Help with Herb Location or Substitution

[Guest guest]

Hello David, here are the latin and english names-

 

Shi Nan Ye

Photiniae Folium

Photinia Leaf

 

Regards,

 

Henry

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , David Toone

<david wrote:

>

> Hello,

>

> I was reading on the Maciocia Obstetrics and Gynecology text about

> infertility formulas and I came across the herb

> Shi Nan Ye

> . I am neither able to find reference material for this herb, nor am

> I able to locate it through the herbs companies. Assuming that it is

> not available in the US, I was wondering if someone could provide

> more information about this herb, so I can choose an available

> substitute.

>

> Many thanks

>

> David Toone MSOM, L.Ac.

> Hill County Health

> Acupuncture Center of Atlanta

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi David:

 

Shi Nan Ye is acrid, bitter and neutral in energy. It enters the Liver and

Kidneys, opens the luo, expels wind and boosts the Kidneys. It treats female

infertility with chilly low back and menstrual irregularity. It is uncommonly

used in clinical practice.

Maciocca is using it to tonify and warm the Kidney Yang and warm the Uterus.

 

Hugo

 

 

 

David Toone <david

Chinese Medicine

Sunday, 4 November, 2007 9:30:50 PM

Help with Herb Location or Substitution

 

Hello,

 

I was reading on the Maciocia Obstetrics and Gynecology text about

infertility formulas and I came across the herb

Shi Nan Ye

.. I am neither able to find reference material for this herb, nor am

I able to locate it through the herbs companies. Assuming that it is

not available in the US, I was wondering if someone could provide

more information about this herb, so I can choose an available

substitute.

 

Many thanks

 

David Toone MSOM, L.Ac.

Hill County Health

Acupuncture Center of Atlanta

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hugo,

If you can define more clearly, I would like to learn more about

She Nan Ye. Please do not feel offensive. I 've just want to educate

myself. This seems strange to me, probably I am strange myself. I

cannot see the She Nan Ye going into the kid-liv nor tonify and

warming them.

I see acrid, bitter enters the ( Lu-He ), neutral ( not warming ).

Lu-He I thought it is the upperjiao, pertainging to Qi ( chest or

Pectorial, Qi of receiving ), Ki-Liv is the lowerjiao ( The Qi of

discharging ). I do not see how a neutral herb can warm up the Ki or

uterus either. How an acrid and bitter can tonify an organ such as a

Liver and Kidney. Bitter clears heat and breaks down mass ( I think it

has sedative property ), acrid activates Qi ( moves qi and blood, it

may damages Qi and blood if no Qi or blood tonifying accompanied ). I

may have missed some points.

 

Nam Nguyen

 

 

Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro

<subincor wrote:

>

> Hi David:

>

> Shi Nan Ye is acrid, bitter and neutral in energy. It enters the

Liver and Kidneys, opens the luo, expels wind and boosts the Kidneys.

It treats female infertility with chilly low back and menstrual

irregularity. It is uncommonly used in clinical practice.

> Maciocca is using it to tonify and warm the Kidney Yang and warm

the Uterus.

>

> Hugo

>

>

>

> David Toone <david

> Chinese Medicine

> Sunday, 4 November, 2007 9:30:50 PM

> Help with Herb Location or Substitution

>

> Hello,

>

> I was reading on the Maciocia Obstetrics and Gynecology text about

> infertility formulas and I came across the herb

> Shi Nan Ye

> . I am neither able to find reference material for this herb, nor am

> I able to locate it through the herbs companies. Assuming that it is

> not available in the US, I was wondering if someone could provide

> more information about this herb, so I can choose an available

> substitute.

>

> Many thanks

>

> David Toone MSOM, L.Ac.

> Hill County Health

> Acupuncture Center of Atlanta

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi David,

 

Zhong Yao Da Ci Dian lists this herb, and says basically what Hugo

wrote, although it has more info. My rough translation of part of this

entry:

 

" spicy, bitter, neutral. Enters liver and kidney. Expells wind,

" through " the collaterals(tong luo), boosts kidneys. Treats wind bi,

upper back and lumbar soreness and pain, kidney deficient foot

weakness, migraine headache. "

 

It also has info from other books:

 

" moistens kidney and tonifies liver, strengthens ming men fire "

" treats impotence, seminal emission, female lumbar cold and

infertility, irregular menstruation. "

Ben Cao Gang Mu: " ancient formulas used this herb to treat wind bi and

kidney weakness, for which it was considered a very important herb,

but nowadays nobody know how to use it.... "

 

I've never heard of this herb before you mentioned it, and have never

seen it used. If I had to think of a substitute I would first consider

Sang Ji Sheng, then maybe Xu Duan or Du Zhong, but I'm just guessing.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Best,

 

Greg

 

Chinese Medicine , David Toone

<david wrote:

>

> Hello,

>

> I was reading on the Maciocia Obstetrics and Gynecology text about

> infertility formulas and I came across the herb

> Shi Nan Ye

> . I am neither able to find reference material for this herb, nor am

> I able to locate it through the herbs companies. Assuming that it is

> not available in the US, I was wondering if someone could provide

> more information about this herb, so I can choose an available

> substitute.

>

> Many thanks

>

> David Toone MSOM, L.Ac.

> Hill County Health

> Acupuncture Center of Atlanta

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

where in the gyn book is the herb used? i'ld like to make a notation about

the herb qualities in my copy?

 

k

 

 

On 11/5/07, David Toone <david wrote:

>

> Hello,

>

> I was reading on the Maciocia Obstetrics and Gynecology text about

> infertility formulas and I came across the herb

> Shi Nan Ye

> . I am neither able to find reference material for this herb, nor am

> I able to locate it through the herbs companies. Assuming that it is

> not available in the US, I was wondering if someone could provide

> more information about this herb, so I can choose an available

> substitute.

>

> Many thanks

>

> David Toone MSOM, L.Ac.

> Hill County Health

> Acupuncture Center of Atlanta

>

>

[Guest guest]

hugo:

 

where did you get your info from? (not doubting it, just curious about

sources for herb info).

 

k

 

 

On 11/5/07, Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote:

>

> Hi David:

>

> Shi Nan Ye is acrid, bitter and neutral in energy. It enters the Liver and

> Kidneys, opens the luo, expels wind and boosts the Kidneys. It treats female

> infertility with chilly low back and menstrual irregularity. It is

> uncommonly used in clinical practice.

> Maciocca is using it to tonify and warm the Kidney Yang and warm the

> Uterus.

>

> Hugo

>

>

> David Toone <david <david%40toone.org>>

> To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> Sunday, 4 November, 2007 9:30:50 PM

> Help with Herb Location or Substitution

>

> Hello,

>

> I was reading on the Maciocia Obstetrics and Gynecology text about

> infertility formulas and I came across the herb

> Shi Nan Ye

> . I am neither able to find reference material for this herb, nor am

> I able to locate it through the herbs companies. Assuming that it is

> not available in the US, I was wondering if someone could provide

> more information about this herb, so I can choose an available

> substitute.

>

> Many thanks

>

> David Toone MSOM, L.Ac.

> Hill County Health

> Acupuncture Center of Atlanta

>

>

[Guest guest]

hugo:

 

a couple of questions:

 

you use the TP boost kid. could bu kid also be used, or do you mean

something more specific when you say boost?

 

you say this herb is not commonly used in clinic. any guess as to why

G chooses to use it?

 

k

 

 

On 11/5/07, Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote:

>

> Hi David:

>

> Shi Nan Ye is acrid, bitter and neutral in energy. It enters the Liver and

> Kidneys, opens the luo, expels wind and boosts the Kidneys. It treats female

> infertility with chilly low back and menstrual irregularity. It is

> uncommonly used in clinical practice.

