Guest guest Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 Dear group I would really like your input, especially from anyone specializing in Oncology. I run a low cost public clinic with two other pracitioners, and one of the patients who has been coming in for a while has just been diagnosed with breast cancer and really wants to save her breasts, which sincer her mother and sister have already had it I have advised against. It is localized in the ducts. She first became aware of swelling and bleeding from her nipple quite a while ago, but due to insurance reasons waited to see a western docter until about 3 weeks ago. Apparently the oncologists are stumped at what kind of cancer, she is waiting for more test results. The cancer has not moved outside of the ducts.Except she has just had squamous cell carconoma crop and have removed in the last two weeks. My question is related to herbs I have been discussing it with my co-worker which has left me more at a loss. She wants to not proscribe anything to be safe becouse she is worried about the cancer spreading from moving herbs or estragenic herbs. I am thinking wouldn't it be advisable to at least clear some heat and toxins to slow things down. I have Li peiwens book, in addition to reading many other articles, and advice from some of you that although some herbs are estrogenic it is a completely different type of estrogen that does not promote cancer. So this other acupuncturist is completely against using any dang gui, huang qi, and many other herbs that are in traditional anti-cancer formulas, even ones promoted in Bob Flaws article Chinese herbal medicine and estrogen-dependent tumors. She is claiming that all of that info is outdated and one must proscribe to the Chen and Chen book. It is over two thousand years worth of study, could it be complete bs and what about all of the previous cancer patients helped by these formulas. I am feeling very conflicted and would love some input. Thank you, Petra Buchanan. As it stands we are just doing acupuncture and not proscribing herbs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 I was taught that Acupuncture ishould never be used in cancer treatment. After western diagnosis, tests and western treatment Acupuncture can be used in the recovery process. I would not suggest/give herbs, she needs to see good western Dr. Maria Kuriloff _____ Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of petrabuchanan Wednesday, October 03, 2007 7:45 PM Chinese Medicine Cancer/especially of the breast Dear group I would really like your input, especially from anyone specializing in Oncology. I run a low cost public clinic with two other pracitioners, and one of the patients who has been coming in for a while has just been diagnosed with breast cancer and really wants to save her breasts, which sincer her mother and sister have already had it I have advised against. It is localized in the ducts. She first became aware of swelling and bleeding from her nipple quite a while ago, but due to insurance reasons waited to see a western docter until about 3 weeks ago. Apparently the oncologists are stumped at what kind of cancer, she is waiting for more test results. The cancer has not moved outside of the ducts.Except she has just had squamous cell carconoma crop and have removed in the last two weeks. My question is related to herbs I have been discussing it with my co-worker which has left me more at a loss. She wants to not proscribe anything to be safe becouse she is worried about the cancer spreading from moving herbs or estragenic herbs. I am thinking wouldn't it be advisable to at least clear some heat and toxins to slow things down. I have Li peiwens book, in addition to reading many other articles, and advice from some of you that although some herbs are estrogenic it is a completely different type of estrogen that does not promote cancer. So this other acupuncturist is completely against using any dang gui, huang qi, and many other herbs that are in traditional anti-cancer formulas, even ones promoted in Bob Flaws article Chinese herbal medicine and estrogen-dependent tumors. She is claiming that all of that info is outdated and one must proscribe to the Chen and Chen book. It is over two thousand years worth of study, could it be complete bs and what about all of the previous cancer patients helped by these formulas. I am feeling very conflicted and would love some input. Thank you, Petra Buchanan. As it stands we are just doing acupuncture and not proscribing herbs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 She is seeing a doctor and waiting for the results. I have definitely pushed her to be aggressive with western medicine. And thank you for your input. --- Ron & Maria Kuriloff <rmkuriloff wrote: > I was taught that Acupuncture ishould never be used > in cancer treatment. > After western diagnosis, tests and western treatment > Acupuncture can be used > in the recovery process. > > I would not suggest/give herbs, she needs to see > good western Dr. > > Maria Kuriloff > > _____ > > Chinese Medicine > Chinese Medicine > On Behalf Of > petrabuchanan > Wednesday, October 03, 2007 7:45 PM > Chinese Medicine > Cancer/especially of the breast > > > > Dear group I would really like your input, > especially from anyone > specializing in Oncology. I run a low cost public > clinic with two > other pracitioners, and one of the patients who has > been coming in for > a while has just been diagnosed with breast cancer > and really wants to > save her breasts, which sincer her mother and sister > have already had > it I have advised against. It is localized in the > ducts. She first > became aware of swelling and bleeding from her > nipple quite a while > ago, but due to insurance reasons waited to see a > western docter until > about 3 weeks ago. Apparently the oncologists are > stumped at what kind > of cancer, she is waiting for more test results. The > cancer has not > moved outside of the ducts.Except she has just had > squamous cell > carconoma crop and have removed in the last two > weeks. My question is > related to herbs I have been discussing it with my > co-worker which has > left me more at a loss. She wants to not proscribe > anything to be safe > becouse she is worried about the cancer spreading > from moving herbs or > estragenic herbs. I am thinking wouldn't it be > advisable to at least > clear some heat and toxins to slow things down. I > have Li peiwens > book, in addition to reading many other articles, > and advice from some > of you that although some herbs are estrogenic it is > a completely > different type of estrogen that does not promote > cancer. So this other > acupuncturist is completely against using any dang > gui, huang qi, and > many other herbs that are in traditional anti-cancer > formulas, even > ones promoted in Bob Flaws article Chinese herbal > medicine and > estrogen-dependent tumors. She is claiming that all > of that info is > outdated and one must proscribe to the Chen and Chen > book. It is over > two thousand years worth of study, could it be > complete bs and what > about all of the previous cancer patients helped by > these formulas. I > am feeling very conflicted and would love some > input. Thank you, Petra > Buchanan. As it stands we are just doing acupuncture > and not > proscribing herbs. [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > ______________________________\ ____ oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. http://mobile./mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 I do not treat cancer, so I can't share personal experience. However, I was at a talk by a Honso (traditional Kampo herbs) representative who mentioned that Shi Quan Da Bu Tang (Juzen-taiho-to in Japanese) had actually been shown to have an inhibitory effect on cancer growth. How interesting, since it contains herbs like Dang Gui, and is a tonifying formula! I'm not sure if this is the study he was referencing, but I found this link of a study related to endometrial cancer: http://carcin.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/22/4/587 One of the conclusions is: " These results suggest that Juzen-taiho-to has an anti-carcinogenic effect, possibly via suppression of estrogen-related events. " Chinese Medicine petrabuchanan Wed, 3 Oct 2007 23:44:43 +0000 Cancer/especially of the breast Dear group I would really like your input, especially from anyone specializing in Oncology. I run a low cost public clinic with two other pracitioners, and one of the patients who has been coming in for a while has just been diagnosed with breast cancer and really wants to save her breasts, which sincer her mother and sister have already had it I have advised against. It is localized in the ducts. She first became aware of swelling and bleeding from her nipple quite a while ago, but due to insurance reasons waited to see a western docter until about 3 weeks ago. Apparently the oncologists are stumped at what kind of cancer, she is waiting for more test results. The cancer has not moved outside of the ducts.Except she has just had squamous cell carconoma crop and have removed in the last two weeks. My question is related to herbs I have been discussing it with my co-worker which has left me more at a loss. She wants to not proscribe anything to be safe becouse she is worried about the cancer spreading from moving herbs or estragenic herbs. I am thinking wouldn't it be advisable to at least clear some heat and toxins to slow things down. I have Li peiwens book, in addition to reading many other articles, and advice from some of you that although some herbs are estrogenic it is a completely different type of estrogen that does not promote cancer. So this other acupuncturist is completely against using any dang gui, huang