MD-bashing & the politics of integrating TCM in national healthcare

[Guest guest]

Hi Phil

 

We know each other within this and other AP/OM groups for near close to ten

years.

 

I highly respect you and your evaluations over the years.

 

Let's us not miss the salient points.

 

1) This is not and has not been MD bashing.

2) Possibly this might more appropriately be called " System " bashing.

3) When anyone can use and/or practice acupuncture and oriental medicine

without sufficient training then there is a huge problem not to mention fraud

perpetrated upon the public.

4) When under the aegis of allopathic medicine (MD or DO).... a nurse,

physical therapist, Nurse Practitioner, or even a basic Medical Assistant can

use

and/or practice acupuncture and furthermore receive reimbursement for

same.....that's a lot more than MD bashing.

6) Fighting for equal status is what every other profession has done in th

epast.....why not AP/OM?

7) Just because the outlook might be bleak does not mean that we should jump

ship and give it up.

 

Richard

 

 

 

 

In a message dated 10/8/2007 7:17:59 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

writes:

 

 

 

 

Hi All,

 

Here are comments on two very separate issues:

(1) Bashing colleageus with less expertise than we think we have

and

(2) Fighting for equal status of AP & TCM with WM in national healthcare

 

(1) I would appreciate it if we could stop bashing MDs & 100 hr

acupuncturists. Some of my friends (and my youngest daughter) are MDs.

They are great people and highly dedicated professionals.

 

IMO, there are two main forms of study, formal (within a recognised school

or course, attendance at professional conferences, etc) and informal (self-

study, membership of small study groups, active participation in

professional

lists, studying by doing, etc).

 

IMO, not one of us (and no one medical system) has all the answers to

medical problems. All of us had to start practising somewhere, be it after

50

/ 100 / 500 hours of weekend introductory acupuncture lectures, or several

years of a formal third-level full-time course.

 

IMO, the practice of successful medicine (in whatever discipline or

specialty

one uses) involves a life-time of study and continuing education.

 

If practitioner A (with X hours or years of study & experience) could ban

practitioner B, who has (X-1) hours or years of study & experience, none of

us could practice.

 

Let us respect the goodwill and professional expertise of our colleagues.

Let

us stop the bashing and encourage those with less formal study than we

would like to study more and harder.

 

(2) Fighting for equal status of AP & TCM with WM in national healthcare is

a different issue, one that is much more problematic to resolve.

 

IMO, this issue is POLITICAL / FINANCIAL rather than medical. It basically

is a turf-war that revolves around who has (or which GROUPS have)

POWER.

 

People or groups wh have power / status do not want to lose that, or have it

 

diluted. Big Pharma, the hospital industry and the (currently) dominant

position of conventional WM in national healthcare will fight tooth and nail

to

maintain dominance and administrative power and keep " outsiders " outside

of the system.

 

The best that we can hope for in the short-term is that AP / TCM may be

" tolerated " in some public health areas, but under the control of the

conventional medical profession, i.e. in an inferior position that does not

threaten their status or authority.

 

Most WM structures already are hierarchical. The pecking-order (and the

related annual income) is established. The salary and authority of the top

consultants / professors are (and always will be) much higher than those of

interns or junior academics in their first year. In turn, salaries (and

authority)

of MDs are higher than those of physios, nurses and nurse-attendants, etc.

 

I decided to get out of the POLITICS of integration of TCM with WM many

years ago. IMO, we should not fight a war that we cannot win. Instead, I try

to change the mind-sets of my friends, neighbours and clients to make them

more open to the idea and value of holistic medicine.

 

AP / TCM may not attain equal and integrated status with WM in national

healthcare in my current lifetime, but I cherish the dream that I may see

such integration in a future reincarnation.

 

Best regards,

Phil Rogers

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi All,

 

Here are comments on two very separate issues:

(1) Bashing colleageus with less expertise than we think we have

and

(2) Fighting for equal status of AP & TCM with WM in national healthcare

 

(1) I would appreciate it if we could stop bashing MDs & 100 hr

acupuncturists. Some of my friends (and my youngest daughter) are MDs.