> Maciocca is using it to tonify and warm the Kidney Yang and warm the

> Uterus.

>

> Hugo

>

>

> David Toone <david <david%40toone.org>>

> To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> Sunday, 4 November, 2007 9:30:50 PM

> Help with Herb Location or Substitution

>

> Hello,

>

> I was reading on the Maciocia Obstetrics and Gynecology text about

> infertility formulas and I came across the herb

> Shi Nan Ye

> . I am neither able to find reference material for this herb, nor am

> I able to locate it through the herbs companies. Assuming that it is

> not available in the US, I was wondering if someone could provide

> more information about this herb, so I can choose an available

> substitute.

>

> Many thanks

>

> David Toone MSOM, L.Ac.

> Hill County Health

> Acupuncture Center of Atlanta

>

>

[Guest guest]

Judging from the Macciocia entry, I'd say it comes from Zhong Yao Da Cidian, at

least in

part. ZYDCD uses the term " yi4 shen4 " . " Yi " can be translated as tonify, boost,

supplement,

etc, and is roughly the equivalent of " bu3 " , the difference being not that

significant, more

a matter of linguistics than anything else.

 

Greg

 

Chinese Medicine , " "

wrote:

>

> hugo:

>

> a couple of questions:

>

> you use the TP boost kid. could bu kid also be used, or do you mean

> something more specific when you say boost?

>

> you say this herb is not commonly used in clinic. any guess as to why

> G chooses to use it?

>

> k

>

>

> On 11/5/07, Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote:

> >

> > Hi David:

> >

> > Shi Nan Ye is acrid, bitter and neutral in energy. It enters the Liver and

> > Kidneys, opens the luo, expels wind and boosts the Kidneys. It treats female

> > infertility with chilly low back and menstrual irregularity. It is

> > uncommonly used in clinical practice.

> > Maciocca is using it to tonify and warm the Kidney Yang and warm the

> > Uterus.

> >

> > Hugo

> >

> >

> > David Toone <david <david%40toone.org>>

> > To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%

40>

> > Sunday, 4 November, 2007 9:30:50 PM

> > Help with Herb Location or Substitution

> >

> > Hello,

> >

> > I was reading on the Maciocia Obstetrics and Gynecology text about

> > infertility formulas and I came across the herb

> > Shi Nan Ye

> > . I am neither able to find reference material for this herb, nor am

> > I able to locate it through the herbs companies. Assuming that it is

> > not available in the US, I was wondering if someone could provide

> > more information about this herb, so I can choose an available

> > substitute.

> >

> > Many thanks

> >

> > David Toone MSOM, L.Ac.

> > Hill County Health

> > Acupuncture Center of Atlanta

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

thnks.

 

k

 

 

On 11/6/07, Greg A. Livingston <drlivingston wrote:

>

> Judging from the Macciocia entry, I'd say it comes from Zhong Yao Da

> Cidian, at least in

> part. ZYDCD uses the term " yi4 shen4 " . " Yi " can be translated as tonify,

> boost, supplement,

> etc, and is roughly the equivalent of " bu3 " , the difference being not that

> significant, more

> a matter of linguistics than anything else.

>

> Greg

>

> --- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>,

> " "

> wrote:

> >

> > hugo:

> >

> > a couple of questions:

> >

> > you use the TP boost kid. could bu kid also be used, or do you mean

> > something more specific when you say boost?

> >

> > you say this herb is not commonly used in clinic. any guess as to why

> > G chooses to use it?

> >

> > k

> >

> >

> > On 11/5/07, Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote:

> > >

> > > Hi David:

> > >

> > > Shi Nan Ye is acrid, bitter and neutral in energy. It enters the Liver

> and

> > > Kidneys, opens the luo, expels wind and boosts the Kidneys. It treats

> female

> > > infertility with chilly low back and menstrual irregularity. It is

> > > uncommonly used in clinical practice.

> > > Maciocca is using it to tonify and warm the Kidney Yang and warm the

> > > Uterus.

> > >

> > > Hugo

> > >

> > >

> > > David Toone <david <david%40toone.org>>

> > > To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> <Chinese Medicine%

> 40>

> > > Sunday, 4 November, 2007 9:30:50 PM

> > > Help with Herb Location or Substitution

> > >

> > > Hello,

> > >

> > > I was reading on the Maciocia Obstetrics and Gynecology text about

> > > infertility formulas and I came across the herb

> > > Shi Nan Ye

> > > . I am neither able to find reference material for this herb, nor am

> > > I able to locate it through the herbs companies. Assuming that it is

> > > not available in the US, I was wondering if someone could provide

> > > more information about this herb, so I can choose an available

> > > substitute.

> > >

> > > Many thanks

> > >

> > > David Toone MSOM, L.Ac.

> > > Hill County Health

> > > Acupuncture Center of Atlanta

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , " Greg A.

Livingston " <drlivingston wrote:

 

" Yi " can be translated as tonify, boost, supplement,

> etc, and is roughly the equivalent of " bu3 " , the difference being

not that significant, more

> a matter of linguistics than anything else.

 

Sorry, I find this a curious statement. If we follow this

reasoning, we'll end up with a highly simplified rendering of

Chinese medical texts. There have been and still are authors who

use ''tonify'' for several different characters, but I think it this

a disservice to the CM community in the West. The different

characters more often than not convey nuance differences that can be

quite useful for practitioners.

In this case: the use of yi4 instead of bu3 is quite telling, since

the ZYDCD also gives information about authors who strongly doubt

the supplementing action of shinanye. In another post it was said

that Maciocia writes that he uses this herb to warm the kidney and

the uterus. Dr Nam rightfully questioned that. There is no mention

of ''warm'' whatsoever in the ZYDCD, and errors like this lead to

people using the wrong substitutes (someone suggested kidney

supplementing meds of the warming category).

The use of shinanye in infertility etc. is only documented in modern

texts.

 

Herman

 

 

 

>

> Judging from the Macciocia entry, I'd say it comes from Zhong Yao

Da Cidian, at least in

> part. ZYDCD uses the term " yi4 shen4 " . " Yi " can be translated as

tonify, boost, supplement,

> etc, and is roughly the equivalent of " bu3 " , the difference being

not that significant, more

> a matter of linguistics than anything else.

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Herman,

 

I agree that proper translation is important, and perhaps I spoke rashly. You

say the

difference in this case is quite telling, but I fail to see much difference

between " yi4shen4 "

and " bu3shen4 " in this case. Am I'm missing something?

 

Thanks!

 

Greg

 

Chinese Medicine , " Herman Oving "

<aowenherman wrote:

>

> Chinese Medicine , " Greg A.

> Livingston " <drlivingston@> wrote:

>

> " Yi " can be translated as tonify, boost, supplement,

> > etc, and is roughly the equivalent of " bu3 " , the difference being

> not that significant, more

> > a matter of linguistics than anything else.

>

> Sorry, I find this a curious statement. If we follow this

> reasoning, we'll end up with a highly simplified rendering of

> Chinese medical texts. There have been and still are authors who

> use ''tonify'' for several different characters, but I think it this

> a disservice to the CM community in the West. The different

> characters more often than not convey nuance differences that can be

> quite useful for practitioners.

> In this case: the use of yi4 instead of bu3 is quite telling, since

> the ZYDCD also gives information about authors who strongly doubt

> the supplementing action of shinanye. In another post it was said

> that Maciocia writes that he uses this herb to warm the kidney and

> the uterus. Dr Nam rightfully questioned that. There is no mention

> of ''warm'' whatsoever in the ZYDCD, and errors like this lead to

> people using the wrong substitutes (someone suggested kidney

> supplementing meds of the warming category).

> The use of shinanye in infertility etc. is only documented in modern

> texts.