qi, and many other herbs that are in traditional anti-cancer formulas, even ones promoted in Bob Flaws article Chinese herbal medicine and estrogen-dependent tumors. She is claiming that all of that info is outdated and one must proscribe to the Chen and Chen book. It is over two thousand years worth of study, could it be complete bs and what about all of the previous cancer patients helped by these formulas. I am feeling very conflicted and would love some input. Thank you, Petra Buchanan. As it stands we are just doing acupuncture and not proscribing herbs. _______________ Boo! Scare away worms, viruses and so much more! Try Windows Live OneCare! http://onecare.live.com/standard/en-us/purchase/trial.aspx?s_cid=wl_hotmailnews Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 Chinese Medicine , Petra Buchanan <petrabuchanan wrote: > > She is seeing a doctor and waiting for the results. I > have definitely pushed her to be aggressive with > western medicine. And thank you for your input. > --- Ron & Maria Kuriloff <rmkuriloff > wrote: > > > I was taught that Acupuncture ishould never be used > > in cancer treatment. > > After western diagnosis, tests and western treatment > > Acupuncture can be used > > in the recovery process. > > > > I would not suggest/give herbs, she needs to see > > good western Dr. > > > > Maria Kuriloff > > > > _____ > > > > Chinese Medicine > > > Chinese Medicine > > On Behalf Of > > petrabuchanan > > Wednesday, October 03, 2007 7:45 PM > > Chinese Medicine > > Cancer/especially of the breast > > > > > > > > Dear group I would really like your input, > > especially from anyone > > specializing in Oncology. I run a low cost public > > clinic with two > > other pracitioners, and one of the patients who has > > been coming in for > > a while has just been diagnosed with breast cancer > > and really wants to > > save her breasts, which sincer her mother and sister > > have already had > > it I have advised against. It is localized in the > > ducts. She first > > became aware of swelling and bleeding from her > > nipple quite a while > > ago, but due to insurance reasons waited to see a > > western docter until > > about 3 weeks ago. Apparently the oncologists are > > stumped at what kind > > of cancer, she is waiting for more test results. The > > cancer has not > > moved outside of the ducts.Except she has just had > > squamous cell > > carconoma crop and have removed in the last two > > weeks. My question is > > related to herbs I have been discussing it with my > > co-worker which has > > left me more at a loss. She wants to not proscribe > > anything to be safe > > becouse she is worried about the cancer spreading > > from moving herbs or > > estragenic herbs. I am thinking wouldn't it be > > advisable to at least > > clear some heat and toxins to slow things down. I > > have Li peiwens > > book, in addition to reading many other articles, > > and advice from some > > of you that although some herbs are estrogenic it is > > a completely > > different type of estrogen that does not promote > > cancer. So this other > > acupuncturist is completely against using any dang > > gui, huang qi, and > > many other herbs that are in traditional anti-cancer > > formulas, even > > ones promoted in Bob Flaws article Chinese herbal > > medicine and > > estrogen-dependent tumors. She is claiming that all > > of that info is > > outdated and one must proscribe to the Chen and Chen > > book. It is over > > two thousand years worth of study, could it be > > complete bs and what > > about all of the previous cancer patients helped by > > these formulas. I > > am feeling very conflicted and would love some > > input. Thank you, Petra > > Buchanan. As it stands we are just doing acupuncture > > and not > > proscribing herbs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > > removed] > > > > > > > > > ______________________________\ ____ > oneSearch: Finally, mobile search > that gives answers, not web links. > http://mobile./mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC > Hello Petra, From my training and studies so far (yes i am the novice who wrote " struggles " ) it would seem to me that acupuncture is definitely of benefit to her as could herbs be. It seems that waiting for test results is good, but i agree, clearing heat and toxins would do her well. Is it not right to treat what you see? Let's not forget the holistic/homeostatic tendency shown in acupuncture. best wishes for you and your patient.Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 That is what I have learned from my chinese teachers but now there is apparently a ton of new research according to this woman I work with so I want to do as much research as possible before doing anything. Thank you for your input. --- corotcm <corotcm wrote: > Chinese Medicine , > Petra Buchanan > <petrabuchanan wrote: > > > > She is seeing a doctor and waiting for the > results. I > > have definitely pushed her to be aggressive with > > western medicine. And thank you for your input. > > --- Ron & Maria Kuriloff <rmkuriloff > > wrote: > > > > > I was taught that Acupuncture ishould never be > used > > > in cancer treatment. > > > After western diagnosis, tests and western > treatment > > > Acupuncture can be used > > > in the recovery process. > > > > > > I would not suggest/give herbs, she needs to see > > > good western Dr. > > > > > > Maria Kuriloff > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine > > > > > > Chinese Medicine > > > On Behalf Of > > > petrabuchanan > > > Wednesday, October 03, 2007 7:45 PM > > > Chinese Medicine > > > Cancer/especially of the breast > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear group I would really like your input, > > > especially from anyone > > > specializing in Oncology. I run a low cost > public > > > clinic with two > > > other pracitioners, and one of the patients who > has > > > been coming in for > > > a while has just been diagnosed with breast > cancer > > > and really wants to > > > save her breasts, which sincer her mother and > sister > > > have already had > > > it I have advised against. It is localized in > the > > > ducts. She first > > > became aware of swelling and bleeding from her > > > nipple quite a while > > > ago, but due to insurance reasons waited to see > a > > > western docter until > > > about 3 weeks ago. Apparently the oncologists > are > > > stumped at what kind > > > of cancer, she is waiting for more test results. > The > > > cancer has not > > > moved outside of the ducts.Except she has just > had > > > squamous cell > > > carconoma crop and have removed in the last two > > > weeks. My question is > > > related to herbs I have been discussing it with > my > > > co-worker which has > > > left me more at a loss. She wants to not > proscribe > > > anything to be safe > > > becouse she is worried about the cancer > spreading > > > from moving herbs or > > > estragenic herbs. I am thinking wouldn't it be > > > advisable to at least > > > clear some heat and toxins to slow things down. > I > > > have Li peiwens > > > book, in addition to reading many other > articles, > > > and advice from some > > > of you that although some herbs are estrogenic > it is > > > a completely > > > different type of estrogen that does not promote > > > cancer. So this other > > > acupuncturist is completely against using any > dang > > > gui, huang qi, and > > > many other herbs that are in traditional > anti-cancer > > > formulas, even > > > ones promoted in Bob Flaws article Chinese > herbal > > > medicine and > > > estrogen-dependent tumors. She is claiming that > all > > > of that info is > > > outdated and one must proscribe to the Chen and > Chen > > > book. It is over > > > two thousand years worth of study, could it be > > > complete bs and what > > > about all of the previous cancer patients helped > by > > > these formulas. I > > > am feeling very conflicted and would love some > > > input. Thank you, Petra > > > Buchanan. As it stands we are just doing > acupuncture > > > and not > > > proscribing herbs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > > > removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________\ ____ > > oneSearch: Finally, mobile search > > that gives answers, not web links. > > > http://mobile./mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC > > > Hello Petra, > From my training and studies so far (yes i am the > novice who wrote > " struggles " ) it would seem to me that acupuncture is > definitely of > benefit to her as could herbs be. It seems that > waiting for test > results is good, but i agree, clearing heat and > toxins would do her > well. > Is it not right to treat what you see? Let's not > forget the > holistic/homeostatic tendency shown in acupuncture. > best wishes for you and your patient.Dan > > ______________________________\ ____ Don't let your dream ride pass you by. Make it a reality with Autos. http://autos./index.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 Yes, this is everything that I have learned. That actually the estrogenic compounds in dang gui actually fill the receptor sites with non cancer friendly estrogen therefore blocking the cancer causing types. --- Emily Konstan <emilylists wrote: > I do not treat cancer, so I can't share personal > experience. However, I was at a talk by a Honso > (traditional Kampo herbs) representative who > mentioned that Shi Quan Da Bu Tang (Juzen-taiho-to > in Japanese) had actually been shown to have an > inhibitory effect on cancer growth. How > interesting, since it contains herbs like Dang Gui, > and is a tonifying formula! > > I'm not sure if this is the study he was > referencing, but I found this link of a study > related to endometrial cancer: > http://carcin.