They are great people and highly dedicated professionals.

 

IMO, there are two main forms of study, formal (within a recognised school

or course, attendance at professional conferences, etc) and informal (self-

study, membership of small study groups, active participation in professional

lists, studying by doing, etc).

 

IMO, not one of us (and no one medical system) has all the answers to

medical problems. All of us had to start practising somewhere, be it after 50

/ 100 / 500 hours of weekend introductory acupuncture lectures, or several

years of a formal third-level full-time course.

 

IMO, the practice of successful medicine (in whatever discipline or specialty

one uses) involves a life-time of study and continuing education.

 

If practitioner A (with X hours or years of study & experience) could ban

practitioner B, who has (X-1) hours or years of study & experience, none of

us could practice.

 

Let us respect the goodwill and professional expertise of our colleagues. Let

us stop the bashing and encourage those with less formal study than we

would like to study more and harder.

 

(2) Fighting for equal status of AP & TCM with WM in national healthcare is

a different issue, one that is much more problematic to resolve.

 

IMO, this issue is POLITICAL / FINANCIAL rather than medical. It basically

is a turf-war that revolves around who has (or which GROUPS have)

POWER.

 

People or groups wh have power / status do not want to lose that, or have it

diluted. Big Pharma, the hospital industry and the (currently) dominant

position of conventional WM in national healthcare will fight tooth and nail to

maintain dominance and administrative power and keep " outsiders " outside

of the system.

 

The best that we can hope for in the short-term is that AP / TCM may be

" tolerated " in some public health areas, but under the control of the

conventional medical profession, i.e. in an inferior position that does not

threaten their status or authority.

 

Most WM structures already are hierarchical. The pecking-order (and the

related annual income) is established. The salary and authority of the top

consultants / professors are (and always will be) much higher than those of

interns or junior academics in their first year. In turn, salaries (and

authority)

of MDs are higher than those of physios, nurses and nurse-attendants, etc.

 

I decided to get out of the POLITICS of integration of TCM with WM many

years ago. IMO, we should not fight a war that we cannot win. Instead, I try

to change the mind-sets of my friends, neighbours and clients to make them

more open to the idea and value of holistic medicine.

 

AP / TCM may not attain equal and integrated status with WM in national

healthcare in my current lifetime, but I cherish the dream that I may see

such integration in a future reincarnation.

 

Best regards,

 

[Guest guest]

Phil,

 

Certainly you would agree that this is a problem and that currently no other

healthcare

profession allows (multi tiered education and practice). Don't the patients

deserve to

have a properly trained practitioner and better yet why are the MD so afraid of

getting

a degree in our profession (ego, money, etc)? Our young profession needs to

address this (legal challenges, changes in statutes, etc). This is not meant to

be an

attack on the MD, only that they should practice within their formal training.

We are

beyond the correspondence training courses and you will not get a license if you

were to try that route (not in the states anyway). Honesty is a good thing and

this is an issue that needs to be dealt with. BTW, we are seeing a trend that

the MD types are getting reimbursed by insurance while many of us are no longer.

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

 

 

: :

Mon, 8 Oct 2007 12:17:23 +0100MD-bashing & the politics of

integrating TCM in national healthcare

 

 

 

 

