robb7thurston@...: Massive IBS caused by antiobiotics: ADVISE

[Guest guest]

I wish to present a case to you. The case has a life threatening

condition which needs to be addressed, and I desire TCM feedback,

please.

Name: Sergios

Age: 60 year old caucasian male

Height 6'5''

Weight: 230

BP: 120/80 with medication, otherwise hypertension

Temperature: 98.6

Pre-existing conditions: atrial fibrillation, hypertension, and

neuro-psycholoogical disease. The latter: latter: major depression,

anxiety, slow psychomotor speed, memory loss. These are well

palliated with medications, to follow.

Atrial fibrillation is irregular irregular and mild in its

presentation. Do not fear, it is observed by a cardiologist.

TCM diagnosis: 1990: heat in stomach and intestines, cold in

heart and spleen; today: phlegm in pericardium and weak spleen. Also

diagnosed ca. 2000 as bright yang lesser yang stage.

Medications: celexa (20mg. p.d.); hydrochlorothiazide (50mg. p.d.);

acetaminophen: (500mg. p.d.)

TCM: wen dan tang and tien ma with adjustments to the formulas. Topical

suan zao ren tang for sleep.

Goal: patient has an underlying condition of potential iritable

bowel syndrome which is massively enflamed and aggravated

by antibiotics. Patient has had wen bing for some

infections, tolerated

extremely well, and does not want to be deprived of all

antibiotics.

Remarks: several antibiotics have begun to produce massive

aggarvations to irritable bowel, and MDs have remarked that

this is a reaction to antibiotics, not an allergy, not anaphylaxis.

Summary: senior who desires to be able, in a severe infection to

use antibiotics. TCM forum is invited to suggest any therapy

which might produce a capacity

to tolerate antibiotics. I personally would like to hope that

tea granules could

be administered with or before antibiotics to ensure toleration.

Patient is totally compliant

and well aware of all modes of TCM, diet, meditation, chi kung,

etc. and desires to work with Acupuncturist to

heal intolerance and prepare for possible future success of

antibiotics, if needed.

ADVISE.

Robb Thurston

<<robb7thurston>

[Guest guest]

robb, would you describe his bowel sx in some detail? he is having diarrhea? has

his stool, i hope so, been tested for c. difficile? from what you said so far it

sure sounds like pts i have seen who had this. seniors are prone to this after

antbx tx. do note that only handwashing protects against c. diff. toxin. even

hand disinfectants that provide protection against mrsa *do not* protect against

c. diff. toxin. hope this is helpful, lynn

 

robb thurston wrote:

> I wish to present a case to you. The case has a life threatening

> condition which needs to be addressed, and I desire TCM feedback,

> please.

> Name: Sergios

> Age: 60 year old caucasian male

> Height 6'5''

> Weight: 230

> BP: 120/80 with medication, otherwise hypertension

> Temperature: 98.6

> Pre-existing conditions: atrial fibrillation, hypertension, and

> neuro-psycholoogica l disease. The latter: latter: major

depression,

> anxiety, slow psychomotor speed, memory loss. These are well

> palliated with medications, to follow.

> Atrial fibrillation is irregular irregular and mild in its

> presentation. Do not fear, it is observed by a cardiologist.

> TCM diagnosis: 1990: heat in stomach and intestines, cold in

> heart and spleen; today: phlegm in pericardium and weak spleen.

Also

> diagnosed ca. 2000 as bright yang lesser yang stage.

> Medications: celexa (20mg. p.d.); hydrochlorothiazide (50mg. p.d.);

> acetaminophen: (500mg. p.d.)

> TCM: wen dan tang and tien ma with adjustments to the formulas. Topical

> suan zao ren tang for sleep.

> Goal: patient has an underlying condition of potential iritable

> bowel syndrome which is massively enflamed and aggravated

> by antibiotics. Patient has had wen bing for some

> infections, tolerated

> extremely well, and does not want to be deprived of all

> antibiotics.