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/22/4/587 > > One of the conclusions is: " These results suggest > that Juzen-taiho-to has an anti-carcinogenic effect, > possibly via suppression of estrogen-related > events. " > > > > Chinese Medicine > petrabuchanan > Wed, 3 Oct 2007 23:44:43 +0000 > Cancer/especially of the breast > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear group I would really like your > input, especially from anyone > > specializing in Oncology. I run a low cost public > clinic with two > > other pracitioners, and one of the patients who has > been coming in for > > a while has just been diagnosed with breast cancer > and really wants to > > save her breasts, which sincer her mother and sister > have already had > > it I have advised against. It is localized in the > ducts. She first > > became aware of swelling and bleeding from her > nipple quite a while > > ago, but due to insurance reasons waited to see a > western docter until > > about 3 weeks ago. Apparently the oncologists are > stumped at what kind > > of cancer, she is waiting for more test results. The > cancer has not > > moved outside of the ducts.Except she has just had > squamous cell > > carconoma crop and have removed in the last two > weeks. My question is > > related to herbs I have been discussing it with my > co-worker which has > > left me more at a loss. She wants to not proscribe > anything to be safe > > becouse she is worried about the cancer spreading > from moving herbs or > > estragenic herbs. I am thinking wouldn't it be > advisable to at least > > clear some heat and toxins to slow things down. I > have Li peiwens > > book, in addition to reading many other articles, > and advice from some > > of you that although some herbs are estrogenic it is > a completely > > different type of estrogen that does not promote > cancer. So this other > > acupuncturist is completely against using any dang > gui, huang qi, and > > many other herbs that are in traditional anti-cancer > formulas, even > > ones promoted in Bob Flaws article Chinese herbal > medicine and > > estrogen-dependent tumors. She is claiming that all > of that info is > > outdated and one must proscribe to the Chen and Chen > book. It is over > > two thousand years worth of study, could it be > complete bs and what > > about all of the previous cancer patients helped by > these formulas. I > > am feeling very conflicted and would love some > input. Thank you, Petra > > Buchanan. As it stands we are just doing acupuncture > and not > > proscribing herbs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________ > Boo! Scare away worms, viruses and so much more! Try > Windows Live OneCare! > http://onecare.live.com/standard/en-us/purchase/trial.aspx?s_cid=wl_hotmailnews > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > ______________________________\ ____ Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? Preview the hottest shows on TV. http://tv./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 I feel for your situation. One might say that if you are so overwhelmed then pass the case on to someone who is less so. If cost is an issue for your patient then I'm sure your patient can be taken in by an interested practitioner for below normal cost. ( you mentioned the low cost aspect) Remind the patient that their life is at stake. If that is not possible because of your location then you owe to get Tai Lanhans new book on Cancer from Livingston Churchill. This is not the type of book where you just look up a formula from the index. It is very comprehensive and will take you several weeks just to read. I've treated a number of breast cancer patients and some sort of Western intervention has always been involved in successful cases. Sorry to say, but those went without, we can only prolong their lives a few years beyond the normal prognosis. That is not to say that it can't be done but I haven't seen it. If she is worried about masectomy then the first thing to do is point her to a support group to overcome her fears. I'm not a big fan of Chen and Chen as much of their research, if you look at the notes, come from the 1980's in China. Not a high point of CM research. They may have other more current relevant research. As to moving herbs, this is a much more complex issue than your colleague suggests. I would say that if you go ahead with this case then follow your gut and diagnostic skills on the toxic heat part and try not to get too wrapped up in the Western aspect. That being said you probably want to avoid Dang Gui just to avoid having to justified it to so many people. I spent a few weeks in an oncology department in Beijing, observing and writing down formulas of that the patients that came in. I saw both Dang Gui and Huang Qi were used in breast cancer cases but not that much. (more Huang qi in the lung cancer cases). Your email gave me a reason to look at my notes again. One interesting quote in my notes was from a doctor who said " it has gotten so much better it probably wasn't cancer. " This for a woman who had swelling in both breasts but only had one operated on. The quote was for the other breast where the swelling had gone down. I realize I am giving you mixed signals here. (And I'm sure others will object.) At some point you have to plunge ahead and overcome your fears. That may mean referring to someone else or simply explain to the patient your limitations so they will find someone else or it may mean going ahead to treat this person. Chinese Medicine , " petrabuchanan " <petrabuchanan wrote: > > Dear group I would really like your input, especially from anyone > specializing in Oncology. I run a low cost public clinic with two > other pracitioners, and one of the patients who has been coming in for > a while has just been diagnosed with breast cancer and really wants to > save her breasts, which sincer her mother and sister have already had > it I have advised against. It is localized in the ducts. She first > became aware of swelling and bleeding from her nipple quite a while > ago, but due to insurance reasons waited to see a western docter until > about 3 weeks ago. Apparently the oncologists are stumped at what kind > of cancer, she is waiting for more test results. The cancer has not > moved outside of the ducts.Except she has just had squamous cell > carconoma crop and have removed in the last two weeks. My question is > related to herbs I have been discussing it with my co-worker which has > left me more at a loss. She wants to not proscribe anything to be safe > becouse she is worried about the cancer spreading from moving herbs or > estragenic herbs. I am thinking wouldn't it be advisable to at least > clear some heat and toxins to slow things down. I have Li peiwens > book, in addition to reading many other articles, and advice from some > of you that although some herbs are estrogenic it is a completely > different type of estrogen that does not promote cancer. So this other > acupuncturist is completely against using any dang gui, huang qi, and > many other herbs that are in traditional anti-cancer formulas, even > ones promoted in Bob Flaws article Chinese herbal medicine and > estrogen-dependent tumors. She is claiming that all of that info is > outdated and one must proscribe to the Chen and Chen book. It is over > two thousand years worth of study, could it be complete bs and what > about all of the previous cancer patients helped by these formulas. I > am feeling very conflicted and would love some input. Thank you, Petra > Buchanan. As it stands we are just doing acupuncture and not > proscribing herbs. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 The reason that I have stayed away from cancer patients is simply that " There are many many factors that contribute to a person getting cancer. " Many of these factors are out of my control and some of these factors are not physical but rather mental and in some cases even spiritual. If you look at people that have made complete recovery from cancer, many of them have often made drastic changes in their lives. I am not talking about simply quitting smoking or staying away from fatty foods and such, but truly magnificent changes regarding their outlook on life, their own character, their relationships, work, everything. I am afraid to said that these changes cannot be brought to them via needles and herbs, it is well beyond a doctor's powers. Since I have come to this conclusion I have stayed away from treating cancer patients. I only give them advice on the possible changes they must make in their lives that will give them a decent chance for full recovery and only those that " gets it " and makes that leap of faith, so to speak, then I can aid them with tools of CM to help them succeed. Otherwise, it is perhaps better to sway them to the direction of Western Medicine as they are more skilled in keeping a person technically alive, albeit sick and often times extremely uncomfortable. From my observation of people with breast cancer, there is a strong connection with anger. It is not just typical anger, but rather suppressed anger that results from her spouse. People that are angered easily and often expressing anger will have damage in their liver. If that angered is suppressed, then the damage will be in their stomach, often causing stomach ulcers. In the case of a woman, if the anger is coming someone that she has a love relationship with, then it may result in breast cancer. Coincidentally (Perhaps not a coincidence), the stomach meridian actually runs through both nipples, which may explain the relationship between the illnesses sharing similar causes. In short, it is likely that she is unhappy with her husband/boyfriend, yet her other half is the dominant one in the relationship, forcing her to suppress such