Hi All,Here are comments on two very separate issues: (1) Bashing colleageus

with less expertise than we think we have and (2) Fighting for equal status of

AP & TCM with WM in national healthcare(1) I would appreciate it if we could

stop bashing MDs & 100 hr acupuncturists. Some of my friends (and my youngest

daughter) are MDs. They are great people and highly dedicated professionals.IMO,

there are two main forms of study, formal (within a recognised school or course,

attendance at professional conferences, etc) and informal (self-study,

membership of small study groups, active participation in professional lists,

studying by doing, etc). IMO, not one of us (and no one medical system) has all

the answers to medical problems. All of us had to start practising somewhere, be

it after 50 / 100 / 500 hours of weekend introductory acupuncture lectures, or

several years of a formal third-level full-time course. IMO, the practice of

successful medicine (in whatever discipline or specialty one uses) involves a

life-time of study and continuing education. If practitioner A (with X hours or

years of study & experience) could ban practitioner B, who has (X-1) hours or

years of study & experience, none of us could practice.Let us respect the

goodwill and professional expertise of our colleagues. Let us stop the bashing

and encourage those with less formal study than we would like to study more and

harder.(2) Fighting for equal status of AP & TCM with WM in national healthcare

is a different issue, one that is much more problematic to resolve. IMO, this

issue is POLITICAL / FINANCIAL rather than medical. It basically is a turf-war

that revolves around who has (or which GROUPS have) POWER. People or groups wh

have power / status do not want to lose that, or have it diluted. Big Pharma,

the hospital industry and the (currently) dominant position of conventional WM

in national healthcare will fight tooth and nail to maintain dominance and

administrative power and keep " outsiders " outside of the system. The best that

we can hope for in the short-term is that AP / TCM may be " tolerated " in some

public health areas, but under the control of the conventional medical

profession, i.e. in an inferior position that does not threaten their status or

authority.Most WM structures already are hierarchical. The pecking-order (and

the related annual income) is established. The salary and authority of the top

consultants / professors are (and always will be) much higher than those of

interns or junior academics in their first year. In turn, salaries (and

authority) of MDs are higher than those of physios, nurses and nurse-attendants,

etc.I decided to get out of the POLITICS of integration of TCM with WM many

years ago. IMO, we should not fight a war that we cannot win. Instead, I try to

change the mind-sets of my friends, neighbours and clients to make them more

open to the idea and value of holistic medicine.AP / TCM may not attain equal

and integrated status with WM in national healthcare in my current lifetime, but

I cherish the dream that I may see such integration in a future

reincarnation.Best regards,

 

 

 

 

 

 

_______________

Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You!

http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM & loc=us

 

 

[Guest guest]

Phil and All,

 

I would have to join you, Phil, in your perspective on this. I feel there is

little threat to the AP/OM community from MDs embracing any aspect of Chinese

medicine in their professional duties. Quite the opposite. Oriental medicine's

ability to seep into a wide variety of venues in Western cultures will raise all

ships invested in this work. I would never stand its way.

 

There are many MDs in America performing medical procedures without the board

certification for the most advanced training in that particular area of

treatment. If you want the most advanced treatment, you go to the specialist

who has board certification. If your primary care physician feels confident

about doing it and you have confidence in him or her, then move forward that

person. I do much the same when I seek the advice of any professional in any

field whatsoever for myself or for others. I go to the highly qualified

professor for the toughest issues. I get general confirmations from the general

practitioner colleagues.

 

The bottom line for me I sense is much the same as it is for you. I'd like to

see Oriental medicine become so accessible that if feels as though it belongs to

my culture. Is English breakfast tea not Chinese or Indian? I hope Oriental

medicine becomes that much a part of my own culture. I would not get in the way

of anyone fighting for their " perceived " piece of turf any more than I would get

in the way of a family argument. I think everyone has to go through this, and

some will never be done with it. I think the arguments for fighting such a turf

war are absolutely genuine and authentic, even developmentally necessary.

 

So the war itself will never be done. Each generation will take it to the next

step. Perhaps at some distant future step in some future integrated culture the

Oriental medical practitioner as well as the allopathic surgeon will have to

start off with the same " health care " doctorate first before practicing the arts

specific to Oriental medicine or allopathy. They will both have to pass through

the same healthcare " doctorate " portal in order to practice in the acute care

facilities of that future culture. Then and only then can they become,

" interns " , and then " residents " and later board certified. I would be surprised

if that seemed fair to anyone here but me.

