eye-to-eye!

[Guest guest]

Hello group!

Don't know if it's the done thing here but i would like to post the

following case history and receive some feedback on it. Particularly

your ideas on Diagnosis/points/patents. I have been treating the

person involved for some time now to no great relief.

 

 

A 65yr old female came to my clinic from her doctor complaining of dry

and irritated eyes which were worse for eating any kind of oils

including nuts, seeds, meats and the likes as well as anything she

applied to the skin that was oil based. She reported no other symptoms

of note and had undergone blood and GB function tests. These were all

inconclusive. her doctor prescribed her a progesterone cream as her

hormones were apparently low and further blood tests have revealed

toxicity mainly of arsenic and tin.

 

A TCM consultation showed she had dry, itchy, sandy, irritated eyes

worse for oily foods and products ingested or applied to the skin.

She had dry hair, dry skin and dry brittle ridged nails. She was under

weight and appeared somewhat emaciated with poor muscle tone on the

upper limbs especially. She complained of constipation with dry stools

difficult to pass and when she did pass them, she felt the evacuation

was incomplete. She woke most nights due to overheating although there

was no sweating and when she woke in the morning she had a dry throat

and mouth. Her urine tends to be yellow and strong smelling. Her eyes

had small red veins on occasion and when bad had a very slightly

muddy/yellow appearance but with good shen. Every morning her nose was

blocked with thick yellow phlegm that cleared after being up for a

while and recently her lips have been dry and a little peeled. Her

complexion was pale/sallow with small red blotches scattered over her

cheeks. When her symptoms were worse she felt down and despaired of

ever looking healthy again. She has aged considerably over the course

of this illness which, she recalls has gradually gotten worse over 10

years.She had no other symptoms whatsoever although upon probing she

reported hepatitis at a young age and a poor relationship with her

parents, particularly her father. her periods were always painless but

heavy with generally very red blood.

 

Her pulse was around 68/min, slow and very slightly wiry choppy.

Overall though it seemed somewhat weak.

Her Tonge had a very thin white coat, getting thinner, looked dry and

had a bluish-purple tinge throughout the body.

 

My diagnosis has been Kidney Yin and yang def. with pred.yin def. and

liver yin and blood def. this has in turn developed into blood and qi

stasis.

 

I have tried Liv3 Kid3 Sp6 St36 Ren12 GB37 BL2 Ren4 Liv 8 as main

points in varying combination also with Sp9 Sp10 BL23 BL18 BL17.

 

She has also been in Er chen wan initially, followed bu Ming mu di

huang wan with Xiao yao san and then went on to xiao yao san and ming

mu. None of these helped at all and when i changed to Chai hu shu gan

wan she reported marked improvement. However, this was short lived and

now she is as was.

 

Please help as she is running out of money and hope and i don't know

what is really happening. I would be hugely grateful for any support

and advice. I ahve more cases like this if anyone wants them!

It is so good to be in touch with other practitioners!

& #22825; & #22320; & #22312; & #20154; & #21147; & #20250; & #21512; & #12290;

[Guest guest]

Have you considered blood stagnation (you mention a blue tongue)?Mike W. Bowser,

L Ac

 

 

: corotcm:

Thu, 4 Oct 2007 04:58:11 +0000eye-to-eye!

 

 

 

 