> Remarks: several antibiotics have begun to produce massive

> aggarvations to irritable bowel, and MDs have remarked that

> this is a reaction to antibiotics, not an allergy, not anaphylaxis.

> Summary: senior who desires to be able, in a severe infection to

> use antibiotics. TCM forum is invited to suggest any therapy

> which might produce a capacity

> to tolerate antibiotics. I personally would like to hope that

> tea granules could

> be administered with or before antibiotics to ensure toleration.

> Patient is totally compliant

> and well aware of all modes of TCM, diet, meditation, chi kung,

> etc. and desires to work with Acupuncturist to

> heal intolerance and prepare for possible future success of

> antibiotics, if needed.

> ADVISE.

> Robb Thurston

> << robb7thurston@ gmail.com >>

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Robb, his diet needs to be impeccable. What have you done on that side?

Hugo

 

 

robb thurston <robb7thurston

Chinese Traditional Medicine

Thursday, 25 October, 2007 12:52:46 PM

robb7thurston: Massive IBS caused by antiobiotics:

ADVISE

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I wish to present a case to you. The case has a life threatening

 

condition which needs to be addressed, and I desire TCM feedback,

 

please.

 

Name: Sergios

 

Age: 60 year old caucasian male

 

Height 6'5''

 

Weight: 230

 

BP: 120/80 with medication, otherwise hypertension

 

Temperature: 98.6

 

Pre-existing conditions: atrial fibrillation, hypertension, and

 

neuro-psycholoogica l disease. The latter: latter: major depression,

 

anxiety, slow psychomotor speed, memory loss. These are well

 

palliated with medications, to follow.

 

Atrial fibrillation is irregular irregular and mild in its

 

presentation. Do not fear, it is observed by a cardiologist.

 

TCM diagnosis: 1990: heat in stomach and intestines, cold in

 

heart and spleen; today: phlegm in pericardium and weak spleen. Also

 

diagnosed ca. 2000 as bright yang lesser yang stage.

 

Medications: celexa (20mg. p.d.); hydrochlorothiazide (50mg. p.d.);

 

acetaminophen: (500mg. p.d.)

 

TCM: wen dan tang and tien ma with adjustments to the formulas. Topical

 

suan zao ren tang for sleep.

 

Goal: patient has an underlying condition of potential iritable

 

bowel syndrome which is massively enflamed and aggravated

 

by antibiotics. Patient has had wen bing for some

 

infections, tolerated

 

extremely well, and does not want to be deprived of all

 

antibiotics.

 

Remarks: several antibiotics have begun to produce massive

 

aggarvations to irritable bowel, and MDs have remarked that

 

this is a reaction to antibiotics, not an allergy, not anaphylaxis.

 

Summary: senior who desires to be able, in a severe infection to

 

use antibiotics. TCM forum is invited to suggest any therapy

 

which might produce a capacity

 

to tolerate antibiotics. I personally would like to hope that

 

tea granules could

 

be administered with or before antibiotics to ensure toleration.

 

Patient is totally compliant

 

and well aware of all modes of TCM, diet, meditation, chi kung,

 

etc. and desires to work with Acupuncturist to

 

heal intolerance and prepare for possible future success of

 

antibiotics, if needed.

 

ADVISE.

 

Robb Thurston

 

<<robb7thurston@ gmail.com>>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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_________

Answers - Got a question? Someone out there knows the answer. Try it

now.

http://uk.answers./

 

 

[Guest guest]

Rob,

 

Gut flora is the key.He needs massive doses of probiotics.

 

I can let you know about extremely powerful doses off list as I do not wish

to name products here.

 

Ray

 

 

 

_____

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of robb

thurston

Friday, 26 October 2007 5:53 AM

Chinese Traditional Medicine

robb7thurston: Massive IBS caused by antiobiotics:

ADVISE

 

 

 

I wish to present a case to you. The case has a life threatening

condition which needs to be addressed, and I desire TCM feedback,

please.