>

> Herman

>

>

>

> >

> > Judging from the Macciocia entry, I'd say it comes from Zhong Yao

> Da Cidian, at least in

> > part. ZYDCD uses the term " yi4 shen4 " . " Yi " can be translated as

> tonify, boost, supplement,

> > etc, and is roughly the equivalent of " bu3 " , the difference being

> not that significant, more

> > a matter of linguistics than anything else.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Herman,

 

I was looking again at Shinanye in ZYDCD, and you are quite right that there is

debate

about the kidney supplementing nature of this herb. However, in the various

entries the

authors use numerous different characters to denote

supplementation/tonification/

augmentation/nourishment/etc of kidneys(or whatever one would choose to call it

in

English), such as (and I would write in Chinese here for clarity but it never

seems to come

through on this website), yang2, bu3, yi4, tian1, qiang2.

 

While I would agree in formal translation these different characters ought to be

translated

accurately and consistently in order to convey nuances that may exist, I still

have a hard

time seeing that there is a whole lot of difference, but that may be a

shortcoming of my

own which needs correcting.

 

As a respected linguist I would love to hear your thoughts and appreciate your

comment

on this. Thanks again!

 

Greg

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " Greg A. Livingston "

<drlivingston wrote:

>

> Hi Herman,

>

> I agree that proper translation is important, and perhaps I spoke rashly. You

say the

> difference in this case is quite telling, but I fail to see much difference

between

" yi4shen4 "

> and " bu3shen4 " in this case. Am I'm missing something?

>

> Thanks!

>

> Greg

>

> Chinese Medicine , " Herman Oving "

> <aowenherman@> wrote:

> >

> > Chinese Medicine , " Greg A.

> > Livingston " <drlivingston@> wrote:

> >

> > " Yi " can be translated as tonify, boost, supplement,

> > > etc, and is roughly the equivalent of " bu3 " , the difference being

> > not that significant, more

> > > a matter of linguistics than anything else.

> >

> > Sorry, I find this a curious statement. If we follow this

> > reasoning, we'll end up with a highly simplified rendering of

> > Chinese medical texts. There have been and still are authors who

> > use ''tonify'' for several different characters, but I think it this

> > a disservice to the CM community in the West. The different

> > characters more often than not convey nuance differences that can be

> > quite useful for practitioners.

> > In this case: the use of yi4 instead of bu3 is quite telling, since

> > the ZYDCD also gives information about authors who strongly doubt

> > the supplementing action of shinanye. In another post it was said

> > that Maciocia writes that he uses this herb to warm the kidney and

> > the uterus. Dr Nam rightfully questioned that. There is no mention

> > of ''warm'' whatsoever in the ZYDCD, and errors like this lead to

> > people using the wrong substitutes (someone suggested kidney

> > supplementing meds of the warming category).

> > The use of shinanye in infertility etc. is only documented in modern

> > texts.

> >

> > Herman

> >

> >

> >

> > >

> > > Judging from the Macciocia entry, I'd say it comes from Zhong Yao

> > Da Cidian, at least in

> > > part. ZYDCD uses the term " yi4 shen4 " . " Yi " can be translated as

> > tonify, boost, supplement,

> > > etc, and is roughly the equivalent of " bu3 " , the difference being

> > not that significant, more

> > > a matter of linguistics than anything else.

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hello Dr. Nguyen,

 

There is a line in the Nei Jing- " xin1 yi3 run4 zhi1 " which is

interpreted to mean that (some) acrid herbs can also moisten (run4)

and nourish.

 

" xin1 run4 " is not considered representative of all acrid herbs, but

perhaps this is why shi nan (ye) is described as acrid in the original

Shen Nong Ben Cao Jing.

 

Regards,

 

Henry

 

Chinese Medicine , " dr_namnguyen58 "

<dr_namnguyen58 wrote:

>

> Hugo,

> If you can define more clearly, I would like to learn more about

> She Nan Ye. Please do not feel offensive. I 've just want to educate

> myself. This seems strange to me, probably I am strange myself. I

> cannot see the She Nan Ye going into the kid-liv nor tonify and

> warming them.

> I see acrid, bitter enters the ( Lu-He ), neutral ( not warming ).

> Lu-He I thought it is the upperjiao, pertainging to Qi ( chest or

> Pectorial, Qi of receiving ), Ki-Liv is the lowerjiao ( The Qi of

> discharging ). I do not see how a neutral herb can warm up the Ki or

> uterus either. How an acrid and bitter can tonify an organ such as a

> Liver and Kidney. Bitter clears heat and breaks down mass ( I think it

> has sedative property ), acrid activates Qi ( moves qi and blood, it

> may damages Qi and blood if no Qi or blood tonifying accompanied ). I

> may have missed some points.

>

> Nam Nguyen

>

>

> Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro

> <subincor@> wrote:

> >

> > Hi David:

> >

> > Shi Nan Ye is acrid, bitter and neutral in energy. It enters the

> Liver and Kidneys, opens the luo, expels wind and boosts the Kidneys.

> It treats female infertility with chilly low back and menstrual

> irregularity. It is uncommonly used in clinical practice.

> > Maciocca is using it to tonify and warm the Kidney Yang and warm

> the Uterus.

> >

> > Hugo

> >

> >

> >

> > David Toone <david@>

> > Chinese Medicine

> > Sunday, 4 November, 2007 9:30:50 PM

> > Help with Herb Location or Substitution

> >

> > Hello,

> >

> > I was reading on the Maciocia Obstetrics and Gynecology text about

> > infertility formulas and I came across the herb

> > Shi Nan Ye

> > . I am neither able to find reference material for this herb, nor am

> > I able to locate it through the herbs companies. Assuming that it is

> > not available in the US, I was wondering if someone could provide

> > more information about this herb, so I can choose an available

> > substitute.

> >

> > Many thanks

> >

> > David Toone MSOM, L.Ac.

> > Hill County Health

> > Acupuncture Center of Atlanta

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Re: _yi4 , _bu3_ , etc. The following online definitions are

interesting to compare. (from MDBG.net, also see

tigernt.com/cedict.shtml for easier whole field limited search if you

don't have the character).

 

Note that _ bu3 _ is the only term that distinctly refers to repair

(of damage) or filling a void that presumably had substance at some

prior time.

 

The other terms could perhaps all fit improving a relatively healthy

status. If modern Zhongwen usage / connotations have changed anything

like English over the centuries, then who could possibly know for sure.

 

bu3 = to repair / to patch / to mend / to make up for / to fill (a

vacancy) / to supplement

 

yi4 = benefit / increase

 

tian1 = to add / to increase / to replenish

 

jia1 qiang2 = to reinforce / to strengthen / to increase

 

yang2 = to raise / to hoist / the action of tossing or winnowing /

scattering (in the wind) / to flutter / to propagate

 

Joe Reid, chu1xue2zhe3

jreidomd.blogspot.com

[Guest guest]

Hey Herman, nice to hear from you here on the list.

So to throw the ball back in your court, do you feel that Macioca doesn't do a

good job of translating, or perhaps is using this herb in a modern sense, and

not going by the original texts?

I sourced Maccioca's gyn book because the original poster had been referencing

it. M. is explicit in stating that it warms the kidneys.

A copy of a Shen Nong translation I have describes Shi Nan Cao (it is listed as

being " Folium " though I do not find " ye " in the english text) as being acrid,

boosting the kidney qi, debilitated yin, and that its _seed_ expels wind. The

text states that at some points women were not supposed to take it because " it

might make them lust after men " . The text also mentions that in modern times

this herb is used in cases of miscarriage.

Could you comment further on yi and bu and perhaps this herb as well?