Hello group!Don't know if it's the done thing here but i would like to post

thefollowing case history and receive some feedback on it. Particularlyyour

ideas on Diagnosis/points/patents. I have been treating theperson involved for

some time now to no great relief.A 65yr old female came to my clinic from her

doctor complaining of dryand irritated eyes which were worse for eating any kind

of oilsincluding nuts, seeds, meats and the likes as well as anything sheapplied

to the skin that was oil based. She reported no other symptomsof note and had

undergone blood and GB function tests. These were allinconclusive. her doctor

prescribed her a progesterone cream as herhormones were apparently low and

further blood tests have revealedtoxicity mainly of arsenic and tin. A TCM

consultation showed she had dry, itchy, sandy, irritated eyesworse for oily

foods and products ingested or applied to the skin.She had dry hair, dry skin

and dry brittle ridged nails. She was underweight and appeared somewhat

emaciated with poor muscle tone on theupper limbs especially. She complained of

constipation with dry stoolsdifficult to pass and when she did pass them, she

felt the evacuationwas incomplete. She woke most nights due to overheating

although therewas no sweating and when she woke in the morning she had a dry

throatand mouth. Her urine tends to be yellow and strong smelling. Her eyeshad

small red veins on occasion and when bad had a very slightlymuddy/yellow

appearance but with good shen. Every morning her nose wasblocked with thick

yellow phlegm that cleared after being up for awhile and recently her lips have

been dry and a little peeled. Hercomplexion was pale/sallow with small red

blotches scattered over hercheeks. When her symptoms were worse she felt down

and despaired ofever looking healthy again. She has aged considerably over the

courseof this illness which, she recalls has gradually gotten worse over

10years.She had no other symptoms whatsoever although upon probing shereported

hepatitis at a young age and a poor relationship with herparents, particularly

her father. her periods were always painless butheavy with generally very red

blood.Her pulse was around 68/min, slow and very slightly wiry choppy.Overall

though it seemed somewhat weak.Her Tonge had a very thin white coat, getting

thinner, looked dry andhad a bluish-purple tinge throughout the body.My

diagnosis has been Kidney Yin and yang def. with pred.yin def. andliver yin and

blood def. this has in turn developed into blood and qistasis.I have tried Liv3

Kid3 Sp6 St36 Ren12 GB37 BL2 Ren4 Liv 8 as mainpoints in varying combination

also with Sp9 Sp10 BL23 BL18 BL17.She has also been in Er chen wan initially,

followed bu Ming mu dihuang wan with Xiao yao san and then went on to xiao yao

san and mingmu. None of these helped at all and when i changed to Chai hu shu

ganwan she reported marked improvement. However, this was short lived andnow she

is as was.Please help as she is running out of money and hope and i don't

knowwhat is really happening. I would be hugely grateful for any supportand

advice. I ahve more cases like this if anyone wants them! It is so good to be in

touch with other

practitioners! & #22825; & #22320; & #22312; & #20154; & #21147; & #20250; & #21512; & #12290;

 

 

 

 

 

 

_______________

Boo! Scare away worms, viruses and so much more! Try Windows Live OneCare!

http://onecare.live.com/standard/en-us/purchase/trial.aspx?s_cid=wl_hotmailnews

 

 

[Guest guest]

Mike thanks for this reply, You are the first and only so far! I have

recently put her on to Chai Hu Shu Gan Wan because of the obvious

liver involvement and due to the blue tongue conldued the same as you.

She showed temporary improvement on it but then reverted to very bad!

I dont know where to go from here other than relinquish her from my

care instead of giving TCM a bad name!

Thanks for your advice though. By the way, where might you look for

the blood stagnation when she has no pain, fullness, masses or any of

the usual symptoms?

many thanks Dan

 

Chinese Medicine , mike Bowser

<naturaldoc1 wrote:

>

> Have you considered blood stagnation (you mention a blue

tongue)?Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

>

>

> : corotcm: Thu, 4 Oct 2007

04:58:11 +0000eye-to-eye!

>

>

>

>

> Hello group!Don't know if it's the done thing here but i would like

to post thefollowing case history and receive some feedback on it.

Particularlyyour ideas on Diagnosis/points/patents. I have been

treating theperson involved for some time now to no great relief.A

65yr old female came to my clinic from her doctor complaining of

dryand irritated eyes which were worse for eating any kind of

oilsincluding nuts, seeds, meats and the likes as well as anything

sheapplied to the skin that was oil based. She reported no other

symptomsof note and had undergone blood and GB function tests. These

were allinconclusive. her doctor prescribed her a progesterone cream

as herhormones were apparently low and further blood tests have

revealedtoxicity mainly of arsenic and tin. A TCM consultation showed

she had dry, itchy, sandy, irritated eyesworse for oily foods and

products ingested or applied to the skin.She had dry hair, dry skin

and dry brittle ridged nails. She was underweight and appeared

somewhat emaciated with poor muscle tone on theupper limbs especially.

