com/resources/reference - in particular

> the section on the Term Debate) has a great collection of writings

> pertaining to it.

>

> Greg, about the Shennong bencao jing quotation, I have to

> apologize: It was Hugo who quoted the translation, not you (Greg).

> Sorry, it was in the heat of the moment that I've made this slip.

>

> Phil, I don't know what you think of this all, but you seem to be

> keen on getting info to our community. Since you've posted to CHA

> as well, I leave it up to you to decide whether the readers there

> should be aware of the warming thing and the rest of this discussion.

>

> Best wishes from the Low Countries,

>

> Herman

>

> >

> > Thanks for the lengthy and interesting reply. It is much

> appreciated. I think we agree far

> > more than disagree. I absolutely concur that accurate and

> consistant translation of terms

> > is important and without it valuable nuance can at times be lost.

> You also make important

> > points about the nature of Shinanye, which I failed to make in my

> original posts. It was

> > purely for time-related reasons that I didn't translate more of

> the ZYDCD entry, and I

> > suppose my incomplete translation was more a dis-service and will

> be more cautious in

> > the future.

> >

> > Not that it's a big deal but to clarify, regarding your statement

> below in referrence to me, I

> > made no comment on this, I think it was someone else. I don't

> believe I have any

> > " translations " (do you mean into modern Chinese?) of Shen Nong Ben

> Cao Jing, unless the

> > SNBCJ in the " Zhong Hua Yi Dian " CD-Rom on my computer is a

> translantion, which I am

> > highly doubtful of.

> >

> > > Greg, the `translation' of Shennong bencao jing you have on your

> > > desk has added things that are not in the source text (this was

> not

> > > clear from your post). Actually, the original entry is shinan

> > > (without cao or ye). A Chinese commentator states that shinan

> > > includes the leaves and the seeds. The statement that the seeds

> are

> > > good at dispelling wind comes from a commentary on the source

> text,

> > > and the warning against lust-inducing effects are from another

> text

> > > (I've seen it somewhere, forgot where).

> >

> > Thanks again for your valuable comments. Most appreciated!

> >

> > Best wishes,

> >

> > Greg

> >

>