This topic once again opens the issue of who to use as sources, as well as the

question of the dependability of english texts, since this issue of translation

still has not been resolved in many camps.

 

Thanks,

Hugo

 

 

 

Herman Oving <aowenherman

Chinese Medicine

Wednesday, 7 November, 2007 9:08:18 AM

Re: Help with Herb Location or Substitution

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , " Greg A.

 

Livingston " <drlivingston@ ...> wrote:

 

 

 

" Yi " can be translated as tonify, boost, supplement,

 

> etc, and is roughly the equivalent of " bu3 " , the difference being

 

not that significant, more

 

> a matter of linguistics than anything else.

 

 

 

Sorry, I find this a curious statement. If we follow this

 

reasoning, we'll end up with a highly simplified rendering of

 

Chinese medical texts. There have been and still are authors who

 

use ''tonify'' for several different characters, but I think it this

 

a disservice to the CM community in the West. The different

 

characters more often than not convey nuance differences that can be

 

quite useful for practitioners.

 

In this case: the use of yi4 instead of bu3 is quite telling, since

 

the ZYDCD also gives information about authors who strongly doubt

 

the supplementing action of shinanye. In another post it was said

 

that Maciocia writes that he uses this herb to warm the kidney and

 

the uterus. Dr Nam rightfully questioned that. There is no mention

 

of ''warm'' whatsoever in the ZYDCD, and errors like this lead to

 

people using the wrong substitutes (someone suggested kidney

 

supplementing meds of the warming category).

 

The use of shinanye in infertility etc. is only documented in modern

 

texts.

 

 

 

Herman

 

 

 

>

 

> Judging from the Macciocia entry, I'd say it comes from Zhong Yao

 

Da Cidian, at least in

 

> part. ZYDCD uses the term " yi4 shen4 " . " Yi " can be translated as

 

tonify, boost, supplement,

 

> etc, and is roughly the equivalent of " bu3 " , the difference being

 

not that significant, more

 

> a matter of linguistics than anything else.

 

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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_________

Answers - Got a question? Someone out there knows the answer. Try it

now.

http://uk.answers./

 

 

[Guest guest]

Can it be alluding to acrid herbs influencing lungs or really metal

and metal nourishes kidneys, possibly using a alteration of the

common way herbs are used. These alternative applications are also

found in Chatper 22 of the Su Wen, its worth reading.

 

regards,

david

 

Chinese Medicine , " henry_buchtel "

<henry.buchtel wrote:

>

> Hello Dr. Nguyen,

>

> There is a line in the Nei Jing- " xin1 yi3 run4 zhi1 " which is

> interpreted to mean that (some) acrid herbs can also moisten (run4)

> and nourish.

>

> " xin1 run4 " is not considered representative of all acrid herbs,

but

> perhaps this is why shi nan (ye) is described as acrid in the

original

> Shen Nong Ben Cao Jing.

>

> Regards,

>

> Henry

>

> --- In

Chinese Medicine , " dr_namnguyen58 "

> <dr_namnguyen58@> wrote:

> >

> > Hugo,

> > If you can define more clearly, I would like to learn more

about

> > She Nan Ye. Please do not feel offensive. I 've just want to

educate

> > myself. This seems strange to me, probably I am strange myself.

I

> > cannot see the She Nan Ye going into the kid-liv nor tonify and

> > warming them.

> > I see acrid, bitter enters the ( Lu-He ), neutral ( not

warming ).

> > Lu-He I thought it is the upperjiao, pertainging to Qi ( chest or

> > Pectorial, Qi of receiving ), Ki-Liv is the lowerjiao ( The Qi of

> > discharging ). I do not see how a neutral herb can warm up the

Ki or

> > uterus either. How an acrid and bitter can tonify an organ such

as a

> > Liver and Kidney. Bitter clears heat and breaks down mass ( I

think it

> > has sedative property ), acrid activates Qi ( moves qi and

blood, it

> > may damages Qi and blood if no Qi or blood tonifying

accompanied ). I

> > may have missed some points.

> >

> > Nam Nguyen

> >

> >

> > Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro

> > <subincor@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Hi David:

> > >

> > > Shi Nan Ye is acrid, bitter and neutral in energy. It enters

the

> > Liver and Kidneys, opens the luo, expels wind and boosts the

Kidneys.

> > It treats female infertility with chilly low back and menstrual

> > irregularity. It is uncommonly used in clinical practice.

> > > Maciocca is using it to tonify and warm the Kidney Yang and

warm

> > the Uterus.

> > >

> > > Hugo

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > David Toone <david@>

> > > Chinese Medicine

> > > Sunday, 4 November, 2007 9:30:50 PM

> > > Help with Herb Location or Substitution

> > >

> > > Hello,

> > >

> > > I was reading on the Maciocia Obstetrics and Gynecology text

about

> > > infertility formulas and I came across the herb

> > > Shi Nan Ye

> > > . I am neither able to find reference material for this herb,

nor am

> > > I able to locate it through the herbs companies. Assuming that

it is

> > > not available in the US, I was wondering if someone could

provide

> > > more information about this herb, so I can choose an available

> > > substitute.

> > >

> > > Many thanks

> > >

> > > David Toone MSOM, L.Ac.

> > > Hill County Health

> > > Acupuncture Center of Atlanta

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Hi Greg, Hugo, Phil, Nam Nguyen, Henry and others interested in this

thread about shi2nan2ye4,

 

Yes, there are many different characters used in the various sources

that write about the beneficial effect of shinanye on the liver and

kidney and I agree that there is considerable overlap between terms

such as nourish yang3, supplement bu3, boost yi4 etc. Although some

authors use these terms meaning the same thing, I still think it is

important to use different terms in translation, if only to convey

the original text truthfully. Also, I am convinced that many

authors use these different terms on purpose. In the case of

shinanye, I think the choice of boost (yi4) in the ZYDCD is

deliberate. The Shennong bencao jing says: nourishes (yang3) kidney

qi4 and I believe that to be quite different from `warm kidney

yang2'. There may not be `a whole lot of difference'

between `supplement kidney' and `boost kidney' but when I

read `boost' I tend to think of qi4 first (but I agree this can be

doubtful).

 

The main point is that I haven't seen any source stating that the

herb is warming. Maybe Maciocia had one of his translators dig up

some article in which this claim was made, but I find it difficult

to understand why that would be a reason to present it to the

English reading audience. All I know about Maciocia's working

method is that he works with the cheapest translators he can find

(at least, that was the case several years ago, right after the

gynaecology book came out). And well, it is well known that

Maciocia does not adhere to terminological principles.

 

In fact, two of the sources quoted in the ZYDCD mention that

shinanye eliminates heat (chu2 re4). All sources seem to agree that

it's nature is balanced (ping2). Furthermore, as Greg notices, the

Shennong bencao jing states that the herb governs `internal damage

yin1 debilitation (nei4shang1 yin1 shuai1)'. Chinese commentators

explain yin1shuai1 here as `kidney yin1 vacuity (xu1). So, even if

there is a source somewhere claiming that it `warms the kidney and

the uterus' I have a hard time accepting this as consensus. It may

even be that the herb is nowadays used in treating impotence,

infertility etc. in patients for whom warming herbs are

contraindicated!

 

Greg, the `translation' of Shennong bencao jing you have on your

desk has added things that are not in the source text (this was not

clear from your post). Actually, the original entry is shinan

(without cao or ye). A Chinese commentator states that shinan

includes the leaves and the seeds. The statement that the seeds are

good at dispelling wind comes from a commentary on the source text,

and the warning against lust-inducing effects are from another text

(I've seen it somewhere, forgot where).

 

Nam, you wrote something about channel entry of shinanye and indeed,

one source says it enters the lung and the kidney instead of liver

and kidney. But well, the whole channel entry issue is highly

controversial as well. Thanks for your alert about shinanye, it

woke me up.