 

My hopes are for the availability of Oriental medicine and not limited to any of

its players or industries. I would like to drink the teas of the world.

 

Respectfully and gratefully,

Emmanuel Segmen

 

 

[Guest guest]

I must respectfully disagree here. The comparison to accepted medical

procedures performed by non-specialists is not accurate, simply because

acupuncture is NOT an accepted procedure. If we allow it to be performed

in a way that ensures a lower chance of success (i.e. by amateurs), then

this will hurt acupuncture's acceptance into the healthcare mainstream.

Perhaps once acupuncture has become accepted as actually efficacious for

all the conditions for which we employ it successfully in our own

clinics, THEN we can allow it to become more diffuse in the healthcare

world because people will not confuse incompetence with lack of efficacy

across the board for the procedure itself. But right now, we aren't even

close to being there.

-Ben Hawes, L.Ac.

 

 

MD-bashing & the politics of integrating TCM in national

healthcare

<Chinese Medicine/message/27063;_ylc=X\

3oDMTJyNnMwajE2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzk0OTU5NzcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwODE0BG1zZ\

0lkAzI3MDYzBHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzExOTIwOTEyMTc->

 

 

 

Posted by: " Emmanuel Segmen " susegmen

<susegmen?Subject=%20Re%3AMD-bashing%20%26%20the%20politics\

%20of%20integrating%20TCM%20in%20national%20healthcare>

emmanuelsegmen <http://profiles./emmanuelsegmen>

 

 

Wed Oct 10, 2007 9:58 pm (PST)

 

Phil and All,

 

I would have to join you, Phil, in your perspective on this. I

feel there is little threat to the AP/OM community from MDs

embracing any aspect of Chinese medicine in their professional

duties. Quite the opposite. Oriental medicine's ability to seep

into a wide variety of venues in Western cultures will raise all

ships invested in this work. I would never stand its way.

 

There are many MDs in America performing medical procedures

without the board certification for the most advanced training

in that particular area of treatment. If you want the most

advanced treatment, you go to the specialist who has board

certification. If your primary care physician feels confident

about doing it and you have confidence in him or her, then move

forward that person. I do much the same when I seek the advice

of any professional in any field whatsoever for myself or for

others. I go to the highly qualified professor for the toughest

issues. I get general confirmations from the general

practitioner colleagues.

 

The bottom line for me I sense is much the same as it is for

you. I'd like to see Oriental medicine become so accessible that

if feels as though it belongs to my culture. Is English

breakfast tea not Chinese or Indian? I hope Oriental medicine

becomes that much a part of my own culture. I would not get in

the way of anyone fighting for their " perceived " piece of turf

any more than I would get in the way of a family argument. I

think everyone has to go through this, and some will never be

done with it. I think the arguments for fighting such a turf war

are absolutely genuine and authentic, even developmentally

necessary.

 

So the war itself will never be done. Each generation will take

it to the next step. Perhaps at some distant future step in some

future integrated culture the Oriental medical practitioner as

well as the allopathic surgeon will have to start off with the

same " health care " doctorate first before practicing the arts

specific to Oriental medicine or allopathy. They will both have

to pass through the same healthcare " doctorate " portal in order

to practice in the acute care facilities of that future culture.

Then and only then can they become, " interns " , and then

" residents " and later board certified. I would be surprised if

that seemed fair to anyone here but me.

 

My hopes are for the availability of Oriental medicine and not

limited to any of its players or industries. I would like to

drink the teas of the world.

 

Respectfully and gratefully,

Emmanuel Segmen

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I agree with you Benjamin, people go to MD's have acupuncture, it doesn't

help and then say it's not a good/valid modality. I am already out there

preaching, was this person 'board certified' an expression lay people and

doctors both understand and then I explain the difference between these

short courses vs. real training. I'm only one person but the fact that I'm a

doctor hopefully holds some weight and I have friends who refer out and I am

telling them 'make sure you refer to.' which is why I want to gather a list

of names to refer to. I know when I get to school I will get names and I

have some names from friends who trained in NY but you can never have too

many names since people live all over.