Name: Sergios

Age: 60 year old caucasian male

Height 6'5''

Weight: 230

BP: 120/80 with medication, otherwise hypertension

Temperature: 98.6

Pre-existing conditions: atrial fibrillation, hypertension, and

neuro-psycholoogical disease. The latter: latter: major depression,

anxiety, slow psychomotor speed, memory loss. These are well

palliated with medications, to follow.

Atrial fibrillation is irregular irregular and mild in its

presentation. Do not fear, it is observed by a cardiologist.

TCM diagnosis: 1990: heat in stomach and intestines, cold in

heart and spleen; today: phlegm in pericardium and weak spleen. Also

diagnosed ca. 2000 as bright yang lesser yang stage.

Medications: celexa (20mg. p.d.); hydrochlorothiazide (50mg. p.d.);

acetaminophen: (500mg. p.d.)

TCM: wen dan tang and tien ma with adjustments to the formulas. Topical

suan zao ren tang for sleep.

Goal: patient has an underlying condition of potential iritable

bowel syndrome which is massively enflamed and aggravated

by antibiotics. Patient has had wen bing for some

infections, tolerated

extremely well, and does not want to be deprived of all

antibiotics.

Remarks: several antibiotics have begun to produce massive

aggarvations to irritable bowel, and MDs have remarked that

this is a reaction to antibiotics, not an allergy, not anaphylaxis.

Summary: senior who desires to be able, in a severe infection to

use antibiotics. TCM forum is invited to suggest any therapy

which might produce a capacity

to tolerate antibiotics. I personally would like to hope that

tea granules could

be administered with or before antibiotics to ensure toleration.

Patient is totally compliant

and well aware of all modes of TCM, diet, meditation, chi kung,

etc. and desires to work with Acupuncturist to

heal intolerance and prepare for possible future success of

antibiotics, if needed.

ADVISE.

Robb Thurston

<<robb7thurston@ <robb7thurston%40gmail.com> gmail.com>>

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I haven't been online in a bit, I'm not TCM yet but from a doctor's view

that is holistic

 

 

 

1) this person should be on a probiotic- (ie like acidophillius) I would

have hoped his doctor would have had him on that

 

2) This person's diet is? Is he eating active cultures? Yoghurt?

 

The antibiotics probably destroyed all the good flora in his system at BEST

and at worst is giving him c difificile -you said his bowel was aggravated

you didn't mention if he was having bad diarrhea or not.

 

Diet is everything for these people, as is their inner life. I had a patient

who wouldn't leave the house until I worked with her on how to deal with the

outside world and people trying to get her to eat foods she knew she

couldn't

 

 

 

Probiotics!! And does he really really really need all those antibiotics?

 

 

 

 

 

robb thurston <robb7thurston@ <robb7thurston%40gmail.com>

gmail.com>

traditional_ <Chinese Traditional Medicine%40>

chinese_medicine

Thursday, 25 October, 2007 12:52:46 PM

robb7thurston@ <robb7thurston%40gmail.com> gmail.com:

Massive IBS caused by antiobiotics: ADVISE

 

I wish to present a case to you. The case has a life threatening

 

condition which needs to be addressed, and I desire TCM feedback,

 

please.

 

Name: Sergios

 

Age: 60 year old caucasian male

 

Height 6'5''

 

Weight: 230

 

BP: 120/80 with medication, otherwise hypertension

 

Temperature: 98.6

 

Pre-existing conditions: atrial fibrillation, hypertension, and

 

neuro-psycholoogica l disease. The latter: latter: major depression,

 

anxiety, slow psychomotor speed, memory loss. These are well

 

palliated with medications, to follow.

 

Atrial fibrillation is irregular irregular and mild in its

 

presentation. Do not fear, it is observed by a cardiologist.

 

TCM diagnosis: 1990: heat in stomach and intestines, cold in

 

heart and spleen; today: phlegm in pericardium and weak spleen. Also

 

diagnosed ca. 2000 as bright yang lesser yang stage.