 

Phil, I always appreciate the info you present to this list and

CHA. I've seen your contribution about shinan (cross-posted to

CHA), and would like to ask you the following:

 

You wrote:

 

<<Summary of data from recent discussion on List, plus

tinyurl.com/2utzoz & other Chinese sites: >>

 

[…] not often used; if unavailable, ?use Sangjisheng / Xuduan /

Duzhong as substitutes;

 

and:

 

ACTIONS: […] Warm KI Yang; Warm Uterus;

 

Did you actually find more sources that claim these things or did

you add this `from recent discussion on List' only?

 

I am a bit confused by:

 

<<Shinanteng

Photiniae serrulatae / sinensis Caulis; ?? Rml Wallichii /

Puberulii; [two different Hbs w same name]

Chinese Photinia Fm / Stem; Wallichii / Puberulii Twig>>

 

Chen & Chen list shinanteng (same characters shi2 -stone- and nan2 -

south-) as ramulus piper, botanical names: Piper wallichii etc.

 

 

I've copied Greg's and Hugo's mails below.

 

Thanks for the discussion and future replies,

 

Herman

 

 

Greg wrote:

 

 

Hi Herman,

 

I was looking again at Shinanye in ZYDCD, and you are quite right

that there is debate

about the kidney supplementing nature of this herb. However, in the

various entries the

authors use numerous different characters to denote supplementation/

tonification/

augmentation/ nourishment/ etc of kidneys(or whatever one would

choose to call it in

English), such as (and I would write in Chinese here for clarity but

it never seems to come

through on this website), yang2, bu3, yi4, tian1, qiang2.

 

While I would agree in formal translation these different characters

ought to be translated

accurately and consistently in order to convey nuances that may

exist, I still have a hard

time seeing that there is a whole lot of difference, but that may be

a shortcoming of my

own which needs correcting.

 

As a respected linguist I would love to hear your thoughts and

appreciate your comment

on this. Thanks again!

 

 

Hugo wrote:

 

 

Hey Herman, nice to hear from you here on the list.

So to throw the ball back in your court, do you feel that Macioca

doesn't do a

good job of translating, or perhaps is using this herb in a modern

sense, and

not going by the original texts?

I sourced Maccioca's gyn book because the original poster had been

referencing

it. M. is explicit in stating that it warms the kidneys.

A copy of a Shen Nong translation I have describes Shi Nan Cao (it

is listed as

being " Folium " though I do not find " ye " in the english text) as

being acrid,

boosting the kidney qi, debilitated yin, and that its _seed_ expels

wind. The

text states that at some points women were not supposed to take it

because " it

might make them lust after men " . The text also mentions that in

modern times

this herb is used in cases of miscarriage.

Could you comment further on yi and bu and perhaps this herb as well?

This topic once again opens the issue of who to use as sources, as

well as the

question of the dependability of english texts, since this issue of

translation

still has not been resolved in many camps.

 

Thanks,

Hugo

[Guest guest]

David,

Well-thought for metal ( Lu ) nourishing the Water ( Ki ).

Acrid and pungent are moving, pushing, propelling properties. These

properties are helping Qi to move ( any Qi for moving, not just the

Kid Qi ). If we are analyzing as nourishing, I think I am still

missing some points.

Nourishing Ki can be seen as nourishing its Qi, blood, yin, fluid,

essence, heat, cold. Which one are we talking about?

Bitter is dry, enters the Heart ( Fire element ), breakdown masses,

dry damp, dry body fluids and essence... This element can

counter-attack the Kid ( water element ), drying up its essence,

blood, jing and yin.

The two combination of bitter and acrid is very strong for damaging

Qi, fluids and essence of the whole body, not just on Kid.

I am sorry to see this differently as what some of us have found in

a literature. I do not know nor heard about his herb before this post.

But I base it on our TCM, Hugo, provided...... We, TCM , have learned

herbs very well. Herbs have 4 Yang properties ( heating, warming,

freezing and cooling ), 5 Yin properties of flavors ( sour, bitter,

sweet, pungent, and salty ). They are keys in using in combination and

are sometimes classified according to their tastes ( not real tastes

but assuming ). We should not only memorize them what channels they

enter or what they do, but we should also understand their Flavors and

yin-yang properties.

Besides, there is no warming ( neutral ). I do not know how an herb

can warming the Kidney or any organ and in itself has no warming

property. I do not think if such an herb can warm itself before it can

warm our bodies.

I have seen many other well-known herbs had not been using

properly. This had caused so many adverse effect.

Is that Shi Nan Ye a reference for us to use alone for tonifying

Kid or Liv ??????????????? I do not think so ! Same thing with other

well-known herbs. But it may be use in combination with other warming

and sweet herbs to tonify Kid or Sto and strong Yin tonic to cool and

slow down its activities. I think wiht bitter and acrid is a strong

descending combination, good for discharge in lower orifices such as

in ( constipation or dysuria, impotence ... not with hemorrhoids )...

 

I always asked my self about a basic formular Si JUn Zi Tang .

Si Jun Zi Tang ( Ren Shen, Bai Zhu, Gan Cao, Fu Ling ): Qi tonic.

If I want to change a little bit, what is the outcome ???

Ren shen, Xi Xin, Gan Cao, Fu Ling ???

Ren shen, Gan Jiang, Gan Cao, Fu Ling ???

Ren shen, Shan Yao, Gan Cao, Fu Ling ???

or Dang shen, Bai Zhu, Gan Cao, Fu Ling ??? What is the outcome?

 

Has anybody tried to formulate or modify some fomulas in their minds

and imagined what the changes would be? worse, worst or best

result..? And at the same time ask themselves why ??? THis is how I

learn , sound familiar??? I am learning just as a little kid is

learning, but very interesting.......

 

Thanks to all,

 

Nam Nguyen

 

 

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine ,

" flyingstarsfengshui " <flyingstarsfengshui wrote:

>

>

> Can it be alluding to acrid herbs influencing lungs or really metal

> and metal nourishes kidneys, possibly using a alteration of the

> common way herbs are used. These alternative applications are also

> found in Chatper 22 of the Su Wen, its worth reading.

>

> regards,

> david

>

> Chinese Medicine , " henry_buchtel "

> <henry.buchtel@> wrote:

> >

> > Hello Dr. Nguyen,

> >

> > There is a line in the Nei Jing- " xin1 yi3 run4 zhi1 " which is

> > interpreted to mean that (some) acrid herbs can also moisten (run4)

> > and nourish.

> >

> > " xin1 run4 " is not considered representative of all acrid herbs,

> but

> > perhaps this is why shi nan (ye) is described as acrid in the

> original

> > Shen Nong Ben Cao Jing.

> >

> > Regards,

> >

> > Henry

> >

> > --- In

> Chinese Medicine , " dr_namnguyen58 "

> > <dr_namnguyen58@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Hugo,

> > > If you can define more clearly, I would like to learn more

> about

> > > She Nan Ye. Please do not feel offensive. I 've just want to

> educate

> > > myself. This seems strange to me, probably I am strange myself.

> I

> > > cannot see the She Nan Ye going into the kid-liv nor tonify and

> > > warming them.

> > > I see acrid, bitter enters the ( Lu-He ), neutral ( not

> warming ).

> > > Lu-He I thought it is the upperjiao, pertainging to Qi ( chest or

> > > Pectorial, Qi of receiving ), Ki-Liv is the lowerjiao ( The Qi of

> > > discharging ). I do not see how a neutral herb can warm up the

> Ki or

> > > uterus either. How an acrid and bitter can tonify an organ such

> as a

> > > Liver and Kidney. Bitter clears heat and breaks down mass ( I

> think it

> > > has sedative property ), acrid activates Qi ( moves qi and

> blood, it

> > > may damages Qi and blood if no Qi or blood tonifying

> accompanied ). I

> > > may have missed some points.