She complained of constipation with dry stoolsdifficult to pass and

when she did pass them, she felt the evacuationwas incomplete. She

woke most nights due to overheating although therewas no sweating and

when she woke in the morning she had a dry throatand mouth. Her urine

tends to be yellow and strong smelling. Her eyeshad small red veins on

occasion and when bad had a very slightlymuddy/yellow appearance but

with good shen. Every morning her nose wasblocked with thick yellow

phlegm that cleared after being up for awhile and recently her lips

have been dry and a little peeled. Hercomplexion was pale/sallow with

small red blotches scattered over hercheeks. When her symptoms were

worse she felt down and despaired ofever looking healthy again. She

has aged considerably over the courseof this illness which, she

recalls has gradually gotten worse over 10years.She had no other

symptoms whatsoever although upon probing shereported hepatitis at a

young age and a poor relationship with herparents, particularly her

father. her periods were always painless butheavy with generally very

red blood.Her pulse was around 68/min, slow and very slightly wiry

choppy.Overall though it seemed somewhat weak.Her Tonge had a very

thin white coat, getting thinner, looked dry andhad a bluish-purple

tinge throughout the body.My diagnosis has been Kidney Yin and yang

def. with pred.yin def. andliver yin and blood def. this has in turn

developed into blood and qistasis.I have tried Liv3 Kid3 Sp6 St36

Ren12 GB37 BL2 Ren4 Liv 8 as mainpoints in varying combination also

with Sp9 Sp10 BL23 BL18 BL17.She has also been in Er chen wan

initially, followed bu Ming mu dihuang wan with Xiao yao san and then

went on to xiao yao san and mingmu. None of these helped at all and

when i changed to Chai hu shu ganwan she reported marked improvement.

However, this was short lived andnow she is as was.Please help as she

is running out of money and hope and i don't knowwhat is really

happening. I would be hugely grateful for any supportand advice. I

ahve more cases like this if anyone wants them! It is so good to be in

touch with other

practitioners! & #22825; & #22320; & #22312; & #20154; & #21147; & #20250; & #21512; & #12290;

 

_______________

> Boo! Scare away worms, viruses and so much more! Try Windows Live

OneCare!

>

http://onecare.live.com/standard/en-us/purchase/trial.aspx?s_cid=wl_hotmailnews

>

>

[Guest guest]

If you have Liv blood deficiency + Liv Yin def why do not try Si Wu Tang and

Xiao Yao san or Liu Wei Di Huang wan (may be even Yi Guan Jian)?

 

Yuri

 

?

 

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[Guest guest]

Dan,

 

I follow a Japanese acupuncture protocol, ala Kiiko Matsumoto, wherein the lower

abdomen tends to show painful areas on palpation (limbs tend to show darker

brown discoloration). You might see some varicosities and dryness along with

very large and distended sublingual veins (look under her tongue). I have found

that getting blood to move is paramount. Pts that she lists include: Liver 4

(left side due to blood coming up from leg to hepatic portal vein also on the

same side), Lung 5 (left). She does mention treating inner thigh tension that

can also block blood flow by adding in local needles along inguinal ligament

after using the above pts. Now if this problem is due to a swollen liver (she

calls it a fatty liver) then we need to look at St 25 (left) and Liver 13

(right). These are called for when a patient has pain on palpation with deep

inhalation and you press upper under the right rib cage checking several places.

BTW, if the patient has large aortic pulsations, you will need more treatments

and will need to add in St 24 (left). I am thinking more along this last path as

this person also had a history of hepatitis, right?

 

Pick up a copy of Kiiko's text if you are interested in this type of

acupuncture.

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

 

 

: corotcm:

Sun, 7 Oct 2007 10:10:17 +0000Re: eye-to-eye!

 

 

 

 

Mike thanks for this reply, You are the first and only so far! I haverecently

put her on to Chai Hu Shu Gan Wan because of the obviousliver involvement and

due to the blue tongue conldued the same as you.She showed temporary improvement

on it but then reverted to very bad!I dont know where to go from here other than

relinquish her from mycare instead of giving TCM a bad name!Thanks for your

advice though. By the way, where might you look forthe blood stagnation when she

has no pain, fullness, masses or any ofthe usual symptoms?many thanks Dan--- In

Chinese Medicine , mike Bowser<naturaldoc1

wrote:>> Have you considered blood stagnation (you mention a bluetongue)?Mike W.

Bowser, L Ac> > > : corotcm: Thu, 4 Oct

200704:58:11 +0000eye-to-eye!> > > > > Hello group!Don't know if

it's the done thing here but i would liketo post thefollowing case history and

receive some feedback on it.Particularlyyour ideas on Diagnosis/points/patents.