 

 

 

 

 

I just told my brother today in email my plans, I haven't heard back yet.

I'm third generation western medicine. I'm going to take some abuse I know.

I'm waiting for my father's reaction! But I believe what I believe!

 

 

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Benjamin

Hawes, L.Ac.

Friday, October 12, 2007 1:52 PM

Chinese Medicine

Re:MD-bashing & the politics of integrating TCM in national

healthcare

 

 

 

I must respectfully disagree here. The comparison to accepted medical

procedures performed by non-specialists is not accurate, simply because

acupuncture is NOT an accepted procedure. If we allow it to be performed

in a way that ensures a lower chance of success (i.e. by amateurs), then

this will hurt acupuncture's acceptance into the healthcare mainstream.

Perhaps once acupuncture has become accepted as actually efficacious for

all the conditions for which we employ it successfully in our own

clinics, THEN we can allow it to become more diffuse in the healthcare

world because people will not confuse incompetence with lack of efficacy

across the board for the procedure itself. But right now, we aren't even

close to being there.

-Ben Hawes, L.Ac.

 

MD-bashing & the politics of integrating TCM in national

healthcare

<Chinese Medicine/message/27063;_y

lc=X3oDMTJyNnMwajE2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzk0OTU5NzcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwO

DE0BG1zZ0lkAzI3MDYzBHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzExOTIwOTEyMTc->

 

Posted by: " Emmanuel Segmen " susegmen

<susegmen%40ix.netcom.com>

<susegmen <susegmen%40ix.netcom.com>

?Subject=%20Re%3AMD-bashing%20%26%20the%20politics%20of%20integrating%20TCM%

20in%20national%20healthcare>

emmanuelsegmen <http://profiles./emmanuelsegmen>

 

Wed Oct 10, 2007 9:58 pm (PST)

 

Phil and All,

 

I would have to join you, Phil, in your perspective on this. I

feel there is little threat to the AP/OM community from MDs

embracing any aspect of Chinese medicine in their professional

duties. Quite the opposite. Oriental medicine's ability to seep

into a wide variety of venues in Western cultures will raise all

ships invested in this work. I would never stand its way.

 

There are many MDs in America performing medical procedures

without the board certification for the most advanced training

in that particular area of treatment. If you want the most

advanced treatment, you go to the specialist who has board

certification. If your primary care physician feels confident

about doing it and you have confidence in him or her, then move

forward that person. I do much the same when I seek the advice

of any professional in any field whatsoever for myself or for

others. I go to the highly qualified professor for the toughest

issues. I get general confirmations from the general

practitioner colleagues.

 

The bottom line for me I sense is much the same as it is for

you. I'd like to see Oriental medicine become so accessible that

if feels as though it belongs to my culture. Is English

breakfast tea not Chinese or Indian? I hope Oriental medicine

becomes that much a part of my own culture. I would not get in

the way of anyone fighting for their " perceived " piece of turf

any more than I would get in the way of a family argument. I

think everyone has to go through this, and some will never be

done with it. I think the arguments for fighting such a turf war

are absolutely genuine and authentic, even developmentally

necessary.

 

So the war itself will never be done. Each generation will take

it to the next step. Perhaps at some distant future step in some

future integrated culture the Oriental medical practitioner as

well as the allopathic surgeon will have to start off with the

same " health care " doctorate first before practicing the arts

specific to Oriental medicine or allopathy. They will both have

to pass through the same healthcare " doctorate " portal in order

to practice in the acute care facilities of that future culture.

Then and only then can they become, " interns " , and then

" residents " and later board certified. I would be surprised if

that seemed fair to anyone here but me.

 

My hopes are for the availability of Oriental medicine and not

limited to any of its players or industries. I would like to

drink the teas of the world.