> > >

> > > Nam Nguyen

> > >

> > >

> > > Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro

> > > <subincor@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Hi David:

> > > >

> > > > Shi Nan Ye is acrid, bitter and neutral in energy. It enters

> the

> > > Liver and Kidneys, opens the luo, expels wind and boosts the

> Kidneys.

> > > It treats female infertility with chilly low back and menstrual

> > > irregularity. It is uncommonly used in clinical practice.

> > > > Maciocca is using it to tonify and warm the Kidney Yang and

> warm

> > > the Uterus.

> > > >

> > > > Hugo

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > David Toone <david@>

> > > > Chinese Medicine

> > > > Sunday, 4 November, 2007 9:30:50 PM

> > > > Help with Herb Location or Substitution

> > > >

> > > > Hello,

> > > >

> > > > I was reading on the Maciocia Obstetrics and Gynecology text

> about

> > > > infertility formulas and I came across the herb

> > > > Shi Nan Ye

> > > > . I am neither able to find reference material for this herb,

> nor am

> > > > I able to locate it through the herbs companies. Assuming that

> it is

> > > > not available in the US, I was wondering if someone could

> provide

> > > > more information about this herb, so I can choose an available

> > > > substitute.

> > > >

> > > > Many thanks

> > > >

> > > > David Toone MSOM, L.Ac.

> > > > Hill County Health

> > > > Acupuncture Center of Atlanta

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

Hi Joe,

 

Nice contribution!

 

> yang2 = to raise / to hoist / the action of tossing or winnowing /

> scattering (in the wind) / to flutter / to propagate

 

I think Greg misspelled yang2. It is yang3, to nourish.

 

Herman

 

Chinese Medicine , " jreidomd "

<jreidomd wrote:

>

> Re: _yi4 , _bu3_ , etc. The following online definitions are

> interesting to compare. (from MDBG.net, also see

> tigernt.com/cedict.shtml for easier whole field limited search if

you

> don't have the character).

>

> Note that _ bu3 _ is the only term that distinctly refers to repair

> (of damage) or filling a void that presumably had substance at some

> prior time.

>

> The other terms could perhaps all fit improving a relatively

healthy

> status. If modern Zhongwen usage / connotations have changed

anything

> like English over the centuries, then who could possibly know for

sure.

>

> bu3 = to repair / to patch / to mend / to make up for / to fill (a

> vacancy) / to supplement

>

> yi4 = benefit / increase

>

> tian1 = to add / to increase / to replenish

>

> jia1 qiang2 = to reinforce / to strengthen / to increase

>

> yang2 = to raise / to hoist / the action of tossing or winnowing /

> scattering (in the wind) / to flutter / to propagate

>

> Joe Reid, chu1xue2zhe3

> jreidomd.blogspot.com

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Dr.

 

Su Wen, Chapter 22:

 

" Diseases of the Kidneys correspond to a black and dark face. One

should eat pungent foods to help it disperse. "

 

Also bitter foods are heart and part of Shao Yin. So both tastes

contain the Parent Element food and Shao Yin pairs.

 

I suggested this chapter as a way to look at a non-traditional way

five phase relationships were used that are not soley ZangFu and

sheng and Ko cycles of the five phases. The other applicaitons are

interesting and some would view them as contradictory to popular

applications of five phases, but upon thought makes sense and were

probally used pre-standardized Five Phases applications to herbs.

 

regards,

david

 

 

--- In

Chinese Medicine , " dr_namnguyen58 "

<dr_namnguyen58 wrote:

>

> David,

> Well-thought for metal ( Lu ) nourishing the Water ( Ki ).

> Acrid and pungent are moving, pushing, propelling properties.

These

> properties are helping Qi to move ( any Qi for moving, not just the

> Kid Qi ). If we are analyzing as nourishing, I think I am still

> missing some points.

> Nourishing Ki can be seen as nourishing its Qi, blood, yin,

fluid,

> essence, heat, cold. Which one are we talking about?

> Bitter is dry, enters the Heart ( Fire element ), breakdown

masses,

> dry damp, dry body fluids and essence... This element can

> counter-attack the Kid ( water element ), drying up its essence,

> blood, jing and yin.

> The two combination of bitter and acrid is very strong for

damaging

> Qi, fluids and essence of the whole body, not just on Kid.

> I am sorry to see this differently as what some of us have

found in

> a literature. I do not know nor heard about his herb before this

post.

> But I base it on our TCM, Hugo, provided...... We, TCM , have

learned

> herbs very well. Herbs have 4 Yang properties ( heating, warming,

> freezing and cooling ), 5 Yin properties of flavors ( sour, bitter,

> sweet, pungent, and salty ). They are keys in using in combination

and

> are sometimes classified according to their tastes ( not real

tastes

> but assuming ). We should not only memorize them what channels they

> enter or what they do, but we should also understand their Flavors

and

> yin-yang properties.

> Besides, there is no warming ( neutral ). I do not know how an

herb

> can warming the Kidney or any organ and in itself has no warming

> property. I do not think if such an herb can warm itself before it

can

> warm our bodies.

> I have seen many other well-known herbs had not been using

> properly. This had caused so many adverse effect.

> Is that Shi Nan Ye a reference for us to use alone for

tonifying

> Kid or Liv ??????????????? I do not think so ! Same thing with

other

> well-known herbs. But it may be use in combination with other

warming

> and sweet herbs to tonify Kid or Sto and strong Yin tonic to cool

and

> slow down its activities. I think wiht bitter and acrid is a strong

> descending combination, good for discharge in lower orifices such

as

> in ( constipation or dysuria, impotence ... not with

hemorrhoids )...

>

> I always asked my self about a basic formular Si JUn Zi Tang .

> Si Jun Zi Tang ( Ren Shen, Bai Zhu, Gan Cao, Fu Ling ): Qi

tonic.

> If I want to change a little bit, what is the outcome ???

> Ren shen, Xi Xin, Gan Cao, Fu Ling ???

> Ren shen, Gan Jiang, Gan Cao, Fu Ling ???

> Ren shen, Shan Yao, Gan Cao, Fu Ling ???

> or Dang shen, Bai Zhu, Gan Cao, Fu Ling ??? What is the outcome?

>

> Has anybody tried to formulate or modify some fomulas in their

minds

> and imagined what the changes would be? worse, worst or best

> result..? And at the same time ask themselves why ??? THis is how I

> learn , sound familiar??? I am learning just as a little kid is

> learning, but very interesting.......

>

> Thanks to all,

>

> Nam Nguyen

>

>

>

>

>

> Chinese Medicine ,

> " flyingstarsfengshui " <flyingstarsfengshui@> wrote:

> >

> >

> > Can it be alluding to acrid herbs influencing lungs or really

metal

> > and metal nourishes kidneys, possibly using a alteration of the

> > common way herbs are used. These alternative applications are

also

> > found in Chatper 22 of the Su Wen, its worth reading.

> >

> > regards,

> > david

> >

> > --- In

Chinese Medicine , " henry_buchtel "

> > <henry.buchtel@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Hello Dr. Nguyen,

> > >

> > > There is a line in the Nei Jing- " xin1 yi3 run4 zhi1 " which is

> > > interpreted to mean that (some) acrid herbs can also moisten

(run4)

> > > and nourish.

> > >

> > > " xin1 run4 " is not considered representative of all acrid

herbs,

> > but

> > > perhaps this is why shi nan (ye) is described as acrid in the

> > original

> > > Shen Nong Ben Cao Jing.