anger. If this is the case, then my advice would simply be to resolve this issue with her husband/boyfriend, and then the healing process can begin. Again, these are my own observations, it is perhaps much different from some of the concepts that people are used to. Good Luck Gary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 Nice post, Douglas. Anne -------------- Original message ---------------------- " " > I feel for your situation. One might say that if you are so overwhelmed then > pass the case > on to someone who is less so. If cost is an issue for your patient then I'm sure > your patient > can be taken in by an interested practitioner for below normal cost. ( you > mentioned the > low cost aspect) Remind the patient that their life is at stake. If that is not > possible > because of your location then you owe to get Tai Lanhans new book on Cancer from > Livingston Churchill. This is not the type of book where you just look up a > formula from > the index. It is very comprehensive and will take you several weeks just to > read. > I've treated a number of breast cancer patients and some sort of Western > intervention has > always been involved in successful cases. Sorry to say, but those went without, > we can > only prolong their lives a few years beyond the normal prognosis. That is not to > say that it > can't be done but I haven't seen it. > If she is worried about masectomy then the first thing to do is point her to a > support group > to overcome her fears. > I'm not a big fan of Chen and Chen as much of their research, if you look at the > notes, > come from the 1980's in China. Not a high point of CM research. They may have > other > more current relevant research. As to moving herbs, this is a much more complex > issue > than your colleague suggests. > I would say that if you go ahead with this case then follow your gut and > diagnostic skills > on the toxic heat part and try not to get too wrapped up in the Western aspect. > That being > said you probably want to avoid Dang Gui just to avoid having to justified it to > so many > people. > I spent a few weeks in an oncology department in Beijing, observing and writing > down > formulas of that the patients that came in. I saw both Dang Gui and Huang Qi > were used in > breast cancer cases but not that much. (more Huang qi in the lung cancer cases). > Your > email gave me a reason to look at my notes again. One interesting quote in my > notes was > from a doctor who said " it has gotten so much better it probably wasn't cancer. " > This for a > woman who had swelling in both breasts but only had one operated on. The quote > was for > the other breast where the swelling had gone down. > I realize I am giving you mixed signals here. (And I'm sure others will object.) > At some > point you have to plunge ahead and overcome your fears. That may mean referring > to > someone else or simply explain to the patient your limitations so they will find > someone > else or it may mean going ahead to treat this person. > > > Chinese Medicine , " petrabuchanan " > <petrabuchanan wrote: > > > > Dear group I would really like your input, especially from anyone > > specializing in Oncology. I run a low cost public clinic with two > > other pracitioners, and one of the patients who has been coming in for > > a while has just been diagnosed with breast cancer and really wants to > > save her breasts, which sincer her mother and sister have already had > > it I have advised against. It is localized in the ducts. She first > > became aware of swelling and bleeding from her nipple quite a while > > ago, but due to insurance reasons waited to see a western docter until > > about 3 weeks ago. Apparently the oncologists are stumped at what kind > > of cancer, she is waiting for more test results. The cancer has not > > moved outside of the ducts.Except she has just had squamous cell > > carconoma crop and have removed in the last two weeks. My question is > > related to herbs I have been discussing it with my co-worker which has > > left me more at a loss. She wants to not proscribe anything to be safe > > becouse she is worried about the cancer spreading from moving herbs or > > estragenic herbs. I am thinking wouldn't it be advisable to at least > > clear some heat and toxins to slow things down. I have Li peiwens > > book, in addition to reading many other articles, and advice from some > > of you that although some herbs are estrogenic it is a completely > > different type of estrogen that does not promote cancer. So this other > > acupuncturist is completely against using any dang gui, huang qi, and > > many other herbs that are in traditional anti-cancer formulas, even > > ones promoted in Bob Flaws article Chinese herbal medicine and > > estrogen-dependent tumors. She is claiming that all of that info is > > outdated and one must proscribe to the Chen and Chen book. It is over > > two thousand years worth of study, could it be complete bs and what > > about all of the previous cancer patients helped by these formulas. I > > am feeling very conflicted and would love some input. Thank you, Petra > > Buchanan. As it stands we are just doing acupuncture and not > > proscribing herbs. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 Perfect Nam. You hit the nail on the head. Same principle with the coconut (oil, cream, juice,whole, whatever) We all know this in the Orient: > tonifies yin & yang > balance the endocrine > strengthen the immune system, & more > then, when all the above are in harmony.... > it can then be said to have antibacterial, antiviral,antifungal, antiprotozoal properties. *note* microorganisms not found, because has no bussiness being there; not needed whatsoever. Now, ask for data / statistic. The answer will be: Look into the culture. It's readable in their bodies.That's where the research is printed. Take care. amy ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 There is no doubt in my mind that TCM is effective at helping with cancer. I think many practitioners shy away from treating it, and are trained not to treat it, because of liability reasons. I think that as long as the patient is being treated in conjunction with an MD/western cancer center that it is better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 Thank you so much for your input. I Have thought of suggesting she find a specialist. Apparently her brother got her into a famouse cancer clinic I think in Texas, name starts with an M. I sure one of you knows what I am talking about. So I was thinking there may be someone in that area with much more experience than I. I will buy the book. I have already talked to the patient about my limitations and am giving her as much info as possible, including the numbers of other women who have had breast cancer and someone who specializes in counseling women with breast cancer. --- anne.crowley wrote: > Nice post, Douglas. > > Anne > -------------- Original message > ---------------------- > " " > > I feel for your situation. One might say that if > you are so overwhelmed then > > pass the case > > on to someone who is less so. If cost is an issue > for your patient then I'm sure > > your patient > > can be taken in by an interested practitioner for > below normal cost. ( you > > mentioned the > > low cost aspect) Remind the patient that their > life is at stake. If that is not > > possible > > because of your location then you owe to get Tai > Lanhans new book on Cancer from > > Livingston Churchill. This is not the type of book > where you just look up a > > formula from > > the index. It is very comprehensive and will take > you several weeks just to > > read. > > I've treated a number of breast cancer patients > and some sort of Western > > intervention has > > always been involved in successful cases. Sorry to > say, but those went without, > > we can > > only prolong their lives a few years beyond the > normal prognosis. That is not to > > say that it > > can't be done but I haven't seen it. > > If she is worried about masectomy then the first > thing to do is point her to a > > support group > > to overcome her fears. > > I'm not a big fan of Chen and Chen as much of > their research, if you look at the > > notes, > > come from the 1980's in China. Not a high point of > CM research. They may have > > other > > more current relevant research. As to moving > herbs, this is a much more complex > > issue > > than your colleague suggests. > > I would say that if you go ahead with this case > then follow your gut and > > diagnostic skills > > on the toxic heat part and try not to get too > wrapped up in the Western aspect. > > That being > > said you probably want to avoid Dang Gui just to > avoid having to justified it to > > so many > > people. > > I spent a few weeks in an oncology department in > Beijing, observing and writing > > down > > formulas of that the patients that came in. I saw > both Dang Gui and Huang Qi > > were used in > > breast cancer cases but not that much. (more Huang > qi in the lung cancer cases). > > Your > > email gave me a reason to look at my notes again. > One interesting quote in my > > notes was > > from a doctor who said " it has gotten so much > better it probably wasn't cancer. " > > This for a > > woman who had swelling in both breasts but only > had one operated on. The quote > > was for > > the other breast where the swelling had gone down. > > I realize I am giving you mixed signals here. (And > I'm sure others will object.) > > At some > > point you have to plunge ahead and overcome your > fears. That may mean referring > > to > > someone else or simply explain to the patient your > limitations so they will find > > someone > > else or it may mean going ahead to treat this > person. > > > > > > --- In > Chinese Medicine , > " petrabuchanan " > > <petrabuchanan wrote: > > > > > > Dear group I would really like your input, > especially from anyone > > > specializing in Oncology. I run a low cost > public clinic with two > > > other pracitioners, and one of the patients who > has been coming in for > > > a while has just been diagnosed with breast > cancer and really wants to > > > save her breasts, which sincer her mother and > sister have already had > > > it I have advised against. It is localized in > the ducts. She first > > > became aware of swelling and bleeding from her > nipple quite a while > > > ago, but due to insurance reasons waited to see > a western docter until > > > about 3 weeks ago. Apparently the oncologists > are stumped at what kind > > > of cancer, she is waiting for more test results. > The cancer has not > > > moved outside of the ducts.Except she has just > had squamous cell > > > carconoma crop and have removed in the last two > weeks. My question is > > > related to herbs I have been discussing it with > my co-worker which has > > > left me more at a loss. She wants to not > proscribe anything to be safe > > > becouse she is worried about the cancer > spreading from moving herbs or > > > estragenic herbs. I am thinking wouldn't it be > advisable to at least > > > clear some heat and toxins to slow things down. > I have Li peiwens > > > book, in addition to reading many other > articles, and advice from some > > > of you that although some herbs are estrogenic > it is a completely > > > different type of estrogen that does not promote > cancer. So this other > > > acupuncturist is completely against using any > dang gui, huang qi, and > > > many other herbs that are in traditional > anti-cancer formulas, even > > > ones promoted in Bob Flaws article Chinese > herbal medicine and > > > estrogen-dependent tumors. She is claiming that > all of that info is > > > outdated and one must proscribe to the Chen and > Chen book. It is over > > > two thousand years worth of study, could it be > complete bs and what > > > about all of the previous cancer patients helped > by these formulas. I > > > am feeling very conflicted and would love some > input. Thank you, Petra > > > Buchanan. As it stands we are just doing > acupuncture and not > > > proscribing herbs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > ______________________________\ ____ Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with FareChase. http://farechase./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 -Does anyone know where to purchase this book? I have looked online with no results.-- In Chinese Medicine , " " wrote: > > I feel for your situation. One might say that if you are so overwhelmed then pass the case > on to someone who is less so. If cost is an issue for your patient then I'm sure your patient > can be taken in by an interested practitioner for below normal cost. ( you mentioned the > low cost aspect) Remind the patient that their life is at stake. If that is not possible > because of your location then you owe to get Tai Lanhans new book on Cancer from > Livingston Churchill. This is not the type of book where you just look up a formula from > the index. It is very comprehensive and will take you several weeks just to read. > I've treated a number of breast cancer patients and some sort of Western intervention has > always been involved in successful cases. Sorry to say, but those went without, we can > only prolong their lives a few years beyond the normal prognosis. That is not to say that it > can't be done but I haven't seen it. > If she is worried about masectomy then the first thing to do is point her to a support group > to overcome her fears. > I'm not a big fan of Chen and Chen as much of their research, if you look at the notes, > come from the 1980's in China. Not a high point of CM research. They may have other > more current relevant research. As to moving herbs, this is a much more complex issue > than your colleague suggests. > I would say that if you go ahead with this case then follow your gut and diagnostic skills > on the toxic heat part and try not to get too wrapped up in the Western aspect. That being > said you probably want to avoid Dang Gui just to avoid having to justified it to so many > people. > I spent a few weeks in an oncology department in Beijing, observing and writing down > formulas of that the patients that came in. I saw both Dang Gui and Huang Qi were used in > breast cancer cases but not that much. (more Huang qi in the lung cancer cases). Your > email gave me a reason to look at my notes again. One interesting quote in my notes was > from a doctor who said " it has gotten so much better it probably wasn't cancer. " This for a > woman who had swelling in both breasts but only had one operated on. The quote was for > the other breast where the swelling had gone down. > I realize I am giving you mixed signals here. (And I'm sure others will object.) At some > point you have to plunge ahead and overcome your fears. That may mean referring to > someone else or simply explain to the patient your limitations so they will find someone > else or it may mean going ahead to treat this person. > > > Chinese Medicine , " petrabuchanan " > <petrabuchanan@> wrote: > > > > Dear group I would really like your input, especially from anyone > > specializing in Oncology. I run a low cost public clinic with two > > other pracitioners, and one of the patients who has been coming in for > > a while has just been diagnosed with breast cancer and really wants to > > save her breasts, which sincer her mother and sister have already had > > it I have advised against. It is localized in the ducts. She first > > became aware of swelling and bleeding from her nipple quite a while > > ago, but due to insurance reasons waited to see a western docter until > > about 3 weeks ago. Apparently the oncologists are stumped at what kind > > of cancer, she is waiting for more test results. The cancer has not > > moved outside of the ducts.Except she has just had squamous cell > > carconoma crop and have removed in the last two weeks. My question is > > related to herbs I have been discussing it with my co-worker which has > > left me more at a loss. She wants to not proscribe anything to be safe > > becouse she is worried about the cancer spreading from moving herbs or > > estragenic herbs. I am thinking wouldn't it be advisable to at least > > clear some heat and toxins to slow things down. I have Li peiwens > > book, in addition to reading many other articles, and advice from some > > of you that although some herbs are estrogenic it is a completely > > different type of estrogen that does not promote cancer. So this other > > acupuncturist is completely against using any dang gui, huang qi, and > > many other herbs that are in traditional anti-cancer formulas, even > > ones promoted in Bob Flaws article Chinese herbal medicine and > > estrogen-dependent tumors. She is claiming that all of that info is > > outdated and one must proscribe to the Chen and Chen book. It is over > > two thousand years worth of study, could it be complete bs and what > > about all of the previous cancer patients helped by these formulas. I > > am feeling very conflicted and would love some input. Thank you, Petra > > Buchanan. As it stands we are just doing acupuncture and not > > proscribing herbs. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 Dear Colleagues, In case of greast cancer, First we should find the cause of Cancer of the breast. Most of the cause come from the estrogen, progesterone deficiency ( from MD encrinologist )? But the root of any cancer is the problem of RNA and DNA ( at the microstructure where it begins ). If we base on this, then in our TCM, it must be in the Kidney system ( Yin-Yang, prenatal Qi ). Yin-Yang is the root of all problems, the basic of life and its base is at the kidney, the form of life and all activities, and also the changes of our physical body. THe DNA and RNA are continuous active or in full function. If we only look at the breasts, then we will only see the fruit of the tree. Is that true any cancer come from the immunity system disorder, or from T4 , T5 , or lymphocytopenia ??? But all of these are root at Kid ( in the form of marrow ). NO matter how we look or at what angle, it is still emerged from Yin-Yang disorders or in my term, the Qi disorder. Why do we have Qi disorder? or why do we have the yin-Yang imbalance or disorder? The environment, chemical, lifestyles, food and drink, mentalitity, the pressure of the environment ( free radical ... ) I think most of the problem is the chemical reaction in the body ( Ph ... and other factors ). However, all life in our bodies and in nature are in forms of all chemical reactions. They are either in form of solid, liquid or in gas. The major constitution of these reactions in our body will finally take place in Kidney system ( Yin-Yang, prenatal Qi , the adrenal cortex and adrenal medulla ) THE REASON I POINT OUT !!!! AT ITS ROOT. Why should some of us TCM ignore the tonification of Kidney, regulation and activation???????????????????????? If the kidney system is not working properly, then all problems can be existed........... We can name it. In this case, I think for all cancer patient, we should choose some of the king herbs ( Fu Zi, Rou Gui, Zi He CHe, Dng CHong Xia Cao ... for Kid Yang ) and some with Kid Yin ( He Shu Wu, Shu Di or Sheng Di, Bai Shao... ). Why are we afraid of Qi. Blood tonification ???? They are helping us to strengthen our bodies and to fight the pathogens. They also help us to regulate all the chemical reactions in the body. Of course , we may co-operate with MDs to remove the stagnant ( benign or malignant ) materials, but who knows that our energies can destroy them and excrete them. What can destroy masses and move them in the body ? something that tastes bitter ( the fire element ), and also the salty can dissolve the masses ( the Kid-water element ) also excrete them in the lower orifices!