 

Respectfully and gratefully,

Emmanuel Segmen

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Benjamin,

 

As noted in my post, I don't dispute your thesis despite being different in

emphasis from my own. I noted that professional development is genuine,

authentic and developmentally necessary. I further note that in addition to

your thesis that irrelevant of what might confuse people regarding efficacy, you

and I have access to efficacious treatment in CM and we know the difference

between efficacy and inadequacy. We both live and work professionally in the

Western world. CM has done some " seeping " in to the our world. For me this was

Phil's point as well as my own.

 

Please carry on the war as you perceive it. And know that I'm vividly cheering

for you ... and that I'm cheering even more loudly for Chinese medicine itself.

 

I'm also suggesting that reality is more surprising than fiction or any of our

best intentions. I'm really suggesting that if we " get out of the way " of CM it

might seep even more quickly into our world. We'd have to overlook our own

hopes, fears and personal investments to genuinely cheer for CM's success over

and above our own. I'm only pointing out that there are moments when I do this.

I, of course, would never recommend it. Nor would I stop cheering for those who

are dead set against it. You go!

 

Respectfully,

Emmanuel Segmen

 

 

[Guest guest]

Emmanuel:

 

Respectfully, I must say: huh?

I guess I am not clear on the concept of " getting out of the way of CM "

since when CM is fraudulently, incompetently performed by individuals

who don't even believe in what they are doing, is that CM?

Let me put it this way: if I went around performing " surgery " on people,

and presented myself as adequately trained with only a few hundred hours

of training, would the results that followed damage just me or is it

possible that it would hurt confidence in the surgical profession in

general as well? In other words, when incompetence is officially

sanctioned, it takes it out of the realm of individual consequence and

damages the profession itself. That's why there are established levels

of training, competency, etc. I can't even believe I have to argue in

favor of this. It's the most basic thing in our profession: *first, do

no harm.* When we allow people do harm others in our name by shrugging

it off as " CM doing its thing, " WE are responsible for the damage that

results, all of us that practice acupuncture legitimately, if we do

nothing to stop it. This means writing articles, LTE's, educating our

patients, and telling our schools and professional organizations that

they get no money from us until they commit themselves to opposing

physician-led fraud and incompetence in acupuncture.

I am sorry if I can't share your sunny optimism. It reeks of defeat.

 

Sincerely,

Ben Hawes, L.Ac.

 

 

MD-bashing & the politics of integrating TCM in national

healthcare

<Chinese Medicine/message/27141;_ylc=X\

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0lkAzI3MTQxBHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzExOTI0MzU5MDk->

 

 

 

Posted by: " Emmanuel Segmen " susegmen

<susegmen?Subject=%20Re%3AMD-bashing%20%26%20the%20politics\

%20of%20integrating%20TCM%20in%20national%20healthcare>

emmanuelsegmen <http://profiles./emmanuelsegmen>

 

 

Sun Oct 14, 2007 12:43 pm (PST)

 

Hi Benjamin,

 

As noted in my post, I don't dispute your thesis despite being

different in emphasis from my own. I noted that professional

development is genuine, authentic and developmentally necessary. I

further note that in addition to your thesis that irrelevant of what

might confuse people regarding efficacy, you and I have access to

efficacious treatment in CM and we know the difference between

efficacy and inadequacy. We both live and work professionally in the

Western world. CM has done some " seeping " in to the our world. For

me this was Phil's point as well as my own.

 

Please carry on the war as you perceive it. And know that I'm

vividly cheering for you ... and that I'm cheering even more loudly

for Chinese medicine itself.

 

I'm also suggesting that reality is more surprising than fiction or

any of our best intentions. I'm really suggesting that if we " get

out of the way " of CM it might seep even more quickly into our

world. We'd have to overlook our own hopes, fears and personal

investments to genuinely cheer for CM's success over and above our

own. I'm only pointing out that there are moments when I do this. I,

of course, would never recommend it. Nor would I stop cheering for

those who are dead set against it. You go!

 

Respectfully,

Emmanuel Segmen