> > >

> > > Regards,

> > >

> > > Henry

> > >

> > > --- In

> > Chinese Medicine , " dr_namnguyen58 "

> > > <dr_namnguyen58@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Hugo,

> > > > If you can define more clearly, I would like to learn

more

> > about

> > > > She Nan Ye. Please do not feel offensive. I 've just want to

> > educate

> > > > myself. This seems strange to me, probably I am strange

myself.

> > I

> > > > cannot see the She Nan Ye going into the kid-liv nor tonify

and

> > > > warming them.

> > > > I see acrid, bitter enters the ( Lu-He ), neutral ( not

> > warming ).

> > > > Lu-He I thought it is the upperjiao, pertainging to Qi (

chest or

> > > > Pectorial, Qi of receiving ), Ki-Liv is the lowerjiao ( The

Qi of

> > > > discharging ). I do not see how a neutral herb can warm up

the

> > Ki or

> > > > uterus either. How an acrid and bitter can tonify an organ

such

> > as a

> > > > Liver and Kidney. Bitter clears heat and breaks down mass (

I

> > think it

> > > > has sedative property ), acrid activates Qi ( moves qi and

> > blood, it

> > > > may damages Qi and blood if no Qi or blood tonifying

> > accompanied ). I

> > > > may have missed some points.

> > > >

> > > > Nam Nguyen

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Chinese Medicine , Hugo

Ramiro

> > > > <subincor@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Hi David:

> > > > >

> > > > > Shi Nan Ye is acrid, bitter and neutral in energy. It

enters

> > the

> > > > Liver and Kidneys, opens the luo, expels wind and boosts the

> > Kidneys.

> > > > It treats female infertility with chilly low back and

menstrual

> > > > irregularity. It is uncommonly used in clinical practice.

> > > > > Maciocca is using it to tonify and warm the Kidney Yang

and

> > warm

> > > > the Uterus.

> > > > >

> > > > > Hugo

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > David Toone <david@>

> > > > > Chinese Medicine

> > > > > Sunday, 4 November, 2007 9:30:50 PM

> > > > > Help with Herb Location or Substitution

> > > > >

> > > > > Hello,

> > > > >

> > > > > I was reading on the Maciocia Obstetrics and Gynecology

text

> > about

> > > > > infertility formulas and I came across the herb

> > > > > Shi Nan Ye

> > > > > . I am neither able to find reference material for this

herb,

> > nor am

> > > > > I able to locate it through the herbs companies. Assuming

that

> > it is

> > > > > not available in the US, I was wondering if someone could

> > provide

> > > > > more information about this herb, so I can choose an

available

> > > > > substitute.

> > > > >

> > > > > Many thanks

> > > > >

> > > > > David Toone MSOM, L.Ac.

> > > > > Hill County Health

> > > > > Acupuncture Center of Atlanta

> > > > >

> > > > >

[Guest guest]

David,

Kid deficiency can cause dark face if that is kid Qi or kid Yang

deficiency with Qi stagnation. If there is no obstruction, there is

no dark face, just pale or white pale without luster. But with Kid

Yin deficiency , there will be flush, red or rosy face, then the

warming herbs or pungent would not be appropriate, would it ?

When we are aiming at Shaoyin ( He-Kid, less blood more Qi ) we

are aiming about the channels. But Heart and Kid here , relating to

both Qi ( Heart activates blood ) and blood ( Kidney stores and

nourishes ). Should we concentrate on more Qi than Blood ? I think

we should know which is the problem. For tonifying Qi will produce

Blood, but tonifying blood will make it too heavy for Qi to move and

it may cause more obstruction, more problem and darker face.

People who live in northern region or close to the ocean tend to

eat fish and salty foods which cause blood to thicken and hard to

move. They tend to have dark face. Others who exposes to the sun all

days or to sunrays will have darkskin, but this is healthy for those

individuals because of their melanin production ( to protect their

skin ) more than usual.

 

Nam Nguyen

 

 

--- In

Chinese Medicine , " flyingstarsfengshui "

<flyingstarsfengshui wrote:

>

>

> Hi Dr.

>

> Su Wen, Chapter 22:

>

> " Diseases of the Kidneys correspond to a black and dark face. One

> should eat pungent foods to help it disperse. "

>

> Also bitter foods are heart and part of Shao Yin. So both tastes

> contain the Parent Element food and Shao Yin pairs.

>

> I suggested this chapter as a way to look at a non-traditional way

> five phase relationships were used that are not soley ZangFu and

> sheng and Ko cycles of the five phases. The other applicaitons are

> interesting and some would view them as contradictory to popular

> applications of five phases, but upon thought makes sense and were

> probally used pre-standardized Five Phases applications to herbs.

>

> regards,

> david

>

>

> --- In

> Chinese Medicine , " dr_namnguyen58 "

> <dr_namnguyen58@> wrote:

> >

> > David,

> > Well-thought for metal ( Lu ) nourishing the Water ( Ki ).

> > Acrid and pungent are moving, pushing, propelling properties.

> These

> > properties are helping Qi to move ( any Qi for moving, not just

the

> > Kid Qi ). If we are analyzing as nourishing, I think I am still

> > missing some points.

> > Nourishing Ki can be seen as nourishing its Qi, blood, yin,

> fluid,

> > essence, heat, cold. Which one are we talking about?

> > Bitter is dry, enters the Heart ( Fire element ), breakdown

> masses,

> > dry damp, dry body fluids and essence... This element can

> > counter-attack the Kid ( water element ), drying up its essence,

> > blood, jing and yin.

> > The two combination of bitter and acrid is very strong for

> damaging

> > Qi, fluids and essence of the whole body, not just on Kid.

> > I am sorry to see this differently as what some of us have

> found in

> > a literature. I do not know nor heard about his herb before this

> post.

> > But I base it on our TCM, Hugo, provided...... We, TCM , have

> learned

> > herbs very well. Herbs have 4 Yang properties ( heating, warming,

> > freezing and cooling ), 5 Yin properties of flavors ( sour,

bitter,

> > sweet, pungent, and salty ). They are keys in using in

combination

> and

> > are sometimes classified according to their tastes ( not real

> tastes

> > but assuming ). We should not only memorize them what channels

they

> > enter or what they do, but we should also understand their

Flavors

> and

> > yin-yang properties.

> > Besides, there is no warming ( neutral ). I do not know how an

> herb

> > can warming the Kidney or any organ and in itself has no warming

> > property. I do not think if such an herb can warm itself before

it

> can

> > warm our bodies.

> > I have seen many other well-known herbs had not been using

> > properly. This had caused so many adverse effect.

> > Is that Shi Nan Ye a reference for us to use alone for

> tonifying

> > Kid or Liv ??????????????? I do not think so ! Same thing with

> other

> > well-known herbs. But it may be use in combination with other

> warming

> > and sweet herbs to tonify Kid or Sto and strong Yin tonic to cool

> and

> > slow down its activities. I think wiht bitter and acrid is a

strong

> > descending combination, good for discharge in lower orifices such

> as

> > in ( constipation or dysuria, impotence ... not with

> hemorrhoids )...

> >

> > I always asked my self about a basic formular Si JUn Zi Tang .

> > Si Jun Zi Tang ( Ren Shen, Bai Zhu, Gan Cao, Fu Ling ): Qi

> tonic.

> > If I want to change a little bit, what is the outcome ???

> > Ren shen, Xi Xin, Gan Cao, Fu Ling ???

> > Ren shen, Gan Jiang, Gan Cao, Fu Ling ???

> > Ren shen, Shan Yao, Gan Cao, Fu Ling ???

> > or Dang shen, Bai Zhu, Gan Cao, Fu Ling ??? What is the outcome?