 

Medications: celexa (20mg. p.d.); hydrochlorothiazide (50mg. p.d.);

 

acetaminophen: (500mg. p.d.)

 

TCM: wen dan tang and tien ma with adjustments to the formulas. Topical

 

suan zao ren tang for sleep.

 

Goal: patient has an underlying condition of potential iritable

 

bowel syndrome which is massively enflamed and aggravated

 

by antibiotics. Patient has had wen bing for some

 

infections, tolerated

 

extremely well, and does not want to be deprived of all

 

antibiotics.

 

Remarks: several antibiotics have begun to produce massive

 

aggarvations to irritable bowel, and MDs have remarked that

 

this is a reaction to antibiotics, not an allergy, not anaphylaxis.

 

Summary: senior who desires to be able, in a severe infection to

 

use antibiotics. TCM forum is invited to suggest any therapy

 

which might produce a capacity

 

to tolerate antibiotics. I personally would like to hope that

 

tea granules could

 

be administered with or before antibiotics to ensure toleration.

 

Patient is totally compliant

 

and well aware of all modes of TCM, diet, meditation, chi kung,

 

etc. and desires to work with Acupuncturist to

 

heal intolerance and prepare for possible future success of

 

antibiotics, if needed.

 

ADVISE.

 

Robb Thurston

 

<<robb7thurston@ gmail.com>>

 

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Answers - Got a question? Someone out there knows the answer. Try it

now.

http://uk.answers. <http://uk.answers./> /

 

 

[Guest guest]

I would discon the wen dan tang for now and try DIFFERENT probiotics a

few days at a time until you find the right mix. This is one of the

simplest examples of need to stay abreast of modern med in modern

populations. Of course if everybody had as many bing4jun1 as a

typical Chinese gut, maybe there wouldn't be a need for store-bought.

see : . . .

>>>New Strategies in Development for Treating Clostridium difficile

Bob Roehr Medscape Medical News 2007. © 2007 Medscape

September 24, 2007 (Chicago) — Orally administered & #946;-lactam enzymes

are being developed to prevent the " collateral damage " of antibiotic

use that can knock out beneficial flora colonizing the gut. These

microflora aid in the digestion of food and protect against pathogens

such as the overgrowth of Clostridium difficile.

Clostridium difficile is a gram-positive anaerobic bacillus that

produces 2 forms of toxins. It flourishes in an environment where

antibiotic use has killed off beneficial gut bacteria; overgrowth can

cause pseudomembranous colitis and antibiotic-associated diarrhea.

Recent outbreaks have seen the emergence of more toxic strains of C

difficile in hospital settings, and incidence of death has increased.

Environmental stress can cause the bacillus to form spores that are

difficult to treat and that are resistant to regular infection control

measures.

Usha Stiefel, MD, assistant professor at the Case Western Reserve

University School of Medicine, Cleveland, Ohio, presented preclinical

data in mice showing that the & #946;-lactams enzyme afforded protection

against pathogens when combined with parenteral administration of

antibiotics. These new data were presented here at the 47th Annual

Interscience Conference on Antimicrobial Agents and Chemotherapy.

 

" Animals treated with antibiotics alone showed loss of their normal

bacterial flora and massive overgrowth of C difficile to over 10

million bacteria/mL, " she said, adding, " Mice that were treated with

the & #946;-lactatine enzyme along with the antibiotic retained their flora. "

 

She continued, " We think it was because the enzyme was inactivating

any of the antibiotic that entered their intestinal tract, and they

didn't develop overgrowth of C difficile in their intestinal content. "

 

Dr. Stiefel later explained to Medscape Infectious Diseases that the

& #946;-lactamase enzyme is very poorly absorbed and so has little effect on

circulating systemic levels of the antibiotic. The enzyme essentially

pools in the gut, along with other undigested and unabsorbed matter,

until it is excreted. While there, however, it offers concentrated

neutralizing protection.