I have beentreating theperson involved for some time now to no great

relief.A65yr old female came to my clinic from her doctor complaining ofdryand

irritated eyes which were worse for eating any kind ofoilsincluding nuts, seeds,

meats and the likes as well as anythingsheapplied to the skin that was oil

based. She reported no othersymptomsof note and had undergone blood and GB

function tests. Thesewere allinconclusive. her doctor prescribed her a

progesterone creamas herhormones were apparently low and further blood tests

haverevealedtoxicity mainly of arsenic and tin. A TCM consultation showedshe had

dry, itchy, sandy, irritated eyesworse for oily foods andproducts ingested or

applied to the skin.She had dry hair, dry skinand dry brittle ridged nails. She

was underweight and appearedsomewhat emaciated with poor muscle tone on theupper

limbs especially.She complained of constipation with dry stoolsdifficult to pass

andwhen she did pass them, she felt the evacuationwas incomplete. Shewoke most

nights due to overheating although therewas no sweating andwhen she woke in the

morning she had a dry throatand mouth. Her urinetends to be yellow and strong

smelling. Her eyeshad small red veins onoccasion and when bad had a very

slightlymuddy/yellow appearance butwith good shen. Every morning her nose

wasblocked with thick yellowphlegm that cleared after being up for awhile and

recently her lipshave been dry and a little peeled. Hercomplexion was

pale/sallow withsmall red blotches scattered over hercheeks. When her symptoms

wereworse she felt down and despaired ofever looking healthy again. Shehas aged

considerably over the courseof this illness which, sherecalls has gradually

gotten worse over 10years.She had no othersymptoms whatsoever although upon

probing shereported hepatitis at ayoung age and a poor relationship with

herparents, particularly herfather. her periods were always painless butheavy

with generally veryred blood.Her pulse was around 68/min, slow and very slightly

wirychoppy.Overall though it seemed somewhat weak.Her Tonge had a verythin white

coat, getting thinner, looked dry andhad a bluish-purpletinge throughout the

body.My diagnosis has been Kidney Yin and yangdef. with pred.yin def. andliver

yin and blood def. this has in turndeveloped into blood and qistasis.I have

tried Liv3 Kid3 Sp6 St36Ren12 GB37 BL2 Ren4 Liv 8 as mainpoints in varying

combination alsowith Sp9 Sp10 BL23 BL18 BL17.She has also been in Er chen

waninitially, followed bu Ming mu dihuang wan with Xiao yao san and thenwent on

to xiao yao san and mingmu. None of these helped at all andwhen i changed to

Chai hu shu ganwan she reported marked improvement.However, this was short lived

andnow she is as was.Please help as sheis running out of money and hope and i

don't knowwhat is reallyhappening. I would be hugely grateful for any supportand

advice. Iahve more cases like this if anyone wants them! It is so good to be

intouch with

otherpractitioners! & #22825; & #22320; & #22312; & #20154; & #21147; & #20250; & #21512; & #122\

90;> > > > > > > ________>

Boo! Scare away worms, viruses and so much more! Try Windows

LiveOneCare!>http://onecare.live.com/standard/en-us/purchase/trial.aspx?s_cid=wl\

_hotmailnews> >

[Guest guest]

> By the way, where might you look for the blood stagnation when she has no

> pain, fullness, masses or any of the usual symptoms?

>

No clots in the blood during menstruation?

 

Artemis

[Guest guest]

Hello again,

There was no menstrual history of clots and she i way post menopausal.

I'm really interested on the other replies! I have tried XIao Yao San

and Liu Wei DI' was my next port of call. Kiiko's thoughts will be

looked at too. Anything goes right now!

Thanks again everyone. Dan

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " Artemis Papert "

<artemis.artemis wrote:

>

> > By the way, where might you look for the blood stagnation when she

has no

> > pain, fullness, masses or any of the usual symptoms?

> >

> No clots in the blood during menstruation?

>

> Artemis

>

[Guest guest]

Dan,

 

Please keep in mind that Kiiko uses abdominal palpation for diagnosis and

treatment. Along these lines

you might also look at Miki Shima, who has some DVD on herbs for abdominal

confirmations. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

 

 

: corotcm:

Mon, 8 Oct 2007 00:32:45 +0000Re: eye-to-eye!

 

 

 

 

Hello again,There was no menstrual history of clots and she i way post

menopausal.I'm really interested on the other replies! I have tried XIao Yao

Sanand Liu Wei DI' was my next port of call. Kiiko's thoughts will belooked at

too. Anything goes right now!Thanks again everyone. Dan--- In

Chinese Medicine , " Artemis

Papert " <artemis.artemis wrote:>> > By the way, where might you look for the

blood stagnation when shehas no > > pain, fullness, masses or any of the usual

symptoms?> >> No clots in the blood during menstruation?> > Artemis>

 

 

 

 

 

 

_______________

Boo! Scare away worms, viruses and so much more! Try Windows Live OneCare!

http://onecare.live.com/standard/en-us/purchase/trial.aspx?s_cid=wl_hotmailnews