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am running out of time. I must go now............ I hope all of us will take a closer look at this point ( Yin-Yang ) and develop further... Thanks for the topic, Nam Nguyen GOOD LUCK TO ALL !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 I am very interested in what you are saying. That is a lot of what we have been talking about and what I have read, is that you can only get cancer with a weakened immune system. What about the herbs tonifying the immune system as well? --- dr_namnguyen58 <dr_namnguyen58 wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > In case of greast cancer, > First we should find the cause of Cancer of the > breast. Most of the > cause come from the estrogen, progesterone > deficiency ( from MD > encrinologist )? But the root of any cancer is the > problem of RNA and > DNA ( at the microstructure where it begins ). If we > base on this, > then in our TCM, it must be in the Kidney system ( > Yin-Yang, prenatal > Qi ). > Yin-Yang is the root of all problems, the basic of > life and its base > is at the kidney, the form of life and all > activities, and also the > changes of our physical body. THe DNA and RNA are > continuous active or > in full function. > If we only look at the breasts, then we will only > see the fruit of > the tree. > Is that true any cancer come from the immunity > system disorder, or > from T4 , T5 , or lymphocytopenia ??? But all of > these are root at Kid > ( in the form of marrow ). NO matter how we look or > at what angle, it > is still emerged from Yin-Yang disorders or in my > term, the Qi disorder. > Why do we have Qi disorder? or why do we have the > yin-Yang imbalance > or disorder? The environment, chemical, lifestyles, > food and drink, > mentalitity, the pressure of the environment ( free > radical ... ) > I think most of the problem is the chemical > reaction in the body ( > Ph ... and other factors ). However, all life in our > bodies and in > nature are in forms of all chemical reactions. They > are either in form > of solid, liquid or in gas. The major constitution > of these reactions > in our body will finally take place in Kidney system > ( Yin-Yang, > prenatal Qi , the adrenal cortex and adrenal medulla > ) > THE REASON I POINT OUT !!!! AT ITS ROOT. > Why should some of us TCM ignore the tonification > of Kidney, > regulation and activation???????????????????????? > If the kidney system is not working properly, then > all problems can > be existed........... We can name it. In this case, > I think for all > cancer patient, we should choose some of the king > herbs ( Fu Zi, Rou > Gui, Zi He CHe, Dng CHong Xia Cao ... for Kid Yang ) > and some with Kid > Yin ( He Shu Wu, Shu Di or Sheng Di, Bai Shao... ). > Why are we afraid > of Qi. Blood tonification ???? They are helping us > to strengthen our > bodies and to fight the pathogens. They also help us > to regulate all > the chemical reactions in the body. > Of course , we may co-operate with MDs to remove > the stagnant ( > benign or malignant ) materials, but who knows that > our energies can > destroy them and excrete them. > What can destroy masses and move them in the body > ? something that > tastes bitter ( the fire element ), and also the > salty can dissolve > the masses ( the Kid-water element ) also excrete > them in the lower > orifices!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > I am running out of time. I must go > now............ I hope all of us > will take a closer look at this point ( Yin-Yang ) > and develop further... > > > Thanks for the topic, > > Nam Nguyen > > GOOD LUCK TO ALL !!! > > > ______________________________\ ____ Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join 's user panel and lay it on us. http://surveylink./gmrs/_panel_invite.asp?a=7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 When I was a student, one of the teacher's assistants, who later became a teacher, told me that she herself had cleared herself of breast cancer by using acupuncture, and " lots of moxa on ST-36 " . I don't know whether she also used herbs. She did not use Western medical treatment at all. shamanist1 <shamanist1 wrote: There is no doubt in my mind that TCM is effective at helping with cancer. I think many practitioners shy away from treating it, and are trained not to treat it, because of liability reasons. I think that as long as the patient is being treated in conjunction with an MD/western cancer center that it is better. Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia and adjust accordingly. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 Good Morning, This topic has taken a really interesting turn and now seems to be on track. Medical science has done amazing things for all humanity with its teachings of chemistry and so on, and it has caused some disasters too. Let's not forget the capabilities of TCM and its practitioners through the ages though, and our own reasons for practicing it. More and more people are combining the two schools both here and in China to great success, however it takes a wonderful mind to do so with great skill. It is very easy to become confused over which school to use and what parts of each to use, when. We all have had huge success using only TCM knowledge/skills in many cases, for all kinds of dis-eases. Why not cancer too? We all get nervous when we fear death and severe illness can be the outcome for our patients but maybe we can over come rather than let only our trusted friends/enemies, the MD's deal with it. As Nam said in his post, know your medicine and then put in the TCM ball park and treat. It works! We have the luxury of standing on the shoulders of the giants who have gone before us. All the greats accomplished amazing things with only TCM knowledge. Imagine what they could do now with what we have. Caner is serious, medicine is serious. If fear is involved i don't feel it is ours to have. A patient understandably may have some fear but lets not give them reason to despair as well. I say treat, alongside an MD and treat what you see! Ultimately the choice is the patients and We all know disease comes from bad or weak Qi. I know the last MD's office i went was not full of " good " Qi. Much love though to you and your patient, best of luck. Dan & #22825; & #22320; & #22312; & #20154; & #29702; & #20250; & #21512; & #12290; Chinese Medicine , Andrea Beth Damsky < wrote: > > When I was a student, one of the teacher's assistants, who later became a teacher, told me that she herself had cleared herself of breast cancer by using acupuncture, and " lots of moxa on ST-36 " . I don't know whether she also used herbs. She did not use Western medical treatment at all. > > > > shamanist1 <shamanist1 wrote: There is no doubt in my mind that TCM is effective at helping with > cancer. I think many practitioners shy away from treating it, and are > trained not to treat it, because of liability reasons. I think that as > long as the patient is being treated in conjunction with an MD/western > cancer center that it is better. > > > > Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia > > and adjust accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 Maryland acupuncture society has a ten cd set of Jeffrey yuen on cancer, also jerry alan johnson has a breast cancer qigong routine on dvd- you might look into both- 'tonifying the immune system' is not a treatment principle in TCM, you cant go randomly using tonics...what is the chinese medical diagnosis? is it fire toxin? is from one of the seven injuries? specifically emotions? is an external cause- poisoning? you need to get a clear diagnosis or at least a start, in order to decide how to treat this person, as an individual not a disease. best of luck, David Appleton L.Ac. --- Petra Buchanan <petrabuchanan wrote: > I am very interested in what you are saying. That is > a > lot of what we have been talking about and what I > have > read, is that you can only get cancer with a > weakened > immune system. What about the herbs tonifying the > immune system as well? > --- dr_namnguyen58 <dr_namnguyen58 wrote: > > > Dear Colleagues, > > In case of greast cancer, > > First we should find the cause of Cancer of the > > breast. Most of the > > cause come from the estrogen, progesterone > > deficiency ( from MD > > encrinologist )? But the root of any cancer is the > > problem of RNA and > > DNA ( at the microstructure where it begins ). If > we > > base on this, > > then in our TCM, it must be in the Kidney system ( > > Yin-Yang, prenatal > > Qi ). > > Yin-Yang is the root of all problems, the basic > of > > life and its base > > is at the kidney, the form of life and all > > activities, and also the > > changes of our physical body. THe DNA and RNA are > > continuous active or > > in full function. > > If we only look at the breasts, then we will > only > > see the fruit of > > the tree. > > Is that true any cancer come from the immunity > > system disorder, or > > from T4 , T5 , or lymphocytopenia ??? But all of > > these are root at Kid > > ( in the form of marrow ). NO matter how we look > or > > at what angle, it > > is still emerged from Yin-Yang disorders or in my > > term, the Qi disorder. > > Why do we have Qi disorder? or why do we have > the > > yin-Yang imbalance > > or disorder? The environment, chemical, > lifestyles, > > food and drink, > > mentalitity, the pressure of the environment ( > free > > radical ... ) > > I think most of the problem is the chemical > > reaction in the body ( > > Ph ... and other factors ). However, all life in > our > > bodies and in > > nature are in forms of all chemical reactions. > They > > are either in form > > of solid, liquid or in gas. The major constitution > > of these reactions > > in our body will finally take place in Kidney > system > > ( Yin-Yang, > > prenatal Qi , the adrenal cortex and adrenal > medulla > > ) > > THE REASON I POINT OUT !!!! AT ITS ROOT. > > Why should some of us TCM ignore the > tonification > > of Kidney, > > regulation and activation???????????????????????? > > If the kidney system is not working properly, > then > > all problems can > > be existed........... We can name it. In this > case, > > I think for all > > cancer patient, we should choose some of the king > > herbs ( Fu Zi, Rou > > Gui, Zi He CHe, Dng CHong Xia Cao ... for Kid Yang > ) > > and some with Kid > > Yin ( He Shu Wu, Shu Di or Sheng Di, Bai Shao... > ). > > Why are we afraid > > of Qi. Blood tonification ???? They are helping us > > to strengthen our > > bodies and to fight the pathogens. They also help > us > > to regulate all > > the chemical reactions in the body. > > Of course , we may co-operate with MDs to remove > > the stagnant ( > > benign or malignant ) materials, but who knows > that > > our energies can > > destroy them and excrete them. > > What can destroy masses and move them in the > body > > ? something that > > tastes bitter ( the fire element ), and also the > > salty can dissolve > > the masses ( the Kid-water element ) also excrete > > them in the lower > > orifices!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > > I am running out of time. I must go > > now............ I hope all of us > > will take a closer look at this point ( Yin-Yang ) > > and develop further... > > > > > > Thanks for the topic, > > > > Nam Nguyen > > > > GOOD LUCK TO ALL !!! > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________\ ____ > Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. > Join 's user panel and lay it on us. > http://surveylink./gmrs/_panel_invite.asp?a=7 > > > ______________________________\ ____ Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Travel. http://travel./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 5, 2007 Report Share Posted October 5, 2007 David, CANCER RELATES TO FIRE & TOXIN ???????? If we think this is the only cause, please focus on them. Fire toxin may be one of the cause of cancer, but that is not the only cause. It may be the symptoms, not the syndrome nor the root. Let's look at fire toxin. In case if I leave out something, please fill in my omission. If one says it is the fire toxin, please indicate all the fire and toxin symptoms or syndrome. Fire means heat and dryness, but that is not all. Fire has the property of burning, destroying, ruining everything from the internal dryness to the superficial layers withering ( dryskin, mouth, lips, tongue. These dryness must be accompany with heat, otherwise, its indicate only of fluid or blood deficiency ). Moreover, fire does not last long. It will run out of gas ( fuel ) and comes to an end very soon by itself. Where does the fire get all the fuel and continue to burn or destroy our tissue for a long long time? Does it mean to us if there is no supply of fuel, no more fire and no more toxin and we are out of danger ( the cancer )? I do not think so. Look at the cancer cells! the dead cells metasize ( actually they are not dead. They are very robust and harmful ). The malignant cells spread to neighboring tissues. They are spreading, not dead!!! They are fully active and very aggressive. Chemotherapy are using to destroying them and surgery are used to remove them. Firetoxin application in TCM I think are resemblance to chemo, aimming at the fruit of the tree, not at root. Fire element reveals flooding pulse which is blood is full and is steaming up, it seems like the water boiling in a pot " bubbling up " . If water is extremely low with big flame, we may hear some noises and a lot of smoke ( bad breath...)....... So in which condition are we talking about???? Excess fire with full of blood or deficiency of blood or body fluid? Do all cancer patients have these types of pulses and symptoms??? May be not ! Toxin means harmful and dead tissues existed ( dead tissues cause odorous ). Do we smell something out of a patient? ... What organ has been attacked by these toxin? Any manifestation???? If there is none ( no heat and harmful dead tissues ), we cannot blindly claim that it is firetoxin. This is a serious business. There are patients who claimed they feel cold all the times!!! This is contradict to fire-toxin. Beside, firetoxin are excess condition, not mention a deficiency condition......... Do patients have any signs of deficiency in cancer? If they do, why should we ignore those signs and focus on firetoxin??? What cause fire and toxin in the body? If Qi and blood are full and well in balance, where are those fire and toxin come from? If Yin-Yang is balanced and harmonized, where is the fire-toxin coming from? Tumor is either benign or malignant growth (swelling). The growth is growing and continues to grow. If the cells are growing must be well nourished. Fire-toxin, yin and yang mean nothing to me if they are outside and away from my body. All I care what is changing inside my body and I also care about why these toxin are generating inside of my body. Are these all in a disruption of Qi ? An imbalance of Yin-Yang ? A disharmony of Qi and Blood , a nourishment of my body ? Why can I get rid of malignant cells or fire-toxin ? Why ? WHy ? Why ? Can we dissolve them by liquid ? gas ? or smashing them by solid mechanism ? and then excrete them through the superficial layers or orifices or Do we have to absorb them and transform them into other forms of chemicals and eliminate them through other routes? What can destroy fire-toxin ? Is that water, cold herbs?........... No, no , no !!!!! I do not think so and I do not think any books of TCM will say so. But I think a full well nourishment of Qi and Blood " moving and nourishing " , a balance of Yin-Yang, a good mental attitude, good lifestyle, good moderate activities, and a good environment are all counted. In this case , we should look at all angles I believe. To have a full good life : good mentality, good nourishment, good environment, good lifestyle ( family, friendship ), good judgment... a basic of Yin-Yang....... THINK ABOUT QI ( a lifesource, without Qi there is no life eventhough there is no cancer ) Thanks to all, Nam Nguyen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 7, 2007 Report Share Posted October 7, 2007 I am sometimes amazed at some of what is taught in our profession, especially blanket statements such as these. Acupuncture can be a great help to cancer patients, and there is plenty of evidence to support that in Chinese medical literature.. . . On Oct 3, 2007, at 5:16 PM, Ron & Maria Kuriloff wrote: > I was taught that Acupuncture ishould never be used in cancer > treatment. > After western diagnosis, tests and western treatment Acupuncture > can be used > in the recovery process. > > I would not suggest/give herbs, she needs to see good western Dr. > > Maria Kuriloff > > _____ > > Chinese Medicine > Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of > petrabuchanan > Wednesday, October 03, 2007 7:45 PM > Chinese Medicine > Cancer/especially of the breast > > Dear group I would really like your input, especially from anyone > specializing in Oncology. I run a low cost public clinic with two > other pracitioners, and one of the patients who has been coming in for > a while has just been diagnosed with breast cancer and really wants to > save her breasts, which sincer her mother and sister have already had > it I have advised against. It is localized in the ducts. She first > became aware of swelling and bleeding from her nipple quite a while > ago, but due to insurance reasons waited to see a western docter until > about 3 weeks ago. Apparently the oncologists are stumped at what kind > of cancer, she is waiting for more test results. The cancer has not > moved outside of the ducts.Except she has just had squamous cell > carconoma crop and have removed in the last two weeks. My question is > related to herbs I have been discussing it with my co-worker which has > left me more at a loss. She wants to not proscribe anything to be safe > becouse she is worried about the cancer spreading from moving herbs or > estragenic herbs. I am thinking wouldn't it be advisable to at least > clear some heat and toxins to slow things down. I have Li peiwens > book, in addition to reading many other articles, and advice from some > of you that although some herbs are estrogenic it is a completely > different type of estrogen that does not promote cancer. So this other > acupuncturist is completely against using any dang gui, huang qi, and > many other herbs that are in traditional anti-cancer formulas, even > ones promoted in Bob Flaws article Chinese herbal medicine and > estrogen-dependent tumors. She is claiming that all of that info is > outdated and one must proscribe to the Chen and Chen book. It is over > two thousand years worth of study, could it be complete bs and what > about all of the previous cancer patients helped by these formulas. I > am feeling very conflicted and would love some input. Thank you, Petra > Buchanan. As it stands we are just doing acupuncture and not > proscribing herbs. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 7, 2007 Report Share Posted October 7, 2007 I'm seeing a little of both extremes in this thread. One extreme viewpoint is that acupuncture should never be used in cancer patients, which of course is not true. The other extreme involves speculating on how to treat cancer based on overly simplified TCM diagnosis, which can be dangerous to the welfare of the patient. There is plenty of good information on herbal therapies to support cancer patients during their western treatments, as well as herbs that help fight cancer. It's OK to experiment with self-limiting conditions, but not with cancer. Errors can be fatal. - Bill Chinese Medicine , " Z'ev Rosenberg " <zrosenbe wrote: > > I am sometimes amazed at some of what is taught in our profession, > especially blanket statements such as these. Acupuncture can be a > great help to cancer patients, and there is plenty of evidence to > support that in Chinese medical literature.. . . > > > > On Oct 3, 2007, at 5:16 PM, Ron & Maria Kuriloff wrote: > > > I was taught that Acupuncture ishould never be used in cancer > > treatment. > > After western diagnosis, tests and western treatment Acupuncture > > can be used > > in the recovery process. > > > > I would not suggest/give herbs, she needs to see good western Dr. > > > > Maria Kuriloff > > > > _____ > > > > Chinese Medicine > > Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of > > petrabuchanan > > Wednesday, October 03, 2007 7:45 PM > > Chinese Medicine > > Cancer/especially of the breast > > > > Dear group I would really like your input, especially from anyone > > specializing in Oncology. I run a low cost public clinic with two > > other pracitioners, and one of the patients who has been coming in for > > a while has just been diagnosed with breast cancer and really wants to > > save her breasts, which sincer her mother and sister have already had > > it I have advised against. It is localized in the ducts. She first > > became aware of swelling and bleeding from her nipple quite a while > > ago, but due to insurance reasons waited to see a western docter until > > about 3 weeks ago. Apparently the oncologists are stumped at what kind > > of cancer, she is waiting for more test results. The cancer has not > > moved outside of the ducts.Except she has just had squamous cell > > carconoma crop and have removed in the last two weeks. My question is > > related to herbs I have been discussing it with my co-worker which has > > left me more at a loss. She wants to not proscribe anything to be safe > > becouse she is worried about the cancer spreading from moving herbs or > > estragenic herbs. I am thinking wouldn't it be advisable to at least > > clear some heat and toxins to slow things down. I have Li peiwens > > book, in addition to reading many other articles, and advice from some > > of you that although some herbs are estrogenic it is a completely > > different type of estrogen that does not promote cancer. So this other > > acupuncturist is completely against using any dang gui, huang qi, and > > many other herbs that are in traditional anti-cancer formulas, even > > ones promoted in Bob Flaws article Chinese herbal medicine and > > estrogen-dependent tumors. She is claiming that all of that info is > > outdated and one must proscribe to the Chen and Chen book. It is over > > two thousand years worth of study, could it be complete bs and what > > about all of the previous cancer patients helped by these formulas. I > > am feeling very conflicted and would love some input. Thank you, Petra > > Buchanan. As it stands we are just doing acupuncture and not > > proscribing herbs. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 7, 2007 Report Share Posted October 7, 2007 I don't think I was being extreme, and I don't think you are necessarily pointing to my post. Of course, every situation in medicine has to be dealt with individually according to need, stage of disease, circumstance, severity, etc. That is all I am trying to say. But to completely dismiss a modality such as acupuncture from cancer treatment is a sad loss for patients who need all the help they can get. Sometimes acupuncture is appropriate, sometimes it is not. Oncology is a specialty in Chinese medicine, which means it requires specific training, diagnosis and treatment methods. On Oct 6, 2007, at 9:40 PM, Bill Schoenbart wrote: > I'm seeing a little of both extremes in this thread. One extreme > viewpoint is that acupuncture should never be used in cancer > patients, which of course is not true. The other extreme involves > speculating on how to treat cancer based on overly simplified TCM > diagnosis, which can be dangerous to the welfare of the patient. > There is plenty of good information on herbal therapies to support > cancer patients during their western treatments, as well as herbs > that help fight cancer. It's OK to experiment with self-limiting > conditions, but not with cancer. Errors can be fatal. > > - Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 7, 2007 Report Share Posted October 7, 2007 You were being reasonable, and I was speaking in support of your comments. My point was that in treating cancer, we should neither give up hope, nor should we randomly apply TCM theory with our fingers crossed. If we are going to treat cancer, we should thoroughly research current treatment methods and use what works. It is not a time for random experimentation. If a practitioner is not inclined to put in the research time, the patient should be referred. - Bill Chinese Medicine , " Z'ev Rosenberg " <zrosenbe wrote: > > I don't think I was being extreme, and I don't think you are > necessarily pointing to my post. Of course, every situation in > medicine has to be dealt with individually according to need, stage > of disease, circumstance, severity, etc. That is all I am trying to > say. But to completely dismiss a modality such as acupuncture from > cancer treatment is a sad loss for patients who need all the help > they can get. Sometimes acupuncture is appropriate, sometimes it is > not. Oncology is a specialty in Chinese medicine, which means it > requires specific training, diagnosis and treatment methods. > > > On Oct 6, 2007, at 9:40 PM, Bill Schoenbart wrote: > > > I'm seeing a little of both extremes in this thread. One extreme > > viewpoint is that acupuncture should never be used in cancer > > patients, which of course is not true. The other extreme involves > > speculating on how to treat cancer based on overly simplified TCM > > diagnosis, which can be dangerous to the welfare of the patient. > > There is plenty of good information on herbal therapies to support > > cancer patients during their western treatments, as well as herbs > > that help fight cancer. It's OK to experiment with self-limiting > > conditions, but not with cancer. Errors can be fatal. > > > > - Bill > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 7, 2007 Report Share Posted October 7, 2007 I really appreciate all of your input. At this time I have decided that I do not know enough about the treatment of cancer to treat such a difficult case, especially since my patient has been accepted to MD Anderson and is going to call the acupuncturist I was refered to down there. This experience has brought up many questions for me. I am definitely going to look into taking some courses on oncology or seeing if I could intern with someone who specializes in it. Thank you all. -- In Chinese Medicine , " Gary Wu " <mcmhealth wrote: > > The reason that I have stayed away from cancer patients is simply that > " There are many many factors that contribute to a person getting > cancer. " Many of these factors are out of my control and some of > these factors are not physical but rather mental and in some cases > even spiritual. If you look at people that have made complete > recovery from cancer, many of them have often made drastic changes in > their lives. I am not talking about simply quitting smoking or > staying away from fatty foods and such, but truly magnificent changes > regarding their outlook on life, their own character, their > relationships, work, everything. I am afraid to said that these > changes cannot be brought to them via needles and herbs, it is well > beyond a doctor's powers. Since I have come to this conclusion I have > stayed away from treating cancer patients. I only give them advice on > the possible changes they must make in their lives that will give them > a decent chance for full recovery and only those that " gets it " and > makes that leap of faith, so to speak, then I can aid them with tools > of CM to help them succeed. Otherwise, it is perhaps better to sway > them to the direction of Western Medicine as they are more skilled in > keeping a person technically alive, albeit sick and often times > extremely uncomfortable. > > From my observation of people with breast cancer, there is a strong > connection with anger. It is not just typical anger, but rather > suppressed anger that results from her spouse. People that are > angered easily and often expressing anger will have damage in their > liver. If that angered is suppressed, then the damage will be in > their stomach, often causing stomach ulcers. In the case of a woman, > if the anger is coming someone that she has a love relationship with, > then it may result in breast cancer. Coincidentally (Perhaps not a > coincidence), the stomach meridian actually runs through both nipples, > which may explain the relationship between the illnesses sharing > similar causes. > > In short, it is likely that she is unhappy with her husband/boyfriend, > yet her other half is the dominant one in the relationship, forcing > her to suppress such anger. If this is the case, then my advice would > simply be to resolve this issue with her husband/boyfriend, and then > the healing process can begin. > > Again, these are my own observations, it is perhaps much different > from some of the concepts that people are used to. > > Good Luck > > Gary > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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