 

" We think these findings are exciting and might eventually represent a

new strategy to protect hospitalized patients from the adverse

consequence of antibiotic therapy, " she said. [ . . . . continues ]<<<

[Guest guest]

I just wanted to point out that IBS is a chronic, as opposed to an

acute, symdrome. I agree with Rob. A light does of acidophillus or

probiotics will probably do the trick within a few days. For mild

cases, just yogurt so metimes helps.

 

(probiotics are natural products that increase the " good " bacteria in

the gut that aid in digestion. these bacteria are commonly killed off

during a course of anti-biotics.)

 

Marie

[Guest guest]

Hi Robb,

 

I just recently completed a round of high-dose antibiotics for a severe tooth

abscess. My dentist advised me beforehand that this particular antibiotic

(clindamycin) was the first recognized to cause a specific type of colitis, and

that any antibiotic and ibuprofen also can cause this. It is also worthy to

note that the colitis can arise as long as 3-6 months after the antibiotic use

has been completed! Sneaky, eh? I googled clindamycin and found it easy to

locate the info he was talking about. He told me to expect green diarrhea while

taking it.

 

It turns out the antibiotics, as we know, destroy good bacteria in our gut, and

in this case, a specific " bad " kind overgrows and runs amok - if I remember

correctly, it was clostridium. This overpopulation irritates the intestinal

lining, and can cause bloody diarrhea.

 

Prophylactically, I took a wide-spectrum lactobacillus capsule that is

enterically-coated, with each dose of antibiotics. I also took Bao He Wan,

because I experienced a great deal of bloating and stomach cramping. And

because antibiotics are bitter and cold by nature, I drank alot of hot broth,

which helped with my discomfort. To my surprise, I became constipated rather

than having diarrhea.

 

I finished up the antibiotics 4 days ago, and I will be paying special attention

to my digestive symptoms for the next few months, and using herbs to strengthen

as necessary.

 

By the way, I have a history of IBS, and I was concerned about it flaring up

with these meds - which I am grateful to report, did not happen. In fact, it has

not flared up for a very long time.

 

 

 

robb thurston <robb7thurston wrote: I wish to present a case to you.

The case has a life threatening

condition which needs to be addressed, and I desire TCM feedback,

please.

Name: Sergios

Age: 60 year old caucasian male

Height 6'5''

Weight: 230

BP: 120/80 with medication, otherwise hypertension

Temperature: 98.6

Pre-existing conditions: atrial fibrillation, hypertension, and

neuro-psycholoogical disease. The latter: latter: major depression,

anxiety, slow psychomotor speed, memory loss. These are well

palliated with medications, to follow.

Atrial fibrillation is irregular irregular and mild in its

presentation. Do not fear, it is observed by a cardiologist.

TCM diagnosis: 1990: heat in stomach and intestines, cold in

heart and spleen; today: phlegm in pericardium and weak spleen. Also

diagnosed ca. 2000 as bright yang lesser yang stage.

Medications: celexa (20mg. p.d.); hydrochlorothiazide (50mg. p.d.);

acetaminophen: (500mg. p.d.)

TCM: wen dan tang and tien ma with adjustments to the formulas. Topical

suan zao ren tang for sleep.

Goal: patient has an underlying condition of potential iritable

bowel syndrome which is massively enflamed and aggravated

by antibiotics. Patient has had wen bing for some

infections, tolerated

extremely well, and does not want to be deprived of all

antibiotics.

Remarks: several antibiotics have begun to produce massive

aggarvations to irritable bowel, and MDs have remarked that

this is a reaction to antibiotics, not an allergy, not anaphylaxis.

Summary: senior who desires to be able, in a severe infection to

use antibiotics. TCM forum is invited to suggest any therapy

which might produce a capacity

to tolerate antibiotics. I personally would like to hope that

tea granules could

be administered with or before antibiotics to ensure toleration.

Patient is totally compliant

and well aware of all modes of TCM, diet, meditation, chi kung,

etc. and desires to work with Acupuncturist to

heal intolerance and prepare for possible future success of

antibiotics, if needed.

ADVISE.

Robb Thurston

<>

 

 

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