> >

> > Has anybody tried to formulate or modify some fomulas in their

> minds

> > and imagined what the changes would be? worse, worst or best

> > result..? And at the same time ask themselves why ??? THis is how

I

> > learn , sound familiar??? I am learning just as a little kid is

> > learning, but very interesting.......

> >

> > Thanks to all,

> >

> > Nam Nguyen

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Chinese Medicine ,

> > " flyingstarsfengshui " <flyingstarsfengshui@> wrote:

> > >

> > >

> > > Can it be alluding to acrid herbs influencing lungs or really

> metal

> > > and metal nourishes kidneys, possibly using a alteration of the

> > > common way herbs are used. These alternative applications are

> also

> > > found in Chatper 22 of the Su Wen, its worth reading.

> > >

> > > regards,

> > > david

> > >

> > > --- In

> Chinese Medicine , " henry_buchtel "

> > > <henry.buchtel@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Hello Dr. Nguyen,

> > > >

> > > > There is a line in the Nei Jing- " xin1 yi3 run4 zhi1 " which is

> > > > interpreted to mean that (some) acrid herbs can also moisten

> (run4)

> > > > and nourish.

> > > >

> > > > " xin1 run4 " is not considered representative of all acrid

> herbs,

> > > but

> > > > perhaps this is why shi nan (ye) is described as acrid in the

> > > original

> > > > Shen Nong Ben Cao Jing.

> > > >

> > > > Regards,

> > > >

> > > > Henry

> > > >

> > > > --- In

> > > Chinese Medicine , " dr_namnguyen58 "

> > > > <dr_namnguyen58@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Hugo,

> > > > > If you can define more clearly, I would like to learn

> more

> > > about

> > > > > She Nan Ye. Please do not feel offensive. I 've just want

to

> > > educate

> > > > > myself. This seems strange to me, probably I am strange

> myself.

> > > I

> > > > > cannot see the She Nan Ye going into the kid-liv nor tonify

> and

> > > > > warming them.

> > > > > I see acrid, bitter enters the ( Lu-He ), neutral ( not

> > > warming ).

> > > > > Lu-He I thought it is the upperjiao, pertainging to Qi (

> chest or

> > > > > Pectorial, Qi of receiving ), Ki-Liv is the lowerjiao ( The

> Qi of

> > > > > discharging ). I do not see how a neutral herb can warm up

> the

> > > Ki or

> > > > > uterus either. How an acrid and bitter can tonify an organ

> such

> > > as a

> > > > > Liver and Kidney. Bitter clears heat and breaks down mass (

> I

> > > think it

> > > > > has sedative property ), acrid activates Qi ( moves qi and

> > > blood, it

> > > > > may damages Qi and blood if no Qi or blood tonifying

> > > accompanied ). I

> > > > > may have missed some points.

> > > > >

> > > > > Nam Nguyen

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Chinese Medicine , Hugo

> Ramiro

> > > > > <subincor@> wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Hi David:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Shi Nan Ye is acrid, bitter and neutral in energy. It

> enters

> > > the

> > > > > Liver and Kidneys, opens the luo, expels wind and boosts

the

> > > Kidneys.

> > > > > It treats female infertility with chilly low back and

> menstrual

> > > > > irregularity. It is uncommonly used in clinical practice.

> > > > > > Maciocca is using it to tonify and warm the Kidney Yang

> and

> > > warm

> > > > > the Uterus.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Hugo

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > David Toone <david@>

> > > > > > Chinese Medicine

> > > > > > Sunday, 4 November, 2007 9:30:50 PM

> > > > > > Help with Herb Location or Substitution

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Hello,

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I was reading on the Maciocia Obstetrics and Gynecology

> text

> > > about

> > > > > > infertility formulas and I came across the herb

> > > > > > Shi Nan Ye

> > > > > > . I am neither able to find reference material for this

> herb,

> > > nor am

> > > > > > I able to locate it through the herbs companies. Assuming

> that

> > > it is

> > > > > > not available in the US, I was wondering if someone could

> > > provide

> > > > > > more information about this herb, so I can choose an

> available

> > > > > > substitute.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Many thanks

> > > > > >

> > > > > > David Toone MSOM, L.Ac.

> > > > > > Hill County Health

> > > > > > Acupuncture Center of Atlanta

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

[Guest guest]

Hi Dr.

 

I am offering Su Wen information for using pungent herbs for Kidney

conditions. My suggestion is to study the chapter and see if it is of

value.

 

I don't think you can use a pure zangfu model for this application.

The Su Wen writers could imply pungent will disperse Lung energetics

to assist in the treatment of its child, the kidneys.

it will send energy to the kidneys. All the applications in that

chapter are flexible.

 

regards,

david

[Guest guest]

Hi Herman,

 

Thanks for the lengthy and interesting reply. It is much appreciated. I think we

agree far

more than disagree. I absolutely concur that accurate and consistant translation

of terms

is important and without it valuable nuance can at times be lost. You also make

important

points about the nature of Shinanye, which I failed to make in my original

posts. It was

purely for time-related reasons that I didn't translate more of the ZYDCD entry,

and I

suppose my incomplete translation was more a dis-service and will be more

cautious in

the future.

 

Not that it's a big deal but to clarify, regarding your statement below in

referrence to me, I

made no comment on this, I think it was someone else. I don't believe I have any

" translations " (do you mean into modern Chinese?) of Shen Nong Ben Cao Jing,

unless the

SNBCJ in the " Zhong Hua Yi Dian " CD-Rom on my computer is a translantion, which

I am

highly doubtful of.

 

> Greg, the `translation' of Shennong bencao jing you have on your

> desk has added things that are not in the source text (this was not

> clear from your post). Actually, the original entry is shinan

> (without cao or ye). A Chinese commentator states that shinan

> includes the leaves and the seeds. The statement that the seeds are

> good at dispelling wind comes from a commentary on the source text,

> and the warning against lust-inducing effects are from another text

> (I've seen it somewhere, forgot where).

 

Thanks again for your valuable comments. Most appreciated!

 

Best wishes,

 

Greg

[Guest guest]

Thanks to everyone for the wonderful and informative posts. I was

expecting a quick answer, instead what I received was tremendously

valuable lesson.

 

Dave

 

 

On Nov 8, 2007, at 12:59 PM, Herman Oving wrote:

 

> Hi Joe,

>

> Nice contribution!

>

> > yang2 = to raise / to hoist / the action of tossing or winnowing /

> > scattering (in the wind) / to flutter / to propagate

>

> I think Greg misspelled yang2. It is yang3, to nourish.

>

> Herman

>

> Chinese Medicine , " jreidomd "

> <jreidomd wrote:

> >

> > Re: _yi4 , _bu3_ , etc. The following online definitions are

> > interesting to compare. (from MDBG.net, also see

> > tigernt.com/cedict.shtml for easier whole field limited search if

> you

> > don't have the character).

> >

> > Note that _ bu3 _ is the only term that distinctly refers to repair

> > (of damage) or filling a void that presumably had substance at some

> > prior time.

> >

> > The other terms could perhaps all fit improving a relatively

> healthy

> > status. If modern Zhongwen usage / connotations have changed

> anything

> > like English over the centuries, then who could possibly know for

> sure.

> >

> > bu3 = to repair / to patch / to mend / to make up for / to fill (a

> > vacancy) / to supplement

> >

> > yi4 = benefit / increase

> >

> > tian1 = to add / to increase / to replenish

> >

> > jia1 qiang2 = to reinforce / to strengthen / to increase

> >

> > yang2 = to raise / to hoist / the action of tossing or winnowing /

> > scattering (in the wind) / to flutter / to propagate

> >

> > Joe Reid, chu1xue2zhe3

> > jreidomd.blogspot.com

> >

>

>

>